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pharm-phreak
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Laws regulating chemicals for a tiny home lab
Hi,
Can anyone shed some light on what are the legal factors to keep in mind for setting up a tiny lab space in my rented home? No hazardous waste to be
generated, no chemicals from DEA List I to be used. Just want to have a very basic setup with a hotplate, glassware, DI water (pre-purchased), GRAS
chemicals and some bases.
I'm based out of CA. Am I allowed to store, handle and experiment with these chemicals on a purely non-commercial basis in the comfort of my home? Any
pointers / advice would be hugely appreciated! 
[Edited on 23-4-2018 by pharm-phreak]
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LearnedAmateur
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Welcome to the forums, as long as what you’re doing is legal then you shouldn’t have anything to worry about - check local laws as to which
glassware and reagents/products you can own without a license and all will be fine. I know that some places ban certain bits (like that stupid law in
Texas where you can’t own some flasks and other equipment without a permit), but you’ll be able to find that information easily online.
For general experimenting, science away! I’m not familiar with US laws but Cali seems like a pretty relaxed place so I wouldn’t get stressed out
about police busting down your door after ordering an RBF or some potassium nitrate.
In chemistry, sometimes the solution is the problem.
It’s been a while, but I’m not dead! Updated 7/1/2020. Shout out to Aga, we got along well.
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woelen
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Good to read that you want to do some experimenting at home. Enjoy it!
As stated above, no need to worry about the police lifting you from your bed in the middle of the night, as long as you don't do any stupid things.
Try to work on a microscale (test tubes, a few ml per experiment). That reduces the amount of waste produced in your experiments and if smelly gases
are produced, then at least the amounts are small. It also reduces risks of poisoning, fire, or other nasty things which can happen.
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VSEPR_VOID
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You should be fine in California but it really comes down to what you are making or working with. If you are storing explosive compounds than you are
more likely to be harassed, searched, or investigated than if you are making copper salts.
Within cells interlinked
Within cells interlinked
Within cells interlinked
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JJay
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I have read stories about the police obtaining search warrants over nothing more than solvent and glassware purchases, but things are a little
different when you purchase ether in 20L drums or buy 50L 3-neck flasks with heating mantles.
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woelen
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@JJay: This is fear-mongering. If you order general solvents, general chemicals, or glassware in normal amounts/sizes for private use (e.g. 100's of
ml, 100's of grams), then there is no reason to be worried.
This is the case in every (more or less) free nation. Police has something better to do than checking out on persons who order a few 100 ml flasks and
a few 100's of grams of chemicals. Only if there also are other indications/flags (e.g. past drug-abuse, being active on drugs-forums, ordering
machines for making tablets, ordering specific illegal items), the ordering of glassware or chemicals may trigger a request for getting more info.
Where I live, there are no restrictions on glassware at all, except for very large things. If I want to buy a 20 liter flask with a suitable heating
mantle and a suitable big size receiver, then I will have to fill in some paperwork.
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Sulaiman
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I'm in UK so different but similar;
I imagine that large quantities (gallons) of flammable solvents would invalidate rental and/or fire rules/regulations.
Consider what would upset/annoy/concern you if neighbours had similar hobbies
- apply those considerations to yourself and you should be OK.
Until you get to the stage where refluxing and/or distillation is required,
chemistry can be performed in normal soda-lime glass unless heating is required
in which case Pyrex would be better but not necessary.
In my case, the most important things to consider with kitchen chemistry are;
NEVER (unless you are really sure) use chemistry stuff for cookery.
Unless no one else uses the kitchen, keep all of your chemistry stuff in one area, and crucially,
take care to not make stains or burn marks - financial and/or emotional costs can be high !
CAUTION : Hobby Chemist, not Professional or even Amateur
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LearnedAmateur
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Oh yes, my mother was never pleased to discover many tiny holes in my clothing items and strange bits of damage to pieces of furniture/the stovetop.
One of the most important things to consider when you get started with chemistry, especially with more corrosive reagents..
In chemistry, sometimes the solution is the problem.
