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EPDGaffney
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Interesting, but would carbon monoxide be used in something like this? Also, would it not eliminate the need to make insecticide if that were already
in the machine?
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CuReUS
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Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney  | | So, I would call it aerosol in the machine, but would a toxic gas still linger in the cellar? This is what I'm trying to achieve.
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Again, aerosol and gas are not synonymous.I think some of the aerosol would still be dispersed in the air if the player entered soon after
spraying.But overtime the particles will settle down.
Anyways,this would make no difference because DDT doesn't kill someone immediately.
another example of chemistry in games -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CZbf1KrxVs
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EPDGaffney
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Wow, I really wanted to play that game based on the praise it was getting, but I hadn't looked at any of the gameplay. Looks really interesting.
Yes, I know aerosol is just air particles. What I would like to do is to make whatever insecticide is the result of all the lab work, on being
sprayed from the insecticide machine, become a gas. If that's mythological just let me know. I was under the impression DDT was used as a gas at
times.
I'm not going to call it DDT and it doesn't need to be. Using whatever vague language I need to use, I would like the player to be at risk if they
enter the room without breathing protection. If there's nothing that makes this feasible, I'll just use 'game logic' and make the particles never
settle. Time already passes completely unrealistically in that game anyway.
I am specifying a lot of the process of making the insecticide, and I am naming chlorobenzene and chloral hydrate. I'm hoping that whatever is inside
the insecticide machine can be specified or even glossed over in a way that makes it plausible for there to be a health risk on entering the cellar.
Would an extremely high concentration be good enough or should I try t find an alternative?
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CuReUS
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| Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney | | What I would like to do is to make whatever insecticide is the result of all the lab work, on being sprayed from the insecticide machine, become a
gas. If that's mythological just let me know. |
I don't think that's possible because
a)DDT doesn't exist as a gas(it decomposes at high temp)
b)agricultural insecticide machines release it in the form of aerosol
If you are so hell bent on using a gas,you could use this -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyl_cyanoformate
reacting this with water creates HCN,which is a gas.Methycyanoformate is a liquid,so you could spray it into the room,before turning on the fire
sprinkler system inside the cellar,or you could just mix both in the machine itself and pump the "gas" into the cellar.
| Quote: | I'm not going to call it DDT and it doesn't need to be...
....I am specifying a lot of the process of making the insecticide, and I am naming chlorobenzene and chloral hydrate. |
this is completely contraindicatory.Why would you take the effort to cross all the T's and dot all the I's if at the end you are just going to call it
XYZ ?
| Quote: | | Would an extremely high concentration be good enough or should I try t find an alternative? |
just because it doesn't kill you instantly doesn't mean its not toxic in the long run.The player could wear protective breathing gear to make sure he
lasts till the next installment
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TheMrbunGee
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| Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney |
This is all for my game design perspective. However, I'm still looking for a good reason to force the player to make this more complex insecticide as
opposed to the chlorine gas. I'm thinking I'll place a warning on the machine that says pure chlorine would break it. I've seen what corrosion
damage it can cause, so I'm hoping that would be reasonable. |
Those are some kind of mutant insects, maybe they are immune to chlorine?
Maybe you have some kind of squirt gun, witch requires liquid to be used.
Maybe the cellar is too big to be filled with deadly concentration of chlorine.
Maybe the cellar is filled with something that reacts with chlorine so it would use up quickly.
Maybe you can code a possibility to fill the cellar with Chlorine, but the ceilings are high an bugs are flying above the chlorine, which sinks to the
bottom of premises and proves to be ineffective.
That's all I got.
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EPDGaffney
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CuReUS:
Ah, see, I did think it was used as a gas at times. That's fair enough. I have a plan. A really good, Fallout-y plan: the cellar is filled already
with 'radiation', a term so nebulous that it could be referring to anything. What I will do is have my insecticide cause a reäction of some kind
that results in a high toxicity after killing all the bugs.
Your methyl cyanoformate idea is really good. I'm too far along on this route to change what I was planning, but I like that concept a lot, with the
sprinklers and all.
| Quote: | | this is completely contraindicatory.Why would you take the effort to cross all the T's and dot all the I's if at the end you are just going to call it
XYZ ? |
Well, I'm just going to be vague and call it insecticide is all. But to answer your question more properly, it feels fantastic to play through at
least what I have so far of the chemistry-based processes with all the proper language to back it up and science that checks out if you research it.
