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Author: Subject: Paranoia while buying reagents?
Fleaker
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[*] posted on 24-3-2007 at 19:25


Quote:
Originally posted by joeflsts
Quote:
Originally posted by obsessed_chemist
I want to make my home "lab" look as professional and innocent as possible. I'm considering putting up a poster of the periodic table, and replacing all of my household chemical labels with my own labels made with my computer and printer, including essential msds info and markings, as well as my own research company heading. Hopefully this will detract from the whole "meth" lab look (I really despise those folks). One thing that helps is that I am also doing research with agriculture which makes my lab look a lot more legitimate.


LOL - I feel better. I have done much of the same thing. In fact I wrote a program that keeps records of every chemical that I own with corresponding MSDS. For chemicals that aren't in what I consider to be "lab" friendly packaging (i.e. consumer packaging) I repackage and relabel with labling that represents what I feel important on each item.

My lab looks like a lab and not a train wreck in my garage.

I'm tired of the assholes that ruin this hobby by making illegal drugs. In fact many come to this forum to "perfect" their trade. I recognize that people don't like the restrictions placed on us, but it was done by officials, a majority of our citizens elected (at least in the US). Like it or not the law is the law.

Joe

[Edited on 23-3-2007 by joeflsts]


Joe any way you could make that program available here?




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joeflsts
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[*] posted on 24-3-2007 at 21:02


I will. It is a WIN32 program written in Borland Delphi. Once I figure out how to distribute it (with the proper files) I will create an installation. I have attached a sample of the chemical management screen.

It uses MySQL for the database.

Any programmers on here will most likely laugh at what I just wrote.



Joe

[Edited on 25-3-2007 by joeflsts]

[Edited on 25-3-2007 by joeflsts]

chemlab_reagent.JPG - 146kB
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[*] posted on 25-3-2007 at 11:12


I have noticed that in due time I can obtain almost every chemical I want. It is really amazing, but in the last 5 years, while I have been active with my chem-hobby and being active on Internet with this, I noticed that many doors opened up.

I found nice suppliers of chemicals from old dismantled labs, people on eBay, selling interesting materials (of course, off-eBay, first you need to get a relation through eBay, and then you receive offers for the really interesting stuff).

Also a nice thing to do is make your own chemicals from simpler and easy to obtain chemicals. In this way, I made a whole bunch of metal salts (sulfates, nitrates and chlorides) and also bromates, iodates from bromide and iodide. My only really OTC chemicals are hydrochloric acid, sulphuric acid, nitric acid, lye, acetone and TCCA/Na-DCCA. A little less OTC are my sets of oxides and carbonates from pottery sullpliers (e.g. of copper, cobalt, iron, nickel, zinc, molybdenum, and many more).




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[*] posted on 29-3-2007 at 13:48


Laws that put the "intention" to do something under juristicion is plain anarchy.

Get the perv/dexies back to the docs and let them prescribe and sell it easily to anyone who thinks he needs it, like it was back in the seventies, -worked like a charm... my aunt was somn 20years on pervitine, never got cancer(although many in her family history had and died of it), was in a good mood and energetic all the time, to her very end with 80years.

I´m somekind aggressive towards any restriction, or that a bad intend is assumed, which it isn´t in any kind of ways, neither is anything profit-driven;

it´sjust that every try, getting things done as easily as they can be, involves chemicals, that for sure are of use in any illegal activity, although illegal activity should be strongly discussed in regard to selfdetermination and the right to have access to
any kind of info and means for fullfillment of your own life.

On the other hand, drug-making is a very interesting and great part of chemistry -if not the biggest, because it addresses to the human nature and the discovery and manufacture of drug and drug-derivatives cover all the features and reaction mechanism of chemistry.

Nice read, on how drugs are found and developed:D: http://suche.aolsvc.de/suche/bilder/detail_view_fs.jsp?refer...

[Edited on 29-3-2007 by nightflight]
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[*] posted on 29-3-2007 at 14:58


Quote:
Originally posted by obsessed_chemist

Incidentally, once I bought some lye at Lowe's at the self check-out, and the computer asked for my phone number, for some kind of receipt purposes or something (but I think I know what it was really for). Of course I gave a false number because I think that's unwarranted, and they never do that to you at the regular checkout.
.