It’s been a while, but I’m not dead! Updated 7/1/2020. Shout out to Aga, we got along well.
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Bert
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Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".
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Check your lease. It says things about activities forbidden on the premises, READ THE FINE PRINT.
| Quote: |
I’m not familiar with US laws but Cali seems like a pretty relaxed place so I wouldn’t get stressed out about police busting down your door after
ordering an RBF or some potassium nitrate.
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(Coastal, urban) California is relaxed about- Hemp? Expressing your non standard gender/religion/politics/form of artistic expression? Maybe.
Chemicals? Not so much.
It's not quite Texas, but they ARE nervous about chemicals, explosives, synthesis of meth or other street drugs- and most particularly, FIRE dangers
(whole state catches fire if you give it a cross look) unlicenzed HazMat storage or activities which relate to toxic waste issues.
CA residents go to AZ if they want to build fireworks, that's why the Western Pyrotechnic Association winter blast is in Lake Havasu AZ, but most
people there are from CA. They can do hands on stuff at the convention, at home they risk prosecution.
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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BromicAcid
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My contract to purchase my house specifically has a clause forbidding 'dangerous' chemicals in the home, if such chemicals are found then I am
required to pay the balance of my mortgage immediately. My homeowners insurance has a similar clause on dangerous chemicals voiding my insurance. My
renters insurance in my previous apartment also had something similar. Read carefully, basically if something happens you're screwed.
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aga
Forum Drunkard
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I think that's the main one.
Wanting to Phreak Pharm is worrying.
Presumably that's why the username was chosen.
Well, whatever you do, try not annoy your neighbours
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aga
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Quote: Originally posted by BromicAcid  | | My contract to purchase my house specifically has a clause forbidding 'dangerous' chemicals in the home, if such chemicals are found then I am
required to pay the balance of my mortgage immediately. ... |
Out of interest (no pun intended) what would happen if you did breach the Terms and not pay immediately ?
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Bert
Super Administrator
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Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".
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You are good friends, that's why they gave you a loan. You go out for a beer with the lender, explain your side of the story and have a few laughs,
then everything is normal again.
Oh wait. A bank?
Being in default on terms of a contract usually = the bank owns the property, you lost the payments made so far, and depending on the fine print, are
probably liable for any profits the bank didn't make that they were expecting to make.
If the bank turns around and sells your place quickly at a loss to get out from under, they still want to be made whole of their loss from the
contract.
The bank gets paid off by insurance. Then the insurance company lawyers come looking to get what they can out of you... They were on retainer anyway,
might as well make them do some work.
You are declaring bankruptcy.
[Edited on 4-23-2018 by Bert]
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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zed
International Hazard
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Location: Great State of Jefferson, City of Portland
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Avoid the appearance of impropriety.
Chemical sales are recorded and monitored. Assuming each of your suppliers has a Chemical Handlers License; their books are periodically inspected.
Depending upon your geographical location, and the control agent making the inspection, your purchases may or may not, attract attention.
If and when, the government comes a-calling, they may have paperwork for every chemical purchase you have ever made.
A large variety of chemicals, can pass though your hands, over the course of years. To the suspicious eye, it might look like you are making
Quaaludes, or GHB, or some other obscure material that you had never really considered. Might be some agent has a bug up his butt about
napthtalene..... You don't know.
On paper, you can look like a bad guy, even if you aren't.
Behave accordingly.
[Edited on 24-4-2018 by zed]
[Edited on 24-4-2018 by zed]
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Reboot
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Interestingly, most chemical safety laws in the US only apply to workplaces. Home labs are one of those odd little niche areas where it just hasn't
occurred to lawmakers that they might want to regulate it. We have a responsibility to keep it that way by being careful and respectful of our
neighbors/environment.
Pollution laws do apply, and can be a complicated thing to comply with. If you run a reaction that produces waste mercury, then throw it in the
trash or dump it down the drain, you can be sure the wrath of the gods will fall on you if word gets out. Limit reactions sizes. Avoid highly
toxic reagents. If you have a fume hood, think about whether the exhaust from it might be toxic. Dumping toxin laden air into the open atmosphere
may or may not be legally OK, depending on substance, concentration, and local laws.
