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BJ68
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[*] posted on 2-1-2018 at 21:50


Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
oxalic acid (ok sure, it's poisonous, but so long as you don't go eating or snorting it it's really not a problem to handle it).


Sorry got something wrong....

Bj68

[Edited on 3-1-2018 by BJ68]
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[*] posted on 4-1-2018 at 19:02


Oxalic is a strange one, it isnt enforced currently, although it is reported and you do have to declare use. Oxalic acid is a double edge sword for the authorities. Its used a great deal in Bee keeping, there are few bee keepers considering the total number of hives.

So for those with a couple hundred hives some have thousands) 10% solution just isnt practical or economic to use, so if the government enforce it strongly, then the bees which are already in massive decline, will suffer even more.

So I think Oxalic acid is a bit of a stand off, at least where I am. I think its going to stay that way at least for this year and maybe next, Bees got hammered last year. I know one local keeper lost 120 out of 230 hives last year.

The wild hives we have in our wood have also decreased alot, so far I know of only one tree with live bees inside, its a real shame.
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[*] posted on 4-1-2018 at 20:07


I use oxalic acid (Bartender's Friend) almost daily to clean my sink and glass top stove. It's non-abrasive and an excellent cleaner. Why on earth would a country ban oxalic acid?



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[*] posted on 5-1-2018 at 01:44


Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
I use oxalic acid (Bartender's Friend) almost daily to clean my sink and glass top stove. It's non-abrasive and an excellent cleaner. Why on earth would a country ban oxalic acid?

I think its an EU directive, so not sure but i think the entire EU is affected, however as I pointed out you can still get it with little trouble. I havnt been able to find out for sure if its banned, or simply on the watch list...

The list of banned substances is a little confused at the moment, but for now they wont enforce it because apparently Bees are in really bad shape.
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[*] posted on 6-1-2018 at 06:48


I have been given information from someone who has actually been granted a license! I dont know many details yet, one thing that was mentioned however, leads me to believe the granting is fairly strict. I do not want to give alot of detail yet, I need a little time to get the facts from the person concerned.

Also it would do us no good if suddenly everyone applies for the license using the same reasons etc. This is the third one I am aware of and the first one not connected with a business. So this is good news!

A big thank you to the person who contacted me, once I have had a chance to talk them, and if they agree, then I will post more details.
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[*] posted on 8-1-2018 at 07:16


Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
Oxalic is a strange one, it isnt enforced currently, although it is reported and you do have to declare use. Oxalic acid is a double edge sword for the authorities.


I have purchased oxalic acid recently and never had to declare the use.
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[*] posted on 8-1-2018 at 21:35


Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
Oxalic is a strange one, it isnt enforced currently, although it is reported and you do have to declare use. Oxalic acid is a double edge sword for the authorities.


I have purchased oxalic acid recently and never had to declare the use.

Its currently easy to get, not 100% on sunshine date i need to check. But you can go look at the list yourself, its listed as a max of 10% solution only.

In reality I honestly think this is a blind eye one, the deaths were murders and it was a strange case itself. Considering its importance to bee health, i think you will be able to get this for a while yet. Be aware it is on the banned above 10% list without a license though..

In all honesty its the probaly the strangest chemical on the list.

This thread is about the law, not what you can get hold of, i know of two places still selling conc Nitric acid, this dosnt make it legal.
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[*] posted on 12-1-2018 at 09:54


Well had another visit.

This one not so good! The arrangement was for them to call me and arrange a day and time to come back. They just turned up, no expert with them. This time was slightly bizarre, the main policeman was one of the original ones, he had obviously been on google looking up the law.

First words out of his mouth were.............
Do you have Nitric Acid? Well yes obviously as it was on the list i gave him last time. He then asked if I had a EPP license, i replied NO.

All three stiffened and stepped forward a bit, so straightaway i said i dont need one. He asked why and i explained the Ltd company, this is where it gets really messy. He said my address is residential and therefore i couldnt have a business premise for chemicals.

Actually this isnt accurate for my address, it was a farm and then a dairy and then a workshop and so on. It also has a buildings a bit like a steding. These have running water and sewage and electric, they are also classed in part as commercial, this is because part of the Dairy used to be in one part of the building.

