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Author: Subject: Is there a stable organic peroxide explosive?
John paul III
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[*] posted on 6-7-2018 at 09:57
Is there a stable organic peroxide explosive?


Is there a storage-stable organic peroxide explosive that is not too sensitive to be usable?
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greenlight
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[*] posted on 6-7-2018 at 10:06


I don't believe any of the organic peroxide are storage stable. They all reform into dangerously sized crystals upon sitting for more than a few days and eventually just disappear.

I used to make detonators using acetone peroxide as the primary a long time ago and I would synth the minimum amount of AP necessary the day before they were needed. I would make the detonator and destroy the rest and the det would be used straight away with no storing.

I highly recommend using another primary instead and just stay away from the peroxide. Lead azide can be stored for long periods if the caps are sealed airtight.




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Rocinante
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[*] posted on 6-7-2018 at 10:43


Acetone peroxide caps are OK for months (20 - 25°C). HMTD ones, when separated from metal, are OK for months. Tested.. multiple times. The only problem is re-sublimation that exposes HCl traces that attack lead wires, but this is only a surface problem in such a period of time. Re-sublimated AP crystals have bean measured to be no more sensitive than fresh AP at KTTV/University of Pardubice (salt-sized ones).

AP is about as chemically stable as lead azide. HMTD is chemically very unstable, but still storage stable under 15°C and when separated from metal.

Lead azide has moisture-related problems, even dangerous ones when in direct contact with copper.

Pure lead azide is about as dangerous as you can get, more sensitive than AP/HMTD. Avoid.

Properly dried! Highly dextrinated lead azide (the industry can't dextrinate enough due to mechanical issues) .. 10 % or more by weight.. in an air tight blasting cap is about as good as you can get, though.

Geminal hydroperoxides seem to be OK.

[Edited on 6-7-2018 by Rocinante]

[Edited on 6-7-2018 by Rocinante]
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greenlight
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[*] posted on 6-7-2018 at 19:14


I have seen the long term storage on AP, I think even in a freezer for years.
I still would rather not put organic peroxide in caps and store them for months.
If they release HCl vapor inside the cap and attack the lead wires then they technically are not storage stable.

I agree lead azide and AP are about as chemically stable as each other.

Yes, lead azide has moisture problems and must be dry and should be used in aluminium casings.

I forgot to mention in my post that I didn't mean pure lead azide.

In my opinion, dry, dextrinated or PVA coated lead azide handled with the proper safety equipment and respect (which you should any primary), in the minimal amounts you need is better than making peroxide dets. You can make up 10 caps and they will still be fine, as long as they are sealed, to store for years if needed.
Get a static proof wriststrap, earmuffs with earplugs, cut proof gloves under leather gloves, Kevlar sleeves, and a shield, and the only dangerous part is pressing the caps. Once they are sealed they are quite safe.
I think now I have expained properly, you have come to the same agreement at the bottom of your post.

There's a reason the military are still using it despite its toxicity and sensitivity issues, it's such a damn good, storage stable initiator when "stabilized" and it's hard to replace.




[Edited on 7-7-2018 by greenlight]




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symboom
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[*] posted on 6-7-2018 at 21:14


Ascaridole a natural organic peroxide might be the most stable though one needs alot of espazote leaves

[Edited on 7-7-2018 by symboom]




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XeonTheMGPony
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[*] posted on 7-7-2018 at 06:33


LA all so only need .024g per cap, and it can be coated in PVA for better mechanical properties.
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NatashaJurievna
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[*] posted on 23-7-2018 at 10:17


Not only one. Peroxides become futuristic EMs.
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John paul III
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[*] posted on 23-7-2018 at 11:43


Quote: Originally posted by NatashaJurievna  
Not only one. Peroxides become futuristic EMs.

Would you like to elaborate?
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[*] posted on 23-7-2018 at 17:53


Klapötke makes an appearance again (as usual) on "Less sensitive oxygen-rich organic peroxides containing geminal hydroperoxy groups" (attached).

I found out about them from the other attachment: "Recent Advances in the Synthesis of High Explosive Materials" which is a real worthwhile read

Attachment: c5cc05015d.pdf (1.4MB)
This file has been downloaded 181 times

Attachment: SabatiniOylerCrystalsReview.pdf (997kB)
This file has been downloaded 157 times

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Tin man
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[*] posted on 13-8-2018 at 18:44


If your not comfortable handling lead salts, I highly recommend silver acetylide double salt. About 80 mg is all it takes to reliably initiate PETN. And (correct me if I'm wrong) its not very reactive, except to sunlight.
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[*] posted on 16-1-2019 at 16:07


AP can store for years if kept in an airtight container and in a fridge. I personally have a small amount of AP that I have kept in the fridge at 3 degrees celcius for over two years with no degradation. I did notice some crystals did grow with even a small air gap in the sealed container, but when experimented with they proved no more sensitive than when new. I believe even at room temperature and sealed air tight with no air gap it can last a very long time, may be indefinitely. More experiments will have to be done. I usually use sodium bicarbonate with cold H2O to flush through the AP, but this seemed to make no difference of storage stability.

TGT
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FeedMe94
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[*] posted on 16-1-2019 at 18:25


At the moment i have some AP stored in plastic wrap for over a year at temperatures from 15 to 28 celcius. Some crystals grow bigger , way bigger to be honest but still are stable enough as it used to be when it was synthesized.

[Edited on 17-1-2019 by feedme94]
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Flawed Soul
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[*] posted on 18-3-2019 at 17:44


I have some AP that has been stored in an airtight container for a couple months. As far as I can tell the sensitivity has not changed.
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dillee1
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[*] posted on 18-3-2019 at 20:56


Problem with AP seems to be its volatility. AP readily sublimes and condense into larger crystal/lid of the container spontaneously.

Friction/impact/electrostatic sensitivity is usually half way between LA and MF. It seems to be chemically stable if acid free. (ref. primary explosives by Robert Matyas)

So safe storage under water may be possible since sublimation is suppressed?
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DavidJR
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[*] posted on 19-3-2019 at 03:01


Quote: Originally posted by greenlight  
I don't believe any of the organic peroxide are storage stable. They all reform into dangerously sized crystals upon sitting for more than a few days and eventually just disappear.


I'm not sure about its properties as an explosive but benzoyl peroxide is shelf stable. It's commercially available, albeit wetted with 25% or so of water.
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FeedMe94
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[*] posted on 25-3-2019 at 22:47


I have some TATP on a plastic plate covered with plastic food wrap for about a year. Sensitivity is the same as the day i synthesized it. The only think i have to mention is that the crystals are way bigger and it acts like kinetic sand.
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