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Author: Subject: What do you think I should do with my picric acid?
Tsjerk
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[*] posted on 11-8-2018 at 11:36


Very small clumps of lead azide are enough to initiate PETN without the need for much mechanical handeling. Dextrinated lead azide dries in small clumps, I would go that way.
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OneEyedPyro
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[*] posted on 12-8-2018 at 00:33


Quote: Originally posted by Microtek  
Only for the amateur with limited access to chemicals, I would say (although I agree that if you factor in the ease of production, it is quite good).

If you can get a nitrITE source (not nitrATE), it is possible to synthesize a LOT of different primaries (complex azide salts, nitrotetrazoles, etc.). Some of these combine high performance and low sensitivity.



Well yes, naturally an amateur can synthesize primaries that are less friction/impact sensitive and more powerful than what's commonly used.
There is technically very little if anything that's not possible for amatuers given the right knowledge, dedication, and availability of required materials.

According to my crude testing SADS is less friction and impact sensitive than any other easily made primary I've bothered to produce that will consistently work in 100mg or lower quantities.

With that said, I'm probably not any more capable in regards to producing the potentially available compounds than the OP and I don't want to steer them towards anything more dangerous than what's within their grasp.
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Microtek
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[*] posted on 15-8-2018 at 22:02


I agree that SADS is a nice entry-level primary. I just think that, if you are serious about this hobby, then you would be well advised to put a great deal of effort into the primary. It does tend to be the weak link in the explosives train from a safety standpoint after all.
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underground
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[*] posted on 16-8-2018 at 00:12


In my opinion an EBW device instead of a primary would reduce any risk of accidentally Det.
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MineMan
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[*] posted on 16-8-2018 at 14:39


Lets keep things simple... whats wrong with 1-2grams of FP? for AN mixtures of course. For the picric acid or other secondary of small quantity SADS is perfect... and surprisingly insensitive when made correctly! Make it in a hot solution 65C with 10 percent nitric acid. Make sure your acetylene generator also is using water of the same temperature.

I have been impressed with aminoguanidine perchlorates. Not as insensitive as SADS... but close, and even easier to prepare... and so brisant you probably only nee 10-15mg!

dont make TAPT, just dont! And trust me flash powder is the most underrated primary :) some formulations are even completely insensitive to flame and static... a fuse cannot even ignite them without the help of aluminum doped black powder.
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[*] posted on 17-8-2018 at 06:26


Aminoguanidine perchlorate as a primary ? Never heared that before
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joseph6355
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[*] posted on 17-8-2018 at 20:46


Quote: Originally posted by nitro-genes  
@VSEPR_VOID
Pressing the primary separate from the basecharge is what I used to do and further reduces risk of premature detonation.

[Edited on 10-8-2018 by nitro-genes]

How do you press your primary before pressing the base charge? Shouldn't the base charge be at the bottom of the detonator?




Oh, hello! :)

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Tsjerk
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[*] posted on 18-8-2018 at 08:57


Or use a primary that doesn't need pressing.
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Rocinante
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[*] posted on 19-8-2018 at 12:10


No primary requires pressing (in the amateur setting), so don't press. Loose dextrinated (or other polymer coated) lead azide and SA.DS don't require any pressing, 50 - 100 mg of loose powder directly on top of PETN/ETN will work very well (or ~ 250 - 300 mg in smaller inner tube). There's even a phenomena called "dead pressing" in which a machine pressed primary explosive (like mercury fulminate) loses its initiation ability. As for TATP, it's maximum initiating/DDT efficiency is at around 0.5 g/cm^3 which is slightly above its bulk density (0.35) and can be done via a very mild touch with a cotton wool wrapped wooden stick.

The primary explosive shouldn't be loose (inside your cap) so an extremely small amount of pressing is still required (cotton wool plug at the upper end of your blasting cap.. for example). This keeps your primary from generating friction and static forces when rotating the blasting cap in your hand.
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FeedMe94
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[*] posted on 29-1-2019 at 00:08


Quote: Originally posted by Rocinante  
No primary requires pressing (in the amateur setting), so don't press. Loose dextrinated (or other polymer coated) lead azide and SA.DS don't require any pressing, 50 - 100 mg of loose powder directly on top of PETN/ETN will work very well (or ~ 250 - 300 mg in smaller inner tube). There's even a phenomena called "dead pressing" in which a machine pressed primary explosive (like mercury fulminate) loses its initiation ability. As for TATP, it's maximum initiating/DDT efficiency is at around 0.5 g/cm^3 which is slightly above its bulk density (0.35) and can be done via a very mild touch with a cotton wool wrapped wooden stick.