Game design and realism are often at odds with each other (like film plots and realism, among other things), and game design does have to take
precedence, but I try to find the sweet spot where neither side needs to compromise much or at-all.
TheMrbunGee:
| Quote: | | Those are some kind of mutant insects, maybe they are immune to chlorine? |
I don't know the science but I suspect that's implausible. But then, so are Fallout's ghouls and most of its other species. A better reason for not
doing this is perhaps that I can put the warning label on the machine when the player interacts with it, but I wouldn't know where to communicate the
information about these insects.
| Quote: | | Maybe the cellar is too big to be filled with deadly concentration of chlorine. |
Oh, can I do that? I asked about this but it must have got lost in the thread as no-one mentioned it again. Because of the warning label I
mentioned, that still may be the best way to handle this, but I may try to incorporate the cellar's size into a secondary reason somewhere.
| Quote: | | Maybe the cellar is filled with something that reacts with chlorine so it would use up quickly. |
Em...radiation?
[Edited on 27-5-2018 by EPDGaffney]
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EPDGaffney
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Does this sound like real chemistry or is it obvious that I have no idea what I'm doing:
| Quote: | | You combine some Bleach and Drain Cleaner to produce chlorine. Using Iron Shavings as the catalyst, you induce a chemical reaction, causing the
Benzene to chlorinate. The specialised filter allows you to distil Chlorobenzene from the resultant compound. You store it in another flask.
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CobaltChloride
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That does sound like chemistry to me. There's nothing that sounds really wrong there.
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TheMrbunGee
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| Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney |
| Quote: | | Maybe the cellar is filled with something that reacts with chlorine so it would use up quickly. |
Em...radiation?
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Radiation would not destroy chlorine.
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EPDGaffney
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Thanks.
I was partially joking, as Fallout's treatment of radiation is fairly ridiculous and all-encompassing. But the bit I meant seriously was that
whatever substance is producing the radiation can interact with the chlorine as you suggested.
The cellar was a covered-up lab where they conducted biological experiments before the Great War that turned the world into a post-apocalyptic
dystopia (though most of that portion is blocked off to the player and they can just get hints of that). Meaning basically anything you tell me would
cause what you had in mind, I can use.
But I'm a little more interested in something that can turn DDT or a DDT-like substance more immediately toxic. Or the propellant can be what becomes
toxic (if I do need one, which I think I do). Flamers use a nitro-based one if I recall. Would that work with DDT or would that cause problems once
the two interact and before it hits the insects (or crops, as it was intended to do years before the player ever gets to this place)?
If anyone knows, the answer is welcome, but I may be able to find out myself what they actually used when DDT was more prominent.
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aga
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DDT is a boring choice.
Younger players (i.e. your Market) will not even know what it is/was.
This fabrication was really thin from the start.
If you really are making a game, take what you got and make a game.
Do we get a sneak-preview of an actual screenshot ? Thought not.
Nothing in this thread was un-findable with a few hours on google.
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Sulaiman
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Maybe chlorine would cause fire-extinguishing stuff to go off,
chasing the enemy out of the cellar ?
Or more evilly,
it would damage the locking mechanism to get through/out of the cellar 
CAUTION : Hobby Chemist, not Professional or even Amateur
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EPDGaffney
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga | DDT is a boring choice.
Younger players (i.e. your Market) will not even know what it is/was.
This fabrication was really thin from the start.
If you really are making a game, take what you got and make a game.
Do we get a sneak-preview of an actual screenshot ? Thought not.
Nothing in this thread was un-findable with a few hours on google. |
Wait, you were serious before? Your comment did read as a little insulting and I thought I was reading too much into because when I posted on an
architecture forum for some help a few years back, some people were happy to help but a lot of them just kept insulting me in an effort to make me
feel like an outsider and get out of their house.
Right so, why would I be here? I mean, really? What is the thing you think I'm doing instead of 'making a game'? I happen to be making a different
game that I put on hold to make this mod for a Fallout game, something people do fairly often.
And sorry but I came here as a last resort after spending about a week doing my head in with what I was finding on Google. Maybe if you understand
chemistry already, it makes sense, but I don't, so I had to learn a lot of basic stuff just to understand the bare minimum of what was on any given
page regarding what I was trying to understand.
