| Pages:
1
2 |
CobaltChloride
Hazard to Others
Posts: 239
Registered: 3-3-2018
Location: Romania
Member Is Offline
|
|
How toxic is methanol actually?
Sorry if this has been asked before, but how toxic is methanol actually? It is said to be highly toxic, but the LD50 is said to be 5628 mg/kg, which
is far higher than other common organic solvents. Also it is only a 1 on the NFPA health scale. So how dangerous is it to take a few strong whiffs of
methanol vapors if you're distilling it (outside, of course, but taking a few whiffs is inevitable), how dangerous is it if you spill a bit on your
hand, but you immediately wash your hands and how dangerous would it be to use it at room temperature in a room with an open window? Is there any
serious danger of being harmed (besides the dangers posed by its property of being very flammable) in these situations?
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
LD50 5.6g/kg means i need to drink about half a pint of the stuff before expecting to die, although the body is severely damaged before the amount
required to cause death is ingested.
Drinking even a small amount can cause blindness.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1771266/
A single whiff is inconsequential. Sustained whiffing would be Bad.
A small spill on the hand has never caused me any problem.
Edit:
As with ALL chemicals, care when handling them to Prevent the chemical entering your body is vitally important, via the skin, ingestion or inhalation.
[Edited on 21-4-2018 by aga]
|
|
|
CobaltChloride
Hazard to Others
Posts: 239
Registered: 3-3-2018
Location: Romania
Member Is Offline
|
|
Thanks! I have one more question I forgot to ask: Is the odor of the methanol a good warning sign of potentially dangerous acute exposure? I smelled
it before and it has a much fainter smell than either ethanol or isopropanol even though it is more volatile.
[Edited on 21-4-2018 by CobaltChloride]
|
|
|
WangleSpong5000
Hazard to Others
Posts: 129
Registered: 3-11-2017
Location: Oz
Member Is Offline
Mood: Curious
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by CobaltChloride  | Thanks! I have one more question I forgot to ask: Is the odor of the methanol a good warning sign of potentially dangerous acute exposure? I smelled
it before and it has a much fainter smell than either ethanol or isopropanol even though it is more volatile.
[Edited on 21-4-2018 by CobaltChloride] |
As said above a small amount can cause blindness if ingested.
I don't think the odor of a substance can be a reliable metric of toxicity. For example Trichloromethane smells like pine lime ice blocks (imo) while
dichloromethane smells like something I would clean a large filthy engine block with... DCM is considered safer than chloroform as it is less
carcinogenic. I have no idea what the LD50 of either is but I know which one I'd prefer to use... not the nice smelling one unfortunately...
Hyperbole be thy name
|
|
|
CobaltChloride
Hazard to Others
Posts: 239
Registered: 3-3-2018
Location: Romania
Member Is Offline
|
|
My question was more like this: Is a dangerous concentration of methanol detectable by smell? Its smell is very faint so I'm not sure whether a
dangerous concentration is detectable by smell, like it is for toluene, xylene, hydrochloric acid, chlorine, DCM etc. I wasn't asking whether bad
smell equals toxicity. Sorry if it wasn't properly formulated, but as you can see from my location, English is not my native language.
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
Man cannot live by Smell alone.
Edit:
If you smell something you are not accustomed to, and can positively identify, do an Elvis ASAP (leave the building)
[Edited on 21-4-2018 by aga]
|
|
|
WangleSpong5000
Hazard to Others
Posts: 129
Registered: 3-11-2017
Location: Oz
Member Is Offline
Mood: Curious
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by CobaltChloride | | My question was more like this: Is a dangerous concentration of methanol detectable by smell? Its smell is very faint so I'm not sure whether a
dangerous concentration is detectable by smell, like it is for toluene, xylene, hydrochloric acid, chlorine, DCM etc. I wasn't asking whether bad
smell equals toxicity. Sorry if it wasn't properly formulated, but as you can see from my location, English is not my native language.
|
Sorry. I probably misunderstood your original post... sounds like me.
