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BJ68
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[*] posted on 2-1-2018 at 21:50


Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
oxalic acid (ok sure, it's poisonous, but so long as you don't go eating or snorting it it's really not a problem to handle it).


Sorry got something wrong....

Bj68

[Edited on 3-1-2018 by BJ68]
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[*] posted on 4-1-2018 at 19:02


Oxalic is a strange one, it isnt enforced currently, although it is reported and you do have to declare use. Oxalic acid is a double edge sword for the authorities. Its used a great deal in Bee keeping, there are few bee keepers considering the total number of hives.

So for those with a couple hundred hives some have thousands) 10% solution just isnt practical or economic to use, so if the government enforce it strongly, then the bees which are already in massive decline, will suffer even more.

So I think Oxalic acid is a bit of a stand off, at least where I am. I think its going to stay that way at least for this year and maybe next, Bees got hammered last year. I know one local keeper lost 120 out of 230 hives last year.

The wild hives we have in our wood have also decreased alot, so far I know of only one tree with live bees inside, its a real shame.
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[*] posted on 4-1-2018 at 20:07


I use oxalic acid (Bartender's Friend) almost daily to clean my sink and glass top stove. It's non-abrasive and an excellent cleaner. Why on earth would a country ban oxalic acid?



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[*] posted on 5-1-2018 at 01:44


Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
I use oxalic acid (Bartender's Friend) almost daily to clean my sink and glass top stove. It's non-abrasive and an excellent cleaner. Why on earth would a country ban oxalic acid?

I think its an EU directive, so not sure but i think the entire EU is affected, however as I pointed out you can still get it with little trouble. I havnt been able to find out for sure if its banned, or simply on the watch list...

The list of banned substances is a little confused at the moment, but for now they wont enforce it because apparently Bees are in really bad shape.
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[*] posted on 6-1-2018 at 06:48


I have been given information from someone who has actually been granted a license! I dont know many details yet, one thing that was mentioned however, leads me to believe the granting is fairly strict. I do not want to give alot of detail yet, I need a little time to get the facts from the person concerned.

Also it would do us no good if suddenly everyone applies for the license using the same reasons etc. This is the third one I am aware of and the first one not connected with a business. So this is good news!

A big thank you to the person who contacted me, once I have had a chance to talk them, and if they agree, then I will post more details.
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[*] posted on 8-1-2018 at 07:16


Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
Oxalic is a strange one, it isnt enforced currently, although it is reported and you do have to declare use. Oxalic acid is a double edge sword for the authorities.


I have purchased oxalic acid recently and never had to declare the use.
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[*] posted on 8-1-2018 at 21:35


Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
Oxalic is a strange one, it isnt enforced currently, although it is reported and you do have to declare use. Oxalic acid is a double edge sword for the authorities.


I have purchased oxalic acid recently and never had to declare the use.

Its currently easy to get, not 100% on sunshine date i need to check. But you can go look at the list yourself, its listed as a max of 10% solution only.

In reality I honestly think this is a blind eye one, the deaths were murders and it was a strange case itself. Considering its importance to bee health, i think you will be able to get this for a while yet. Be aware it is on the banned above 10% list without a license though..

In all honesty its the probaly the strangest chemical on the list.

This thread is about the law, not what you can get hold of, i know of two places still selling conc Nitric acid, this dosnt make it legal.
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[*] posted on 12-1-2018 at 09:54


Well had another visit.

This one not so good! The arrangement was for them to call me and arrange a day and time to come back. They just turned up, no expert with them. This time was slightly bizarre, the main policeman was one of the original ones, he had obviously been on google looking up the law.

First words out of his mouth were.............
Do you have Nitric Acid? Well yes obviously as it was on the list i gave him last time. He then asked if I had a EPP license, i replied NO.

All three stiffened and stepped forward a bit, so straightaway i said i dont need one. He asked why and i explained the Ltd company, this is where it gets really messy. He said my address is residential and therefore i couldnt have a business premise for chemicals.

Actually this isnt accurate for my address, it was a farm and then a dairy and then a workshop and so on. It also has a buildings a bit like a steding. These have running water and sewage and electric, they are also classed in part as commercial, this is because part of the Dairy used to be in one part of the building.

Apparently he is going to check this when he gets back, and also check to see if I have a change of use in place. I went and got the paperwork for the company and gave him both SIC numbers and the company reg number.

My original plan after the last visit was to have a solicitor with me when they came back, obviously i didnt have a chance to do that as they didnt call first. They asked to see my chemicals and storage. Right or wrong I declined this.