DDT was chosen because the game is set in a 1950s-based future, the one that a lot of people in the '50s expected would come to pass after the next
nuclear war.
What 'fabrication'? Why would I be here? I really don't understand what you think I'm actually doing here.
I don't know what 'take what you got and make a game' even means or why you would be encouraging someone to put less science in a game if you are on
this forum because you like science.
| Quote: | | Do we get a sneak-preview of an actual screenshot ? Thought not. |
Em, did you want one? Why did you not just ask? I was actually planning to make a video of this part of the mod when it's all done in
hopefully a week, as a sort of thanks to everyone that's doing their best to help me with it, on what I thought was an off-chance someone would be
interested in what little auld me was doing.
I was actually a little afraid that it would seem like showing off when I did that, but if that's what you want, I mean...what would you like a
picture of? Do you play Fallout: New Vegas? Will you recognise what's modded in and what's already part of the game?
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CuReUS
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| Quote: Originally posted by TheMrbunGee | | Maybe you can code a possibility to fill the cellar with Chlorine, but the ceilings are high an bugs are flying above the chlorine, which sinks to the
bottom of premises and proves to be ineffective. |
how would it matter if the gas was lighter or heavier than air if the whole cellar was filled with it? | Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney |
| Quote: | | Maybe the cellar is too big to be filled with deadly concentration of chlorine. |
Oh, can I do that? I asked about this but it must have got lost in the thread as no-one mentioned it again. Because of the warning label I
mentioned, that still may be the best way to handle this, but I may try to incorporate the cellar's size into a secondary reason somewhere.
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that depends on how much bleach and acid the player has access to.Theoretically you could fill the whole earth with chlorine if you had that much
reagents.Each mole of chlorine formed occupies 22.4L.You would then have to calculate lethal concentration and whatnot.That's why the better
explanation is that Cl would destroy the spraying machine because of its corrosiveness | Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney | | Or the propellant can be what becomes toxic (if I do need one, which I think I do). Flamers use a nitro-based one if I recall. Would that work with
DDT or would that cause problems once the two interact and before it hits the insects (or crops, as it was intended to do years before the player ever
gets to this place)? |
compressed air is the propellant -https://ag.umass.edu/greenhouse-floriculture/fact-sheets/spr...
| Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney | | I was actually planning to make a video of this part of the mod when it's all done in hopefully a week, as a sort of thanks to everyone that's doing
their best to help me with it, on what I thought was an off-chance someone would be interested in what little auld me was doing.
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Yes please 
[Edited on 28-5-2018 by CuReUS]
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EPDGaffney
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Thanks, Sulaiman and CuReUS.
I'll use damaging the machine as the reason not to use chlorine here.
What chemical spill in the cellar could have a reäction with the DDT that would cause the whole cellar to become highly toxic afterwards? Even if
it's non-specific, if I have something general I can use to sell the idea, that's great. Otherwise, I think I have something vague I can use as a
back-up plan.
When you chlorinate anything, you need a catalyst, is it? I was hoping to require the iron shavings for the chloral hydrate as well as the
chlorobenzene. Does this make sense?
Thanks again to everyone that's really giving my questions thought. It means a lot. For anyone that's interested, I'm hoping to have a video in
about a week.
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EPDGaffney
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How's this one? Is it like real chemistry or just a load of (can we curse here?) ?
| Quote: |
You distil the Alcohol until anhydrous. You combine Bleach and Drain Cleaner to produce chlorine. Using Iron Shavings you catalyse a chemical
reaction, chlorinating the Alcohol. It is further distilled. You render 98% Sulphuric Acid from the Drain Cleaner and mix it with the crystalline
compound. The Chloral Hydrate is distilled from this. You store it in another flask. Will you attempt to synthesize the Chlorobenzene now?|Yes|No
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CuReUS
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| Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney | | What chemical spill in the cellar could have a reäction with the DDT that would cause the whole cellar to become highly toxic afterwards? Even if
it's non-specific, if I have something general I can use to sell the idea, that's great. Otherwise, I think I have something vague I can use as a
back-up plan. |
| Quote: Originally posted by CuReUS |
just because it doesn't kill you instantly doesn't mean its not toxic in the long run.The player could wear protective breathing gear to make sure he
lasts till the next installment |
| Quote: | | When you chlorinate anything, you need a catalyst, is it? I was hoping to require the iron shavings for the chloral hydrate as well as the
chlorobenzene. Does this make sense? |
it depends on what you want to chlorinate.Chlorinating benzene requires a catalyst,but phenol can be chlorinated by bleach alone.Also there are
different reaction mechanisms at work here.Chlorination of benzene is a electrophilic substitution reaction whereas chorination of ethanol to make
chloral is probably a free radical + intramolecular rearrangement.
