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Author: Subject: EPP 15% Sulphuric acid !
Sulaiman
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[*] posted on 27-5-2018 at 16:34
EPP 15% Sulphuric acid !


I just noticed that the UK EPP now covers sulphuric acid >= 15%

EDIT: removed a childish rant :(

[Edited on 28-5-2018 by Sulaiman]




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[*] posted on 27-5-2018 at 17:10


WHAT?! Jesus fucking christ. That's positively ridiculous. A lab without conc. sulphuric acid is properly crippled.

It's becoming painfully clear that we do not live in a free country any more.

Here's the relevant change to the law: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/451/made. Honestly I'm surprised it hasn't had media attention considering the situation with acid attacks.

So it seems that this comes into force re acquiring sulphuric acid on the 1st of June (i.e. Friday), but for posession/use we have until 1st November. So I strongly recommend that you order some ASAP if you don't already have a sufficiently-large stock. I notice that several sellers have already stopped supplying sulphuric acid drain cleaners.

The govt have also published a laughably-infuriating "impact assessment": https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukia/2018/67/pdfs/ukia_20180067_en.pdf.

Some angry snippets from that:

1 GOLD PLATING.png - 1.1MB

2 OBJECTIVES.png - 659kB

3 HOURLY.png - 925kB

4 DISCRIMINATORY.png - 1MB

[Edited on 28-5-2018 by DavidJR]




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[*] posted on 27-5-2018 at 20:43


Well, I feel truly sorry for all my British friends. I don't know what i'd do without my H2SO4, and everyone in the UK is getting screwed by this. I could kinda understand the DCM one in america (not really tbh, but at least there was a viable argument for it) but this is a bit too far...
The stupid thing is that, as with most moronic bans, it doesn't really make the item being banned impossible to get. Just pushes people to more extreme methods. (or make everyone get a precursors license...)
I wish you all the best... I fear the day when these bans catch up to Canada, which they will. I have 10 liters of drain opener (92%) for that day, in hope it never comes.
Best of luck. Stock up within the next 4 days, right?




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[*] posted on 27-5-2018 at 21:53


I wonder how far this will go. Consider the following news story:"scottish man in custody for carrying potato peeler"

It seems anything of any danger is being banned. Soon I do not think it will be possible to get any potentially dangerous substance. After the mineral acids will be NaOH, then the poisons like copper sulfate, and finally they will extend it to things that can be used to make dangerous chemicals like ferricyanides.

First they came for the weapons, and I did not care because I owned no weapons. Then they came for the drugs, and I did not care because I was not a drug user. Then they came for the drug precursors, and I did not care because I produced no drugs. Then they came for the mineral acids, and I no one cared about my hobby.

Edit by Texium: removed link to Breitbart "news story"

[Edited on 5-28-2018 by Texium (zts16)]




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[*] posted on 28-5-2018 at 03:50


Well, looks like I'll be needing a lot more copper chloride sooner than I thought. :/

Good look taking all the wires out of my house, electricity out of my walls and salt off my table... now its just waiting a game for them to ban solid sulphur. Jokes on them, I know where a sulphur mine is.

[Edited on 28-5-2018 by Swinfi2]
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[*] posted on 28-5-2018 at 07:33


I guess technically oleum having >85% SO3 is still allowed though...

Contact process at home anyone?




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[*] posted on 28-5-2018 at 10:11


Sad but not at all surprising - given the increase in acid attacks and media coverage in the U.K. This has also eliminated any possible sympathy for the home chemist.

The near absence of coverage in the media must be some sort of 'understanding' with the authorities to minimise stockpiling.

Introduction just after a Bank Holiday weekend also seems somewhat 'convenient'

Also interesting how magnesium and aluminium powders have suddenly been added to part 3 of schedule 1A
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[*] posted on 28-5-2018 at 11:35


I honestly find it hilarious about the aluminium powder, like seriously, does nobody in England have a ball mill?

I'm just waiting for:
"Excuse me sir your not allowed to buy that washing machine you look like a terrorist and you could re-purpose it"
"We're writing to inform you that we're disconnecting your electricity supply as we have reason to suspect you'll use it to make explosives"
"Breaking News: UK Government announced that terrorist organisations are planning to use oxygen from the air in improvised incendiary weapons so have banned any and all chemical reactions classified as 'Oxidation'."
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[*] posted on 28-5-2018 at 12:28


Bejesus !

What's next ? An Illegal quantity of water ?
A Dangerous Stirring Tool, closely resembling a plastic spoon ?
An illegally re-purposed container, originally used for Pepsi (the Coca-cola one is obviously exempt) ?

Move to a different country.

I can highly recommend anywhere at least 1000km South of your current location.

Far better weather and less Nanny State insanity.




