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Magpie
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Are you procedural or model driven?
This concept was mentioned by wg48 in the thread about stepper motor stirrers. I had never heard of the subject "procedural or model driven" so
wanted to discuss this more. I choose to do it here so as not to be a distraction in the stirrer thread.
Quote: Originally posted by wg48  |
Apparently he is a retired chemical engineer about 75 years old. Unfortunately as we get older our abilities to learn new stuff can dramatically
decrease. Our short term memory tends to be very short and decisions trees tend be short and narrow. |
My younger son, has a master's degree in art. I thought he would have a hard time getting a job when he graduated. But, no, he now is a president of
an advertising firm in Manhattan and makes more money than I ever thought of making. He has no interest in engineering but describes me as "the most
curious man he has ever met." I relish learning new things. I have taken several chemistry courses since I retired, and plan to take a course in
philosophy next year (I love Nietzche.) This stirrer problem is making me consider taking a course in computer component wiring.
I'm always taking a college course in something. I do agree that I don't learn as fast as I did when I was 18 years old, but I stick to it.
Eventually I can out perform those that are 20 years old. "Old age and treachery will always overcome youth and exuberance."
My short-term memory is good, I think, as I usually have several projects going at once. "There will come a time, however, when fathers will not be
able to remember where they put something as recently as 6PM yesterday." (a quote from Monty Python's "Life of Brian.")
| Quote: Originally posted by wg48 |
Our abilities to learn new things is also very dependent on our experience and the type of personality we are ie whether we are mostly procedural or
model driven. Procedural personalities tend not to have transferable skills. |
I think I am, as you say, "model driven." But I think my skills are transferable and diverse. I do, or have done, the following for fun:
1. fish, hunt, and hike
2. sail sailboats (up to 36 feet) in the Bahamas, Virgin Islands, San Juan Islands and Straits of Georgia in WA state/British Columbia, and East
coast of the US.
3. taken 2 trips to Europe (Germany, UK, Italy, Switzerland, France, and Greece)
4. taken literature courses, gone to Shakespearean plays, and worship Mozart and Beethoven
5. I work out at the gym daily; some women think I am 50 as I have no wrinkles. People think I weigh 160; I weigh 192. My metabolism is so high my
body surface temperature is 90°F; my wife's is 77°F.
6. I travel widely in the US from NY to OR.
7. I have a Starbucks coffee every morning with a group of retirees consisting of a vice president and electrical engineer, a mechanical engineer, an
HR manager, and a Lutheran minister. Other than their wives being prudes I enjoy the banter and exchange of information.
| Quote: Originally posted by wg48 |
I think its reasonable to assume as a chemical engineer he is a post graduated but his abilites in electronics is very limited.
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I agree. I took AC circuits and electronics lab in college a long time ago. Nothing much on circuit design/assembly/testing.
| Quote: Originally posted by wg48 |
No offence intended to anyone. I am retired engineer I have noticed my maths skills are much reduced along with my ability to learn new stuff. It
sucks to be old and half brain dead and being an atheist I can't even look forward to heaven LOL
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Yes, my higher math skills suck. I tried to go back on my own and learn the basics of calculus, not just the plug and crank stuff from high school.
When I got to the Cauchy formula I quit, too much work for no obvious payout.
I'm glad I'm an atheist. I don't have to worry about God critiquing my every move.
I hope this has not come across as bragging. I'm just trying to show that my life is diverse and people oriented.
[Edited on 4-2-2018 by Magpie]
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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JJay
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I would probably say I am model driven. I hate treachery with a passion 
Chemistry is really only one of my hobbies and not my biggest focus. My higher math skills might not be the best on the forum's, but I am sure I would
rank in the top 10. I don't even like math, but I am good at it.
I vaguely remember using the Cauchy distribution for something one time, but it's not the holy grail in finance that some people think it is. Most of
the time you are better off with a semi-parametric distribution.
Programming wise, I'm really good. Last week I taught myself Python and started a toy project, a program to write papers from a set of references.
It's not very good at it yet... the algorithm that clusters the information to produce paragraphs is a little weak and tends to get stuck in local
minima a lot. The project also uses an artificial neural network that paraphrases sentences. My first three attempts produced nothing but babble, but
the latest one can actually rewrite sentences... unfortunately, it plagiarizes too often, and I think that's mainly because the data I trained it with
is weak. I gathered a bunch of data and have several papers on the subject that I want to read, but I have been busy with other things the past few
days. I am quite convinced that it is possible for an algorithm to produce reasonably good-quality papers using modern technology on a modest computer
desktop. Obviously there won't be a lot of reasoning in such papers, but I think it should be reasonably easy for a computer to produce summaries and
synopses. But enough about that.
I work out almost every day, but I started that fairly recently. I actually think Mozart sounds rather superficial, but Beethoven is awesome, as are
the Bachs.
