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Vosoryx
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SM Challenge - thoughts?
So this was mentioned in a recent thread, and I think that another SM challenge would be a great way to help build the community, as well as promote
some decent science to be going on here on the forum.
Indeed, a challenge on this site (that I gave up on) is the reason I went from a lurker to a poster, and I hope that it might do the same for other
new members.
I would be glad to help this by organizing another challenge, and though I don't have much, I might be able to throw something into the pot for a
winner.
Does anyone have any ideas for a decent challenge? Ideally, we'd want to make it both challenging enough to encourage a lot of members and useful to
our community.
Perhaps, we could also make multiple challenges to appeal to different types of chemists - Perhaps both organic/inorganic?
Any ideas? I'd love to engage in a discussion to better flesh out these plans.
I can't think of any compounds that would really work well for this, as well as the fact that I doubt i'd be able to organize such an event on my own.
Let me know if anyone's interested.
"Open your mind son, before someone opens it for you." - Dr. Walter Bishop
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walruslover69
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I'm somewhat new to the forum, what were the previous challenges?
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DrEvidence
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I don't care what's the challenge, but what's the reward? Something large like car, or something small like teaspoon?
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j_sum1
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There have been a few in my time.
Before I arrived was a challenge to make fire without matches using novel reactions. Numerous posts to youtube -- some quite interesting but
they are scattered all over the place.
Then was a challenge to synthesise a compound (non-polymer) with the highest molecular mass. It suffered due to having definition problems. But
there was a result.
There was challenge to synthesise TEMPO from otc reagents. I did not follow that one.
aga issued a challenge to make nitric acid from otc/natural reagents excluding nitrates.
There was a copper carnival -- synthesise a sequence of copper compounds reacting from one to the next in a linear fashion. There were five
submissions eventually, all with good write-ups. They are worthy of downloading and adding to your lab library -- there is some good stuff there.
I hosted a competition to have a versitile and interesting lab with five otc compounds. Only one submission; from volanschemia (and a pretty
nice prize -- I think four people contributed to the prize pool.)
I think maybe a good way to go would be to have a weekend challenge. You announce the competition date and some details of what reagents and
equipment might be needed. Then on Friday (by some definition of Friday) you give all the details and everyone starts work. On Sunday they give
their submissions.
This would be easy to participate in since anyone interested would know ahead of time what their commitment would be and be able to apportion their
time accordingly.
I won't dig up the links to all these comps just at present but can possibly add them later. And I may have missed one or two.
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walruslover69
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Creating the most colorful compound sounds like a very fun challenge, with the potential for a wide range of different approaches. Colorfulness might
be defined as highest molar absorptivity within the visible range. There is the problem of quantitatively verifying results without a UV-Vis but i
think we could find some way around that, or by simply comparing lit values.
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violet sin
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DrEvidence, wrong approach yo. No offense, but the reward is usually donated by a member or members here. As such it's not usually too flashy. Aga
did offer a NICE sum for the nitric acid idea, and also made some trophies for a past challenge though. They were super cool looking, and much
appreciated by those that received them. I have not competed in any. No time. Copper carnival would have been fun.
I assume there will be a chip in pot for those that can share something with winners, or donate a couple bucks. You won't be getting a new car,
unless some one donates a toy as a gag now, lol. Certain chems can't cross certain borders which could make donations for items limited, based on the
winners locations. Cash travels nicely in the form of PayPal or such. But who has too much of that? Not I, that's for sure.
Perhaps there could be an ante of sorts. Every contestant could donate to the pot, and winners take a share. I'd be in favor of also having a small
sum go to who ever manages the beast. Spare time isn't free. I mean I know of an abundance of things I could be doing right now with mine, and none
of them included managing an online chemistry contest .
as far as ideas, it would be nice to have some use come of this contest, we agree on that. Perhaps we could have one on cobbling together labs
equipment too. It's been a long day for me, ideas are thin right now. Ask again when my 30oz coffee cup is full, and my bullshit meter is empty ...
