Not logged in [Login - Register]
 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Special topics » Energetic Materials » New Nitrogen Era? Pentazolate (N5 anion) Energetic Salts Synthesized With Low Impact Sensitivity Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues   » Detritus   » Test Forum

Pages:  1
Author: Subject: New Nitrogen Era? Pentazolate (N5 anion) Energetic Salts Synthesized With Low Impact Sensitivity
DubaiAmateurRocketry
International Hazard

Posts: 839
Registered: 10-5-2013
Location: LA, CA, USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: In research

New Nitrogen Era? Pentazolate (N5 anion) Energetic Salts Synthesized With Low Impact Sensitivity

Lets go back a little bit.

2017:

First "real" synthesis that's not just an observation.
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/355/6323/374

and as usual, a lot of "comments" and critics

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/359/6381/eaao3672

and then the responses, but as they fought on if N5- really existed...

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/359/6381/aas8953

Others made it too! Here late 2017, we have some studies using highpressure to synthesize N5.

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.chemmater.6b04538

And then metal-complexes of the N5..

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/asia.2018004...

and caged structures.. like Na20N60

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ange.2017106...

Hmm.. Just wow.

And finally, pentazolate anion as energetic materials! Not the strongest yet, but moderate sensitivity (15J) and around ~8000 m/s VoD

[M(H2O)4(N5)2]·4H2O (M = Mn, Fe and Co) and [Mg(H2O)6(N5)2]·4H2O
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23662

Energetic Materials of Pentazolate:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/asia.2018001...

Cesium Pentazolate:
https://aip.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1063/1.4971510

[Ag(NH3)2]+[Ag3(N5)4]ˉ
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-03678-y

(NaN5)5[(CH6N3)N5](N5)3- and (NaN5)2(C2H4N4)
http://engine.scichina.com/publisher/scp/journal/SCMs/doi/10...

And obviously, what about pentazenium pentazolate? Also, waiting for klapotke on his first pentazolate paper

[Edited on 2-6-2018 by DubaiAmateurRocketry]
DubaiAmateurRocketry
International Hazard

Posts: 839
Registered: 10-5-2013
Location: LA, CA, USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: In research

Also, similar to oxides on tetrazole, what are the theoretical conditions that oxides on pentazole can form?

The hydroxylammonium, guanidine, polyaminoguanidines, polyaminotetrazoles, azodicarbonamide, carbazide salts of pentazolate might also exist with some stability.
Tdep
National Hazard

Posts: 457
Registered: 31-1-2013
Location: Fixed Lasers
Member Is Offline

Mood: *laser noises*

Lets take on the pentazole. Sciencemadness has previously made the magical world of the tetrazole a fairly easy task for the average home chemist, so perhaps we could do the same to the pentazole??
Once we're at the pentazole anion, there's a world of cutting edge chemistry waiting. People took that anion and mixed it with cobalt, iron, silver salts, and got into Nature! Probably the most prestigious journal in the world. I'm not saying it was easy, but never have I been so excited to try some cutting edge chemistry. And what's next, nitrogen sandwich compounds? Or just half sandwich compounds? Brand new organo-nitrogen chemistry, it's all possible.

Pictured is the reaction scheme we somehow need to achieve. Sure, everything needs to be cold, but that's a hurdle we can cross later. First up, comes the issue of the starting molecule.

2,6-Dimethyl-4-amino-phenol. There's 2 possibilities: either the two methyl 'blocking' groups are a complete necessity, or they're not. Lets explore the first option first:

That molecule isn't too common. Adding methyl/alkene groups to a benzene ring? Trash. Adding a phenol group? Shit. Adding an amine group? Well that's not too hard. If you had 2,6-dimethylphenol (from now on called '2,6-xylenol'), a mild nitration followed by a reduction, easy. So is there a source of 2,6-xylenol? I can't seem to think of an easily available one.