I know more about chemistry than most non-chemists, but there is certainly a lot I don't know.
[Edited on 4-2-2018 by JJay]
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Reboot
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To my mind, if you don't understand something that well, you will be procedurally driven; if you do understand it, you become model driven. I'm not
the best baker, so I follow the recipe and trust that it works. On the other hand, when it comes to things I'm good at, I work by creating a mental
model of the machine/process/forces at play and operate from that model. As I go, I keep checking if the reality is matching up to the model. If it
doesn't, I adjust the mental model.
It provides a lot of flexibility, but it requires a lot more insight. :-)
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wg48
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I had discussions with a psychologist about the different capabilities of people. He suggested that people who can use their skills learned in one
task or job and apply them to other tasks or jobs have transferable skill. They tend be good employees if they have wide experience even if its not
directly related to their new task or job. Particularly so in tasks or jobs that are dynamic and variable.
He also suggested that procedural people, who I call recipe (parrot or sheep) people, do not tend to have transferable skills while model oriented
people do tend to have transferable skills.
I recall setting up a satellite receiver, VCR and terrestrial broadcast channels with a television for a friend. I was explaining what to do to watch
particular channels on the various inputs when she said “never mind about all that just tell me which buttons to push”. I thought that was what I
was doing but apparently not in recipe type of way. She tended to be very procedural. I created a list of which buttons and switch positions to
select for the channels she would probably want to watch. She did make great cakes but only in her kitchen LOL
I am tend to be model person. If your learn the how and why it applicable to many more situations. It requires less memory but more processing. So
its harder to get going but worth it in the end.
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Magpie
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| Quote: Originally posted by JJay |
I vaguely remember using the Cauchy distribution for something one time, but it's not the holy grail in finance that some people think it is. Most of
the time you are better off with a semi-parametric distribution. |
For the basis of the calculus Cauchy stated that for an equation in a given interval three conditions must exist.
| Quote: Originally posted by JJay |
I actually think Mozart sounds rather superficial, but Beethoven is awesome, as are the Bachs. |
There are only a few of the Bachs' pieces that I enjoy.
I used to feel the same way about Mozart vs Beethoven as you. But now I am in love with several of Mozart's piano concertos. These are:
K. 466 in D minor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-wbyyI-380&t=599s (Play it from the beginning.)
No.9 in E flat, both with Mitsuko Uchida at the piano
K. 467 with Yeol Eum Son at the piano
Lang Lang with Beethoven's 4th piano concerto and Beethoven's Triple Concerto with Ma, Perlman, and Barenboim are tremendous.
[Edited on 4-2-2018 by Magpie]
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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JJay
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I very rarely hear a JS Bach song that I don't like... most of WF Bach's stuff is really obscure because it is a little too dark and boring, but his
good stuff is amazing. Oh and of course CPE Bach is a giant of classical music.
The average desktop computer will have greater cognitive capacity than a human mind within the next two decades.
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Fulmen
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Definitively model driven. I learn by making mental models, usually mechanical.
We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
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Magpie
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For me it depends on the situation. When doing chemistry I follow procedure except for glassware substitutions. Also I use tech grade hardware store
chemicals and compensate for diluted reagents.
When cooking a goose I follow the recipe (my wife's). But when outdoor grilling hamburgers I judge doneness by when the blood comes up. I will
adjust heat, cook time, and smoke as required by ambient conditions.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Melgar
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Chemistry tends to be very procedural in general, but I'd imagine most people here are more in the "model" category. The procedural chemistry types
tend to be on other chemistry forums, writing out procedures where they're calculating how many grams of solid sodium bicarbonate (to add in a single
portion) to neutralize one liter of concentrated sulfuric acid. The average chemistry enthusiast might give you the correct weight in grams, to three
decimal places. Whereas the average SM member would be horrified.
I can't understand anything unless it fits within my model of the way the universe operates. And there's no point in me doing an experiment if it
isn't possible for me to learn anything from it.
The first step in the process of learning something is admitting that you don't know it already.
I'm givin' the spam shields max power at full warp, but they just dinna have the power! We're gonna have to evacuate to new forum software!
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Fulmen
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Models doesn't have to fit into a larger universal system to be useful. For instance almost everything I know about electricity is built around
water/physics-models. It's obviously wrong on a fundamental level, but it's still useful. For example inductors can be modeled as turbines, at least
that's how I understand them.
We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
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Melgar
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Hmm, I guess that's not what I meant by "universe". I mean, that I have a whole model built up in my head of how things are supposed to work. When
there's a discrepancy between my observations and my mental model, I have to resolve that difference (by amending my mental model) in order to learn
anything from the event.