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Metacelsus
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I like that idea. I suggest doing something related to building analytical equipment. Perhaps an automated TLC system of some sort?
I can contribute some prize money (at least $50, possibly more depending on what we decide as the challenge).
Edit: I could also manage the challenge (I graduate college in about 2 weeks and I will have more free time this summer).
[Edited on 4-27-2018 by Metacelsus]
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Vosoryx
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Well, a couple of points to address here:
I'd be more than happy to be atleast the main organizer of these - it was my idea after all. I wouldn't request anything. However, depending on the
scale of this, I might need some help in judging/organizing it.
1. The "weekend challenges" sound like an absolutely awesome idea! That would be really great. My only concerns are:
i. Wow would that be a pain to manage. Not saying I couldn't do it, but if I did it would be a big job - i'd probably get a couple other people to
help out if it were weekly.
ii. Sending out the winnings to the contestants, especially if it's weekly, would mean that each participant would get less, which might result in
not as much participation. My main goals here are to grow the community and have fun.
2. If we were to do an ante, then I would be concerned that it might drive off participants. Indeed, if there was an ante for the challenge that I
did, (or more accurately didn't do) then I likely wouldn't have partaken in it. Not because I wouldn't have coughed up the small amount of money for
it, but because I don't have a paypal (<18) and thus couldn't pay it. I have a few useful bits and bobs lying around that I could send out to
winners if it were a big competition, as well as some exotic chemicals that I found by chance.
3. I like the idea of the equipment too, that sounds like it would be a fun experiment, and probably appeal to most chemists.
I feel as though I could organize a large challenge, (possibly if I got some prize donations from members) but I might want some help on judging it if
it's not a "first to the finish line" kind of challenge. If it's the weekend challenges idea (which, again, I love) then I think that multiple people
would have to be in on organizing that.
There'd have to be perfect planning as not to divulge too much information but enough for people to want to participate. Also, every challenge would
have to be pre-completed to get a time estimate, and to solve any problems that might come up.
This is great - i'm hopeful this will go somewhere.
Edit: Just thought of this - would people be okay with me judging/organizing it? I've only been around for a short while, and people might feel more
trustworthy if it were put on by someone with more seniority.
[Edited on 27-4-2018 by Vosoryx]
"Open your mind son, before someone opens it for you." - Dr. Walter Bishop
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j_sum1
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From experience, managing a competition was not at all onerous. It took less time than competing.
One of the reasons that I did it was to keep me in the loop chemistry-wise at a time when I was not able to do any experimentation. I counted it a
privilege to have some input into others and to discuss some cool ideas. And it does not need to be that big a prize for it to be special. I am sure
that for most of us, a 500mL RBF direct mailed from deschem (for example) would be very welcome. But it is not that expensive.
Let's have a discussion via U2U, Vosoryx. We can thrash out some ideas and I can give you some assistance with running the show.
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VSEPR_VOID
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We need an announcement thread where a moderator would post the official challenge and the rules. I have seen this done on reddit (example KSP
challenges )
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Metacelsus
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TLC Challenge Idea
Here is my idea for a challenge:
| Quote: |
The Sciencemadness TLC Apparatus Challenge
Rules:
The prize money goes to whoever submits an entry first, with sufficient proof that the criteria have been met for the prize.
Device schematics, pictures, source code (if applicable, including .stl files for any 3D printed components), and statistical data must be publicly
available.
Detailed instructions must be provided on device construction and use.
All challenge submissions will have a CC-BY-SA 4.0 license.
After an entry is submitted, there will be a one-week public comment period before the award becomes official.
Even after the main prize in a category has been awarded, users can still submit entries for bonus prizes.
Prize money will be sent via PayPal within one month of official award announcement. Alternate payment methods may be allowed upon request, but there
are no guarantees.
The challenge closes September 1. No entries will be considered after then.
Note: It is quite likely that the prize money will be less than the cost of creating the devices, but remember that you will still have the device for
your own use after you finish building it for the challenge. A working device is its own reward. Of course, other users are free to contribute
additional money to the prize pool if they want.