Another option is the plastic Poly(p-phenylene oxide) (PPO). Not all that common but i'm sure everyone would be able to find some around the house. If hydrolysis is performed however, will it break into 2,6-xylenol, or will it break into 3,5-xylenol? Or a bit of both??

The other option is the the methyl groups aren't strictly necessary. In that case one could use p-amino-phenol, which is only one step away from paracetamol! But yeah, those methyl groups are likely there for a reason.

Σldritch
Hazard to Others

Posts: 162
Registered: 22-3-2016
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

I am guessing those methyl groups are there to add electrons to the aromatic ring because that seems consistent with the phenolate so maybe another deprotonated hydroxyl group or two could replace it. If that is the case then dichloronitrobenzene seems like the easiest way to start.
Tsjerk
International Hazard

Posts: 1229
Registered: 20-4-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline

Mood: Mood

I looked a bit into p-amino-phenol before and too bad but it is very sensitive to oxidative polymerization (becomes black crap). So unless you can work under anoxic conditions it will make your life unpleasant (the m-amino-phenol is a lot easier to work with, but not useful here).

I think the poly(p-phenylene oxide) monomer would be a way to get your molecule. I think decomposition of the polymer will give you a lot of crap, as the polymer is not an ester. Also the plastic is not used in its pure form.

maybe get a sample from a manufacturer?

Ah, I found this:
 Quote: The thermal degradation of polyphenylenes and poly(phenylene oxides) was studied under vacuum at temperatures between 350 and 620°C. The volatile and solid degradation products were analyzed by mass spectroscopy, infrared spectroscopy, and elemental analysis. Overall mechanisms for the thermal breakdown have been proposed. Polyphenylene decomposes to form polymer carbon, while hydrogen is the major volatile product. Some ring breakdown occurs with evolution of methane.
I don't see how hydrolysis could help here.

Edit: as this is quite cutting edge stuff I would stick to the published routes, not trying to substitute/ghetto anything.

Apparently it is a food additive....

[Edited on 4-6-2018 by Tsjerk]
Tdep
National Hazard

Posts: 457
Registered: 31-1-2013
Location: Fixed Lasers
Member Is Offline

Mood: *laser noises*

I agree, I don't really want to substitute anything. It is even dangerous too, it's a lot of nitrogens to herd into a small paddock.
But if we can never getting the starting material, we can never start. The 2,6-xylenol is avaliable on eBay, 30g for $100 so there's always that option to fall back on, but maybe there is something more inventive? Good reference about the PPO. The hydrolysis of PET proceeded so nicely but you're right, I'm confusing esters with ethers, it's a lot nice to break an ester than an ether. It doesn't look like a viable option at all. Tsjerk International Hazard Posts: 1229 Registered: 20-4-2005 Location: Netherlands Member Is Offline Mood: Mood Ah, if you can get 2,6-xylenol I would start with that. I don't see any problems nitrating and reducing that. The meta position is de-activated, and nitrating the para will de-activate it even further. Texium (zts16) Super Moderator Posts: 2994 Registered: 11-1-2014 Location: San Marcos, TX Member Is Offline Mood: Organiking It should be possible to synthesize 4-amino-2,6-dimethylphenol by acetylating 4-aminophenol and then running a double Friedel-Crafts alkylation with methyl iodide followed by deprotection of the amine DubaiAmateurRocketry International Hazard Posts: 839 Registered: 10-5-2013 Location: LA, CA, USA Member Is Offline Mood: In research Heres another pentazole synthesis chart - I hope this is more clear. clearly_not_atara International Hazard Posts: 1407 Registered: 3-11-2013 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood  Quote: Originally posted by Texium (zts16) It should be possible to synthesize 4-amino-2,6-dimethylphenol by acetylating 4-aminophenol Also good for treating headaches! Seriously though, if that FC alkylation works then this is the way. If not, maybe you can pull off a double Mannich reaction followed by reduction. Also, you could possibly replace those two methyl groups by methoxy groups if you start with syringol and just nitrate/reduce. The nitration would have to be somehow mild, or you could try a nitrosation. [Edited on 04-20-1969 by clearly_not_atara] Texium (zts16) Super Moderator Posts: 2994 Registered: 11-1-2014 Location: San Marcos, TX Member Is Offline Mood: Organiking Quote: Originally posted by clearly_not_atara  Quote: Originally posted by Texium (zts16) It should be possible to synthesize 4-amino-2,6-dimethylphenol by acetylating 4-aminophenol Also good for treating headaches! Seriously though, if that FC alkylation works then this is the way. If not, maybe you can pull off a double Mannich reaction followed by reduction. Duh-doi! Of course there's no need for starting with p-aminophenol and acetylating it when paracetamol is OTC and already the main source for p-aminophenol for amateurs! That makes the route even more easy and OTC since it eliminates the need for acetic anhydride. Sigmatropic Hazard to Others Posts: 182 Registered: 29-1-2017 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood Has anyone considered propofol as a starting material. There must be some online vendors supplying this material although I doubt it will be technically legal to import APIs. Perhaps the tert butyl derivative is more suitable? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,6-Di-tert-butylphenol Could it be accessible from tert butanol and phenol? Texium (zts16) Super Moderator Posts: 2994 Registered: 11-1-2014 Location: San Marcos, TX Member Is Offline Mood: Organiking I wouldn't want to work with propofol due to the legal implications. And even if you could get it with a prescription, it would probably be very expensive. [Edited on 6-4-2018 by Texium (zts16)] DubaiAmateurRocketry International Hazard Posts: 839 Registered: 10-5-2013 Location: LA, CA, USA Member Is Offline Mood: In research Very interesting, but, is all of this too much? 100 grams of 2,6-Dimethyphenol is 20$, from the notoriously costly Sigma Aldrich