The primary explosive shouldn't be loose (inside your cap) so an extremely small amount of pressing is still required (cotton wool plug at the upper end of your blasting cap.. for example). This keeps your primary from generating friction and static forces when rotating the blasting cap in your hand.


I just synthesized SADS and i will use it in my detonators. Some with ETN and some with PETN. I would like to ask you how do you dextrinate SADS?
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Herr Haber
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[*] posted on 29-1-2019 at 07:35


Quote: Originally posted by Rocinante  
I'd leave this seriously OT discussion and your ego-fight that I started by pointing out the suggestion of lead azide may be dangerous.



On one side of this ego-fight we have:
- Rocinante and a bunch of cools and cooks whose only accomplishments on this forum is to get threads locked.
And on the other side:
- Me, I, Myself and my Bloated Ego. Along with us are dozens and dozens of real life chemists, a few dozen on this forum alone telling you that TATP is a bad idea, not chemically stable etc.

But you're gone so hopefully this will be read by the next "You" that inevitably will come.
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TGT
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[*] posted on 1-2-2019 at 20:56


I have Picric Acid that was not nitrated to the trinitrate but the dinitrate. The crystal formation is much different, it appears as globuals in the bottom of the beaker and are actually quite pretty and unique. Much different than the trinitrate. I don't know what to even do with the dinitrate? May be I should read the whole thread lol. I wonder what the process to nitrate it again to the tri would be?

TGT
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XeonTheMGPony
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[*] posted on 2-2-2019 at 07:53


Styphnic acid is another good one to make.

I do not reinvent the wheel, well over a 100 years of knowledge has produced a bullet proof reliable design of the simple compound cap

Base charge is 1gram pressed ETN, on top of this is a paper cylinder loaded with 100mg to 150milligrams of HMTD that has been pressed, that is then pressed into the cap, then it is dusted with some lose HMTD, then capped with e-match or fuse wrapped in some paper doped with graphite. The paper cylinder shields the primary from any metal contact and serves to offer some additional confinement. All so, when pressing the most sensitive primary offer s some level of safety as in the event of detonation you end up with confetie, which at close proximity can still do damage but penetration is greater limited then with any other material

Instead of the HMTD a larger portion of fulminated Mercury can be used with some Potassium chlorate.

Properly produced Azide is the superior way to go, an effort to which I am engaging.

In EM's you only screw up once, if lucky you only lose body parts, so take your Fing time people to research study and learn. And never listen to any one so ignorant as to claim TATP is safe! HMTD isn't even that safe but in all my testings it handles well but I would never recommend it to any one! It is a risk I personally accept given my experience in the field, I can mitigate the dangers.

Stay away from peroxides kids! it aint worth it as a newb.

[Edited on 2-2-2019 by XeonTheMGPony]
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Tsjerk
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[*] posted on 2-2-2019 at 07:59


"a larger portion of fulminated Mercury"

"HMTD"

"it is dusted with some lose HMTD"

Are you serious? These advises are going to blow of some fingers.

Edit: "potassium chlorate"... really?

[Edited on 2-2-2019 by Tsjerk]
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XeonTheMGPony
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[*] posted on 2-2-2019 at 11:25


Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
"a larger portion of fulminated Mercury"

"HMTD"

"it is dusted with some lose HMTD"

Are you serious? These advises are going to blow of some fingers.

Edit: "potassium chlorate"... really?

[Edited on 2-2-2019 by Tsjerk]


you must not bothered to study your old fashioned detonators, try reading whole thing.

Oh and do pray tell where I am advising any thing? I made a statement, if you are going to play with energetics it is up to YOU to learn what you are doing. Especially befor making snarky sarcastic replies.

[Edited on 2-2-2019 by XeonTheMGPony]

[Edited on 2-2-2019 by XeonTheMGPony]

Attachment: Efficiency of detonators.pdf (759kB)
This file has been downloaded 81 times

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Herr Haber
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[*] posted on 3-2-2019 at 04:53


MF + KClO3 was very common for detonators with no base charge. About 1/1.2 gram mercury in each (WW1 era) detonators. And another gram in case of a second fuse...
Instead you can use a bit less hmtd than MF to kick your base charge as Xeon suggests.
I wholly agree peroxides are not recommended though.