Category 1: Spotting
Make a device to automatically spot a fixed volume of liquid (in the range of 1 to 10 µL) onto a TLC plate, with coefficient of variation less than
10% over at least 20 spots. Prize: $50
Bonus: Have the amount of liquid spotted be adjustable by the user: $10
Bonus: Be able to spot multiple (at least 5) spots a fixed distance apart on the same plate: $10
Bonus: Quantify spot areas and retention factors using open-source image analysis software: $5
Category 2: Elution
Make a device to automatically elute TLC plates and stop elution when complete. Elution must be even (no wavy solvent fronts allowed!) The device must
be tested with at least five plates, each of which having at least three spots. Coefficient of variation in retention factors must be less than 10%.
Prize: $50
Bonus: Make your own TLC plates and successfully demonstrate their use in your system: $20
Bonus: Automatically apply stain to plates after elution is complete: $5
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Does this sound like a good challenge? I intend it to be difficult but still possible. It would also benefit the Sciencemadness community by helping
people with TLC. I could run it and fund the prizes. Of course, I would be open to letting someone else run it if they want to take this on.
[Edited on 4-27-2018 by Metacelsus]
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j_sum1
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That sounds awesome, Metacelsus. It is however outside my league -- I simply don't have the electronics skills to participate in that one.
@VSEPR VOID
In the past, the organisers have worked out the details and posted conditions and dates in a dedicated thread. It does not really need moderator
input or official announcements. With my last competition there were two threads -- one for discussion before and during the competition and the
other for posting submissions at the due date.
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j_sum1
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List of past competitions:
Good stuff to read and consider if you are thinking of running a challenge.
Oxalyl chloride challenge
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=74...
kind of faded into nothing -- I think it ended up being too hard
Chemical conflagrations challenge
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=61...
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=61...
Nice simple finite competition. Small prize pool. Voting to decide winner. This format worked well.
Dollar Store challenge
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=56...
This one fizzed. It had some merit but needed organisational refinement.
High Stakes High Mass
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=45...
This proved to be a fun exercise for all who participated. I don't think it worked well as a competition since the submission and discussion were
intermingled. But it is a good read.
Lab from 5 OTC items
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=64...
I made the time frame way too long here which meant that enthusiasm waned. I think the format in terms of instructions, discussion, submission and
prizes worked well -- if anyone wants to use this as a template. It was after this that I began to think of a weekend challenge with a more
restricted and finite time frame.
Copper Carnival
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=62...
IMO, the most successful competition we have had. There was some really good stuff here. Bottom line is that the concept was very accessible and
able to be done by both newbies and experts.
Drunken Aga Challenge #3 -- Nitric Acid
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=48...
This was somewhat protracted and the terms were not absolutely clear at the start. What this one did do is provoke a lot of good discussion. This is
the thread that helped me to transition from noob to somewhat competent. It also gave me a couple of bucks to buy some glassware. Ever grateful to
aga for starting this one.
Fire without matches
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=15...
This was a collaborative YT video. I have not gone through it all -- there is much reading and watching. What I have seen looks like a lot of fun.
Electrochemistry Challenge.
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=62...
This one tanked. Shame.
otc TEMPO
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=45...
This one seemed technical to me at the time and way beyond my skills. I believe it was a successful comp and enjoyed by those who got involved.
[Edit]
Added TEMPO
Fixed link
[Edited on 27-4-2018 by j_sum1]
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Vosoryx
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jsum, thanks for that. I'll be sending a U2U soon.
Just so you know, the "High stakes High Mass" link is in both "High stakes high mass" and "Lab from 5 otc items"
This is the link I think you mean to put under that heading.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=64317
"Open your mind son, before someone opens it for you." - Dr. Walter Bishop
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j_sum1
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Darned cut and paste. I will fix.
Some more thoughts on competitions posted after my last one:
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=64...
