SsgtHAZMAT
Hazard to Self
Posts: 60
Registered: 13-12-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Alcohol Powder... How?
Alcohol Powder
Ok guys, how do you do this??
|
|
|
not_important
International Hazard
Posts: 3873
Registered: 21-7-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Most likely encapsulated. There's several polymers that will dissolve in water but won't in low water content alcohol, so the micro-balloons of
alcohol would dissolve when they hit water.
Where did you see it?
|
|
|
SsgtHAZMAT
Hazard to Self
Posts: 60
Registered: 13-12-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
It all over fox news It reminds me of that Steven Wright joke, "I have some powered water, but I don't know what to add."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,278519,00.html
|
|
|
Sauron
International Hazard
Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
Member Is Offline
Mood: metastable
|
|
It's seems to me a lot of media hype.
And the gimmick is that supposedly this product evades both excise tax on alcoholic beverages and legal restrictions on sale of alcoholic beverages to
minors (anyone <16 in Holland where this "invention" is centered.) The sheer idiocy of this, is the fallacy that such evasion is somehow
permanent. In reality if such a loophole exists, want to bet how fast it is slammed shut by the legislatures of the world?
This flies in the face of both a major government revenue source everywhere in the world (the "sin tax" on potable alcohol) and also Big Liquor.
Believe me, these kids are going to get an expensive education in the Golden Rule: He who has the gelt, makes the rules.
As to the technical question you posed, I do not know. Sodium ethoxide and citric acid?? That would get you sodium citrate and ethanol. The sodium
ethoxide is a very strong based and very sensitive to moisture, forming alcohol and lye. I don't see how such a mix could ever be deemed to be safe.
Of course this is just a wild guess.
I also believe that ANY such mix, of any composition, would come up against the very serious prejudice against synthetic alcohol vs alcohol produced
by fermentation. This prejudice is so strong that it might as well have the force of law. All potable alcohol is from fermented origin, be it grain,
sugar, starches, molasses, tapioca, rice, or even whey, and the fermentations vary as to yeasts, or fungus in the case of sake, but they are ALL still
fermentations, and ethanol from a dry chemical powder is not. The food regulators and the liquor industry are going to crap in the hats of these young
"inventors" - big time. Watch.
|
|
|
smuv
National Hazard
Posts: 842
Registered: 2-5-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: Jingoistic
|
|
I have wondered this as well.
probably more feasible than sodium ethoxide...a solid ethyl ester that easily hydrolyzes forming ethanol and the corresponding carboxylic acid. This
hydrolysis could occur, upon contact with water (unlikely), in the consumers tummy, or the powder could include an acid/base which catalyzes the
hydrolysis or possibly even a transesterfication when added to water.
Or maybe it just is...encapsulated ethanol
|
|
|
Sauron
International Hazard
Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
Member Is Offline
Mood: metastable
|
|
Whatever, it is still sold for human consumption so it will come under (EU!) f&B nightmare regulations and there is NO evading THAT and there will
be no evading taxation as well, no gimmick is going to thwart the excise man. The liquor game is a rigged one in favor of the axis of Government and
Big Liquor and few interlopers are tolerated. The like of Bols and Ricard will eat these guys for a light snack.
|
|
|
not_important
International Hazard
Posts: 3873
Registered: 21-7-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Dextrin with added alcohol
http://www.patentdigi.com/recreational_buoyancy/alcohol-cont...
| Quote: | | Flowable powders are prepared containing a mixture of food flavoring ingredients, and particulates of expanded dextrin having a bulk density of from
about 0.05 to about 0.30 grams/cubic centimeter, a dextrose equivalent of from about 5 to 15 and a moisture content of about 2% to 6%, and having
sorbed in the dextrin particulates an aqueous alcohol solution to provide from about 30% to 60% by weight ethanol in the resultant ethanol-containing
dextrin particulates. The powders are stable when hermetically packaged and are particularly qualified as alcoholic beverage forming compositions and
flavoring materials since the ethanol-containing dextrin particulates readily dissolve in cold water to form clear low-viscosity, colorless liquids.
|
|
|
|
Sauron
International Hazard
Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
Member Is Offline
Mood: metastable
|
|
All right, but then this is just legerdemain, a parlor trick, slight of hand. The ethanol they put into the dextrin must be potable ethanol and that
means tax was paid on it already. It can't be synthetic alcohol and it can't be denatured alcohol.