Originally i had offered to cooperate fully, this time felt different. I am sure this time wasnt intended as a friendly visit. He asked if I had Hydrogen peroxide, i said not at the moment. He asked how much i intended to keep in the future.

At that point i said i would cooperate once they had someone with them that was an expert and understood the law. I said i would supply a list once i had spoken with a solicitor, i asked for his contact details and he refused!! (funny thing is he gave me a card last time!!).

So I am not sure where things stand, i checked with my solicitor, and i am legal 99.99%. The one thing i dont yet comply with is to do with SEEPA and waste water, it dosnt actually apply to my situation, but i need the paper to say so.

I was asked a huge number of questions, alot of them i feel they had no right or reason to ask, the tone was also very different this time. Strange as two of the three had been before, one i have spoken with on the phone a few times.

I am waiting to hear back from my solicitor, at the moment i have no idea if or when they will be back. Instinct i am positive they will be back. Scotland is well known for a much harsher legal approach, but i am surprised the visit was so different this time.

Last time was more like a chat, this time it was questions being barked at me. I have spent £175 in legal advice so far, but i think its been well spent. Current advice is to call the solicitor if they just turn up again, he is willing to go on speaker phone and sort out potential problems.

I will update when anything else happens.

As a side note the Fire people have been back, they have been great as usual.
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[*] posted on 12-1-2018 at 11:01


This is all just incredible to me. I admire you for the way you are dealing with these policemen, not asking for a warrant, etc. It is incredible that they wouldn't give you their contact number. Are they secret police? Be sure to have your lawyer on the phone next time. That should cool their jets.

You were wise not to allow them to inspect your storage of chemicals. I may be weak here. I keep no MSDSs. All my chemicals are labeled and dated, but not stored with regard to compatibility very much, more just alphabetical. My jug storage of flammables is outside in a shed.

I treat my waste to make it as innocuous as possible. I take heavy metals and real nasty, insoluble, stinky stuff down to the community collection point. The container is fully labeled. I burn my flammable waste and mix my occasional horrible, insoluble, non-flammable waste with kitty litter and dispose it with my other household garbage. US law on "small quantity generators" in regard to waste disposal may save me there. My hood vent is about 12 feet above grade.

I feel that I am excellent in fire prevention/abatement and accident prevention/amelioration. My hood glass is shatterproof double pane. I work with small quantities of chemicals, usually less than 100 mL.

I have never been visited by the police or fire department. I am loosening up greatly in regard to whom I show my lab. I talk about it freely to people I like. Most just find it interesting. They don't want to use my antibiotics and pain killers, however





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[*] posted on 12-1-2018 at 13:29


Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
This is all just incredible to me. I admire you for the way you are dealing with these policemen, not asking for a warrant, etc. It is incredible that they wouldn't give you their contact number. Are they secret police? Be sure to have your lawyer on the phone next time. That should cool their jets.

You were wise not to allow them to inspect your storage of chemicals. I may be weak here. I keep no MSDSs. All my chemicals are labeled and dated, but not stored with regard to compatibility very much, more just alphabetical. My jug storage of flammables is outside in a shed.

I treat my waste to make it as innocuous as possible. I take heavy metals and real nasty, insoluble, stinky stuff down to the community collection point. The container is fully labeled. I burn my flammable waste and mix my occasional horrible, insoluble, non-flammable waste with kitty litter and dispose it with my other household garbage. US law on "small quantity generators" in regard to waste disposal may save me there. My hood vent is about 12 feet above grade.

I feel that I am excellent in fire prevention/abatement and accident prevention/amelioration. My hood glass is shatterproof double pane. I work with small quantities of chemicals, usually less than 100 mL.

I have never been visited by the police or fire department. I am loosening up greatly in regard to whom I show my lab. I talk about it freely to people I like. Most just find it interesting. They don't want to use my antibiotics and pain killers, however



I got the contact details last time, the main guy was really nice last time. The other one that was there both visits, is a bit of a dick anyway, but the new guy is the one I think changed things.

No one seemed relaxed this time, he had a typed sheet of questions with him, they were based on things we discussed last time.

Its just speculation at the moment, but i think whats happened is, the guy has gone back and googled the chemicals and the law. He see's a 17 year old with (in his mind), alot of bad shit.

One wasnt in uniform, so he is CID (our version of a defective). The older guy did seem to relax a little once I gave them a copy of my company number and incorporation cert.