[Edited on 27-4-2018 by j_sum1]
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VSEPR_VOID
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Some more ideas for possible challenges
"How low can you go?" - Create the lowest temperature environment possible
Notes: Must maintain the temperature submitted for at least 5 minutes and use only amateur materials and equipment
"Get there first" - Prepare a chemical compound that has yet to be produced and documented
"Chemical Art" - Just as the title describes, produce a work of art using your skills as an amateur chemist
As for prizes I think that a customized "Science Madness Award" in the form of a trophy, engraved beaker, or certificate would be better than cash.
Most of us do this sort of stuff for fun and fame, not a few bucks.
[Edited on 27-4-2018 by VSEPR_VOID]
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j_sum1
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Ooh. I like those.
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Vosoryx
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Same. All of those are good suggestions.
I suspect that an award might be a good prize, but i'd rather something I could use in the lab, such as jointed glassware or whatnot.
"Open your mind son, before someone opens it for you." - Dr. Walter Bishop
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LearnedAmateur
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That would be a good idea except there have already been instances of that (anywhere on the Internet after a frivolous Google search), including one
by myself, tetraphenylethylammine copper nitrate.
In chemistry, sometimes the solution is the problem.
It’s been a while, but I’m not dead! Updated 7/1/2020. Shout out to Aga, we got along well.
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VSEPR_VOID
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Quote: Originally posted by LearnedAmateur  |
That would be a good idea except there have already been instances of that (anywhere on the Internet after a frivolous Google search), including one
by myself, tetraphenylethylammine copper nitrate. |
It must be quite the rush to do that sort of work. I hope of doing the exact same thing as soon as possible (it would look good on my resume as well).
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Metacelsus
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I will post the TLC Apparatus Challenge in its own thread, and we'll see if people are interested.
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LearnedAmateur
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I just had a phase where I was really interested in complex ions, especially based around Cu2+, and I had quite an amount of phenylethylamine so I
thought I’d have a play around. I’ve also synthesised the copper ion of dimethylaminoethanol since I also used that as a supplement, which forms a
bidentate complex. They form nice colours, the PEA ligands create a forest green insoluble salt whereas the DMAE is soluble and is a very dark
blue-purple solution depending on whether the light is reflected or transmitted, respectively, but I haven’t attempted to crystallise it out and
can’t remember whether I used the nitrate or sulphate so I don’t want a potential explosive on my hands.
In chemistry, sometimes the solution is the problem.
It’s been a while, but I’m not dead! Updated 7/1/2020. Shout out to Aga, we got along well.
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VSEPR_VOID
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| Quote: Originally posted by LearnedAmateur | | I just had a phase where I was really interested in complex ions, especially based around Cu2+, and I had quite an amount of phenylethylamine so I
thought I’d have a play around. I’ve also synthesised the copper ion of dimethylaminoethanol since I also used that as a supplement, which forms a
bidentate complex. They form nice colours, the PEA ligands create a forest green insoluble salt whereas the DMAE is soluble and is a very dark
blue-purple solution depending on whether the light is reflected or transmitted, respectively, but I haven’t attempted to crystallise it out and
can’t remember whether I used the nitrate or sulphate so I don’t want a potential explosive on my hands. |
That could be another challenge, "make a new energetic compound"
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Texium
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I think challenges about making new compounds are too vague. First of all, it can be very difficult to determine whether you are actually the first
person to synthesize and document a new compound. Second of all, it's not that hard to tweak an existing compound a tiny bit to make something that
maybe hasn't been made before even if it doesn't exhibit any interesting and unique properties. Would that count? Where would you draw the line? What
sort of characterization would be required to know that a new compound has actually been made?
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Σldritch
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Some thoughts:
1. One week is way too short, especially when the participation is already low, i suggest monthly.
2. Avoid challenges that just turn into; "Who has the most chemicals?" or, "Who has the best equipment?", to increase participation and fairness.
3. And i do not think linear challenges are likely to be very interesting such as "Make chemical X" although there are some exceptions such as nitric
acid which has lots of interesting and accessible pathways.
Some good examples of this i think are the copper carnival challenge, the nitric acid challenge and the five OTC items challenge and more of course.
Im not sure how many challenges i can participate in but doing this would greatly increase both my interest and chance i can participate.
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