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Author: Subject: TATP--How sensitive is it?
Aqua_Fortis_100%
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[*] posted on 5-1-2008 at 12:25


Quote:
Originally posted by StevenRS :
Your right, it definitely doesn't. AP takes a lot of skill to use safely, even though it is easy to make, and most of all, it takes constant awareness of its danger so you never start to become careless with it, even if you have made it 1000 times. The ability to do that marks experience in this field.


I agree with you.. As steven said , AP is the 'Beginning'
of many 'pyro people' who starts in energetic materials field as amateur.. Just to leave my simple viewpoint I quote this , which IMHO is very comprehensive :

Quote:

Originally posted by Zinc :
I see that a lot of people on this forum don't like (And some eve hate!!) AP. But I don't understand why!! AP is an explosive like any other. Yes it is very sensitive and dangerous and should be made very carefully and in small amounts. But if someone makes AP that doesn't automatically make him a kewl or terrorist!!



[Edited on 5-1-2008 by Aqua_Fortis_100%]




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BromicAcid
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[*] posted on 5-1-2008 at 12:38


Quote:
I see that a lot of people on this forum don't like (And some eve hate!!) AP. But I don't understand why!! AP is an explosive like any other.


The preparation of acetone peroxide is such a simple endeavor that anyone out there who can read a prep can do it, even if the amounts are way out of whack it will usually still work. Because of this threads focusing on the subject usually deal more with the practical application of the material, which is of course a no-no here. However many of the newer people who haven't learned that practical application of explosives is forbidden still start topics on acetone peroxide, which leads the seasoned members here to see thread after thread asking the same questions and to be honest it gets annoying. So I'm sorry if some of us here seem to be a bit short tempered on the subject, I have nothing against the compound itself, just that by now most of the conversation on the subject has petered out and those threads that are created on acetone peroxide discussing something new or novel that deserve a place here inevitably get corralled into practical/tweaking aspects and then steadily go downhill from there.




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Aqua_Fortis_100%
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[*] posted on 5-1-2008 at 13:09


Yeah Bromic , I also agree with you in this point ..which leaves to another similair point..
This forum, like some other foruns, usually deals with tremendously hazardous compounds like potentially explosives and poisons substances..Some persons starting these threads are only interested in chemistry and the rest is the problem.. They use with great irresponsability the compound(s) and make it watched and usually "banned".. For example, there are many explosives, like TNT , PETN ,etc, but they are so rarely used improperly that many people 'forget it' quickly (I never have see I member cursing on these compounds.. (except AP, of course)..maybe because is hard to acquire the necessary reagents like nitric and sulfuric acid , and also somewhat hard to do the necessary procedures like watching temps , heating when necessary, purifying the compounds through solvents,etc ..but yeah..are all much more safe to handle than AP)..But acetone peroxide is very easy to make (as you said anyone can make it, even if nothing know about chemistry) and so backyard teenagers experimenters , 'kelws' and others are severely injure or even die while 'playing' with this stuff or even for no apparent reason..And while the easy exothermic reactions are treated like 'cake recipes' and in widespread in the web, the persons reading will be attempted to try the procedure and many times hurt theyselves.. This will generate the people suspicious and prone to give to the compound the 'guilt' from all the bad things ocurring.. The peoples never assume they are the only responsibles! (this is true also for terrorists and other bitchs)



[Edited on 5-1-2008 by Aqua_Fortis_100%]




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[*] posted on 10-1-2008 at 11:12


There is little chemistry to be gleaned from a backyard synth and what may have been interesting has been discussed at length and to such a degree that it's similar to discussing spark plug gapping on a motorcycle forum. - There's nothing interesting about TATP except perhaps Darwin Awards.
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[*] posted on 27-1-2008 at 07:25


I know that this is a little OT but I didn't want to start a new thread about it. Yesterday I ignited a line of AP and it didn't burn like it normally does with a large fireball and you can see as the flame goes on the line of AP. This time the whole line burned instantly (it was around 25 cm long but not in one piece, somewhere wasn't any AP for several millimeters and in some other places small piles) with a louder thump sound than usually and with a extremely short lasting transparent blue flame. Does anyone know why that happened?



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[*] posted on 30-1-2008 at 05:55


Zinc:
You can find out a Hell of a lot about AP by reading "Chemistry, the Molecular Science" by Moore. Get that book! Start at Chapter one and just keep reading it. The parts about AP will start to hit you. Just keep reading it straight through; the individual chapters are all relational to AP, but you have to read it. It's all though-out that book. Just keep thinking about AP and what you read. Just start at Chapter one and keep reading. If you like AP, that book will have a lot to give you. It even has CD's in it. You'll love, if you give it a chance.

[Edited on 30-1-2008 by quicksilver]
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[*] posted on 30-1-2008 at 09:34


Good one! :D

And in case he's more into the practical applications, Cooper's "Explosive Engineering" is a must-have.

For even more hand-on practice, we recommend Bulson's "Explosive Loading of Engineering Structures".
It's a bit pricey at 243.75$ from the ISEE, but then he doesn't have to rent a Ryder truck. :P
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[*] posted on 31-1-2008 at 10:59


Thank you!