https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/aldrich/d175005...

Tdep
National Hazard

Posts: 457
Registered: 31-1-2013
Location: Fixed Lasers
Member Is Offline

Mood: *laser noises*

I suppose you're right, it does seem like a cheap industrial chemical. I can't buy directly from Sigma, and Sigma ships this particular chemical from the US anyway, but there are members on Scimad we could buy this through?
Texium (zts16)
Super Moderator

Posts: 2994
Registered: 11-1-2014
Location: San Marcos, TX
Member Is Offline

Mood: Organiking

The dimethylation and subsequent de-acylation of acetaminophen really shouldn't be too hard. If there is interest, I would be happy to conduct that synthesis and send some of the (NMR verified pure) product to anyone interested who would pay the cost of shipping and credit me in their write-ups! I'd be happy to be part of a collaborative project with you EM'ers.

DubaiAmateurRocketry
International Hazard

Posts: 839
Registered: 10-5-2013
Location: LA, CA, USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: In research

 Quote: Originally posted by Texium (zts16) I would be happy to conduct that synthesis and send some of the (NMR verified pure) product to anyone interested who would pay the cost of shipping and credit me in their write-ups!

Synthesis of?

(N5)6(H3O)3(NH4)4Cl ? The pentazolate as described in Zhang et al?

[Edited on 5-6-2018 by DubaiAmateurRocketry]
Tsjerk
International Hazard

Posts: 1229
Registered: 20-4-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline

Mood: Mood

I guess he is talking about the 4-amino-2,6-dimethyl-phenol

Edit:
In case the amino-phenol seems air sensitive; Couldn't the de-acetylation be done one-pot with the diazotization?

[Edited on 5-6-2018 by Tsjerk]
DubaiAmateurRocketry
International Hazard

Posts: 839
Registered: 10-5-2013
Location: LA, CA, USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: In research

Hmm, would he really offer to synthesize a phenol compound for \$ ? I dont think so, he must be talking about the pentazolate salt (I hope so haha)
Tdep
National Hazard

Posts: 457
Registered: 31-1-2013
Location: Fixed Lasers
Member Is Offline

Mood: *laser noises*

The amine phenol wont be air sensitive surely... maybe it might want to polymerise but it should be fine in air.
And what Texium is offering is to turn paracetamol into the 2,6-dimethyl-amino-phenol. And then he is offering to donate some, just for the cost of shipping. He's not trying to make money off of it no, if you want to buy off Sigma go ahead, but I like the cut of his jib.