The good news though is that, on the personal hobby level, there's remarkably little regulation. Equipment and chemicals (except for some things
like obvious drug precursors) have never been easier to get. And as long as you don't bother anybody (including giving them a reason to worry about
what you might be up to) you can pretty much do as you please in most jurisdictions.
On the practical side, be sure your experiments are appropriate for your work space. If you want to grow copper sulfate crystals in your rental
apartment, go for it. If you want to do a potentially violent reflux with smelly solvents, I strongly advise waiting until you own your own home.
Be ready for spills (and even fires.)
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Bert
Super Administrator
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Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".
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| Quote: Originally posted by Reboot | Interestingly, most chemical safety laws in the US only apply to workplaces. And as long as you don't bother anybody (including giving them a reason
to worry about what you might be up to) you can pretty much do as you please in most jurisdictions.
<snip>
On the practical side, be sure your experiments are appropriate for your work space. If you want to grow copper sulfate crystals in your rental
apartment, go for it. If you want to do a potentially violent reflux with smelly solvents, I strongly advise waiting until you own your own home.
Be ready for spills (and even fires.)
|
This can be reduced to a much shorter set of instructions:
Don't wave your dick in their face. ("They" being the authorities having jurisdiction)
Don't piss off your neighbors. (That would include not putting them at risk)
[Edited on 4-24-2018 by Bert]
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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LearnedAmateur
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Posts: 513
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Location: Somewhere in the UK
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| Quote: Originally posted by zed | Avoid the appearance of impropriety.
Chemical sales are recorded and monitored. Assuming each of your suppliers has a Chemical Handlers License; their books are periodically inspected.
Depending upon your geographical location, and the control agent making the inspection, your purchases may or may not, attract attention.
If and when, the government comes a-calling, they may have paperwork for every chemical purchase you have ever made.
A large variety of chemicals, can pass though your hands, over the course of years. To the suspicious eye, it might look like you are making
Quaaludes, or GHB, or some other obscure material that you had never really considered. Might be some agent has a bug up his butt about
napthtalene..... You don't know. |
Surely that depends on what you’re buying and where you’re getting it from though? I mean ordering a couple of hundred grams of potassium
permanganate from some independent seller on eBay for domestic use wouldn’t be recorded compared to ordering like 5L of concentrated nitric acid. As
we all know, ‘chemicals’ is a broad term so there must be some quantitative/qualitative limit to what can be investigated? Like what are you going
to do illegally with 10 kilos of baking soda?
[Edited on 24-4-2018 by LearnedAmateur]
In chemistry, sometimes the solution is the problem.
It’s been a while, but I’m not dead! Updated 7/1/2020. Shout out to Aga, we got along well.
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zed
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I'm not saying you "will" have trouble. I'm just saying..... consider it as a possibility.
E-bay sellers, who are not Chemical Handlers, are not required to co-operate with the government, or keep records. None-the-less, E-bay documents
your every transaction, and THEIR records are an open-book to government agencies.
Dual use, is kind of the rule in chemistry. Many seemingly innocuous items, can be diverted obnoxious uses.
So..... Something you buy (or some combination of things) may arouse alarm.
A while back, we here at ScienceMadness, were being bombarded with questions about acquiring (or making) Phenol. I thought nothing of it. Might have
been helpful in my own obtuse way.
Within the year, Federal Agents had detained a suspect for purchasing a fairly modest quantity of Phenol.
Toluene is converted to TNT with difficulty. Phenol is converted to the explosive Picric Acid, with relative ease.
It was suspected the gentleman in question, had evil intentions.
Buy a hundred reagents, amongst them, over the course of time..... H2O2, H2SO4, Acetone..... Stuff every, high school, university, or amature lab
might have. Just stuff. But, to an alert agent, quiet possibly dangerous stuff.
Not impossible someone might want to talk to you.
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JJay
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In general, there is a duty to abstain from infringing upon your neighbor's right to quiet enjoyment of their own property. That means no catching
their homes on fire, no waking them up in the middle of the night with explosions, no smells, not poisoning the water, etc.