Good question though... I would say that if a group of substances, ie alcohols in this case, become more noticeabley toxic as concentration increases
by default. EtOH is a good example of something that lets you know how nasty it really is and the higher the conc the more obvious this becomes. I'd
say methanol works in a similar fashion yet I don't think there is any precise sensory point that matches any meaningful level/metric of toxicity.
Hyperbole be thy name
|
|
|
Tsjerk
International Hazard
Posts: 3022
Registered: 20-4-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mood
|
|
As long as you don't drink the stuff you should be fine. On your hands the worst it can do is give you a dry skin, it doesn't penetrate the skin.
You shouldn't be working in a badly ventilated area where large amount are being spilled/boiled off or something, but a besides that you don't have to
worry.
As with most chemicals: As long as you don't ingest them, they are pretty harmless.
|
|
|
LearnedAmateur
National Hazard
Posts: 513
Registered: 30-3-2017
Location: Somewhere in the UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: Free Radical
|
|
To me, methanol smells pretty much identical to ethanol, as it does with other lower MW alcohols although it tends to get more ‘solventy’ with
more carbon atoms - for instance, isopropanol, to me, smells like halfway between ethanol and acetone. The sweetish odour is good for determining the
presence of alcohols but distinguishing between them is almost impossible unless you are quite heavily trained to do so.
In chemistry, sometimes the solution is the problem.
It’s been a while, but I’m not dead! Updated 7/1/2020. Shout out to Aga, we got along well.
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
Hence the 'heavy training' pays off, if you ever need it 
Edit:
Personally ethanol and methanol smell distinctly different.
[Edited on 21-4-2018 by aga]
|
|
|
CobaltChloride
Hazard to Others
Posts: 239
Registered: 3-3-2018
Location: Romania
Member Is Offline
|
|
For me, methanol, ethanol and isopropanol smell quite differently. Methanol has a faint, sweet, alcoholic smell, ethanol has a sharp alcoholic smell
and isopropanol is somewhat similar to both acetone and ethanol, but a bit sharper than both. I think this is attributed to the fact that the I never
smelled any isopropanol until about 6 months ago and noses tend to be more wary of newer smells.
|
|
|
WangleSpong5000
Hazard to Others
Posts: 129
Registered: 3-11-2017
Location: Oz
Member Is Offline
Mood: Curious
|
|
So if EtOH and MeOH smell similar and share the distinct 'moonshine' smell and isopropyl alcohol smells somewhere between that odor and the sharp,
sweet 'chemical' smell of acetone (i agree with that observation) is it because your iso as Propan-2-ol is so close to acetone being propan-2-one as
to be in the middle structurally as well as in the olfactory sense?
I wonder what the isomer of iso smells like? Being a primary alcohol and what not...
Hyperbole be thy name
|
|
|
LearnedAmateur
National Hazard
Posts: 513
Registered: 30-3-2017
Location: Somewhere in the UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: Free Radical
|
|
I’ve noticed that ethanol is slightly sharper as well, having used both at >99% during high school OC (methanol is more like a vodka smell IMO)
but it’s not a reliable way to tell the difference at the end of the day, as even slight contamination may spoil the odour. I’ve used isopropanol
and been around acetone nail varnish remover quite a bit, they’re all quite characteristic odours to be fair and it’s unlikely that you’ll
forget them in the long run, especially with a whiff every now and again.
In chemistry, sometimes the solution is the problem.
It’s been a while, but I’m not dead! Updated 7/1/2020. Shout out to Aga, we got along well.
|
|
|
happyfooddance
National Hazard
Posts: 530
Registered: 9-11-2017
Location: Los Angeles, Ca.
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Although I hesitate to respond for fear of being aga'd... I will share my experience.
