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clearly_not_atara
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P2O5 alone was tried and failed extensively. Using calcium chloride as a cofactor is new, though.
[Edited on 04-20-1969 by clearly_not_atara]
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ManyInterests
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The word cofactor is new to me. I looked up what it means and I think I got the concept (organic chemistry isn't my focus). But to make it clear, do
you think the simple use of anhydrous calcium chloride and glacial acetic acid is sufficient to produce acetic anhydride? As well as possible
anhydrous sodium acetate?
Because if that is the case, I can probably make it quite easily without the need for difficult to obtain and/or very toxic chemicals.
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solo
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......this might help...solo
Reference Information
https://www.chegg.com/learn/topic/synthesis-of-acetic-anhydr...
It's better to die on your feet, than live on your knees....Emiliano Zapata.
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clearly_not_atara
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CaCl2 alone will not do it. See:
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/ja01852a002
[Edited on 04-20-1969 by clearly_not_atara]
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ManyInterests
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Yes I forgot, sulfuric acid is involved. But that is something I can easily obtain and have extensive experience with. It is no biggie. I will read
that pub and edit this response later.
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dettoo456
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Quote: Originally posted by BAV Chem  | | Quote: Originally posted by dicyanin |
GB299342 looks interesting as sodium metaphosphates are commercially available OTC. Sodium hexametaphosphate is a common food additive (E452i) and
water softener, and sodium trimetaphosphate is used in construction. Calgon according to some sources is sodium polymetaphosphate
Na2[Na4PO3]6 but polycarboxylate to others. Still I've seen 1lb bags of pure sodium hexametaphosphate
offered for under 10 euros as a water softener.
The patent from 1927 claims "the production of acetic anhydride from a mixture of sodium metaphosphate, anhydrous sodium acetate, and infusorial earth
moistened with glacial acetic acid, the reaction being effected at 150-180°C". Sounds too good to be true, but it could work, and yield wouldn't
really be an issue considering the requirements. I've heard mixed results from a similar low-yielding process, heating sodium pyrosulfate with sodium
acetate.
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That patent (see attachment) also claims that acetic anhydride can be produced by heating a mixture of glacial acetic acid and sodium
hexametaphosphate which doesn't work as far as I can tell.
Here's what I did:
127g of anhydrous sodium acetate and 170g of concentrated (~90%) phosphoric acid were thoroughly mixed and refluxed for some hours. I then distilled
off the concentrated acetic acid that was formed in the reaction and heated the remaining sodium dihydrogen phosphate to ~700°C in order to convert
it into some nice and glassy sodium hexametaphospate. This was broken up and ground to a more or less fine powder. Next all of the hexametaphosphate
and acetic acid was refluxed in a round bottom flask for another several hours. During this time the solid really caked to the bottom of the flask
(stirring would've helped). Finally I distilled everything to dryness but the vapour temperature never rose above 110°C. Everything I got was some
(nearly) glacial acetic acid with a freezing point of 10°C.
Glacial acetic acid should freeze at 16°C
and it's meant to boil at ~120°C.
Acetic anhydride boils at ~140°C.
That doesn't quite mean it can't work at higher temperatures but simply boiling sodium hexametaphosphate in acetic acid doesn't do it. I'm kinda
skeptical about the rest of that patent now.
[Edited on 9-4-2023 by BAV Chem] |
BAV, I’m not sure if the hexametaphosphate salts would do the trick as described in that patent but metaphosphoric acid would definitely dehydrate
GAA to Ac2O, along with most, if not all carboxylic acids to their anhydrides - I can’t find the patent at the moment but o know of at least two old
ones from like the early 1900s that mentioned MPA and GAA with some other acyl anhydrides.
I’m not sure if someone else in the thread mentioned it before, but MPA (metaphosphoric acic) is a fantastic dehydrating agent. Magpie demonstrated
its ability to generate oleum from 98-% H2SO4 even. You will need a quartz glass setup to run the rxns in though.
The SM thread ‘(HPO3)n Dehydrating agent (polyphosphoric or metaphosphoric acid)’ has some more info and Magpie’s write up is very detailed.
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Lionel Spanner
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I posted this method for acetic anhydride a little while back, while apparently not seeing this stickied thread. It's probably better placed here than
in its own thread.
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=15...
Industrial chemist rediscovering the practical pleasures of pure chemistry.
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tyro
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| Quote: Originally posted by dettoo456 | | Quote: Originally posted by BAV Chem | | Quote: Originally posted by dicyanin |
GB299342 looks interesting as sodium metaphosphates are commercially available OTC. Sodium hexametaphosphate is a common food additive (E452i) and
water softener, and sodium trimetaphosphate is used in construction. Calgon according to some sources is sodium polymetaphosphate
Na2[Na4PO3]6 but polycarboxylate to others. Still I've seen 1lb bags of pure sodium hexametaphosphate
offered for under 10 euros as a water softener.
