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PhenethylamineMachine
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Fun Phosphorus Speculations
Just some thought for fun:
While listening to a UFO enthusiast that I know ramble on about the Egyptians and light bulbs I was instantly reminded of hennig Brandt and his "cold
fire" bulbs. I think a white phosphorus lamp is far more likely than the Egyptians having developed advanced technology or having extraterrestrial
friends.
I'm sure you all know how phosphorus was discovered.
In 1669 Hennig Brandt, an alchemist, was working with urine in search for the lapis philosophorum. Hennig ultimately ended up stumbling upon "cold
fire", which was a mixture containing white phosphorus obtained from urine along with some other common ingredients in a glass bulb. The result was
light emanating from the substance(s) contained in the flask.
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How to Make Phosphorus
Allow urine to sit in an open container for 7 days.
Mix two tablespoons of finely-powdered charcoal and two tablespoons of powdered cinnamon into the urine and stir.
Pour the urine/charcoal dust and cinnamon mixture into a glass retort with a glass tube leading into a second beaker filled with plain water.
Heat the retort containing the urine mixture using your torch. Be sure to wear protective clothing, eye protection and a breathing mask.
Allow the vapors from the urine mixture to bubble through the plain water. A yellow or white waxy substance will collect in the bottom of your water
beaker. This is phosphorous. Do not expose it to the air or it may ignite spontaneously. After being exposed to light your phosphorous should glow
very brightly in the dark for several hours.
https://sciencing.com/make-phosphorus-4524329.html
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You know how in Egypt there are temples with detailed carvings on the walls where light would not have been readily available?
In these temples mirrors reflecting sunlight would not have been effective, and evidence for fire being used is non-existent.
Do you think it's possible that the ancient Egyptians might have also known how to create phosphorus lamps starting from urine?
Could carvings such as "the dendera bulb" actually be representing phosphorus lamps?
keep in mind that this is all just for fun, I don't take these notions seriously, but find it entertaining to speculate.
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MrHomeScientist
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I think it's interesting to compare the above process for making phosphorus to the ones being done in the phosphorus thread. This one seems immensely
easier, with practically free ingredients, yet no one seems to want to replicate it! Because of the horrible stench, perhaps?  Or is there another more practical reason?
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Magpie
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Stench is no problem, just turn on the hood fan.
I believe the phosphorus in urine is in the form of phosphates, ie, locked to oxygen.
This simple procedure gives no hint of the tremendous heat required to reduce a phosphate to phosphorus.
What the heck is cinnamon for? Mask the stench? It would just be a reductant less efficient than charcoal.
Try it yourself if you think it is so simple.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Sulaiman
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Burning phosphorus would create clouds of P2O10 smoke
- killing the viewers,
and the fumes would combine with water and erase the drawings so there would be nothing to view.
Apart from that it may be OK
CAUTION : Hobby Chemist, not Professional or even Amateur
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Ubya
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Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman  | Burning phosphorus would create clouds of P2O10 smoke
- killing the viewers,
and the fumes would combine with water and erase the drawings so there would be nothing to view.
Apart from that it may be OK |
phosphoric acid from pee wax candles, a simple stick on fire is too mainstream for ancient egyptians
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feel free to correct my grammar, or any mistakes i make
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MrHomeScientist
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| Quote: Originally posted by Magpie | Stench is no problem, just turn on the hood fan.
I believe the phosphorus in urine is in the form of phosphates, ie, locked to oxygen.
This simple procedure gives no hint of the tremendous heat required to reduce a phosphate to phosphorus.
What the heck is cinnamon for? Mask the stench? It would just be a reductant less efficient than charcoal.
Try it yourself if you think it is so simple. |
I hope I didn't come off as condescending; that wasn't the intent. I just know that it was made from urine back in ye olde times and haven't seen many
try to replicate it. I wondered if this was because of the unpleasantness of the reagents or whether 'modern' methods are easier in some other way I
haven't understood.
While a hood fan might work for you, your neighbors might not be so happy about it!
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mayko
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Brand's process was also a massive undertaking (partly because it was inefficient) and iirc required many, uh, donations from his neighbors:
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Brand's process yielded far less phosphorus than it could have done. The salt part he discarded contained most of the phosphate. He used about
5,500 litres of urine to produce just 120 grams of phosphorus. If he had ground up the entire residue he could have got many
times more than this (1 litre of adult human urine contains about 1.4g of phosphorus salts, which amounts to around 0.11 grams of pure white
phosphorus).