A good idea though is instead of pressing the base charge is pressing lightly then melting with boiling watter for maximum density.
This can be done safely as you dont need to be there for the melting, there's no pouring and you can come back later when the water is cooler.
I should find the remnants of a couple of tests made years ago. They were the exact opposite of what common sense would expect and fully in line with more modern studies on ETN (cast vs pressed)
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XeonTheMGPony
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[*] posted on 3-2-2019 at 07:22


Interesting to note the chlorate was even used with Lead azide, but that fell way side to a Styphnate 20% to Azide 80% mix.

There is a crap load of research on compound dets and I have amassed a good library on studies on them.

People seem to forget, part of DIY is learning what you are doing. HE is useless with out a safe means of ignition, I'd have thought people would have considered spending some serious time researching initiators and their function and construction.

But this is what the board is for, so I shall re iterate my warning for certain people: It is wise to learn things befor making snarky responses!
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[*] posted on 6-2-2019 at 02:20


I think you'd better convert TNP to ammonia picrate. It is insensitive, neutral and can be mixed with AN. The other way- two gr of pressed TNP and 0.5-1 gt or lead picrate above. This is how you can make a blasting cup. No other primaries.



Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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[*] posted on 12-2-2019 at 07:34


I have always been of the opinion that the words "pressing" and "primaries" should never be uttered in the same sentence (something I just did). With that in mind, may I suggest the following method. The base charge of choice is pressed or melt cast into the sealed end of an aluminum, thick cardboard or phenolic tube (not copper or brass). If you find yourself having to use brass ammo casings, go buy a small bottle of "liquid tin" or other brand of immersion tin plating solution. It is used to tin plate copper circuit boards and is available OTC. Dip the brass or copper into the solution for a minute or so to plate the metal with a layer of pure tin, then rinse and dry. This will prevent the formation of sensitive copper azide or picrate from contact between the copper tube and your primary.
Next, mix your primary of choice with a little dextrin and water to form a thick slurry. I prefer Roscoe Bodine's clathrate, but any primary will work. Get yourself a plastic blister pack of pills from the pharmacy. The type of pill is of no concern, you want the blister pack itself. Just make sure that the diameter of the blisters is slightly less than the inside diameter of your casing. Fill each of the plastic blisters carefully with just enough of the well stirred dextrin/primary mixture to form a small positive meniscus. After drying for 24 hours, turn the blister sheet over and carefully flex it to pop out the contents. You should now have perfectly formed primary "tablets". I recommend that you dip them into a nitrocellulose/acetone solution to form a protective skin on them. This further shields the primary from contact with the casing and boosts their performance somewhat. It also shields them from friction. You can then use tweezers to drop one or more of these atop your base charge. A pinch of BP or other first fire compound followed by an electric match, a soft plug, then crimp or glue shut. Voila! No missing digits.


[Edited on 12-2-2019 by Yamato71]
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Herr Haber
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[*] posted on 13-2-2019 at 04:51


I thought of something similar as you suggest.
The idea of pushing against the blister to eject the primary is not good for my nerves though.
I thought of using plastic drinking straws of a smaller diameter than the casing, cutting the desired length (= to the weight you want) and then filling.
You could then just drop the whole thing in your casing when its dry and close as usual.
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[*] posted on 16-2-2019 at 13:19


Ditch it and make CHP. LL has really provided us with a safe route. Detonators are no longer as feared. Yes. You have to press it, but CHP is not a primary. If you really wanted to you could just loosely put 3grams in a tube. The only problem with the DDT dets is you need a strong metal casing, which means shrapnel if things do go wrong.

Nickel Aminoguanidine Perchlorate, 100mg pressed in a thin 2-3mm aluminum tube. Put it in a vice to press. Faceshied and you should really be good. FYI NIAgPCl is the most insensitive primary I know of... on the order or SADS... as a bonus it’s so powerful 3mg is only needed for PETN. I really hate posting about it on this forum because it think makes everything so easy, and I am a believer one should put their time in this field. I wish this board could only be viewed by members.

But yes the above primary should be able to detonate ANYTHING with 100mg, no base charge of PETN needed. Again. If you get the crystal sizing right it’s just unfair how good of a primary it is (reduced friction and impact). Shock by adding the beaker to ethonal and dry ice or salt water and ice. Use a beaker with as much surface area as possible. Then grind the crystals with a wooden dowel on Al foil in ethonal. A little at a time. Trust me. You never want to go back to anything else.
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