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[*] posted on 28-5-2018 at 14:16


The magnesium/Aluminium powder thing is just mandatory reporting of sales. I personally don’t have a problem with sales being reported to the govt as long as I can still actually buy what I want.



I have ordered a case of 12L of One Shot drain cleaner from an eBay seller.

[Edited on 28-5-2018 by DavidJR]




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[*] posted on 28-5-2018 at 16:32


Wow i live in amarica anx im triggered.
Im just wondering when acids are going to be baned hear. I live in northern Minnesota so things are still a bit lax hear ( Its discontinued but i can still by 2 pound containers of NaOH.) But what hapens when you can only find 5% H2SO4 and viniger will be almost 0% acetic acid but we will still have 3000 calorie burgers and malnutrished fat people. I mean what the fuck one person blows in a subway station and sulfuric acid is diluted to the point of no return in england if that happened in America it would be banned. What is wrong with people. Ok rant over sorry if i offended you but close the stop cock you call your mouth.
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[*] posted on 28-5-2018 at 16:38


ok so people are gonna switch to molten sugar attacks now lol maybe london gonna tackle its obesity problem next

do they think gang bangers are that retarded? people will just melt sugar in a fucking thermos :(

[Edited on 29-5-2018 by coppercone]
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[*] posted on 28-5-2018 at 17:05


Quote: Originally posted by coppercone  
ok so people are gonna switch to molten sugar attacks now lol maybe london gonna tackle its obesity problem next

do they think gang bangers are that retarded? people will just melt sugar in a fucking thermos :(


Well, it's done under the Explosives Precursors and Poisons regulations, as they claim it's an explosives precursor. I guess technically yes it is ... but frankly there's a lot of things you could claim are explosives precursors and be technically correct.

I'm pretty sure though that's just the excuse they're using and are actually banning it because of the media attention that acid attacks get. Ugh, politics.

But you're absolutely right. If you've decided to attack someone with acid then you're probably not gonna say "ah damnit I can't get sulphuric acid, nevermind". You're gonna use something else. Whether that be another corrosive (hydroxide based cleaners?), or just a hot liquid - there has been numerous cases of people using boiling water to attack their victims and honestly the results of that can be just as horrendous as the acid.

I'm fed up with having my rights taken away just because a tiny minority of the population do shitty things like throw acid in peoples' faces and blow up busy public transport etc.

Also, the impact assessment says that the products have limited uses - what fucking bollocks. Sulphuric acid is an incredibly versatile chemical, as evidenced by the enormous scale of its industrial production.

--

I suppose though, unlike the US, we don't have the same regulation around versatile chemicals arbitrarily declared drug precursors (again technically correct but ignorant of other uses). I can legally have red phosphorus, iodine, benzaldehyde, chloral hydrate, acetic anhydride, potassium permanganate, ... etc. And to be honest I don't think this sort of legislation is likely to appear here, because we don't have quite the same obsession with a "war on drugs" that the US does.

[Edited on 29-5-2018 by DavidJR]




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[*] posted on 29-5-2018 at 01:38


No doubt those who were using sulphuric acid as a weapon will switch to using industrial bleach or whatever.
This solves nothing and pisses off some.
It's a typical "illusion of security" response from a government that won't tackle the root issues.

I note with interest that my bottle of drain cleaner may make me a criminal in November, but not in October.
That's an indication of how rational this law is.
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[*] posted on 1-6-2018 at 04:45


I mentioned the ban a while back in social and legal, i got alot of stick privately for it so stopped posting information. But the next two will be also be in by the end of the year......

Sodium Hydroxide over 12% and Hydrochloric acid over 5%. It would have been sooner but there has been a back lash with soap makers.

Funny thing is soap makers get laughed at (not real chemists), but they do get organized on twitter etc and organize themselves.

I expect this post will also get laughed at, fair enough but stock the two chems listed above. No idea when but just about all chemistry at home is going to be stopped without a license.

Time frame? 2-3 years
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[*] posted on 1-6-2018 at 06:00


Thanks for the heads up, I’m ordering myself another two litres of drain cleaner as we speak. It’s such a split and controversial topic, even my girlfriend would rather that I’m unable to buy it than see acid attacks continue. The thing is though, you ban one thing and people will ALWAYS find another way to harm others. I seriously wonder if we’ll eventually have to get petrol licenses, you know, because of all the arson attacks and its use against police in riots.



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[*] posted on 1-6-2018 at 07:54


There'll be no need for a petrol license if someone's nicked your car's battery just to get some acid.



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[*] posted on 1-6-2018 at 09:17


Previously, I seldom bothered with using nitric acid if I could help it- sulphuric was much easier to get.
But, if the stop me simply buying sulphuric acid I can make it.
Burn sulphur, dissolve in water and oxidise the SOx to make H2SO4.
Well, if I have the kit for doing that, I can use it to oxidise ammonia.
Their "plan" to reduce the availability of explosives precursors just increased the probability of me making one of the best ones.