Methanol, contrary to what you would expect, is less detectable than ethanol. They smell almost identical in certain concentrations. I can tell subtle
differences between substances, by smell and taste, usually. But I cannot distinguish MeOH and EtOH mixtures by smell or taste, at all.
If they are pure, ethanol is more pungent... But if they are not pure, and are mixtures with water... Damn, it is hard to tell. If you can't separate
it via distillation, then don't mess with it, in this case.
|
|
|
DavidJR
National Hazard
Posts: 908
Registered: 1-1-2018
Location: Scotland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Tired
|
|
Honestly even taking a big whiff from my bottle of dry methanol I can barely smell it at all. Much, much weaker odour than ethanol or isopropanol, to
me at least. So I definitely don't think it's wise to rely on your sense of smell to indicate safe concentration. I wouldn't worry about a brief
exposure to high concentration of the vapours though.
|
|
|
JJay
International Hazard
Posts: 3440
Registered: 15-10-2015
Member Is Offline
|
|
In my limited understanding of the subject, methanol is metabolized into formaldehyde, which is directly toxic. The body preferentially metabolizes
ethanol, so it is sometimes used as an antidote for methanol ingestion.
|
|
|
Deathunter88
National Hazard
Posts: 507
Registered: 20-2-2015
Location: Beijing, China
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Like some of the others, I can't really smell methanol as well. I have to practically stick my nose into a container of it to get a good whiff.
However, when using it there is always a slightly sweet smell that I do notice.
As long as you don't ingest it, you can pretty much treat methanol like ethanol. Worst you will get is a headache, which means it's time to stop.
[Edited on 22-4-2018 by Deathunter88]
|
|
|
LearnedAmateur
National Hazard
Posts: 513
Registered: 30-3-2017
Location: Somewhere in the UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: Free Radical
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by JJay | | In my limited understanding of the subject, methanol is metabolized into formaldehyde, which is directly toxic. The body preferentially metabolizes
ethanol, so it is sometimes used as an antidote for methanol ingestion. |
I think the main hazard is metabolism to formic acid, which attacks the optical nerve to cause blindness at teaspoon quantities of methanol (IIRC
10-20mL MeOH is the minimum dose to do so). I’ve never heard of ethanol being used as an antidote but it’s an interesting concept - however, I am
skeptical because moonshine and cheap ‘substitute alcohol’ (commercial products and industrial chemicals) have caused many a case of methanol
toxicity despite the high ethanol content.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/gizmodo.com/at-least-48-dead-...
https://www.hri.global/files/2011/07/21/02.2_McKee_-_Composition_of_Surrogate_Alcohols_(Russia)_.pdf
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ibtimes.co.uk/drinking-bo...
In chemistry, sometimes the solution is the problem.
It’s been a while, but I’m not dead! Updated 7/1/2020. Shout out to Aga, we got along well.
|
|
|
ninhydric1
Hazard to Others
Posts: 345
Registered: 21-4-2017
Location: Western US
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bleached
|
|
Ethanol is NOT a cure to methanol poisoning; instead, it delays the onset of methanol poisoning. Alcohol dehydrogenase in our liver has a preference
towards oxidizing ethanol over methanol and will first convert ethanol to acetaldehyde before it converts methanol. Depending on how much ethanol you
consume, the onset of methanol poisoning can be delayed but NOT cured.
The philosophy of one century is the common sense of the next.
|
|
|
Melgar
Anti-Spam Agent
Posts: 2004
Registered: 23-2-2010
Location: Connecticut
Member Is Offline
Mood: Estrified
|
|
Ah! Misinformation! I used to have a still for making ethanol, so I do know some stuff about this.
Methanol, like ethylene glycol, is toxic via "metabolic acidosis". If you're curious about methanol's toxicity, then type "metabolic acidosis" into
Google, and you'll be able to find all the information you could ever want. The gist of it is, some alcohols are metabolized into acids that the
human body can use for energy, and then exhale in the form of carbon dioxide. Acetic acid is one of those acids. Citric acid is another. Propylene
glycol is another, since it's metabolized into pyruvic acid. So all these alcohols are pretty harmless to your body, because even though they're
metabolized into acids, your mitochondria just immediately use those acids to produce CO2 and energy, so it's not a problem.