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hennig_Brand
al-khemie is not a terrorist organization
"Chemicals, chemicals... I need chemicals!" - George Hayduke
"Wubbalubba dub-dub!" - Rick Sanchez
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sodium_stearate
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With just a few more added free ingredients,
you could make up a batch of jenkum. 
"Opportunity is missed by most people
because it is dressed in overalls and it
looks like work" T.A. Edison
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PhenethylamineMachine
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| Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman | Burning phosphorus would create clouds of P2O10 smoke
- killing the viewers,
and the fumes would combine with water and erase the drawings so there would be nothing to view.
Apart from that it may be OK |
Have you ever actually seen a phosphorus lamp?
We made phosphorus lamps from urine in my chemistry class in 11th grade, it's actually pretty simple.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GIGOF_In9BM
In this one minute youtube video titled "Strange story of how phosphorus was discovered"* you can see how simple it is to create a phosphorus lamp.
*the link is a mobile youtube link, if it does not work, type: "Strange story of how phosphorus was discovered" into youtube, it's a 1:37 video.
I expected there to be a joke or two, and as I said before this is not something I take seriously, it's all in good fun, but honestly, if one were to
speculate within the realms of what is possible, I think phosphorous lamps generated from urine are a better explanation than "Egyptians had advanced
technology" or "Egyptians had extra-terrestrial buddies who gave them technology"
Again, this is all in good fun, I am not trying to imply that the Egyptians had phosphorus lamps, just speculating for fun, I was more or less trying
to offer a better possible explanation than "ancient tech" or "aliens" when debating with those who support these theories about ancient Egyptians.
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PhenethylamineMachine
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| Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist | | I think it's interesting to compare the above process for making phosphorus to the ones being done in the phosphorus thread. This one seems immensely
easier, with practically free ingredients, yet no one seems to want to replicate it! Because of the horrible stench, perhaps? Or is there another more practical reason? |
I was wondering the same thing.
This route to obtaining phosphorus surly has it's setbacks and limitations, and the procedure does not give very high yields, but it is a viable
route. ...it may not be the best route, or the most practical, but it is a viable route
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PhenethylamineMachine
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I expected some jokes.
...but in all honesty, the human body is a chemical laboratory.
Ill give you a quick hypothetical example:
Let's say you have a compound, and you want to obtain the same compound only with a certain section cleaved off, so, you do your research and find
that in the laboratory the procedure would require many steps, chemicals that are difficult to work with, and also could be very hazardous, but you
also found that the human body could metabolize this compound into your desired cleaved compound, which it would then excrete through urine. In theory
you could consume your compound, collect your urine, and then extract your desired cleaved compound from it. This is all just hypothetical, but in the
situation described your body is working as the laboratory... biosynthesis is a very interesting concept.
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PhenethylamineMachine
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If this next question is not appropriate I encourage a moderator to remove it.
You know how you hear rumours that methamphetamine is manufactured with urine?
Do you think these amphetamine "chemists" were actually obtaining the white phosphorus allotrope from urine, converting it to the red allotrope, then
using it to synthesize illicit stimulants?
Is this the source of these rumours?
Well, the rumours range from "people pee in meth" to "people use pee to make meth", and I always assumed that it was just nonsense.
important note:
While I focus a good deal of my research on phenethylamines, I truly despise the illicit manufacture of methamphetamine and the effects that the
compound has on individual people, on their families, and on their communities. I even have to refer to the psychedelic amphetamines as
"alpha-methyl-phenethylamines" in normal conversation simply so I can avoid all the negative connotations attached to the word "amphetamine", becuase
people automatically assume you are talking about stimulants, dopamine releasing agents/dopamine reuptake inhibitors rather than psychedelics,
5-HT2a/c receptor agonists. I have no interest in illicit stimulants or the means by which they are produced.
I am only including this note because I always feel that I have to make this clear, as many people misunderstand the nature of my interests and the
compounds associated with them.
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LearnedAmateur
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Considering the fact electrical cells have been around for thousands of years, using acidic fruit juices and simple electrodes, as well as
fermentation to get ethanol about 5000 years ago, I have no doubts that human/animal products have been used for advanced and highly intuitive uses
within ancient and Neolithic societies. If there’s one thing humans have always been good at, it’s chemistry and figuring out how to make use of
literally every natural resource available.