I couldnt deny them too much access, the original invite to them was from me. I asked for them to visit so i could actually find out what is and isnt allowed, also how do they react etc.

Something has made them jumpy since the last visit. They also asked for a list of my suppliers, this I fudged. Basically i said Fischer,Atom scientific and any legit company i can find that has what I need.

If the next visit isnt planned and they turn up, then i will get a letter done from my solicitor. I want to cooperate, but i see this as being on my terms not theirs.

I didnt have to invite them, i could have continued under the radar, but i feel its time we find out where we are in the UK.

What worries me is, I am a legit business on paper. Ok in reality its a non profit research company if you want to label it. Thats how its been registered anyway.

My labels are also an issue at the moment, i am unsure of the system to use. It seems straight forward, but the rules are confusing when you read them, also i found out the symbols have a hierarchy! You have to have the most important one first.

Its unclear which label system you have to use if you repack. Whatever happens i have no choice but to see this through to the end. Genuinely this has been done to help others, part of me wishes i had just registered a company and kept my mouth shut.

But i think about whats happened, and TBH doing this is likely the biggest contribution i can make to the forum. I am never going to be a chemist, i am never going to reach the standard of most here.
So I opted to contribute in this way.

End of the day i am young with balls of steel and indestructible!! An invisible force field protects me from harm.
I am assured this shield lasts until around the age of 25, apparently after 25 the shield is taken away and you dont feel invincible. I am skeptical of this at the moment :D.
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[*] posted on 12-1-2018 at 14:55


Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  

... and TBH doing this is likely the biggest contribution i can make to the forum. I am never going to be a chemist, i am never going to reach the standard of most here.


bullshit, bullshit, and double bullshit. You are going to be a great chemist.

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  

... i am young with balls of steel ....


agreed




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[*] posted on 12-1-2018 at 18:02


Here in the US, if someone wants to go on a murderous rampage, all they need to do is drive to the nearest red state and visit a gun shop. Seems a bit silly to ban potential bomb-making chemicals as long as that's still an option.

Also, the immigrants that get Americans upset usually just want to join us, not kill us or take us over.




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[*] posted on 12-1-2018 at 18:48


Sorry to hear about your unpleasant experience, NEMO-Chemistry. Thanks for sharing all of this information though, it's very helpful.

I am also struggling with the labelling situation.


Still waiting on a response to that FOIA request re EPP licences. I do wonder, though, whether it's even worth bothering to apply. It seems that just forming a limited company will be easier, but of course that has many other implications beyond possessing/acquiring chemicals, e.g. accounting/taxation. The £40 fee is offputting, as is the (imo wasteful, invasive, and discriminatory) need to get a medical report from a doctor just because of my anxiety disorder. Add to that the licence only lasts for 3 years, and the question of how distance selling of these chemicals will work when the seller is required to complete a paper record on your licence.
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[*] posted on 12-1-2018 at 20:13


Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
Sorry to hear about your unpleasant experience, NEMO-Chemistry. Thanks for sharing all of this information though, it's very helpful.

I am also struggling with the labelling situation.


Still waiting on a response to that FOIA request re EPP licences. I do wonder, though, whether it's even worth bothering to apply. It seems that just forming a limited company will be easier, but of course that has many other implications beyond possessing/acquiring chemicals, e.g. accounting/taxation. The £40 fee is offputting, as is the (imo wasteful, invasive, and discriminatory) need to get a medical report from a doctor just because of my anxiety disorder. Add to that the licence only lasts for 3 years, and the question of how distance selling of these chemicals will work when the seller is required to complete a paper record on your licence.


I now KNOW for sure several have been issued. BUT and its a big but, it wont help home chemist in the slightest.

The ones I am now aware of being issued, come with stringent conditions of use. Lets say you want Nitric acid to recover gold, no chance. If you want it to do something that cant be done any other way then yes, but you got to record the use each time and the amount. If you use it for anything but the reason stated on the EPP then its a shit storm.

I dont mind the bad experience, the whole point of doing it was so we had accurate info. I know i am safe from prison, worse that hopefully can happen, is i have to close my company and get rid the chems i need a license for.

I always knew it was likely to get a little nasty at some point. We assume the police know the rules inside out, but they dont, few people do!

So this is a way to get information and pass it on, i didnt bother going the EPP route, there is no point, even if you get it, it wouldnt allow general home chemistry. The license dosnt work that way, it reads like it does, but in reality it comes with alot of restrictions on.