Apparently he is going to check this when he gets back, and also check to see if I have a change of use in place. I went and got the paperwork for the company and gave him both SIC numbers and the company reg number.

My original plan after the last visit was to have a solicitor with me when they came back, obviously i didnt have a chance to do that as they didnt call first. They asked to see my chemicals and storage. Right or wrong I declined this.

Originally i had offered to cooperate fully, this time felt different. I am sure this time wasnt intended as a friendly visit. He asked if I had Hydrogen peroxide, i said not at the moment. He asked how much i intended to keep in the future.

At that point i said i would cooperate once they had someone with them that was an expert and understood the law. I said i would supply a list once i had spoken with a solicitor, i asked for his contact details and he refused!! (funny thing is he gave me a card last time!!).

So I am not sure where things stand, i checked with my solicitor, and i am legal 99.99%. The one thing i dont yet comply with is to do with SEEPA and waste water, it dosnt actually apply to my situation, but i need the paper to say so.

I was asked a huge number of questions, alot of them i feel they had no right or reason to ask, the tone was also very different this time. Strange as two of the three had been before, one i have spoken with on the phone a few times.

I am waiting to hear back from my solicitor, at the moment i have no idea if or when they will be back. Instinct i am positive they will be back. Scotland is well known for a much harsher legal approach, but i am surprised the visit was so different this time.

Last time was more like a chat, this time it was questions being barked at me. I have spent £175 in legal advice so far, but i think its been well spent. Current advice is to call the solicitor if they just turn up again, he is willing to go on speaker phone and sort out potential problems.

I will update when anything else happens.

As a side note the Fire people have been back, they have been great as usual.
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[*] posted on 12-1-2018 at 11:01


This is all just incredible to me. I admire you for the way you are dealing with these policemen, not asking for a warrant, etc. It is incredible that they wouldn't give you their contact number. Are they secret police? Be sure to have your lawyer on the phone next time. That should cool their jets.

You were wise not to allow them to inspect your storage of chemicals. I may be weak here. I keep no MSDSs. All my chemicals are labeled and dated, but not stored with regard to compatibility very much, more just alphabetical. My jug storage of flammables is outside in a shed.

I treat my waste to make it as innocuous as possible. I take heavy metals and real nasty, insoluble, stinky stuff down to the community collection point. The container is fully labeled. I burn my flammable waste and mix my occasional horrible, insoluble, non-flammable waste with kitty litter and dispose it with my other household garbage. US law on "small quantity generators" in regard to waste disposal may save me there. My hood vent is about 12 feet above grade.

I feel that I am excellent in fire prevention/abatement and accident prevention/amelioration. My hood glass is shatterproof double pane. I work with small quantities of chemicals, usually less than 100 mL.

I have never been visited by the police or fire department. I am loosening up greatly in regard to whom I show my lab. I talk about it freely to people I like. Most just find it interesting. They don't want to use my antibiotics and pain killers, however





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[*] posted on 12-1-2018 at 13:29


Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
This is all just incredible to me. I admire you for the way you are dealing with these policemen, not asking for a warrant, etc. It is incredible that they wouldn't give you their contact number. Are they secret police? Be sure to have your lawyer on the phone next time. That should cool their jets.

You were wise not to allow them to inspect your storage of chemicals. I may be weak here. I keep no MSDSs. All my chemicals are labeled and dated, but not stored with regard to compatibility very much, more just alphabetical. My jug storage of flammables is outside in a shed.

I treat my waste to make it as innocuous as possible. I take heavy metals and real nasty, insoluble, stinky stuff down to the community collection point. The container is fully labeled. I burn my flammable waste and mix my occasional horrible, insoluble, non-flammable waste with kitty litter and dispose it with my other household garbage. US law on "small quantity generators" in regard to waste disposal may save me there. My hood vent is about 12 feet above grade.

I feel that I am excellent in fire prevention/abatement and accident prevention/amelioration. My hood glass is shatterproof double pane. I work with small quantities of chemicals, usually less than 100 mL.