I will try to find those books.




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[*] posted on 27-1-2012 at 10:51


I am sorry to bring up an old topic, but I must say that TATP is not sensitive to (UV) light - I tried magnifying glass (11cm, pretty large) + direct sunlight, but no decomp. or initiation. Only when I put something dark into it, it deflagrated.



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[*] posted on 27-1-2012 at 13:31


Quote: Originally posted by Adas  
I must say that TATP is not sensitive to (UV) light - I tried magnifying glass (11cm, pretty large) + direct sunlight
Most ordinary soda-lime glasses are fairly opaque to UV. Unless you're using a magnifier made of a glass with known transparency to UV or have measured the UV flux yourself, you've hardly demonstrated anything.
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[*] posted on 27-1-2012 at 15:05


Once I read a solid russian book on primary explosives. I made acetonetriperoxide some times. I had no accidents with it, even with dry one. I think, it is really good primer. There was two sorts of AP described. They differ by catalyst, used for prepapration. I do not remember now, but there was an explanation, why H2SO4 shoudn't be used. Use HCl instead. 5 gr of H2O2 (30%) +4 gr of acetone plus 1-2 drops of HCl. Next day wash precipitate and make with it all what you want. I worked with dry AP. Nothing happened. I used small amount to make primers (1-1.5 gr per one). According to aforementiond book, it is less sensitive than mercury fulminate.



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[*] posted on 27-1-2012 at 15:31


Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar  
it is less sensitive than mercury fulminate.


Yeah, and the dumbasses still put mercury fulminate into blasting caps instead of using something less sensitive and - most importantly - LESS TOXIC!

TATP is not so sensitive when the 2 surfaces (or just one of them) is not hard - for example, you can hit TATP hard on wooden surface using a glass bottle, and nothing happens - I tested. Even when the wood seems to be a hard surface, it actually isn't.

People tend to overestimate its unstability, because they don't want any terrorists and kids to make it. Even TATP made at room temp is not nearly as sensitive as some sources say.

[Edited on 27-1-2012 by Adas]




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[*] posted on 27-1-2012 at 16:05


Keep on with this complacent attitude and you will get hurt! AP was not used for commercial or military use for a reason. More tests than you can even comprehend, I'm sure, lead in to its dismissal, even in wartime. It is very sensitive, unstable, (NOT THE SAME!!!), and is just not an effective primary. The physics of it's detonation are much, much less favorable for the initiation of explosive trains than mercury fulminate! Just because you have 10 or even 100 safe experiences with a compound like TATP does not make it any less of a ridiculously sensitive and chemically unstable primary, not to mention it's appalling storage and performance issues. Leave TATP for the Jihadists. It is right up their ally.



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[*] posted on 27-1-2012 at 20:56


Unfortunatelly, I cannot get now aforementioned book. Bagal Lev, Chemistry and technology of primary explosives- excuse me my translation. The only bad thing that was told there about AP that it is volatile compaund. I cannot say iif it is stable or not, but it is very effective primer. I woke up AN+fuel with 1 gr of AP without intermediate charge of something more sensitive. At this same discussion one man told same thing. Military applications has their own set of requirements. Yeah, it is the best for terrorists. There are some methods to prepare AP without H2O2 (using perborates or percarbonates for example, which are freely availible).



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[*] posted on 28-1-2012 at 03:44


The real problem with TATP is its sheer unpredictability . . .
Thanks to this infamous compound, candidates for the DarwinAwards just keep on coming!

P




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[*] posted on 28-1-2012 at 06:10


Quote: Originally posted by Adas  
Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar  
it is less sensitive than mercury fulminate.


Yeah, and the dumbasses still put mercury fulminate into blasting caps instead of using something less sensitive and - most importantly - LESS TOXIC!

TATP is not so sensitive when the 2 surfaces (or just one of them) is not hard - for example, you can hit TATP hard on wooden surface using a glass bottle, and nothing happens - I tested. Even when the wood seems to be a hard surface, it actually isn't.

People tend to overestimate its unstability, because they don't want any terrorists and kids to make it. Even TATP made at room temp is not nearly as sensitive as some sources say.

[Edited on 27-1-2012 by Adas]


I love the one post self KOs to ones rep. You sound like phone with less spelling errors.

People tend to underestimate its sensitivity, you can not reasonably overestimate the chances of being turned to goo.
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[*] posted on 28-1-2012 at 06:36


Neil, I am sorry if you didn't get it the way I thought it.

I meant - if you search on internet, there are things like: "TATP can detonate without a reason or when you sneeze" etc. - this is overestimating.

But, sure, they usually underestimate it while handling it - so many accidents happened, which could have been easily avoided by doing BASIC! safety arrangements. (e.g. - they use sparkler as a fuse + the explosive is not properly covered = detonation by sparks)

[Edited on 28-1-2012 by Adas]




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[*] posted on 28-1-2012 at 09:09


How frustrating. Why is it that we have to wait until someone kills themselves to prove a point?

See: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=14934
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=1570


Quote: Originally posted by DDTea  

You can be empathetic, definitely. It's all very sad.