They are still in the regulatory box and if there's a tax loophole it will be slammed shut double quick. Same with the sales to minors issue. There's
a good reason why spirits are not sold to minors and that reason applies to this product as well, any legal loophole will shut faster than a miser's
wallet in Scotland.
|
|
|
JohnWW
International Hazard
Posts: 2849
Registered: 27-7-2004
Location: New Zealand
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: | | Originally posted by Sauron(cut) Same with the sales to minors issue. There's a good reason why spirits are not sold to minors and that
reason applies to this product as well, any legal loophole will shut faster than a miser's wallet in Scotland. |
Good reason not to sell alcohol? But the stuff is good for you! It helps prevent the build-up of fatty cholesterol-containing deposits in the
arteries, and spirits also relieve nasal congestion and asthma. Scotch whisky is particularly effective.
|
|
|
not_important
International Hazard
Posts: 3873
Registered: 21-7-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The product could be made in a country which does not heavily tax potable alcohol, or at least when sold at the wholesale level. So many of the
alcohol regulation laws are late 19th century, all based on liquids and fluid measures, that the powder may fall through cracks until they are
patched. Which, as was said, will happen very quickly because there are no greater problems in the world than that.
| Quote: | | Originally posted by Sauron... There's a good reason why spirits are not sold to minors ... |
Indeed, read your Dickens and note the use of alcohol by minors during the period Britain was becoming the industrial power of the world. After the
Evangelicals clamped down on that, the Empire started on its way down.
|
|
|
Sauron
International Hazard
Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
Member Is Offline
Mood: metastable
|
|
Making this "product" in a third country (outside EU) would solve little as it would shift the product from being an internal EU one to being an
import and that would be worse if anything for compliance purposes.
The Dickensian social commentary you are talking about was taking place at a time when the traditional tipple of the vast majority of the population,
which was beer and ale, and to a lesser extent wine (in UK) was being shifted by the relatively recent emergence of gin on a large scale. As you
probably know gin is not like brandy or whiskey. It is neutral spirits (like vodka) flavored by codistillation with various botanicals (notably
juniper) and this is very cheap to manufacture and very profitable.
The churches railed against it in England and blamed gin for a lot of social problems.
Just as in Europe at same time absinthe was demonized and in the US rum was demonized (quite literally it was called Demon Rum).
Anyway I am not campaigning against alcohol, I love the stuff, and was briefly in the business myself (making Absinthe) although diabetes has ended my
own drinking days.
|
|
|
woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 7976
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: interested
|
|
This is the work of a few Dutch students from the city of Boxtel.
Unfortunately I only have a dutch link:
http://www.nu.nl/news/1089919/91/rss/Studenten_ontwikkelen_a...
This powder can be used to make an alcoholic beverage, with appr. 3% of alcohol, when ready to drink. This powder will be made commercially soon, and
the price for one sachet of powder, good for one drink, will be appr. EUR 1.50 (which is appr. $2).
The article does not tell what technology is used, but on a dutch forum I have read about alcohol, incorporated into a crystal lattice of some sugar,
much like water can be part of the crystal lattice of many compound (so-called intercalation compounds, not to be confused with coordinatively bound
water).
|
|
|
Sauron
International Hazard
Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
Member Is Offline
Mood: metastable
|
|
@Woelen, what is the price of a beer in a grocery in Holland? Or a bottle of a wine cooler like Spy or Barardi Breezer?
(The alcohol in wine coolers comes from whey and is very cheap off-tasting stuff that can only be used in these products and in cream liqueuers like
Baileys).
Of course one is sympathetic with the enterprise of students but I fail to see how these students can afford to deal with the massive burdensome and
largely incomprehensible EU food & beverage regulatory nightmare. If they target the under 16 maket they are asking for trouble and they hinge
everything on avoidance of excise tax they will have the business life of a mayfly.
By courting all this media hype they have guaranteed themselves maximum attention from the technocrats in Bruxelles.
|
|
|
garage chemist
chemical wizard
Posts: 1803
Registered: 16-8-2004
Location: Germany
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Its cyclodextrines that are able to absorb alcohol and stay as a dry powder. Thats the secret behind the alcohol powder.
Encapsulation would be too expensive for a simple consumer product like this. Also, what should be used as the encapsulation material that dissolves
with water? I cant imagine that encapsulating alcohol would be feasible.
It might become a party gag, if the powder can be snorted... but the dextrin would probably clog your nose.
[Edited on 7-6-2007 by garage chemist]
|
|
|
Ozone
International Hazard
Posts: 1269
Registered: 28-7-2005
Location: Good Olde USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Integrated
|
|
Perhaps the "solid EtOH" is something like paraldehyde (acetaldehyde trimer) and a little acid. Under acidic aqueous conditions there should be a net
release of acetaldehyde.