Even as a company I am restricted to uses that my SIC numbers and declarations of use say i need it for.
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[*] posted on 13-1-2018 at 19:18


I happen to know a gent in the UK that has a business handling high end telecom gear for huge companies. As an aside, he is recovering gold from electronics in a purpose built laboratory off of his house. He applied for all the use permits, had inspections and such, and keeps a stock of sodium cyanide, nitric acid, and hydrochloric acid, amongst other inorganic reagents.

He is definitely using nitric acid in the recovery of gold. His operation is also one that makes revenue and pays taxes, and is not a hobby. Is that perhaps the difference?




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[*] posted on 15-1-2018 at 09:58


Quote: Originally posted by Fleaker  
I happen to know a gent in the UK that has a business handling high end telecom gear for huge companies. As an aside, he is recovering gold from electronics in a purpose built laboratory off of his house. He applied for all the use permits, had inspections and such, and keeps a stock of sodium cyanide, nitric acid, and hydrochloric acid, amongst other inorganic reagents.

He is definitely using nitric acid in the recovery of gold. His operation is also one that makes revenue and pays taxes, and is not a hobby. Is that perhaps the difference?


Yes, my understanding and experience is the license he has, restricts him to the use of the materials for a specific purpose. he is supposed to log every ml used and what specifically he used it for.

For example he would have to declare the exact use of the Nitric acid, he also would have to give a idea of quantity per year (its changing to monthly) he uses.

To all purposes he is a sole trader business, if he did amateur chemistry on the side, he could use say 1ltr of nitric acid in experiments, unless on the business side he could account for its use.

Plus you have to report losses of chemicals, no idea yet of the minimum amount, but I do know when i said 10 ltr of Nitric acid a year I got a look.

I havnt verified yet, but i think reports of losses are done on a % basis rather than an amount.

Most amateurs have no specific purpose for Nitric acid, most of us would list it as 'general reagent', you cant do this under the license. Even when you buy it you have to declare the exact purpose of that purchase, this information is then given to the police each week.

Now most will think haha I can see a way around this, and indeed you could get around that part.
BUT get inspected or someone just turn up, if your paperwork dosnt match or your not 100%, your in a real lot of trouble.

So far what really bothers me, the police are making the decisions, there seems to be no real expert that comes with them. So its really hard to explain stuff to them, they take notes and go away, then they come back and deliver the verdict.

My gut instinct is I have another week this week or next, i am not expecting anyone with brains to turn up. I have been told my acid cupboard is not adequate.
I know for a fact it is correct, it came from a university! It was purchased and then wasnt needed, i was asked if i wanted it. I have made some good contacts at universities, a couple of them are actively helping me as part of there community outreach programs.

Your friend sounds like he has done alot of research, if he has been granted a license then he has passed some strict criteria, but i suspect he has little wiggle room with the chemicals.

I am really surprised he has been allowed a building attached to his house, but this may be a Scottish difference, up here the police planning guy would veto that.
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[*] posted on 26-1-2018 at 11:44


Update to do...

I have some information, having had another visit. I want to post the experience straight away, but I am told to wait a little bit. So Monday I will post up the latest visit, I will say it explains alot and was a real eye opener.

I am also starting to see how another member, got so much trouble. At first I placed alot of the blame on them, but I am starting to doubt some of my reasoning at the time.

One thing is for sure, whatever you believe the system to be, it ISNT the way you think or expect! maybe in industry, as in big industry. But small company/ man in the street situation, it is without a doubt a complete shambles.

One thing I can clear up, you can get a EPP license. DONT rush out to get one though, I will post details Monday then decide. But TBH i am utterly gobsmacked by the last visit, my current situation concerns me, like the other member I am 100% sure I am in the right. Like the other member I am being told I am not.

You decide when I give details.
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[*] posted on 30-1-2018 at 16:09


Cryptic....
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[*] posted on 30-1-2018 at 17:28


Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
Cryptic....


Yes I wanted to avoid cryptic!! I had hoped to clear it up today, I am waiting for an answer to a question I have asked.

There is no point me giving information that is wrong. But the more I go down this road, the more i feel sorry for bloggers. I dont dispute he was warned, but all this talk of experts and all the rest of it...

I can tell you for sure, the 'expert' i have finally met, would be considered a fucking noob on here with zero sense!

And being able to quote wikipedia from a printed sheet of paper, in my book dont you make you a fucking expert at jack shit.

So in some ways I can see how someone like bloggers who knew his stuff, got caught by someone that didnt.