Same story here when I was making a lot of soap. Buying two containers is fine. Buying three - it asks for a phone number.
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[*] posted on 29-3-2007 at 20:45


Quote:

Same story here when I was making a lot of soap. Buying two containers is fine. Buying three - it asks for a phone number.


That's just plain retarded. :mad:




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[*] posted on 30-3-2007 at 01:50


Quote:
Originally posted by Magpie
Welcome to the exciting indoor sport of buying consumer products which you intend to put to a higher purpose. :D

You already understand the rules of this game quite well and should have no problems. As already indicated never let your enthusiasm for your project spill over into telling the ignorant clerk what you are really up to. He will always assume the worst, being already primed by the media to do that.

You will learn to aquire many "hobbies." I will predict that pottery, photography, swimming, and brewing will be among your favorites. ;)


Too fucking true, however, agriculture or hydroponics are also a viable route.




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[*] posted on 31-3-2007 at 06:17


Motto: Never admit, never explain, take the objective, the rest is no strain. Talking on cell phone works for some but I prefer a more direct approach...
Never offer any information when making any purchase. Appear annoyed that a question would even arise during a purchase. While knitting your brows and asking "what are YOU asking me this for?"... I have only had this happen once when I bought a large amount of drain cleaner during a sale. The jackass asked me "what do you want all that drain cleaner fer"? To which I responded as aggressively and quickly; "would you like me to NOT buy sale items at this store?" (then a period of silence while you stare at the clerk and shake your head...) - Now you could explain directly to the clerk what you need the items for but that places you in a submissive position socially in the context of the purchase.
Normally, people would offer that they have a septic system, etc that needed attention but this would lead the purchaser into a position of submission to a questioner-interrogator....a bad move. YOU control the purchase and the interaction. A sales-person has no right to question your purchase unless you give them that right. Imagine your wife was bothering you about not having enough toilet-paper and you went to the store and found some on sale and thought to just buy a hell of a lot....then some snot-nosed twerp asked you "why" you were buying TP....? You'd bite his head off! That's pretty much the natural thing to do....The reason I believe this to be a solid thing to do is that if done consistently there may be less of a tendency to "record" names of purchasers of certain items, etc. The more you give in; the more power to delve into the private business of the customer is relinquished.

[Edited on 31-3-2007 by quicksilver]
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[*] posted on 31-3-2007 at 08:49


I think that's true but then again, if you're paying with credit card there's nothing you can do about them knowing your information. Best thing to do is to look as unsuspecious as possible.
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[*] posted on 31-3-2007 at 18:25


Much of this comes from supposedly "grass-roots" campaigns like the fertilizer Instituter's Be Aware America" campaign. It was fostered on them by the government. Does it help? In the big picture, I think we all know too well that if some madman is Hell bent on hurting innocent people they would have the means to do so. In countries that have MAJOR terroristic issues like in the middle east there seems no really effective method to curtail those who want to do such a thing. Someone mentioned the elimination of glycerin from chemist's shelves, etc. This is a reality in some areas due to some board member's idea of mounting an "anti-terror" campaign via their product offerings. Home Depot was a classic example. When a product is mentioned on the internet as having an alternative use (& that use being possibly destructive) the company swings into action to prevent bad press. That's why it's important to use discretion when speaking about a specific store or product, etc. Best thing is to "U2U" the specifics. :cool:

Try a Google on "fertilizer institute, anti terror campaign" - it's pathetic.

[Edited on 31-3-2007 by quicksilver]
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[*] posted on 28-4-2007 at 03:18


Quote:

YOU control the purchase and the interaction. A sales-person has no right to question your purchase unless you give them that right.


Absolutely. Raise left or right eyebrow and combine that with the facial equivalent of "which hole did you crawl out of?" - shuts em right up.

Better yet, if you like playing it gutsy, leave your purchase at the checkout and walk out of the store. That'll leave the clerk with something to explain to the manager. Or refuse to pay till you get to see the manager and ask him why this fucking clerk is wasting your time and that of everybody else in the line by asking why you'd want to spent money here?