HCl and SbCl3 have been used as catalysts -http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2535#p...
chloral hydrate synthesis -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnwuKRMGyh4
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EPDGaffney
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Thank you. In a bit I'll look into how to integrate these catalysts.
I've seen that video, yeah. I was under the impression that the gas generator/aerator a few people were using was just to make the process easier but
wasn't strictly necessary and that the right catalyst could work well enough for our purposes. Does that make actual scientific sense or am I really
far off the mark there?
More pointedly, do I need to use a machine like that and if I do, should it be involved in any way in the Chlorobenzene synthesis?
I see what you're saying about long-term toxicity, and in real life, that would work, but because it's a game, and because it's an RPG, I feel the
effects need to be more immediate to carry weight. Actually, even in real life, people know smoking cigarettes will kill you and they do it anyway,
for example. I mean, I could maybe try to think of something to code in much much later in the game, which may actually be interesting...
But leaving that thought aside, if I didn't do that, and I just gave the player a warning telling them they can't enter the cellar because of
long-term effects, it would feel like a betrayal of the 'role-playing' aspect of an RPG not to let them have the freedom to take that risk. If for
example they're role-playing as someone that hasn't long to live, they probably wouldn't care much about long-term effects.
So, I either need to think of something to have happen much later in the game, or have a way to make the chemical spills in the cellar turn the whole
place toxic when they interact with DDT. I think I'd prefer the latter option for this 'section' of the game, though the idea of coding an effect
that occurs gradually and starts much later is on its own merits interesting.
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aga
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I'm a cranky drunken old bastard, hence the monica (see left).
I really do wish you the best with your game thing.
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EPDGaffney
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aga:
I don't really know what to do with that. It's not really an apology. Is it remorse? I can't tell. What I've inferred based on the amount of time
you're a member of this forum, the number of posts you've contributed, and the lack of negative comments I see you levelling at other forum posters,
is that it has something to do with me personally, and my guess is that it has something to do with a lack of respect for video games. All I can say
to that is that you don't owe me any help if you don't want to offer me any, but I don't see what you gain by actively impeding me. That and a more
scientific approach may be to research these games a bit more and realise that some of them are extremely intellectual and others are mindless tripe;
they run the gamut.
The main reason I'm writing this to you is that whilst I happen to be fairly unemotional and I don't really care about any of the negative stuff
you've been saying, that kind of an attitude can snuff out the drive of some people and have any number of unfortunate consequences. If I may, I'd
urge you to try to avoid that by being more pleasant towards people for whom your contempt may be undue, or simply refrain from interacting with them.
Regarding the last bit, thank you for your kind wishes.
anyone:
What I'm trying to do is to use a catalyst that can be made from something that's already in the game. It's weird that the HCl and SbCl3
catalysts don't always seem to be mentioned. I'm still doing a little research, like on how the bleach and drain cleaner combination compares to the
TCCA in that video.
I was using this frog's instructions for a while, and they didn't seem to use any catalyst. Is this accurate? Some of it's a little vague but at
least to me, it seems to be written by someone that knows what they're doing:
http://www.carolinashootersclub.com/threads/homebrewed-ddt.5...
[Edited on 29-5-2018 by EPDGaffney]
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CuReUS
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| Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney | | I was under the impression that the gas generator/aerator a few people were using was just to make the process easier but wasn't strictly necessary
and that the right catalyst could work well enough for our purposes. Does that make actual scientific sense or am I really far off the mark there?
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its just a way to ensure a steady stream of dry chlorine gas.It has nothing to do with the actual reaction
| Quote: | | More pointedly, do I need to use a machine like that and if I do, should it be involved in any way in the Chlorobenzene synthesis?