Since acetaldehyde is the secondary oxidative metabolite of ethanol (and is the "active" ingredient), paraldehyde could be used to deliver ethanol
"equivalent" dosages.
Just a thought,
O3
-Anyone who never made a mistake never tried anything new.
--Albert Einstein
|
|
|
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5102
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
"(and is the "active" ingredient), "
Sure about that? I'm pretty sure that alcohol works just as well with alcoholics who's livers are too shot to convert it to acetaldehyde; also I think
the kinetics of drinking would go wrong if it were acetladehyde that did the damage.
Acetaldehyde is responsible for a part of the hangover and the general damage done to the body but it's the alcohol istelf that has the effect people
pay for.
|
|
|
garage chemist
chemical wizard
Posts: 1803
Registered: 16-8-2004
Location: Germany
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I tell you, its cyclodextrines, nothing that contains acetaldehyde or paraldehyde would ever be approved for food purposes.
Acetyldehyde is a cancer-suspect chemical, and thats the reason its difficult to buy here. It would NEVER be allowed to be added to food deliberately.
|
|
|
S.C. Wack
bibliomaster
Posts: 2419
Registered: 7-5-2004
Location: Cornworld, Central USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Enhanced
|
|
The process given was used for the older German product. Labelled ingredients of that:
http://www.ciao.de/subyou_alkoholhaltiges_Mixgetranke_Pulver...
This new product is made by the same process?
|
|
|
woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 7976
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: interested
|
|
The price of beer of course depends on brand, but general beer (called "pils" in the Netherlands) with 5% of alcohol has a price range of EUR 0.25 to
EUR 0.50 per bottle of 300 ml. So, the sachets with powdered alcohol still are more expensive, but for certain applications (e.g. backpacking and
wanting to take with you lots of drinks  ) the higher price will not be a real
problem.
Breezers etc. are much more expensive over here, but that of course has to do with branding and status.
[Edited on 8-6-07 by woelen]
|
|
|
Nerro
National Hazard
Posts: 596
Registered: 29-9-2004
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Whatever...
|
|
330mL actually  (I work in a liquor store and no Iwon't buy you cheap whiskey  )
If you want a decent beer €0,50 sounds about right. (That's for Hertog Jan)
About the branding you're entirely right, Whiskey can't be very expensive to produce but it can cost anything up to €350! Just like some Champagnes
cost €50 and some others which are almost exactly as good "only" €20, it's almost all marketing. I once asked my boss what the real difference is
between a €15 bottle of wine and a €300 bottle of wine and he said "about fifteen euro's, why?"
#261501 +(11351)- [X]
the \"bishop\" came to our church today
he was a fucken impostor
never once moved diagonally
courtesy of bash
|
|
|
Ozone
International Hazard
Posts: 1269
Registered: 28-7-2005
Location: Good Olde USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Integrated
|
|
It appears true that acetaldehyde is (although intoxicating in its own right) the illness principle, the self limiter that says "too much booze,
Barfola". So, not such a good idea.
Cyclodextrin (alpha) has an appropriate cavity size, but the internal cavity for the guest-host relationship is hydrophobic. Good (as I have seen with
b-CD) for benzaldehyde, not so good for ethanol. The molecular weight difference (vs. mol/mol) is large which means that you would need a *whole lot*
of powder to get your ounce of ethanol.
The precursor idea is not a bad one, though. I have though some more about this and wonder about a low molecular weight poly-ethylmethacrylate. This
could be partially hydrolized to yield a water soluble species which could hydrolize more in subsequent (acidic or alkaline) solution to give the
poly-acrylic acid and ethanol. Since, in this case, many molar equivalents of ethanol could be bound, we might get a better "bang for the buck".
I'd rather have beer (144oz is about, em, 8.56-12.00 euros here)!
O3
-Anyone who never made a mistake never tried anything new.
--Albert Einstein
|
|
|
franklyn
International Hazard
Posts: 3026
Registered: 30-5-2006
Location: Da Big Apple
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I'm holding out for solid fusel oil , pass the pepper.
|
|
|
Sauron
International Hazard
Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
Member Is Offline
Mood: metastable
|
|
Anyone remember a Rock Hudson-Doris Day comedy called LOVER COME BACK?
Tony Randall plays a chemit assigned to create a product already being advertised, nature unspecified. So he created a chocolate mint candy with the
intoxicating effect of a triple vodka martini.
Much more interesting concept than this lame 3.2 yoohoo these schoolboys have come up with in Holland. Just what the world needs, lyophilized
near-beer.
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