Like with your example with inductors, I had to imagine how that fit in with the way I imagine things. And I realized that any system with inertia
would work, not just turbines. You just have to imagine that water is massless, except when going through a system that has impedance. Then you can
imagine transformers as some sort of hydraulic-driven pump, probably a piston-driven pump to fit with the AC nature of transformer inputs.
The first step in the process of learning something is admitting that you don't know it already.
I'm givin' the spam shields max power at full warp, but they just dinna have the power! We're gonna have to evacuate to new forum software!
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Fulmen
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You're right, it's the inertia that's the real point. But I prefer consistent models, so the water is always massless. And you can easily construct a
"turbine transformer" by coupling two turbines together.
We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
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wg48
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| Quote: Originally posted by Melgar | Hmm, I guess that's not what I meant by "universe". I mean, that I have a whole model built up in my head of how things are supposed to work. When
there's a discrepancy between my observations and my mental model, I have to resolve that difference (by amending my mental model) in order to learn
anything from the event.
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That’s how I work my mental models too.
You can tells modellers they tend to use phrases like “that does not make sense” or “but “that implies”. They ask lots of questions of why
and how's when confronted with some thing that does not fit their mental model or is new..
The procedural people tend to quote sources and take offence easily as if just making a statement gives it some inherent validity. Frequently making
comments about their years of experience. They tend not to engage in discussion as to why it does not make sense. They readily resort to verbal abuse
and name-calling. Perhaps that’s not surprising what other options do they have.
I strongly suspect that most religious, homeopathic, supernatural, over unite, crank cancer treatment, etc believers are strongly procedural. They
have no mental models to invalidity crazy stuff. They don’t have a working BS detector. Effectively they can believe anything particularly if
presented by what they perceive as an authoritative figure and it is not directly contradicted (not in a model way) by an already accepted truth. .
Modellers have problems too. The may reject something that is valid but has no supporting why or how’s because it does not fit their internal
models. Intellectual inertia mostly good but occasionally bad.
PS I must confess I had to look up what Cauchy's integral formula is. If your into maths and calculation I recommend Mathcad. Its can do more maths
than I or most people ever learned and symbolicaly solving as well. Change something in the middle of a calculation and it ripples to the end
automaticaly. Beats paper pen and a calculator easily.
PSS Thinking about the PS replace people with engineer. A faulty pocket calculator know more maths than most people LOL.
[Edited on 5-2-2018 by wg48]
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Tsjerk
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My sister thinks I have a photographic memory, but I know that is far from the truth. I can perfectly remember things I understand (model), even after
twenty years, but I can't remember a simple row of information easily. I only know three phone numbers by heart, and for those I remember a sort of
rhythm.
I do remember the prices I charged customers ten years ago though when they were different from standard and I had to come up with a price in a
logical way.
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wg48
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| Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk | My sister thinks I have a photographic memory, but I know that is far from the truth. I can perfectly remember things I understand (model), even after
twenty years, but I can't remember a simple row of information easily. I only know three phone numbers by heart, and for those I remember a sort of
rhythm.
I do remember the prices I charged customers ten years ago though when they were different from standard and I had to come up with a price in a
logical way. |
I frequently don't remeber my own phone number. My excuse is I hardly ever phone it as its allways engaged LOL
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DrP
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| Quote: Originally posted by Magpie |
There are only a few of the Bachs' pieces that I enjoy.
I used to feel the same way about Mozart vs Beethoven as you. But now I am in love with several of Mozart's piano concertos. These are:
K. 466 in D minor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-wbyyI-380&t=599s (Play it from the beginning.)
No.9 in E flat, both with Mitsuko Uchida at the piano
K. 467 with Yeol Eum Son at the piano
Lang Lang with Beethoven's 4th piano concerto and Beethoven's Triple Concerto with Ma, Perlman, and Barenboim are tremendous.
[Edited on 4-2-2018 by Magpie] |
Brandenburg Concertos are great by Bach... and of course the famous Toccata and Fugue in Dm.
I do like Mozart's Eine Kline Nacht Music - is a very common and popular piece, but I really love it when it gets going. Also - The Magic Flute is
probably some of the only opera I like. That soprano chorus is superb.
All of Beet's symphonies are great.
I like Haydn too - The Haydn string quartets are lovely.... I can't listen to them without laughing! (The major key ones anyway). I've never known
music to actually make me laugh so much (apart from 'Dance of the Hours' from the Fantasia sweet maybe).
\"It\'s a man\'s obligation to stick his boneration in a women\'s separation; this sort of penetration will increase the population of the younger
generation\" - Eric Cartman
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DrP
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PS - er, regarding the OP - I am probably the second type - I am good at taking an idea from one field and trying it out in another. :-) Lateral
thinking I think they call it. :-)
\"It\'s a man\'s obligation to stick his boneration in a women\'s separation; this sort of penetration will increase the population of the younger
generation\" - Eric Cartman
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NEMO-Chemistry
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In your case Magpie its pretty simple, your a good example of use it or loose it. The more you use your brain the more pathways you develop, so the
more that die off are compensated for.