I have never been visited by the police or fire department. I am loosening up greatly in regard to whom I show my lab. I talk about it freely to people I like. Most just find it interesting. They don't want to use my antibiotics and pain killers, however



I got the contact details last time, the main guy was really nice last time. The other one that was there both visits, is a bit of a dick anyway, but the new guy is the one I think changed things.

No one seemed relaxed this time, he had a typed sheet of questions with him, they were based on things we discussed last time.

Its just speculation at the moment, but i think whats happened is, the guy has gone back and googled the chemicals and the law. He see's a 17 year old with (in his mind), alot of bad shit.

One wasnt in uniform, so he is CID (our version of a defective). The older guy did seem to relax a little once I gave them a copy of my company number and incorporation cert.

I couldnt deny them too much access, the original invite to them was from me. I asked for them to visit so i could actually find out what is and isnt allowed, also how do they react etc.

Something has made them jumpy since the last visit. They also asked for a list of my suppliers, this I fudged. Basically i said Fischer,Atom scientific and any legit company i can find that has what I need.

If the next visit isnt planned and they turn up, then i will get a letter done from my solicitor. I want to cooperate, but i see this as being on my terms not theirs.

I didnt have to invite them, i could have continued under the radar, but i feel its time we find out where we are in the UK.

What worries me is, I am a legit business on paper. Ok in reality its a non profit research company if you want to label it. Thats how its been registered anyway.

My labels are also an issue at the moment, i am unsure of the system to use. It seems straight forward, but the rules are confusing when you read them, also i found out the symbols have a hierarchy! You have to have the most important one first.

Its unclear which label system you have to use if you repack. Whatever happens i have no choice but to see this through to the end. Genuinely this has been done to help others, part of me wishes i had just registered a company and kept my mouth shut.

But i think about whats happened, and TBH doing this is likely the biggest contribution i can make to the forum. I am never going to be a chemist, i am never going to reach the standard of most here.
So I opted to contribute in this way.

End of the day i am young with balls of steel and indestructible!! An invisible force field protects me from harm.
I am assured this shield lasts until around the age of 25, apparently after 25 the shield is taken away and you dont feel invincible. I am skeptical of this at the moment :D.
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[*] posted on 12-1-2018 at 14:55


Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  

... and TBH doing this is likely the biggest contribution i can make to the forum. I am never going to be a chemist, i am never going to reach the standard of most here.


bullshit, bullshit, and double bullshit. You are going to be a great chemist.

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  

... i am young with balls of steel ....


agreed




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[*] posted on 12-1-2018 at 18:02


Here in the US, if someone wants to go on a murderous rampage, all they need to do is drive to the nearest red state and visit a gun shop. Seems a bit silly to ban potential bomb-making chemicals as long as that's still an option.

Also, the immigrants that get Americans upset usually just want to join us, not kill us or take us over.




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[*] posted on 12-1-2018 at 18:48


Sorry to hear about your unpleasant experience, NEMO-Chemistry. Thanks for sharing all of this information though, it's very helpful.

I am also struggling with the labelling situation.


Still waiting on a response to that FOIA request re EPP licences. I do wonder, though, whether it's even worth bothering to apply. It seems that just forming a limited company will be easier, but of course that has many other implications beyond possessing/acquiring chemicals, e.g. accounting/taxation. The £40 fee is offputting, as is the (imo wasteful, invasive, and discriminatory) need to get a medical report from a doctor just because of my anxiety disorder. Add to that the licence only lasts for 3 years, and the question of how distance selling of these chemicals will work when the seller is required to complete a paper record on your licence.
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[*] posted on 12-1-2018 at 20:13


Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
Sorry to hear about your unpleasant experience, NEMO-Chemistry. Thanks for sharing all of this information though, it's very helpful.

I am also struggling with the labelling situation.