Personally, I wouldn't be interested in getting some directly from you Texium, but I'd be interested in replicating your results with my own synthetic hands. In the past I have turned paracetamol into p-DDNP and found that the paracetamol was a lovely starting reagent, it purified and crystallised well without any hassle and was cheap as it gets.
Texium (zts16)
Super Moderator

Posts: 2994
Registered: 11-1-2014
Location: San Marcos, TX
Member Is Offline

Mood: Organiking

Tdep is correct- I am offering the 4-amino-2,6-dimethylphenol, which I thought I made clear, but I guess I didn't completely spell that out. I am not offering to synthesize and ship high explosives! I just figured it could save you a step and give me something useful to do.

Edit: another problem with that compound from Sigma is that it would still require nitration and reduction. The nitration should yield the right isomer predominantly, but I know from personal experience that reducing nitrophenols with iron is a huge mess. Starting with paracetamol is cleaner, though you need methyl iodide.

[Edited on 6-5-2018 by Texium (zts16)]

DubaiAmateurRocketry
International Hazard

Posts: 839
Registered: 10-5-2013
Location: LA, CA, USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: In research

 Quote: Originally posted by Texium (zts16) I am not offering to synthesize and ship high explosives! [Edited on 6-5-2018 by Texium (zts16)]

I dont think the ammonium pentazolate hydrate salt in a solution would be anywhere near explosive. What would a price be for that? I might need for 1-3 grams.

Considering the high impact sensitivity of even the energetic N5 salts see :https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/asia.201800187

I dont think the salt is explosive, you can ship me the sodium pentazolate hydrate version if you want, which is probably less explosive than the ammonium version.

[Edited on 5-6-2018 by DubaiAmateurRocketry]
Texium (zts16)
Super Moderator

Posts: 2994
Registered: 11-1-2014
Location: San Marcos, TX
Member Is Offline

Mood: Organiking

Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry
 Quote: Originally posted by Texium (zts16) I am not offering to synthesize and ship high explosives! [Edited on 6-5-2018 by Texium (zts16)]

I dont think the ammonium pentazolate hydrate salt in a solution would be anywhere near explosive. What would a price be for that? I might need for 1-3 grams.

Considering the high impact sensitivity of even the energetic N5 salts see :https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/asia.201800187

I dont think the salt is explosive, you can ship me the sodium pentazolate hydrate version if you want, which is probably less explosive than the ammonium version.
I suppose if the sodium salt is safe in solution, it wouldn't be very hard to make- though I would need to obtain sodium azide, and determine if I have access to a suitable substitute for mCPBA, which I have looked for in the past but found to be virtually unobtainable.

DubaiAmateurRocketry
International Hazard

Posts: 839
Registered: 10-5-2013
Location: LA, CA, USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: In research

m-CPBA is on aldrich for cheap.

I can financially aid you.
Texium (zts16)
Super Moderator

Posts: 2994
Registered: 11-1-2014
Location: San Marcos, TX
Member Is Offline

Mood: Organiking

 Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry m-CPBA is on aldrich for cheap. I can financially aid you.
Being able to order from Aldrich is the problem here, friend, not the expense!

Edit: also, on second thought, this is definitely not what I'd consider cheap for a workhorse reagent that is used stoichiometrically. Especially since it's no greater than 77%, with the remainder being CBA and water...

[Edited on 6-6-2018 by Texium (zts16)]

Pages:  1

 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Special topics » Energetic Materials » New Nitrogen Era? Pentazolate (N5 anion) Energetic Salts Synthesized With Low Impact Sensitivity Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues   » Detritus   » Test Forum