Also wide experience leads to other applications.
Got a paper somewhere that says, the brain rewires 3 times (3 major ones). Birth and toddler stage where you learn a language and balance etc, this is
the stage you learn the most and the quickest. By default however its running full chat, think about the skills learnt from 0-5 years old.
Next big one is 7~8 until puberty roughly its actually until around 12 years old. This is sponge time, the brain can take in immense amounts of
information, its the key learning stage, if you want to learn another language go up against a 8 year old also learning the same language. or playing
piano etc.
If your over 24 then you will find the 8 year old has 6 times the retention and 3X the speed of learning you do.
Next is the teenage big rewire, unlike all other growth phases this is the only time the brain shrinks while in growth. Its severs connections and
rewires so its meaner leaner and faster.
but the down side is this is the last phase you get for growth, its the point your brain fixes your main skills etc. Even if you are not aware of it
this is the point you get a hi res super fantastic highly tuned version of what then slowly dies.
But keep using it and challenging it and it tries to make new connections, the greater the challenge the better the connection.
I will grab some refs when I can.
Just as a side note.
I have been into music for a while, i play the sax. My little sister is 8.5 and never bothered with music, she is learning the piano. i decided to
learn as well.
17.5 V 8.5
I could read music to a more or less degree anyway, she learnt to read it in under two months.
Playing wise she learns and remember a sequence of notes much faster than I do, the music teacher is fascinated seeing as both together. His first
thought was I would be better quicker because of age and experience.
Its kind of one reason I have been reading stuff on the brain, the other reason is purely because I know a stroke victim. I wanted to see why we cant
treat strokes better.
I got a theory actually, but little point going there.
[Edited on 7-2-2018 by NEMO-Chemistry]
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ninhydric1
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The feel like I am both; I use a procedure as the foundation of my experimentation, then build my own models through my own knowledge and experience.
After all, the procedure won't be exactly what one would expect, especially if one, especially I, experience hindrances along the procedure, I attempt
to fix it myself. Chemicals may be impure, or glassware may be not be properly cleaned. In this case then I would have to figure out a solution
myself.
The philosophy of one century is the common sense of the next.
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aga
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Which one is alcohol and which one is money ?
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Magpie
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DrP on Haydn: "I can't listen to them without laughing! (The major key ones anyway). I've never known music to actually make me laugh so much (apart
from 'Dance of the Hours' from the Fantasia sweet maybe)".
Magpie on Mozart: "But now I am in love with several of Mozart's piano concertos. "
I can't listen to Mozart's piano concertos without crying. Same for much of Beethoven. And I fall in love with some of the women in the orchestra.
I am a strongly emotional person.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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NEMO-Chemistry
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| Quote: Originally posted by Magpie |
DrP on Haydn: "I can't listen to them without laughing! (The major key ones anyway). I've never known music to actually make me laugh so much (apart
from 'Dance of the Hours' from the Fantasia sweet maybe)".
Magpie on Mozart: "But now I am in love with several of Mozart's piano concertos. "
I can't listen to Mozart's piano concertos without crying. Same for much of Beethoven. And I fall in love with some of the women in the orchestra.
I am a strongly emotional person.
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Have you considered the possibility your just a plain and simple pervert?  .
Dunno what orchestra you watch, but most I seen there is a good reason they put some the women behind cello's!
Only messing with you Magpie...........only messing with you...honest 
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Magpie
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Check out this violinist at 1:42-1:46 and 3:35 and then tell me if you still think I might be a pervert. Be sure and put the picture in wide screen so
that you get the ultimate picture of her beauty. I am a connoisseur of fine women. And my wife is a fine example of my good taste: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kYJZoDrFeQ
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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NEMO-Chemistry
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| Quote: Originally posted by Magpie |
Check out this violinist at 1:42-1:46 and 3:35 and then tell me if you still think I might be a pervert. Be sure and put the picture in wide screen so
that you get the ultimate picture of her beauty. I am a connoisseur of fine women. And my wife is a fine example of my good taste: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kYJZoDrFeQ
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Definitely your a pervert!! she is not for the over 25's!!!
But ok you got a point, i retract my statement. Shame they got to make that racket though.
I love the wife disclaimer .
So your verdict on Candy Dulfer playing lilly was here with dave stewart? I got a thing about her
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SfSQ3lQmJw
[Edited on 7-2-2018 by NEMO-Chemistry]
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Melgar
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Nothing to see here.
[Edited on 2/8/18 by Melgar]
The first step in the process of learning something is admitting that you don't know it already.
I'm givin' the spam shields max power at full warp, but they just dinna have the power! We're gonna have to evacuate to new forum software!
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