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Yes and Yes -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2WV52P3eus
| Quote: | | So, I either need to think of something to have happen much later in the game, or have a way to make the chemical spills in the cellar turn the whole
place toxic when they interact with DDT. |
I can't think of any scientific way the DDT or the flamer fuel could be converted to something more toxic.The only thing I can think of is that you
could replace all the O2 in the room with the insecticide,then the player would have to wear a breathing apparatus
| Quote: Originally posted by EPDGaffney | | I'm still doing a little research, like on how the bleach and drain cleaner combination compares to the TCCA in that video. |
it wouldn't make a difference.You just need something to give Cl2.You can use either bleach or TCCA
| Quote: | | I was using this frog's instructions for a while, and they didn't seem to use any catalyst. Is this accurate? |
Yes,you don't have to use a catalyst to make chloral.I just mentioned them since you were interested in chorination catalysts.
[Edited on 29-5-2018 by CuReUS]
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Bert
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Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".
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| Quote: |
Carbon Monoxide would.
Dips in the landscape surrounding bubbling volcanoes tend to collect it.
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I thing you may mean Carbon dioxide? The monoxide is lighter than air, although quite toxic. The dioxide is heavier than air but not terribly bad for
you, except as it might displace the breathable air.
There have been CO2 mass releases from bodies of water which DID kill the life nearby by blanketing the area with a layer of mostly CO2.
There have also been man made events of the same type, some regretably caused by idiots trying to work in my field.
Really, my main job is safety. There are so many ways to do spectacular effects offered up to those so inclined by the "good ideas fairy", which
someone more experienced has to explain why NOT to do in real life...
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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EPDGaffney
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Thanks a million, CuReUS. Most here have been helpful, but you've consistently gone above and beyond and I really appreciate it.
That video and the source it has in the description formed a major part of my research before coming here. I think there was a crucial
misunderstanding on my part in that I thought a gas generator was some electric device, but from what I can tell, it can be but is just as
often the name for any arrangement of flasks and tubes that routes a gas efficiently from the initial point of interaction between the substances
producing the gas. And an aerator seems to be the same thing but specifies that it routes, I suppose 'air' normally?
Whatever it is, if both chlorination processes require it, it doesn't really impact the gameplay side, so I'll let that alone and maybe mention it in
the description of the chemical manipulations as the player 'does' them.
I was mostly interested in chlorination catalysts as I thought somehow that they were required for this. If I could work in a way to make one from an
already extant game item, I would probably require it for the player here, but I didn't see anything that would help me there. But for the
chlorobenzene, was the iron catalyst required or simply a way of making it more efficient? If the latter, I should probably do the same for
the chloral.
I think I'll just be vague about the chemical spills in the cellar and say the insecticide caused them to release toxic particles or toxic gas or
whatever. In this setting, it's entirely plausible that there have been chemical discoveries that are not extant or even possible in our world. It
should be grand. Also, I'm probably going to use both our ideas, and make it so that players that survive the rapidly draining health have an
affliction that will drain 1 HP from their maximum every day or so until they cure it. Just have to come up with what that cure should be. Going to
the doctor would be too simple. I'll have a think...
So, how does this sound?
| Quote: | | You distil the Alcohol until anhydrous. You combine Bleach and Drain Cleaner to produce chlorine. The Grain Alcohol is chlorinated and then further
distilled. You render 98% Sulphuric Acid from the Drain Cleaner and mix it with the crystalline compound. The Chloral Hydrate is distilled from this.
You store it in another flask.%r%rWill you attempt to synthesise the Chlorobenzene now?|Yes|No |
Bert:
Thanks. You know, funny enough, that was my first thought, but I assumed I wasn't remembering right as I don't really consider myself knowledgeable
on chemistry. It's a good job I'm programming my dangerous experiments into a computer game and not real life, haha.
And I meant to tell you last time you came round, I really love your signature. Anatol Rapoport has gained a new fan.
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aga
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[rquote]... carbon dioxide...[/rquote]
DOH !
That'd be the one. Cheers.
[Edited on 29-5-2018 by aga]
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CuReUS
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You were right,high dose of DDT can kill.All your problems are solved now
correct.Also an aerator doesn't generate O2,it just takes it from the surrounding air,unlike a gas generator.You don't
have to dry or purify the O2 coming out of an aerator,but you must for the gas coming out of a gas generator.
| Quote: | | But for the chlorobenzene, was the iron catalyst required or simply a way of making it more efficient? |
it was required
[Edited on 30-5-2018 by CuReUS]
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