I dont know his side, but in my own case what they are warning me about is wrong, however as it stands, even though I am a Ltd company, even though I have the correct paperwork and set up, I do have flaw.

If I now do what they are asking, I would be doing something I feel is wrong for my situation. If I dont do it then I am in breach of a little bitch of small print.

I will explain as soon as I here back from the council.

JUST TO BE CLEAR

I have done what they have asked, but if I can, i am going to go back to my way! its safer and in my situation more sensible.

[Edited on 31-1-2018 by NEMO-Chemistry]
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[*] posted on 31-1-2018 at 06:32


Ok for legal reasons and reasons of sense, I wont give a couple of details. None of the details matter, they are more to do with identity, and the fact that I was asked from day one to keep quite what my company does on paper.

Look at it as if I was an animal testing place for cosmetics, I am not, but the reasons are similar, the police dont want it well known what goes on at my address, this dosnt affect most people, it affects me for reasons of location and response times.

There is little point making myself a target.

So the update.

First keep in mind Scotland got rid of area police forces, they lumped into one huge police force called police Scotland. So unlike England which has different police areas, we have a single area. Which means when it comes to real experts we dont have ANY.

If they need an expert they call the fire people or the bomb squad, or do they do what they have done to me, they look on a list of chems I gave them, the list was my intended stock list.

Actually two chems on it made me nervous to give the information, turns out the chemical that has caused me some trouble, is probably the least harmful!!

I thought the guy who wasnt in uniform was from CID, I am now 90% sure he isnt from the police as such, I am pretty sure he is from the police anti terror group.

Which in Scotland would mean he works for people who hunt terrorists.

Everything they have made hand notes of is now typed up, they admitted they cant reach my website normally on the police computer system, then they proceeded to tell me exactly what was on my website!

The guy with the printouts was in there words ' our chemical expert', bullshit, the guy is trained to recognize 3-4 chemical names, one of which is on my list.

Once my new lab is completed (company lab), it will be in a building outside of my house, its a real building and not a shed. One the things I have agreed too and want anyway, is a beefy alarm system. Its also the only place I can get a couple of the chem cabinets in.

It also needs a reinforced door as the door is wooden, my jouse door in reinforced double glazed, safety glass PVC, apparently the hardest doors to break into!! Apparently the police hate PVC doors, they have some give in them, which makes them hard to smash open on a raid.

So given this, I decided to put a small chem cupboard inside my house, short term. I live in a very large house, one part of it is kind of like a granny annex, this is the home lab I use. It does have access from inside the main house, it also has access from outside.

It is on the main house alarm system, it has modern tough doors. Its easy to isolate from the rest of the house, so logic says............

Until the lab is done, the safest place to store some expensive equipment and some chems the police want safe, would be in this area. Technically its classed as a dwelling, although according to the council I could put in a change of use, so i could if I was allowed, have it as my company place of work, but mum says feck that.

They have picked up on a chemical on my list, no not acetic anhydride, no not nitric acid. But Hydrogen peroxide! 32%.

Which according to the expert is a major risk, he read wiki to me (seriously), he told me if I didnt move it to a safe and secure location i would be in breach of the rules. As a business I can own it, but while its in my house, then it isnt covered by business rules!!

They see it as belonging to me personally as its in my home, forget the fact the business brought it, the point to them is its kept at my house and not the company office!
I personally need a EPP if I want to have it in the house. Then he pointed out I have 5 ltrs of acetone, which he considers excessive for a home to have. The company paid for it, it is on the company books, but for obvious reasons I am storing some chemicals in what I see as the safest place until the Lab is done.

What has annoyed me is I have an official warning against me personally for this. They agree I got it legally, they agree my company can own it, but the fact is, if its in my house and not my business premise then I now own it and I need a EPP to own it!

No amount of reasoning was getting me anywhere, so its back inside an unlocked building. Along with some other chemicals I have had to move. I cant.wont list them, but I know some on the list would raise eyebrows here.

None of them concerned the expert except those two..... Now I can start to see how Blogfast got in trouble. I buy 32% Hydrogen peroxide because I can make a lot of lower concentrations with it, from a shipping cost perspective, its the cheapest way to buy it.

The other problem I have is the declaration of use form I used to buy it. On the form I didnt list 2 things i have used it for, when I got it I didnt know I would use it for that!! I didnt know I would need to oxidize the shit out of a blocked frit funnel.