One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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[*] posted on 28-4-2007 at 18:43


I went to the store today trying to find corning ware to use as a crucible. I accidentally told an employee: 'o, i need it for a crucible, for melting metal.' That guy stared at me with a look like he was about to call the cops! As i countinued to walk around the store he caught up with me again and asked me what metal i was using, i told him zinc along with a remotley compedent explanation of why zinc. This guy looked like he was seriously out to get me! Next time i'll just say i'm baking.
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[*] posted on 28-4-2007 at 19:49


I wouldent worry, even I still have enough faith in the powers that be to see metal melting is not illegal.

When I was building my old electric furnace, the pottery store asked me why I (I imagine I don't look like their ususal customer) needed the certain type of clay...I dident even enquire about chemicals, just friggen clay. I responded with the truth..."eh you know any better clays to use to make a refractory good till a thousand degrees or so?". I got a strange look and then a 'have fun with that'.




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[*] posted on 28-4-2007 at 20:04


Heh, I had a similar experience. They said it softens around 2200F (1200C). My clay is actually rated at PCE cone 32, so it turns to goo around 3300F (1800C).

Tim




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[*] posted on 29-4-2007 at 09:13


I live in a rather rural area. I was in a feed store that is the local "get it" store the other day. Some young fellow came in some time back and asked the clerk where the fertilizers were. The WAY he asked, the fact that it wasn't "turn-over time" (the time of year where fertilizers are used when the husks of the previous harvest gets turned over) and the fact that he looked like he never stepped out of a urban environment in his life had an effect on the clerk. The young fellow asked in a manner so foreign to that environment. his affect was foreign to the situation and the fact that fertilizers are NOT used through out the year but in commercial agriculture, used at specific times made him stand out. Even so the clerk just pointed to the sheds and shrugged.
I am somewhat surprised that so many clerks are acting like detectives; what gives????? I can understand the fertilizers but even solvents???!!! Pots and pans????
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[*] posted on 4-5-2007 at 14:06


^^^ Well, dressing and acting the part obviously helps. A CAT or John Deer hat could add a nice touch of authenticity, helping to establish your credibility :D.

If you're there to get nitrate of soda, or 34-0-0, or something potentially suspicious, it couldn't hurt to also ask for a bag of triple super-phosphate, or perhaps some sulfate of potash, both of wish may come in handy for future synths.
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[*] posted on 13-5-2007 at 14:07


Yep, a good tip is to buy phosphate fertilizer as well if you are buying nitrogen fertilizer because they are used together in agriculture.

2 years ago a clerk was intrested in what I am going to do with KNO3 fertilizer. Luckily I knew KNO3 is used specially for tomatos's so I told him that my grandmother asked me to buy it for her.
Another issue from the past was when I was buying KMnO4 and glycerine from drugstore. The clerk asked me if I was making nitro glycerine or anything. I was like hell no, my sister just has a cough and she needs KMnO4 for gurgling and glycerine to lubricate her throat with. The clerk seemed to be satisfied with my answer.

It's very strange that clerks see potential terrorist/meth in customers who buy ordinary goods, that CAN be abused, because we don't have any anti-chemistry propagandas here in Estonia.


P.S. Hope me English is understandable

[Edited on 14-5-2007 by DDoS]
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[*] posted on 14-5-2007 at 03:49


I wonder how he had reacted if you'd have said "hey, that's a good idea, thanks!" when he asked if you were making NG.
My local paint supplies/chemicals store doesn't seem to care much about what I want to do with the stuff I buy, I've got KNO3, acetone, HCl, NaOH, H2O2, Fe2O3 and sulfur without any questions (not all at the same time).
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[*] posted on 25-7-2008 at 07:17


Quote:
Originally posted by nightflight
Laws that put the "intention" to do something under juristicion is plain anarchy.

Get the perv/dexies back to the docs and let them prescribe and sell it easily to anyone who thinks he needs it, like it was back in the seventies, -worked like a charm... my aunt was somn 20years on pervitine, never got cancer(although many in her family history had and died of it), was in a good mood and energetic all the time, to her very end with 80years.

I´m somekind aggressive towards any restriction, or that a bad intend is assumed, which it isn´t in any kind of ways, neither is anything profit-driven;

it´sjust that every try, getting things done as easily as they can be, involves chemicals, that for sure are of use in any illegal activity, although illegal activity should be strongly discussed in regard to selfdetermination and the right to have access to
any kind of info and means for fullfillment of your own life.