It's about as well thought through as the psychoactive substances act.
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[*] posted on 1-6-2018 at 12:10


Well, the EPP is looking more and more like this. Not that it will stop any crime. In the United States, I think there are less acid attacks than there are attacks setting people on fire with gasoline, even though acids are not really regulated. "Bodily arson" is probably nearly as harmful and easy-to-do to an unprepared victim as an acid attack, and British criminals will probably pick it up as corrosive compounds get banned.

I've been thinking about the implications of making restricted chemicals at home, especially ones like acetone or sulfuric acid, that are then used for other reactions. Obviously, you could get in some trouble if you get caught making something that's not legal to possess. But there are other uncertainties in the question "can I make this at home?" I have heard it argued once in a while that "these bans don't do anything; people will just make (insert chemical that is regulated but shouldn't be) at home, using (ingredients like air or urine or sea salt, that can never be banned)!" True, sometimes, but in so many cases it is difficult/expensive/impossible to make these compounds in usable quantity, purity, or concentration. Amateur chemists are probably more capable of DIY chemical production than criminals are (both due to chemical expertise and a need for smaller quantities) but it really affects both. There are reagents that can be made by an amateur very easily and in a useable state. Anhydrous ammonia and the chlorate salts are outstanding examples (I believe potassium chloride itself is regulated in some bombing-prone nations like Afghanistan, because it has been converted to chlorate so easily. I can't find the source right now, though). However, I know many people have tried to produce hard to get reagents (especially nitric acid) and had their processes fail, or only show slight production. Some basic industrial processes work flawlessly scaled down and simplified in a beaker and others seem to require an entire chemical plant to show any real success.

That being said, I wish the best of luck to the people trying to make useable amounts of nitric&sulfuric acids, acetone, etc at home. If you can succeed, it will be a gift to all! This might even be basis for some sort of competition: make some xyz, using only raw materials that are either easy to find and extract in nature (salt, cellulose) or are else used so widely, with so few alternatives, that they are unlikely to be banned (calcium sulfate, steel.) Of course, Aga did something very similar in his nitric acid challenge, and it turned out that creating nitric acid at home from scratch, without any nitrates to start with, was not an easy undertaking. But it still might be worth trying to make sulfuric acid, or oxalic acid, or acetone, or hydrogen peroxide, or (soon) sodium hydroxide and hydrochloric acid. Sadly, a lot of members (the ones who need to circumvent the EPP and similar regulations) could be breaking laws just by participating in such a challenge. I'm not giving a challenge here, just suggesting the idea.

[Edited on 1-6-2018 by Vomaturge]
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[*] posted on 1-6-2018 at 12:38


Acid attacks are not common in the U.S.. I suppose it must happen, but if you do something really bad in the U.S., the legal system will attempt to kill you.... Or, make you wish you were dead. We don't play. So ask yourself, before you do something terrible..... What kind of life will I have, after completing a 500 year prison sentence, in a miserable, violent, U.S. prison?

Still, Sulfuric acid is not as available as it once was. Liability concerns I suppose.

Most Chem suppliers no longer sell over-the-counter retail, and while we can purchase most things on-line; Hazmat shipping charges usually stifle the joy.

I can get a good deal on a 55 gallon drum of concentrated, high quality H2SO4, shipped "freight", from across the country, but I only need a liter or so. And, a liter or so.... is hard to acquire locally.
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[*] posted on 1-6-2018 at 13:24


Still, there are plenty of shootings, stabbings, beatings, rapes, and occasionally burnings bombings and poisonings. Blocking one specific type of violence will hardly keep violent criminals from seeking similar, but still available methods of hurting others.

In fact, the main reason for less acid attacks in the USA is likely just the wide availability of guns and knives. The acid attacks are an alternative, at least for the worst criminals, who aren't trying to fight other thugs or steal, but only want to target unsuspecting, unarmed citizens. Gasoline would likely serve these terrible people just as well. It would be easier to counteract (e.g. with a fire extinguisher) than an acid, but I imagine it also hurts the target faster (seconds as opposed to minutes), and is very easily bought without suspicion. So banning every corrosive chemical will still not stop this type of attack. Banning all flammable and toxic compounds would really mess up everyone's lifestyle, and would still leave other kinds of attacks like slashing throats, punching, and hitting people in the face with hammers and rocks. So these bans of all these chemicals are just stupid and ridiculously ineffective against terror, domestic violence, etc.

[Edited on 1-6-2018 by Vomaturge]
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[*] posted on 1-6-2018 at 14:25


Quote: Originally posted by aga  
There'll be no need for a petrol license if someone's nicked your car's battery just to get some acid.