So I am in breach of use. Also, and this is where it gets unfair, I have a small breach of REACH regulation. On my labels for one acid, I have the symbols in the wrong order, your supposed to put the most dangerous symbol first, I got it mixed up.

technically this is a REACH issue and not a criminal one, technically it has jack shit to do with the police, but shirt and tie man in a suite, has informed me that in reality, the guy has a shirt and tie on, he decides what is law and what is regulation. The law cited for this abuse is the anti terrors laws.


If you read them properly, you discover most your normal rights no longer exist. They simply have to suspect your motives, or think something, and thats enough for the normal law to go out the window.

This explains why at one point, bloggers was positive he was pretty much in the clear, he assumed they would use the laws of the land, but it turns out that chemistry and terror and closely related. So its real easy to turn a industrial dispute over regulations, into a breach of legal issues.

In other words, it is now completely legal for them to move any goal post anywhere anytime , and for any purpose. Then move them back again if needed.

So where do I go from here?................

I am applying for change of use, but still building my outside lab, my mum isnt happy about this. it means we loose a living area and will have to pay business rates on it for a while. But a couple of chemicals I have for a good reason, I am not leaving in a easy to get into building.

I cant do the security yet, I dont have the money to finish the plumbing side, let alone start replacing doors.

But there is option 3, option three I cant discuss on the forum, it isnt illegal, but I cant/dont want to link it with me openly. I have asked one member to help me, there is zero wrong with what I am doing, but if i mention it, then by default its really easy to then pinpoint exactly where I am (yeah I know thats ironic!!).

Next visit I am sure is going to be formal, I am also sure it will end up in interview at the police station. But I am sure they are aware they cant do anything yet. It would solely be a scare tactic, someone a member gave me details of, has warned my solicitor that its likely I will get an invite to visit the police station.

But I have been briefed on my rights to the letter, for the matter they use to invite me down (they cant arrest me unless i decline the offer), they cant turn up at a unreasonable time.
They make a single mistake and I will be on it. I started out wanting to work with them, i wanted to be open. I thought it would show i had nothing to hide.

But two chemicals make them irrational, the main issue is the definition of expert. We think chemistry expert, they think and use terrorist expert. Big difference between them.

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Sulaiman
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[*] posted on 31-1-2018 at 07:05


Thank you for going through all this trouble and updating us,
hopefully we Brits will all learn how to deal with the authorities.

Of all the chemicals that I own,
the one that concerned me the most was my 35% H2O2 (also for postal cost savings)
(especially since I also have over a litre of acetone)
which, with a heavy heart, I diluted to c10% (definitely less than the 12% EPP limit)
(how difficult is it to concentrate dilute H2O2 by evaporation ... not)

Anyway, fight the good fight and keep us updated please.


P.S. in your dealings with the authorities, did you get any impression that they may have researched the internet (esp. SM) as a background check ?

[Edited on 31-1-2018 by Sulaiman]




When doing chemistry, don't forget basic physics.
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[*] posted on 31-1-2018 at 15:42


Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman  
Thank you for going through all this trouble and updating us,
hopefully we Brits will all learn how to deal with the authorities.

Of all the chemicals that I own,
the one that concerned me the most was my 35% H2O2 (also for postal cost savings)
(especially since I also have over a litre of acetone)
which, with a heavy heart, I diluted to c10% (definitely less than the 12% EPP limit)
(how difficult is it to concentrate dilute H2O2 by evaporation ... not)

Anyway, fight the good fight and keep us updated please.


P.S. in your dealings with the authorities, did you get any impression that they may have researched the internet (esp. SM) as a background check ?

[Edited on 31-1-2018 by Sulaiman]


Regarding SM and internet searches. You are aware all ISP's etc have to keep your meta data arnt you? Well read that law again, it got changed just before dave C left as prime minister, it was even made into a you tube hit!

Now its not just simple meta data, its every email, every page, every phone call, its all recorded. The problem they got is the court of human rights says they cant use it against you.

This is why Brexit appeals to many tory mp's, when we leave the EU they are keen to get rid of the CHJ.

So while they cant use the actual tape of the call they can use the fact you made the call, as for SM read bloggers news items.

In it is an interesting bit where the judge quotes the fact bloggers is credited as helping with a book called experiment you can do at home but probably shouldnt, this was used against him, it showed he knew some legal thing were not really fit for a home setting.

Also they wanted to know how much copper nitrate I had made, because making copper nitrate isnt on my declaration. I use 1 chem forum, i have only ever used 1 chem forum. I have mentioned making copper nitrate in 1 place and 1 place only........

Here on SM.

