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Author: Subject: 5-ATZ(5-Aminotetrazole), the nitrotetrazolate ion and friends
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[*] posted on 1-8-2017 at 19:22


Ok I know this is really tangential post, but copper nitrotetrazolate has possibly the best acronym for an explosive Ive seen so far, maybe barium nitrotetrazolate could compete with it though (BaNTZ i.e. of the dank persuasion) :P
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[*] posted on 2-8-2017 at 13:19


NeonPulse, when you write CuNTZ, do you mean Cu(NTZ)2 or Cu(NTZ)2*NTZ? The second being the intermediate in NaNTZ synthesis.

I synthesised DBX-1 with really good yield a few months back but didn't have time to record a video. It's a really nice primary in every way though so I really should do some tests with it. I also have a small sample of pure 5-nitrotetrazole drying over concentrated sulfuric acid. It was made by extracting an acidified solution of NaNTZ with diethyl ether.
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[*] posted on 3-8-2017 at 14:26


Made an inquiry at Gaylord chemical, said I was looking for CuNTZ, but just got an angry reply back. :D

Do you guys know how stable 5-ATZ is on prolonged storage? An MSDS I found mentioned that it should be kept in an airtight container? Also said it has a distinct smell ( I smell nothing), does it react with oxygen/moisture/sublimate or something? Dangerous?

[Edited on 3-8-2017 by nitro-genes]
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[*] posted on 3-8-2017 at 15:07


Quote: Originally posted by nitro-genes  
Made an inquiry at Gaylord chemical, said I was looking for CuNTZ, but just got an angry reply back. :D



I'm pretty sure their major product is DMSO... probably not a good place to source CuNTZ....




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[*] posted on 6-8-2017 at 17:17


Quote: Originally posted by Dornier 335A  
NeonPulse, when you write CuNTZ, do you mean Cu(NTZ)2 or Cu(NTZ)2*NTZ? The second being the intermediate in NaNTZ synthesis.

I synthesised DBX-1 with really good yield a few months back but didn't have time to record a video. It's a really nice primary in every way though so I really should do some tests with it. I also have a small sample of pure 5-nitrotetrazole drying over concentrated sulfuric acid. It was made by extracting an acidified solution of NaNTZ with diethyl ether.




It was the second one which I did need for the Na NTZ. When I first saw the acronym for the copper II NTZ I got a laugh out of that too. I did a little experimenting with recrystallising some and found the colour changed dramatically to a sky blue with a majority of the green being insoluble and removed by filtration. The junk left in the filter was Kahki green and when I attempted to light it up it was not very explosive and kind of crackled with green flames. The resulting filtrate was allowed to cool slowly in an attempt to grow crystals but they were tiny and there seemed to be an avalanche precipitation. The product was also much more flame sensitive than before. I wondered why Engager never mentioned this in his publication.

A sample of pure 5-NTZ would be great to have. I wanted to attempt it in the future- once I get enough of the sodium salt to experiment with. These compounds take quite some work to make as you know. It's extreme sensitivity and being very hygroscopic is a bother though. I don't want a repeat of the incident I had when trying to make the ditetrazoylhexazadiene. That shook me up good. I still haven't attempted to make it again since that. One day I am going to make it though. I'm fairly sure what went wrong for me there.

As for the 5-Aminotetrazole having a smell, I have not noticed any odour at all in my samples made from both methods. In solution they have a distinct smell though. As far as I know It is quite stable in storage under ambient conditions and slightly elevated temperatures too. I keep mine in an amber jar airtight in a normal temp range 15-30c.



[Edited on 7-8-2017 by NeonPulse]

IMG_4120.JPG - 3.2MBIMG_4122.JPG - 1.8MB




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[*] posted on 7-8-2017 at 12:13


You hydrolyse the copper acid salt during your recrystallisation! You end up with the pale blue Cu(NTZ)2 and 5-NTZ solution.

CuNTZ.PNG - 376kB

The picture is from Primary Explosives by Robert Matyas. There's more information about the salt on pages 201-203 but it's not as good as lead azide and not a very interesting primary.

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[*] posted on 7-8-2017 at 12:51


Quote: Originally posted by Dornier 335A  
You hydrolyse the copper acid salt during your recrystallisation! You end up with the pale blue Cu(NTZ)2 and 5-NTZ solution.



The picture is from Primary Explosives by Robert Matyas. There's more information about the salt on pages 201-203 but it's not as good as lead azide and not a very interesting primary.