Most UK lead acid batteries are becoming sealed and gel type, some cars you cant even change the battery yourself as it resets the ecu, some also have those funny security screws.

Drain opener has shot up in price and getting hard to get, even with a registered company i am having problems. I recently ordered from fischer scientific, some the chems were for someone else on here.

Last weekend my local policeman turned up yet again!! He came straight out and asked to see my storeroom again.

At the moment fischer are refusing to send me the chems which is really odd as i spoke with the rep before ordering and he said it was all ok.

I( am aware some think i am barking mad, but for some really odd reason i certain branch of chemistry seems to be getting better treatment than other areas of home chem.

Keep an eye out on twitter, i am aware some the soap people also do 'real; chemistry and want to form a group to represent home chemists. I doubt it will get as far as the soap group, home chemists seem to like the underground and would rather not poke there heads up over the wall.

But anyone who has had enough i would encourage to join one the groups, down side is you will need to be squeaky clean. But then again go back 2-3 years and look at the difference today, do we really want to just stand by?

BTW it isnt any kind of protest group, they want to form some kind of 'body or association' to represent us as a group.
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[*] posted on 1-6-2018 at 18:50


Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  

Most UK lead acid batteries are becoming sealed and gel type, some cars you cant even change the battery yourself as it resets the ecu, some also have those funny security screws.

You could still get the acid out of a SLAB, it'd just be a bit destructive... And with care I am sure you could change the battery on a picky car like that by carefully putting the new one in parallel with the old one, so that the power supply is never interrupted. Would have to ensure the battery voltages are equal of course, else a very large current will flow.

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  

Drain opener has shot up in price and getting hard to get, even with a registered company i am having problems. I recently ordered from fischer scientific, some the chems were for someone else on here.

Last weekend my local policeman turned up yet again!! He came straight out and asked to see my storeroom again.

At the moment fischer are refusing to send me the chems which is really odd as i spoke with the rep before ordering and he said it was all ok.

I do hope I haven't caused you too much trouble!

Try eBay for drain opener. I just bought a case of 12 litres of One Shot (91% H2SO4) for £60.




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[*] posted on 1-6-2018 at 19:55


Quote: Originally posted by zed  
Acid attacks are not common in the U.S.. I suppose it must happen, but if you do something really bad in the U.S., the legal system will attempt to kill you.... Or, make you wish you were dead. We don't play. So ask yourself, before you do something terrible..... What kind of life will I have, after completing a 500 year prison sentence, in a miserable, violent, U.S. prison?

The difference with the US system is that when someone gets really pissed off here, they go out and buy/steal as many guns as they can carry and shoot up a school. As long as guns are still widely available, there's no point to any of those other types of attacks. So I guess we chemists should be thankful to the NRA for at least one thing.

Sulfuric acid has been available as drain opener for virtually every ACE or TrueValue hardware store I've ever been to. Lowe's and Home Depot never carry it, probably just because they're really large companies and it's not worth selling both acid-based and alkali-based drain openers to customers. So they only sell the alkali ones, and limit their liability.




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[*] posted on 2-6-2018 at 13:20


Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  

Most UK lead acid batteries are becoming sealed and gel type, some cars you cant even change the battery yourself as it resets the ecu, some also have those funny security screws.

You could still get the acid out of a SLAB, it'd just be a bit destructive... And with care I am sure you could change the battery on a picky car like that by carefully putting the new one in parallel with the old one, so that the power supply is never interrupted. Would have to ensure the battery voltages are equal of course, else a very large current will flow.

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  

Drain opener has shot up in price and getting hard to get, even with a registered company i am having problems. I recently ordered from fischer scientific, some the chems were for someone else on here.

Last weekend my local policeman turned up yet again!! He came straight out and asked to see my storeroom again.

At the moment fischer are refusing to send me the chems which is really odd as i spoke with the rep before ordering and he said it was all ok.

I do hope I haven't caused you too much trouble!

Try eBay for drain opener. I just bought a case of 12 litres of One Shot (91% H2SO4) for £60.


The problem with battery acid is getting caught with it, i am legal and comply 100% but lately the amount of aggro i am getting is madness.

I know why i am getting problems and its nothing to do with me personally, probably more like guilty by association.

No you havnt caused me any problems, in fact its given me the push to grab this by the nuts and get it sorted. Everything was/is in my name, so there should be no issue.

I will get it sorted out, i have a friend who lives 25 miles away and has a lab, he dosnt get the problems i get. But there are differences between where we live, i dont think most of it is aimed directly at me i think its for other reasons local to me.

Dosnt help i found out we have a tiny military base a couple of miles up the road!! all the time i lived here and i didnt know it existed.
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