Trust me if they think you might be of interest then everything you have ever done online will be found and looked at, its super easy for them to do.

Every chem you have purchased in last 24 months would have been reported if the seller has any brains. It takes roughly 2.7ms to get that info from the central database.

Are they watching you? Most people No, not unless you catch the attention, But you own two of the most feared and watched chemicals out there.

Like I said I have some thing that are legal for me to have, They didnt raise an eyebrow because the eyebrow owner didnt have a clue what they are, but the eyebrow owner knows two chemicals very well. Acetone and Hydrogen peroxide, every policeman in the UK will react if they find bottles with that on.

Mr expert asked me how safe it was to pick them up!! Stop thinking these experts are chem experts or scientists because they are not, they are terrorist experts, they know the explosive of choice is acetone peroxide.

They know its a really dangerous explosive, they know it goes off without warning, they know its made from acetone and hydrogen peroxide. BUT they know jack shit more than that!!

I swear to you the impression I got and the look i saw on the faces, they were scared of the acetone bottle, they didnt have a clue its nail varnish remover.

I was in control at the start, I thought I could steer this my way at my speed. I was wrong, I am glad I have done it, but i was seriously wrong in my assumptions.

I honestly thought they would turn up, take a look and say, we will need to get a chemist come look at this. No instead they called there expert.

Think history teacher taking two day course is then qualified to teach science. That is the problem we have today with home chemistry.

I will carry on (no choice now anyway), and by the time I am fucking finished, at least one expert will have made some acetone peroxide and seen it go off.

he will also use and see nail varnish removed from HIS nail, he will see and do the elephant toothpaste experiment! If it kills me i will make sure before this is over, at least one expert will do this.#

Its the only thing I can think of doing to try and address this absurd reaction they have to the wrong chemicals. Incidentally he picked up a number of bottles of solvents with bare hands, no fear no nothing.

Didnt flinch too much when I said some of them give you cancer.

As a side note his wife apparently makes soap, I showed him soda glass test tube put in a coffee mug of very very hot hydroxide.

I then did the same with a test tube and very hot peroxide, I think he expected the peroxide to explode (so did I actually by the time he had finished lol).

I will educate them, I bet his wife dont make too much soap from now on, he looked really shocked.
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[*] posted on 31-1-2018 at 19:38


I really feel badly that you folks are being so ill-treated in the UK and possibly other EU countries. The terrorist use of TATP must have the police highly intimidated. We have nothing like that in the US. Ace sells acetone by the gallon and the clerks don't flinch when selling it. 33% H2O2 is available freely at my local health food store and grow shop. There again, no flinching or raised eyebrows. In regard to the incompetence of the so-called "experts" I don't understand why your police don't hire a real chemist for home visits. They clearly just want to stop home chemistry, as it makes them nervous. Many fear whatever they don't understand. Ace did have a log for customers to sign a few years back when buying acetone and other solvents. I think our local police instituted this. But it didn't last long. My friend, who buys NaOH pellets at Ace for his swimming pool was asked to sign the log. He said "I'm not going to do that" and walked out and went next door to buy it.

As a home chemist I'm glad that the pseudoephedrine cold medicines purchases are computer logged to prevent the smurfs from buying large amounts of pseudo. Also, it seems the terrorists' choice of weapon is now just mowing people down with a truck instead of bombing. This should take the pressure off anybody that happens to have a quart of nail polish remover laying around, like those little Vietnamese ladies that run the nail salons.

[Edited on 1-2-2018 by Magpie]




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[*] posted on 4-2-2018 at 03:01


Chemists cost money, besides the people in power think you stop terrorism with people who know about terrorists. The truth is, anyone can do terror, the way to stop it is to look at the big picture, no terrorist, just like no drug factory, has a cupboard full of copper sulphate and sodium carbonate etc etc.

They need to look at the bigger picture, chlorates apparently were a weed killer in the UK back in the 80's. EVERYBODY i am told, knew if you mixed it with sugar you could make a bang, no one cared. This is odd when you look at the problem the UK had with terrorists back then (IRA).

The difference is the world trade towers was the shocking thing every seen. Upto that point a load of soldiers and horses maimed and killed on a parade was the biggest attack. Terrorist were not in the habit of killing themselves.

What changed was the nature of terror, old school terror you stop by catching the terrorist, todays terrorists does it knowing he isnt coming back. That frightens people, because it means you no longer have to check and secure a place. Now you have to check every person, and not just something left unattended.

