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Author: Subject: Looming DCM Ban (US)
UC235
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[*] posted on 11-5-2018 at 14:37
Looming DCM Ban (US)


https://cen.acs.org/policy/chemical-regulation/EPA-ban-methy...

Go buy your paint stripper while you still can, folks.
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[*] posted on 11-5-2018 at 15:04


Oh no!



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[*] posted on 11-5-2018 at 15:08


The irony is that amateur chemists are likely to substitute with chloroform in many instances.



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[*] posted on 11-5-2018 at 15:09


I wish you all the best down in the states. Fortunately it's still available here... but environment Canada will likely pick up on it soon enough.
At the very least, you probably still have a few years before the ban actually comes into affect.




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[*] posted on 11-5-2018 at 15:57


Alright, time to go grab a few gallons. I'm surprised the EPA under Pruitt is actually doing anything remotely related to the environment... of course they have to make it something annoying that accomplishes nothing useful.



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[*] posted on 11-5-2018 at 16:06


I have used the no-DCM strippers and they are useless. Who will sell DCM to individuals at a residential address after? All because somehow bathtubs and DCM got together 300 million people can no longer have paint stripper? (I assume the internet had something to do with the deaths)



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[*] posted on 11-5-2018 at 17:07


I love how there is actually an organization called The Halogenated Solvents Industry Alliance (HSIA), which represents solvent manufacturers.
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[*] posted on 11-5-2018 at 18:44


If you read carefully, this is a ban on methylene chloride in paint strippers. I see nothing about banning bulk methylene chloride. However, if you want to rush out and buy some I recommend Sierra Chemicals on ebay. I order solvents from them frequently without problems. And I live in California.

AvB
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[*] posted on 11-5-2018 at 21:06


Wonder how many people are killed by electrocution... maybe it's time to ban electricity.

Instead of putting a big warning label on it, let's just ban it outright. Gotta love nanny big government.

If it happens under Trump it's just another example that he was full of it when he used to talk about all the regulations at his rallies.

[Edited on 12-5-2018 by Leafs]
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[*] posted on 12-5-2018 at 03:11


1,2 Dichloromethane also called Dichloromethane now should work as a good substitute to DCM. I’m not sure about this it I think it is found in “Watco Danish oil”. Here it is sold at many hardware stores. MSDS just says “Mineral Spirits >60%”

[Edited on 5-12-2018 by 100PercentChemistry]




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[*] posted on 12-5-2018 at 03:23


Quote: Originally posted by 100PercentChemistry  
1,2 Dichloromethane also called Dichloromethane now should work as a good substitute to DCM. I’m not sure about this it I think it is found in “Watco Danish oil”. Hey is sold st many hardware stores. MSDS just says “Mineral Spirits >60%”

I suspect that auto-correct has mangled dichloroEthane.
I also suspect that it's not real "dutch oil" and contains no dichloroethane.

[Edited on 12-5-18 by unionised]
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[*] posted on 12-5-2018 at 03:27


You are correct, Autocorrect.

I also found DCE is in the refrigerant R-150, but I can’t find any where that sells I online.




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[*] posted on 12-5-2018 at 06:07


So same situation as in the EU then. I was able to buy DCM from a chemical supplier though.



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[*] posted on 12-5-2018 at 06:23


Welcome to Canada where if it is dangerous the dumbest of us it is for all of us!

Dear Americans, curbstomp any idiot that tries to ban some thing because some one won a Darwin award!

Let nature do its job and fight tooth and nail to retain your right to use what works responsibly!

I just get so sick of all the dimwitted crap they make us go though and most of it is driven by insurance companies as far as OH&S go, if some of those idiot regulators had to work under their own paper pusher policies they'd disappear right quick!

This is what you get when you have idiots who never held a tool in their life make policies for those that live by their tools!

[/pissed off lack of caffeine induced rant]
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[*] posted on 12-5-2018 at 06:44


The nanny-state at work



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[*] posted on 12-5-2018 at 15:35


I can see a case against DCM on environmental grounds. But that is not what is being proposed here.

If this ban becomes widespread then it will be annoying. And probably counterproductive as people seek alternatives that may in fact be more hazardous.




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[*] posted on 12-5-2018 at 16:43


So, why another law?

DCM is pretty bad stuff. But, as a society, we use very little of it.

MOST of us have the sense to realize it is pretty bad stuff. We exercise caution.