Metabolic acidosis happens when an alcohol is metabolized into an acid that your body CAN'T use for energy. As a result, it just sits around lowering
the ambient pH. If that pH gets too low, bad things happen. Now, your kidneys can flush out these useless layabout acids, but it takes some time.
This is why it helps to consume ethanol in the event of methanol poisoning. It keeps your enzymes busy metabolizing ethanol into acetic acid, which
can be immediately metabolized for energy, as opposed to formic acid, which cannot.
I've heard that methanol is perhaps 5-10 times as toxic as ethanol though, so the answer to your question is "not very". You can even taste a drop or
two with no ill effects, and the fumes from it would present a fire hazard before they'd present a health hazard.
The first step in the process of learning something is admitting that you don't know it already.
I'm givin' the spam shields max power at full warp, but they just dinna have the power! We're gonna have to evacuate to new forum software!
|
|
|
Tsjerk
International Hazard
Posts: 3022
Registered: 20-4-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mood
|
|
Alcohol dehydrogenase doesn't have a preference for either ethanol or methanol or whatever alcohol... It just oxidizes the first alcohol that comes
along and needs a certain time to do that. How would anyone imaging an enzyme to have a preference? Like it will pick one molecule over another, but
only if the preferred molecule is around? If the nicer one comes along it will throw the less nice molecule away?
What ethanol as an antidote (yes, antidote) will do is slow down methanol oxidation, and that way give the body more time to get rid of the formic
acid.
[Edited on 22-4-2018 by Tsjerk]
|
|
|
PirateDocBrown
National Hazard
Posts: 570
Registered: 27-11-2016
Location: Minnesota
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Don't get methanol into your eyes. It can be absorbed directly into the optic nerve, where it does the most damage. Even a tiny amount can blind you.
Always wear your goggles.
Phlogiston manufacturer/supplier.
For all your phlogiston needs.
|
|
|
Morgan
International Hazard
Posts: 1660
Registered: 28-12-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Tidbits
Alcohol Dehydrogenase
"Our bodies create at least nine different forms of alcohol dehydrogenase, each with slightly different properties."
http://pdb101.rcsb.org/motm/13
|
|
|
Melgar
Anti-Spam Agent
Posts: 2004
Registered: 23-2-2010
Location: Connecticut
Member Is Offline
Mood: Estrified
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by PirateDocBrown | | Don't get methanol into your eyes. It can be absorbed directly into the optic nerve, where it does the most damage. Even a tiny amount can blind you.
Always wear your goggles. |
Getting any alcohol in your eye is a bad idea, but there are quite a few barriers protecting your optic nerve from anything that might get into your
eye. So basically what you wrote is complete bullshit.
The only way it can blind you accidentally is if you drink it. Or maybe go swimming in it.
The first step in the process of learning something is admitting that you don't know it already.
I'm givin' the spam shields max power at full warp, but they just dinna have the power! We're gonna have to evacuate to new forum software!
|
|
|
LearnedAmateur
National Hazard
Posts: 513
Registered: 30-3-2017
Location: Somewhere in the UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: Free Radical
|
|
I’ll have to go with Melgar on this one (maybe not the ‘complete bullshit’ part since that’s a bit strong and we all share a bit of
misinformation here and there), like I mentioned it’s the formic acid that does the damage hence requires metabolism first. Same goes for ethylene
glycol, fairly benign in itself but it metabolises to oxalic acid in vivo which is quite toxic as most of us know.
In chemistry, sometimes the solution is the problem.
It’s been a while, but I’m not dead! Updated 7/1/2020. Shout out to Aga, we got along well.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
