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Author: Subject: Buy PdCl2 from Alibaba; Recover Pd; Profit?
DaftStrategery
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[*] posted on 6-1-2018 at 07:43


Thank you, RogueRose! I've downloaded the two papers and given them a cursory glance because I've been reading this delightful text from the 1940s on the recovery of precious metals by Hoke... Some real gems in that one, like "taste the washings until they are no longer sour"!?!

One additional note, since some of you appear to not be taking my posts here in the spirit intended. I thought the choice of thread title and my somewhat irreverent tone would suffice to show that I am not approaching this as a serious business venture or even as some kind of "get rich quick" scheme. I'm just a curious fellow who has an interest in electroplating and saw a potentially interesting tangent in recovering Pd from PdCl2, admittedly because the advertised price on Alibaba seemed absurdly low, but once I put more than a few minutes of effort into researching just how one might go about doing this it started to sound like a fun project. As long as fuming nitric acid or cyanide isn't involved, that is. Or visits from the DEA/ATF/FBI/FDA/etc.





[Edited on 6-1-2018 by DaftStrategery]
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[*] posted on 13-1-2018 at 19:06


Could just use the search engine--this has been covered before here (by myself).

In any case, you will not get a discount on palladium buying it as its dichloride from most supplier. I make the stuff and it goes for a couple buck per gram premium in bulk as a fabricated good. If it seems too good to be true, it probably is.

Very rarely there's a discount on sponge or on bar stock. A few years back, there was about a $22/oz spread on taking 50 troy ounce Pd bars and dissolving them all and making them into palladium sponge. Worth while.

I suggest instead you buy scrap dental gold and separate the Pd, Pt, and Ag and Au just like garage chemist has. You will find that to be both educational and profitable.




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[*] posted on 14-1-2018 at 02:41


I think China is getting better, depending on what your spending it may be worth getting a agent.

As for drug making, most people use drug related chemicals all the time. Personally i use one a great deal, what worries me is soon it may be listed. Not sure what I will do if it does get listed, bloody drug cooks using water is going to screw us all up!

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[*] posted on 14-1-2018 at 12:04


Quote: Originally posted by kadriver  
Elemetal Direct will buy your palladium. They pay 80% of spot based on purity of your metal. So if you had 995 pure palladium then the would pay .995 X .8 X spot = payout.

I bet if you convert it to PdCl2 and sell it on eBay, that's where you'd get top dollar. They'll pay as much per gram of PdCl2 as they will for Pd metal! And PdCl2 is only like 60% Pd. Some of them are also interested in sassafras products, but not all of them are. It probably shouldn't matter.

Quote: Originally posted by DaftStrategery  
Hmmm, isn't nitric acid virtually impossible to purchase because of DHS restrictions? Also, while I feel I am very competent technically, I am less confident in my ability to safely use nitric acid or cyanide solutions, to name 2 that are commonly used to recover PGMs.

I can go into a local store and buy a gallon of nitric acid for $60, in the middle of Manhattan. I can buy sodium and potassium cyanide by the pound too. Incidentally, is there an easy way to extract PdCl2 and Pd dust from an old carpet by using a CN salt? Nitric acid would oxidize the whole bucket, I'm afraid.

Those things are legal to sell, just very difficult and expensive to ship.




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DaftStrategery
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[*] posted on 15-1-2018 at 06:31


Quote:
Quote:
I'm glad to see there is still some interest in this topic, even though the lot of you can't seem to resist lecturing me on the economics, while being suspiciously circumspect about the chemistry. Case in point:

Quote: Originally posted by Fleaker  
Could just use the search engine--this has been covered before here (by myself).


Yes, I did find your post via google search - http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=71811 - and it was actually what led me to start a topic on the subject here, because I wouldn't exactly describe your post as having covered this subject. For example...

Hydrogen will rapidly reduce it? My understanding - knowing all too well this isn't saying much - is that you need to heat the salt up to "calcination temperature" then pass hydrogen gas over it to reduce it back to the metal; that doesn't sound practical for the garage chemist, and it would produce gaseous HCl as a bonus.