Still waiting on a response to that FOIA request re EPP licences. I do wonder, though, whether it's even worth bothering to apply. It seems that just forming a limited company will be easier, but of course that has many other implications beyond possessing/acquiring chemicals, e.g. accounting/taxation. The £40 fee is offputting, as is the (imo wasteful, invasive, and discriminatory) need to get a medical report from a doctor just because of my anxiety disorder. Add to that the licence only lasts for 3 years, and the question of how distance selling of these chemicals will work when the seller is required to complete a paper record on your licence.


I now KNOW for sure several have been issued. BUT and its a big but, it wont help home chemist in the slightest.

The ones I am now aware of being issued, come with stringent conditions of use. Lets say you want Nitric acid to recover gold, no chance. If you want it to do something that cant be done any other way then yes, but you got to record the use each time and the amount. If you use it for anything but the reason stated on the EPP then its a shit storm.

I dont mind the bad experience, the whole point of doing it was so we had accurate info. I know i am safe from prison, worse that hopefully can happen, is i have to close my company and get rid the chems i need a license for.

I always knew it was likely to get a little nasty at some point. We assume the police know the rules inside out, but they dont, few people do!

So this is a way to get information and pass it on, i didnt bother going the EPP route, there is no point, even if you get it, it wouldnt allow general home chemistry. The license dosnt work that way, it reads like it does, but in reality it comes with alot of restrictions on.

Even as a company I am restricted to uses that my SIC numbers and declarations of use say i need it for.
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[*] posted on 13-1-2018 at 19:18


I happen to know a gent in the UK that has a business handling high end telecom gear for huge companies. As an aside, he is recovering gold from electronics in a purpose built laboratory off of his house. He applied for all the use permits, had inspections and such, and keeps a stock of sodium cyanide, nitric acid, and hydrochloric acid, amongst other inorganic reagents.

He is definitely using nitric acid in the recovery of gold. His operation is also one that makes revenue and pays taxes, and is not a hobby. Is that perhaps the difference?




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[*] posted on 15-1-2018 at 09:58


Quote: Originally posted by Fleaker  
I happen to know a gent in the UK that has a business handling high end telecom gear for huge companies. As an aside, he is recovering gold from electronics in a purpose built laboratory off of his house. He applied for all the use permits, had inspections and such, and keeps a stock of sodium cyanide, nitric acid, and hydrochloric acid, amongst other inorganic reagents.

He is definitely using nitric acid in the recovery of gold. His operation is also one that makes revenue and pays taxes, and is not a hobby. Is that perhaps the difference?


Yes, my understanding and experience is the license he has, restricts him to the use of the materials for a specific purpose. he is supposed to log every ml used and what specifically he used it for.

For example he would have to declare the exact use of the Nitric acid, he also would have to give a idea of quantity per year (its changing to monthly) he uses.

To all purposes he is a sole trader business, if he did amateur chemistry on the side, he could use say 1ltr of nitric acid in experiments, unless on the business side he could account for its use.

Plus you have to report losses of chemicals, no idea yet of the minimum amount, but I do know when i said 10 ltr of Nitric acid a year I got a look.

I havnt verified yet, but i think reports of losses are done on a % basis rather than an amount.

Most amateurs have no specific purpose for Nitric acid, most of us would list it as 'general reagent', you cant do this under the license. Even when you buy it you have to declare the exact purpose of that purchase, this information is then given to the police each week.

Now most will think haha I can see a way around this, and indeed you could get around that part.
BUT get inspected or someone just turn up, if your paperwork dosnt match or your not 100%, your in a real lot of trouble.

So far what really bothers me, the police are making the decisions, there seems to be no real expert that comes with them. So its really hard to explain stuff to them, they take notes and go away, then they come back and deliver the verdict.

My gut instinct is I have another week this week or next, i am not expecting anyone with brains to turn up. I have been told my acid cupboard is not adequate.
I know for a fact it is correct, it came from a university! It was purchased and then wasnt needed, i was asked if i wanted it. I have made some good contacts at universities, a couple of them are actively helping me as part of there community outreach programs.

Your friend sounds like he has done alot of research, if he has been granted a license then he has passed some strict criteria, but i suspect he has little wiggle room with the chemicals.

I am really surprised he has been allowed a building attached to his house, but this may be a Scottish difference, up here the police planning guy would veto that.
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