Grrrrr.
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[*] posted on 12-5-2018 at 18:17


I don't mind it being banned for use in paint strippers - there are less hazardous alternatives for that use, and so the ban will protect the average DIY-er citizen. A paint stripper is designed to be spread over a large surface area, so it's going to produce a lot of fumes in normal use. Other consumer products containing dichloromethane, such as solvent welding "glues", are less hazardous simply because of the way they are intended to be used (smaller quantity, smaller surface area, so much less vapour).

It should still be possible to buy dichloromethane from chemical suppliers anyway.




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[*] posted on 13-5-2018 at 08:24


Quote: Originally posted by AvBaeyer  
If you read carefully, this is a ban on methylene chloride in paint strippers. I see nothing about banning bulk methylene chloride. However, if you want to rush out and buy some I recommend Sierra Chemicals on ebay. I order solvents from them frequently without problems. And I live in California.

AvB


This. I don't see this as a big deal, it's only a ban on putting it in paint stripper which probably isn't a good idea anyway if there are safer alternatives. You can easily purchase it by the gallon online, I can't see that changing.
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[*] posted on 13-5-2018 at 12:10


It's quite a bit more expensive to buy it online though. Paint stripper is very cheap, requires only minor processing to purify, and you can get some methanol out of it as a bonus.



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[*] posted on 13-5-2018 at 16:49


I was wondering, is there any serious health risk associated with DCM? I'm not talking about inhaling high concentration vapors and handling the solvent with bare hands (pretty much any solvent would be harmfull in those conditions), I'm talking about reazonable exposure to DCM, like its vapors in a ventilated room or few drops falling on skin.
For me 5% higher chance of getting cancer is not a significant health risk.
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[*] posted on 14-5-2018 at 09:56


Quote: Originally posted by Texium (zts16)  
It's quite a bit more expensive to buy it online though. Paint stripper is very cheap, requires only minor processing to purify, and you can get some methanol out of it as a bonus.


I see a gallon listed on Amazon right now for <70$. How much does it cost at the hw store? At my HW stores all I can find is the kind that is a gel which is only ~30-40% DCM, it's a huge pain to clean that gel up, and iirc it's about 17$/gallon which is effectively the same price, plus you do not have to do any work to extract it. If it was 50%+ pure and didn't have that gel then I'd probably just do that, but that gel is a huge pain, you basically have to replace the DCM you recovered with acetone in order to get your flask back.
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[*] posted on 14-5-2018 at 10:30


Quote: Originally posted by byko3y  
I was wondering, is there any serious health risk associated with DCM? I'm not talking about inhaling high concentration vapors and handling the solvent with bare hands (pretty much any solvent would be harmfull in those conditions), I'm talking about reazonable exposure to DCM, like its vapors in a ventilated room or few drops falling on skin.
For me 5% higher chance of getting cancer is not a significant health risk.


It readily permeates the skin and can cause burns on its own. If I get a drop on my hand I know about it because it tingles. Also, there aren't really gloves with good resistance to DCM - it passes through most very rapidly, with the exception of polyvinyl alcohol gloves (which btw are water soluble), and 99.99% of people using paint stripper are not going to have them.

One of the products of metabolism of DCM is carbon monoxide.One of the products of metabolism of DCM is carbon monoxide. Inhalation, ingestion, and absorption through the skin can all cause acute systemic toxicity - and rapid death. There have been many reported deaths due to inhalation of DCM vapours from paint strippers. There's even been deaths reported among trained workers using DCM paint stripper with PVA gloves and a respirator.

Yes, it's carcinogenic too, but that's the least of your worries.

Sure, the alternatives might not take paint off quite as quickly, but frankly I'd rather be alive than have the convenience of making paint slop off things quickly.

This legislation will save lives. Stop being so selfish about possibly having to pay a little more to buy pure DCM from a chemical supplier.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/201...




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[*] posted on 14-5-2018 at 15:25


I'm fairly sure it won't save lives.
There are definitely more pressing things for people to be pursuing with their lives than banning DCM. I read it was consumer products not paint strippers - if it's paint strippers that's crap because even when I did flooring install we used DCM paint stripper to remove glue.




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[*] posted on 15-5-2018 at 06:08


I'd imagine that the fact that DCM isn't flammable has probably saved a fair number of lives as well. That's how I always find DCM paint strippers: I look for the one without any "DANGER! FLAMMABLE!" warning on it. (It does say "DANGER! TOXIC!", but all the others do too.)



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