I am also aware of using a more active metal such as Zn or Fe and HCl to precipitate out the Pd, but I am concerned this could result in contamination of the Pd if too much of the active metal is added; and isn't finely divided Pd - which is what you will get from this approach - itself soluble in HCl?

Your other brief suggestion was to use boiling sodium formate solution at pH 5, but the limited information I found about this approach is that it is a very vigorous reaction and requires careful control of the pH. Furthermore, I'm not sure of the most practical way to adjust the pH: start with sodium formate solution (likely highly basic as it is a salt of a weak acid and strong base) and add formic acid or start with formic acid and add sodium hydroxide?

Quote: Originally posted by Fleaker  
In any case, you will not get a discount on palladium buying it as its dichloride from most supplier. I make the stuff and it goes for a couple buck per gram premium in bulk as a fabricated good. If it seems too good to be true, it probably is.


It's probably a moot point now anyway, since I have not been able to register my business on Alibaba - it asked me an email address when I initially registered, I confirmed the email address, then it asked me to enter my password, but I never specified a password in the first place, and doing the "I forgot my password" resulted in an error page. Rather annoying, all of this.

Quote: Originally posted by Fleaker  
I suggest instead you buy scrap dental gold and separate the Pd, Pt, and Ag and Au just like garage chemist has. You will find that to be both educational and profitable.


AFAIK, this requires nitric acid or cyanide solutions; I'm not really interested in dying over some dental fillings.

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[*] posted on 24-1-2018 at 11:32


I'm not trying to lecture you on the economics, but rather guide you to the reality that people generally don't sell manufactured precious metals goods at a discount. I know this because I happen to work in the precious metals field.
But to answer your original first question...you can in fact make money buying palladium salts from China. A very well known member here did just that, but he did so having cashed out at the right time.

Maybe I should not bother as it seems you know so much and don't want lectured but your understanding of a lot of things is mistaken.

Your cited post was not the post I was referring to--this was the post I was referring to:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=9721#p...

and this post (from garage_chemist):

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=51&t...

and no, the formate reaction isn't all that vigorous, but I guess that's subjective. Let's put it this way: I have no objection to using formic acid, ammonia, and (NH3)2PdCl2 at 10-30 kg scale but I am also set up to do so and do it routinely. In any case, it's only going to go as fast and as vigorous as you let it, as you're adding the reagents to the reaction mixture.

as for Zn reduction (definitely use Zn if pure Pd precursor was used, copper only if dirty)...that's easily removed with dilute HCl. A small amount of a sulfite salt, or some other O2 scavenging salt, is useful for preventing even miniscule traces of Pd from going into solution. Not that it matters much, because the zinc can be removed from the Pd by melting (it volatilizes away), by dilute acids, etc. You should try and get the Pd as close to pure as possible/ruin it as little as you may, because regardless of what purity you buy, you will not be selling it for spot price because no one is going to accept your Pd metal for delivery.

When I said hydrogen rapidly reduces Pd salts, I mean it does so at room temperature (and on), PdCl2 will be reduced by both CO and H2. Sure, in your case HCl is a byproduct. So you buy a glass tube put it in a pyrex tube and scrub the off gas with dilute sodium hydroxide. Problem solved.
You can also just heat and decompose to PdO from PdCl2 and then melt that directly with an O2/H2 torch.

Nitric acid (or cyanide) are both safe when handled responsibly with suitable precautions taken. I have never come close to dying from either of them and have used both extensively in the past decade. If you are concerned about their health and safety implications, then perhaps stick to EE.

As for Kadriver's suggestion about Elemetal direct...I wouldn't sell them a brass ring, having dealt with the other end of the spectrum on buying from them.


Hope this is less suspiciously circumspect about the chemistry--whatever the hell that means. I just try to avoid the ad nauseum spoon feeding.




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[*] posted on 24-1-2018 at 17:28


If you want to sell precious metals, eBay is the way to go. You can usually even sell for over spot price. Usually some processed form of the metal, like a salt, will sell for more, but there might not be as much demand.



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