Different jurisdictions may have fire codes that you may be required to obey. I'm not exactly sure what the penalties are for breaking them, but I am
told that they can be severe. While most environmental regulations don't apply to a home lab, a few do.
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pharm-phreak
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Thanks a lot everyone for your valuable inputs! Like I said, its nothing heavy, nothing hazardous, nothing noisy, nothing smelly, nothing toxic,
nothing violent or exothermic. Pretty safe GRAS stuff, with no dangerous acids or solvents. If I go ahead, I'll only be experimenting in milliliter
scales. I know agencies/neighbors/landlords tend to get paranoid on the slightest whiff - so just wanted to know the laws before deciding to venture
in this direction. Thanks again! 
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LearnedAmateur
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You should be fine then, I’m kind of in the same boat, scale wise anyway and only buying a couple of hundred grams/up to a litre of reagents at a
time. I live in a rented flat and do some pretty dangerous reactions when performed on larger scales (ones that generate noticeable amounts of NO2 and
are strongly exothermic for instance) and have stuff like 96% sulphuric acid and highly volatile/flammable solvents, but nothing that is overly
hazardous when I’m only adding in 10 or 20 millilitres at a time.
If you were to do these sorts of reactions then from experience I’d say that they’d be undetectable to anyone outside of your lab space, I’ve
been living at the same place and doing chemistry there for a couple of years and nobody has raised any concerns. It’s not like you’re throwing
out massive quantities of gas or creating grams of explosive compounds so there really isn’t much danger involved outside of potential equipment
failure. Even when generating, for instance NO2 or HCl, on the g/mL scale, you’d have a hard time detecting the smells yourself unless you put your
nose right up to the flask.
In chemistry, sometimes the solution is the problem.
It’s been a while, but I’m not dead! Updated 7/1/2020. Shout out to Aga, we got along well.
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Melgar
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Ever heard of crack cocaine?
Seriously though, if you're not causing problems for anyone, you'll probably be fine. However, sometimes nosy neighbors will call the police. Or
you'll be moving into a new place, and keeping your chemistry stuff in your car because you aren't able to set up a lab yet, then you'll get pulled
over by a cop who sees the chemistry stuff, gets suspicious, and tears apart all your stuff looking for something illegal. Or maybe you have an
annoying roommate who finds some of your chemistry stuff in the garage, calls the fire department to ask what to do about it, and then it escalates
into a terrorism scare. Some of these things have happened to me. If anything like that happens to you, it's important to keep everything neat, and
make sure all your chemicals are labeled. Unlabeled chemicals cause police to become much more concerned than you'd expect.
The first step in the process of learning something is admitting that you don't know it already.
I'm givin' the spam shields max power at full warp, but they just dinna have the power! We're gonna have to evacuate to new forum software!
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Phosgenetimemachine
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Once more,congrats on your new hobby of interest.I live in Northern CA,and have purchased a fair amount of both assorted glass and various
chems,although I have not recently checked(been probably 10 years since i last did)any flask that you may transport yourself(final purchaser)with a
volume of 1000ml or more should be accompanied by its receipt.....and that is the only information given to me by a somewhat renowned chem distributor
out of Sacramento....,but beware I have been investigated,but that was an entirely different situation,with persons who had less than innocent
intentions..good luck!enjoy!
[Edited on 29-7-2018 by Phosgenetimemachine]
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S.C. Wack
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The relevant laws would be fire codes and the lease which I imagine wasn't written to violate conditions in the owner's mortgage and insurance.
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MJ101
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@pharm-phreak: You need to figure out if what you intend to do in your home lab can become dangerous.
If you're not producing toxic / noxious fumes, then you should be fairly safe. The problem arises when your neighbors find out.
They may panic and call the authorities because they think you have a drug lab. Or worse.
That will force the landlord to act, and possibly evict you because of insurance regulations. (As S.C. Wack mentioned)
Be careful. And be prepared to be questioned about it by Law Enforcement.
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