The patent from 1927 claims "the production of acetic anhydride from a mixture of sodium metaphosphate, anhydrous sodium acetate, and infusorial earth
moistened with glacial acetic acid, the reaction being effected at 150-180°C". Sounds too good to be true, but it could work, and yield wouldn't
really be an issue considering the requirements. I've heard mixed results from a similar low-yielding process, heating sodium pyrosulfate with sodium
acetate.
|
That patent (see attachment) also claims that acetic anhydride can be produced by heating a mixture of glacial acetic acid and sodium
hexametaphosphate which doesn't work as far as I can tell.
Here's what I did:
127g of anhydrous sodium acetate and 170g of concentrated (~90%) phosphoric acid were thoroughly mixed and refluxed for some hours. I then distilled
off the concentrated acetic acid that was formed in the reaction and heated the remaining sodium dihydrogen phosphate to ~700°C in order to convert
it into some nice and glassy sodium hexametaphospate. This was broken up and ground to a more or less fine powder. Next all of the hexametaphosphate
and acetic acid was refluxed in a round bottom flask for another several hours. During this time the solid really caked to the bottom of the flask
(stirring would've helped). Finally I distilled everything to dryness but the vapour temperature never rose above 110°C. Everything I got was some
(nearly) glacial acetic acid with a freezing point of 10°C.
Glacial acetic acid should freeze at 16°C
and it's meant to boil at ~120°C.
Acetic anhydride boils at ~140°C.
That doesn't quite mean it can't work at higher temperatures but simply boiling sodium hexametaphosphate in acetic acid doesn't do it. I'm kinda
skeptical about the rest of that patent now.
[Edited on 9-4-2023 by BAV Chem] |
BAV, I’m not sure if the hexametaphosphate salts would do the trick as described in that patent but metaphosphoric acid would definitely dehydrate
GAA to Ac2O, along with most, if not all carboxylic acids to their anhydrides - I can’t find the patent at the moment but o know of at least two old
ones from like the early 1900s that mentioned MPA and GAA with some other acyl anhydrides.
I’m not sure if someone else in the thread mentioned it before, but MPA (metaphosphoric acic) is a fantastic dehydrating agent. Magpie demonstrated
its ability to generate oleum from 98-% H2SO4 even. You will need a quartz glass setup to run the rxns in though.
The SM thread ‘(HPO3)n Dehydrating agent (polyphosphoric or metaphosphoric acid)’ has some more info and Magpie’s write up is very detailed.
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When I read the patent, it seemed to indicate working under pressure to achieve higher temperatures when using the metaphosphate salts and only GAA
(middle of page 9). And. In examples 1 and 2, where sodium metaphosphate, sodium acetate, and GAA is used, GAA is "added to the mixture at such speed
that [it] appears just moist". Presumably gradual addition of the GAA, as stated in the latter case, would allow for higher reaction temperatures to
be achieved at ambient pressure.
It might be worth giving this another shot. I may make an attempt when I have some free time again.
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clearly_not_atara
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| Quote: | | BAV, I’m not sure if the hexametaphosphate salts would do the trick as described in that patent but metaphosphoric acid would definitely dehydrate
GAA to Ac2O, along with most, if not all carboxylic acids to their anhydrides - I can’t find the patent at the moment but o know of at least two old
ones from like the early 1900s that mentioned MPA and GAA with some other acyl anhydrides. |
Previous tests reported in this thread by multiple users show that metaphosphoric acid does not produce any isolable AA under any conditions.
Trimetaphosphoric acid H3P3O9 is a superacid at the first deprotonation (pKa < -10) which catalyzes uncontrolled aldol condensation of carboxylic
anhydrides. Whether it could be used for benzoic or pivalic anhydrides might be an interesting question; whether it works for AA has been answered
with a resounding "no" and also a "why don't people read the thread before posting this crap?".
[Edited on 04-20-1969 by clearly_not_atara]
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tyro
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clearly_not_atara - Apologies for resurrecting a previously disproven route. I've read through this thread casually a few times, but it's a
considerable amount of information to retain.
I feel like it would be useful to have a table or some such which lists discussed routes along with whatever conclusions have been drawn for massive
threads like this. Problem is, it would take a fair bit of effort, and I'm not sure how much it would help in the end. Adding a section in the wiki, a
Google spreadsheet... etc. Aside from the maintenance of such a document, the key would be to have a good way of raising visibility in all parts of
the thread in order to prevent cyclical comments.
I'd be interested in any thoughts you might have on this.
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