Its no coincidence the IRA hang up its guns, once the towers came down, even the IRA knew terror had changed, they were aware they couldnt compete with the knew style.

I was doing a black powder thing in energetics. The problem is I am allowed 10g of it by law. But if I mix that 10g with 200g graphite, how much black powder do I own?

They aint gonna separate it out trust me. All I currently have thats bad news is Nitric acid and acetone (as seen by the police perspective), Nitric acid dosnt bother them much. Acetone really bothers them.

Chlorates get you the bomb squad, this is because one the vids they watch shows some going off. Shame they dont watch a blue peter video from 1980 where the gardener puts it on the drive way to get rid of the grass.
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[*] posted on 4-2-2018 at 12:27
Glad I found this today!


Guys/Girls/whoever,

I have read most of this thread and can see that some of you have got yourselves in a bit of a pickle with all of this both in your understanding and in some cases your practical way of dealing with the dilemma.
About me: I am a currently practicing home chemist and current EPP License holder and have numerous chemicals.
I also use some chemicals for work purposes and have separate work storage for these.
I have had an impromptu visit from the authorities to check me out because of my purchases, also because I am a firearm certificate holder and would be of particular interest for obvious reasons. Although harrowing the net effect was positive for me. The visit was before the EPP came into effect and when the requirement came in, I went through the application process.
I will tell you about that another time.
To date I have had no trouble at all and have found the Authorities good to deal with.
I can see much confusion, wrong conclusions, fear in this and other threads so I decided to post here to try and offer some Help.

I am also a forum admin at the UK Pyrotechnics Society and we have dealt with all of this a fair bit!

Firstly, if you are in possesion of any of the substances listed in the latest revisions of the poisons and explosive precursor regulations and do not have a license then of course you are in breach of the law. Thats the bit we all know right?

Did you also know that if you inadvertently came into possession of the alleged controlled substance there is provision for you to dispose of those substances in a reasonable time frame. if you cannot identify these substances then the option may be that you could take them to your local recycling centre for disposal. They have a cabinet for the odd thing like this. Check by dropping in and asking the staff. I know mercury could not be passed on in this way but in days gone by I have disposed of stuff this way.
You think they are old photographic chemicals right? (yes you do!)

Paint pigments........If your alleged controlled substance is an art material or used as an old pigment it seems to me that in this context the substance is exempt. I did pour through the statute and came across this some time ago. I will try to find chapter and verse again at some point

These are just a few bits and pieces I have found over time and may help those of you seeking to push the eject button on chemistry.

For those of us that want to continue there are plenty of options if you do it intelligently and without panic or paranoia.
I did notice that one of you started a company to try and circumnavigate the general public restrictions, not the best move really, it may flag you up more initially and subject you to lots of commercial regs.

Over all you need to start a clean sheet. Apply for the license and do not be put off. The Home Office are actually quite helpful if you start off in the right way and with a good attitude.
As has already been said, It is probably not the wisest move to call the authorities and tell them you are in possession of a load of stuff you should not have. If you did this with a firearm or shotgun certificate you would be in very deep water.
That said, I know someone who let their EPP license expire and then tried to renew it a month or two later. Not only that, they asked for a controversial substance to be added on.
They had to have a visit from counter terrorist employees but that went fine and hey presto, they have everything back in order with no trouble! So you see it is not all bad.

Most importantly we all need to stand together in the U.K. and walk forward, Don't Give up. There are enough of us and we need more!! None of this is for the faint hearted but it is absolutely possible.

One other thing, give the political stuff a bit less focus as it is distracting and often incorrect. Also it does not give a good impression.

Second edit: **I can tell you from personal experience that some personnel from various agencies to date are still not clear on the correct interpretation of the law and how you deal with them on the day is quite important. This whole area is still a tricky stretch of water and that is even more reason to get it right.

I have browsed science madness for years and in all honesty I think it needs to accommodate recent events and moderate accordingly, as much as that goes against freedom it would be immensely helpful for our future. Many other dedicated pyrotechnic forums keep a very close eye on what is discussed and for good reason. I will elaborate as far as I can in time but it is a matter of common sense really.**

I will stop there for now but if you have any questions please ask me via the forum or P.M. or join the UK pyrotechnics society forum and have a look at some of the stuff on there.
My aim here is to help folk get straight, compliant and happily experimenting without fear or paranoia like I do now.

Regards to all.


[Edited on 4-2-2018 by Thiocyanate]

[Edited on 4-2-2018 by Thiocyanate]
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