On the other hand, drug-making is a very interesting and great part of chemistry -if not the biggest, because it addresses to the human nature and the discovery and manufacture of drug and drug-derivatives cover all the features and reaction mechanism of chemistry.

Nice read, on how drugs are found and developed:D: http://suche.aolsvc.de/suche/bilder/detail_view_fs.jsp?refer...

[Edited on 29-3-2007 by nightflight]


There is so much wrong with the "War on Drugs" it's hard to pick a place to start. "Intent" is a good one. When did law enforcement become psychic? The Intent laws are unconstitutional. It's an assumption of guilt. Now if they catch the guy in the act of selling it, then they can charge him with that crime. I don't care if one is caught with 50 pounds of it you simply can't charge him with distribution unless he is caught distributing.
And why the hell are the drugs illegal any way? What happened to pursuit of happiness? If my idea of happiness is frying my brain cells, looking twice my age, sitting in the corner drooling but never depriving anybody else of their rights or property, what business is it of anyone else?
No, legislating morality is not government's job. Protecting me from my own stupidity is not their job either. Protect me from someone else, that is the job given by the Constitution.
And by the way, many of the meth heads cooking in the kitchen do it for their own personal consumption. Yes, they often come to these forums to perfect their craft in order to make a cleaner, safer (if that term can apply to meth) product.
If they aren't hurting anybody else, leave them the hell alone. It's not anyone's business but their own what they do to their own body's.




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evil_lurker
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[*] posted on 25-7-2008 at 10:41


I think things have reached somewhat of an equilibrium in the USA.

1. War on Drugs, specifically meth. Small clandestine labs are becoming quite rare breeds due to PSE quantity restrictions. Foilants have taken care of the rest. P2P is almost a non-issue, as aquiring the reagents, equipment, and knowlege to produce this compound is daunting to say the least in the USA. Because of this Big Government has now reached the point of diminishing returns on domestic controls and is focusing on smuggling from mexico. On the home front, most importantly it is the average lower ranking business employees that are starting to forget and being less vigilant.

2. War on Terror. The economy has taken center stage over the war on the terror. The Republicans message of fearmongering is no longer working. People are more worried about $4 gasoline and putting food on the table than getting blown up by some unknown suicide bomber. Alternative energy has created a nice grassroots movement. All that is needed is to say "oh this is for such and such, I'm usng it to try and come up with something to make my car run cheaper".

3. The recession. The recession has hit governement hard in the pocketbook causing record deficits from lack of tax revenue. The mortgage crisis has further put the government in the red. With the price of fuel at an all time high lengthy surveilance and investigations operations have been curtailed. Simply put there ain't as much money for special drug task forces and LE operations and most importantly "drug awareness campaigns". Even the DEA has been cut back from 2006 levels. Its going to get even worse for the government in the next few year as eventually the huge federal deficit will have to be dealt with. When that happens the letter people are in for lean times.

4. Businesses have instituted sales policies designed to restrict sales to non-institutional persons. Every business knows that anytime the government gets involved with anything they do its going to cost them money. Therefore to keep the gov't out of the busines, they have taken steps to make themselves "unattractive".

I hate to get off on a political tangient, but aquiring reagents today in the USA might as well be tied to the political winds of change. Really there is nothing else standing in the way of whoever purchasing whatever other than governmental bureaucracy.

Things will probably be doing some serious changing in the next year. Its hard to say what the next president's administration policies will be. I figure Obama will get elected president. If McCain gets it we are all fucked over here as it will be 4 more years of Bush.

One thing for certain is the well is going to eventually go dry.




Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in beer.
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[*] posted on 26-7-2008 at 14:23


I live in england and from what i can tell chems are a little easier to get here than england (they may not be though :P)
I can go to my local farming shop and pick up a 5kg bag of 'Nitrate of Soda' for about £3 and 3kg of sodium chlorate weedkiller for around £2. I have known the shop owner for a while, i am sure he knonws i dont use the chems for what they r supposed to be used for but he doesnt realy care... i just stay clear of the NH4NO3, even though it is like 25Kg for £8 !!! :(

My tips for keeping clean in the eyes of the law are this: ( it is basically a sum up of the whole thread :P)
1. keep a neat looking lab, no broken (iodine stained :P) glassware around.
2. put lots of posters up, i have a big periodic table and loads of chemistry notes form my chemisrty textbook,
3. keep notes on all the chemicals you buy, keep the recipts
4. keep a msds for each chem you have
5. label chemicals clearly and add the appropriate hazard warnign label.
6. finally dont stock things like iodine and red phosphorous together. i personally choose not to own iodine and red phosphorous instead.
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joeflsts
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[*] posted on 26-7-2008 at 15:22


Quote:
Originally posted by Picric-A
I live in england and from what i can tell chems are a little easier to get here than england (they may not be though :P)
I can go to my local farming shop and pick up a 5kg bag of 'Nitrate of Soda' for about £3 and 3kg of sodium chlorate weedkiller for around £2. I have known the shop owner for a while, i am sure he knonws i dont use the chems for what they r supposed to be used for but he doesnt realy care... i just stay clear of the NH4NO3, even though it is like 25Kg for £8 !!! :(

My tips for keeping clean in the eyes of the law are this: ( it is basically a sum up of the whole thread :P)
1. keep a neat looking lab, no broken (iodine stained :P) glassware around.
2. put lots of posters up, i have a big periodic table and loads of chemistry notes form my chemisrty textbook,
3. keep notes on all the chemicals you buy, keep the recipts
4. keep a msds for each chem you have
5. label chemicals clearly and add the appropriate hazard warnign label.
6. finally dont stock things like iodine and red phosphorous together. i personally choose not to own iodine and red phosphorous instead.


Over time I've built a pretty well stocked hobby lab. At first, due to many posts on here, I was very paranoid about buying reagents. In fact I even was nervous buying Sodium Hydroxide. Now, I have pretty much what I need and can perform just about any hobby experiment I want to perform.

I notice that about every 2-3 months the black helicopter posts get brought to the front on this forum. I think that's good because it probably discourages kewls and cooks from spamming the site and buying from suppliers willing to help us hobbyists.

Joe
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[*] posted on 26-7-2008 at 18:24


Joe says:
Quote:

Now, I have pretty much what I need and can perform just about any hobby experiment I want to perform.


I find that just the opposite is true. I have picked all the low hanging fruit. Now it seems that the experiments I want to perform require some reagent that I can't get without feeling paranoid about it. These experiments are not exotic or complex, just those I find in my 1962 organic lab manual from college days. These reagents are usually for sale over the internet but I feel uncomfortable ordering based on (1) what I read here, (2) it's a DEA listed precursor, or (3) the seller requires the filling out of some kind of DEA declaration form. I think acetic anhydride and malonic acid are good examples.
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[*] posted on 27-7-2008 at 02:49


i feel the same, i have all the basics, but when you want to perform some slightly more advanced experiments and you need slightly 'exotic' chemicals you can never get hold of them :(
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[*] posted on 27-7-2008 at 10:45


Quote:
Originally posted by Magpie
Joe says:
Quote:

Now, I have pretty much what I need and can perform just about any hobby experiment I want to perform.


I find that just the opposite is true. I have picked all the low hanging fruit. Now it seems that the experiments I want to perform require some reagent that I can't get without feeling paranoid about it. These experiments are not exotic or complex, just those I find in my 1962 organic lab manual from college days. These reagents are usually for sale over the internet but I feel uncomfortable ordering based on (1) what I read here, (2) it's a DEA listed precursor, or (3) the seller requires the filling out of some kind of DEA declaration form. I think acetic anhydride and malonic acid are good examples.


You can get Malonic acid in small quantities if you look. Texas has outlawed it however due to the abundance of meth labs in the state. Acetic Anydride has a threshold limit. Don't buy enough to raise a flag. If you look around you can find it for sale to hobbyists as well.

Like you the stories on here scared me at first. Then if you peel the onion you'll find most of the worst stories are really about something else and a chemical was found that just added to the list of "offenses".

If you make and sell drugs you will get caught - plain and simple. If you are caught buying drugs for personal consumption and you get a knock on the door every single chemical you have will be used against you.

Common sense.

Joe
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