I wonder how is it possible to have a copper acid salt with NTZ (nitrotetrazole) what has only one proton?...
Usually acidic salts are possible with diprotic or multiprotic acids...typical example would be H2SO4
==> Na2SO4 (neutral)
==> NaHSO4 (acidic)

It is more complex with some metallic salts that can hydrolyse if too diluted
CuSO4 would be a neutral salt
Cu(HSO4)2 would be an acidic salt
Cu2(OH)2SO4 would be a basic salt

In the case of NTZ...
Cu(NTZ)2 would be neutral
Cu(OH)NTZ would be basic...

I suspect you meant this last one (the basic salt)...because
Cu(NTZ)2 + H2O <====> Cu(OH)NTZ + H-NTZ
The basic salt will indeed be less energetic because the proportion of metallic dead weight % by weight is higher into this than into the neutral salt (what contains more explosive counterpart).

Maybe there was a confusion with tetrazole (and not nitrotetrazole)?
==> Tetrazole contains 2 H that may display acidic properties and what is thus a diprotic acid...but that express only into strongly basic conditions...




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[*] posted on 7-8-2017 at 16:53


Probably all very dangerous and stupid ideas ...but...

Could you perform VNS using hydroxylamine on 5-ATZ or 5-NTZ?
Could 5-hydrazotetrazole react with nitrite under almost neutral conditions to form a pentazadiene bridge or would only 5-azidotetrazole be produced?
What would be the products if diamino tetrazole would couple with a solution of 5-diazotetrazole? Same for di/triaminoguanidine?
Same if 5-nitraminotetrazole or the dinitramine would be reduced with hydrazine?
Would it theoretically be possible to attach a tetrazine-N,N-1,3 dioxide ring to a tetrazole ring, analogous to the already synthesized TTTO? (8 nitrogens in row, so probably not)


[Edited on 8-8-2017 by nitro-genes]
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[*] posted on 8-8-2017 at 07:52


No Philou, "copper acid salt" is just an old name for the intermediate in nitrotetrazole synthesis, Cu(NTZ)2*HNTZ *(H2O)4. It's a pretty accepted term though. So you can see how this could decompose into Cu(NTZ)2 and 5-NTZ. The dibasic salt (Cu(NTZ)2*2Cu(OH)2) exists too but it lacks the properties of a primary.
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[*] posted on 8-8-2017 at 11:54


Quote: Originally posted by Dornier 335A  
No Philou, "copper acid salt" is just an old name for the intermediate in nitrotetrazole synthesis, Cu(NTZ)2*HNTZ *(H2O)4. It's a pretty accepted term though. So you can see how this could decompose into Cu(NTZ)2 and 5-NTZ. The dibasic salt (Cu(NTZ)2*2Cu(OH)2) exists too but it lacks the properties of a primary.

Thank you for the infos and explanations :-).

[Edited on 8-8-2017 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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[*] posted on 8-8-2017 at 16:48


Despite hydrolysis of my product I still got nice yield of NaNTZ crystals upon reacting the copper NTZ with NaOH reducing the solutions volume and cooling. Maybe a little lowered yield but 10-15g. Certainly Enough to experiment further.



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[*] posted on 9-8-2017 at 08:54


Could only find some info on the diammonium, sodium, potassium and silver salt of 5-nitraminotetrazole, so I decided to make about 100 mg's of a copper(II) salt of NATZ by reaction of diammonium 5-nitraminotetrazolate and copper(II) sulfate, which precipitates a light green amorphous precipitate. Not sure if this would be Cu(II)(NATZ) or Cu(II)(NATZ)2, probably the former. It only crackles when touched by flame, but when heated over a flame it first turns brownish/black then detonates with great brisance at around 300 deg C. Also tried to make the Cu(I) salt by reduction with ascorbic, but just got some mustard yellow coloured gel-like crud that wouldn't filter, perhaps the Cu(I) salt is too soluble or too fine a precipitate.

It seems Cu(II)(NATZ) doesn't need too much to make DDT, has a Cu(II)(NATZ)(NTZ) complex ever been made? The nickel(II) salt of 5-nitraminotetrazole also seems very soluble, still would like to try if NATZ may form some more water insoluble and more flame sensitive complexes with nickel(II) nitrate and hydrazine. Are any of these already known?

[Edited on 9-8-2017 by nitro-genes]

Attachment: 200 ug of Cu(II)(NATZ).avi (3.6MB)
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