In chemistry, sometimes the solution is the problem.
It’s been a while, but I’m not dead! Updated 7/1/2020. Shout out to Aga, we got along well.
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PhenethylamineMachine
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Speaking of possible ancient chemistry:
There is a biblical story about Elijah and the "priests of Baal", ultimately it comes down to a competition between to two religious factions, each
builds an alter and the faction worshiping the true God will have their alter catch fire. Elijah builds his alter in a very specific way, including a
ditch dug around the alter. Elijah then has his followers pour water on the alter and it catches fire. Elijah wins, and the followers of Baal are
brutally murdered.
I remember seeing some science show where it was proposed that Elijah used calcium oxide, sulphur, and naphtha mixed into a paste which was applied to
the wood to start the fire with water.
The idea was that at some point he had obtained this chemical knowledge, and that he basically used this discovered knowledge of chemistry to decieve
(and murder) the followers of Baal, making them believe that God set the fire, when in reality it was some clever chemistry.
It is plausible, Elijah had access to the needed materials.
Calcium oxide and water would generate an exothermic reaction, generating temperatures of over 600°F, which should be sufficient to cause the sulphur
to flash igniting the naphtha accelerant causing the alter to catch fire. The note that Elijah dug a Dutch around the alter is important as well, as
the water would have to drain into this ditch to cause ignition without causing the fire to be extinguished
I am sure that a good deal of "magic" reported throughout history in reality was chemistry of some sort, I mean, who knows how many people made these
discoveries and kept them secret.
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aga
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Me, but i'm not saying anything.
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BromicAcid
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Source?
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PhenethylamineMachine
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Just for fun, let's compare brandt's "cold fire lamp" to the egyptian "dendera bulb"
 
Now, let's view a pictured an actual phosphorus lamp: 
according to the individual that I was debating there are egyptian temples full of detailed wall carvings where light would not have been available,
even using mirrors reflecting the sun, there is also no evidence that fire was used. Now, UFO enthusiasts think that this must mean that the
Egyptians had modern technology or that friendly extra-terrestrials were giving them advanced technology, when I think there are other much more
reasonable and rational explanations. The lamps made from glowing phosphorus which was obtained from urine being one of them.
Any way, very interesting stuff none the less, fun thoughts.
Sometimes it's nice to take a break from strictly fact based discussion and let loose with some wild speculations.
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PhenethylamineMachine
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Mea culpa, the 600°c was related to a thermal decomposition reaction related to the substance, thank you for catching that.
The heat produced by the exothermic reaction generated by the calcium oxide and water should be sufficient though, reaching 300°c or more, sulphur
should ignite at 200°c, and the exothermic heat from the calcium oxide coupled with the heat generated from the ignition of the sulphur should be
enough to ignite the naphtha accelerant thus causing the alter to catch fire.
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aga
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The troubling thing with the Egyptian depictions is that curly wire in the middle - not at an edge, and not two wiggly wires.
Edit:
Some speculate that the flower-stem part at the bottom is just a support structure for the 'lamp'.
Many argue that there is significance in the two guys playing rock-stone-scissors and the woman watching TV, also that the 'stem' ends where there is
a small monkey on acid balancing a ball on his head.
[Edited on 21-4-2018 by aga]
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PhenethylamineMachine
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If only you existed in biblical times, you could use your chemical secrets to take over the world.
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PhenethylamineMachine
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga | | The troubling thing with the Egyptian depictions is that curly wire in the middle - not at an edge, and not two wiggly wires. |
Yeah, I thought of that as well, perhaps it's a representation of "glowing", like it's the glow of the phosphorus filling the bulb.
But yeah, you're right, its a long shot.
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aga
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What do you mean IF i existed in Biblical times ?
Get with the program.
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BromicAcid
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Source?
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Melgar
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I think that Egyptians probably used those lamps like the genie was trapped in in the movie Aladdin.
Problem solved.
The first step in the process of learning something is admitting that you don't know it already.
I'm givin' the spam shields max power at full warp, but they just dinna have the power! We're gonna have to evacuate to new forum software!
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VSEPR_VOID
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| Quote: Originally posted by Melgar | I think that Egyptians probably used those lamps like the genie was trapped in in the movie Aladdin.
Problem solved. |
Does that count as a citation?
Within cells interlinked
Within cells interlinked
Within cells interlinked
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