However, the whole concept of "what not to do" misses the point. Those discussions tend to be along the lines of, "He had an accident because he was drying AP under a heat lamp," or, "Your batch blew up because you were using plastic equipment and a static discharge occurred."

Everyone always thinks that they know more than they do and that accidents won't happen to them. After all, they've read all the "What not to do" accounts/articles and are pretty sure they know what they're doing. Teenagers, especially, have this sort of invincibility complex. Combine that with explosives that will go off with a hair trigger and it's asking for trouble.

But then, we already knew this. So having people blow themselves up as a testament of "what not to do" is the ultimate waste, not the ultimate sacrifice that being a 'martyr' would imply.


Besides, just making AP for practical use isn't doing anything useful for the modern image of the "amateur chemist."




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[*] posted on 28-1-2012 at 11:54


An important point is that static of an energy level so small it can barely be felt (or even NOT felt through physical contact) could be enough to initiate TATP under certain conditions and in certain configurations. Therefore the level of professional handling elements necessary to study energetic peroxide can be very acute. It's also not a particularly strong initiator. HMTD was determined to be a powerful initiator but it had so many handling condition demands and very poor shelf life, what little study of it was dropped as it simply was not worth the trouble, risks, and sensitivities. Somewhere on the Forum may be the level (in Joules) of threshold level which differs for the dimer and trimer of TATP.
The studies are available so that curiosity can be satisfied without making a boring sensitive, simplest thing like TATP.




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[*] posted on 28-1-2012 at 16:00


Assume, I put 1 gr of AP into thin metal tube. Here it is absolutely protected from static, isn't it? There are different sorts of AP- the dangerous one contents C-O-O-H groups instead of C-O-O-C. I do not think, that AP is especially dangerous primer. I had no incidents with it. Mercury fulminate is more dangerous definitly. I tryed to ignite few miligrams of it with simple match. Crystals exploded when the distance between them and flame was definitely more than 4 mm. Well, what sort of primer is the best?
BTW, I have to repeat- HCl must be used as katalyst, not H2SO4!




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[*] posted on 28-1-2012 at 21:55


No, sulfuric acid will work fine as an acid catalyst, and I've seen it done. It is just not as convenient as HCl because additions must be made dropwise using chilled reagents to prevent temperature rise which decomposes the hydrogen peroxide and can leed to the formation of the the less useful dimer. READ, and site sources before spreading falsehoods please.

Also, never pack an organic peroxide in a metal casing. It is not safe from static and other handling issue, (friction, shock, impact, is it acid free???!!). Doing this is not a smart idea. Move on to real primaries if that's your interest. There are many out there that are MUCH more suitable to your needs and there synthesis's are not as stupid easy as TATP, but if you have half a brain and a desire to learn it's easy.




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[*] posted on 28-1-2012 at 23:08


TATP is hazardous stuff... Peroxides instantly go off from the smallest static charges and even the tiniest spark possible. I have used HCL synthesized HMTD for three years on and off. I like the fact you can have ten grams of it light up unconfined and it's just a deflagration. AP has a tendency to have large crystals and recrystallize itself to form larger more sensitive crystals. Leave AP for a week and it will be in a more sensitive form. HMTD is only highly dangerous when it's compacted to a high density or confined.

The only non peroxide primaries I can synthesize are Lead Picrate and DDNP. DDNP is likely the safest primary a amateur can get their hands on. It's initiated reliably with flash. Ag2C2.AgNO3 is hardly safer than a peroxide IMO. What else is there?

I have had a half a gram of HMTD go off a couple times in a cap press but that was just because I was using a hammer instead of a weight. The other time it went off I was compacting it and didn't realize the way I had pre-positioned my fuse was causing the HMTD to flex under HEAVY weight. I wouldn't mess with peroxides without some kind of cap press and blast shield setup. You need to press it to as high of a density as possible to get the best power out of it. Encase it in thin plastic to prevent contact with metals and nitrates/pyro comps.

Why not just use a NPED? There are many ways to initiate secondaries without any need for primarys... Thermite heat shock setups work reliably with some nitrates.

[Edited on 29-1-2012 by freedompyro]
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[*] posted on 28-1-2012 at 23:34


It would be interesting to compare lead picrate and AP... As I know, LP is a poor primes. Lead azide is an excellent one, but its prepaartion is not very simple. DDNP is diazodinitrophenyl, isn't it? But its preparation requires 3 stages at least. if you have 1gr of a primer the worst thing what may happen is one, well, up to two thown away fingers. The only real hazardous situation is when you insert a primer into some larger charge.



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[*] posted on 29-1-2012 at 00:27
Detonating urea nitrate


Can 3 grams of TCAP detonate urea nitrate
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[*] posted on 29-1-2012 at 00:45


Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar  
if you have 1gr of a primer the worst thing what may happen is one, well, up to two thown away fingers. The only real hazardous situation is when you insert a primer into some larger charge.


Why would you be holding a cap by it's end? Only stupid people get their fingers within a couple inches of a compressed peroxide.

You can use a drop cap for larger charges. Properly designed there is no danger unless the fuse spontaneously ignites...
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