Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Fundamentals » Beginnings » Lithium batteries Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues   » Detritus   » Test Forum

Pages:  1
Author: Subject: Lithium batteries
Fitz
Harmless

Posts: 8
Registered: 13-10-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

Lithium batteries

recently I was trying to reclaim Li metal from a battery and I was left with a MnO2 and Li metal or so I thought. Upon trying to react my reclaimed metal with water there was no rxn, yet when I reacted what I thought was MnO2 there was fizzing and H2 gas. What did I reclaim, some sort of Li salt??? what is the metal???
YT2095
International Hazard

Posts: 1091
Registered: 31-5-2003
Location: Just left of Europe and down a bit.
Member Is Offline

Mood: within Nominal Parameters

what battery type was it for a start, Im fairly au fait with the anatomy of several different sorts.

and it the batt was exhausted, there would be little to no Li as the Metal in there anyway.
adding it water would have left you with the Hydroxide of Lithium.

\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
Fitz
Harmless

Posts: 8
Registered: 13-10-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

I is a Li battery not Li ion. I don't know I assumed the black dust was MnO2 and that shouldn't react with water to my knowledge.
YT2095
International Hazard

Posts: 1091
Registered: 31-5-2003
Location: Just left of Europe and down a bit.
Member Is Offline

Mood: within Nominal Parameters

erm dude Li IS Lithium, look at your PTOE

if Id have mean lithium Ion I would have said so (and no, you will certainly not get Li metal from a Li-Ion batt).

\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
Fitz
Harmless

Posts: 8
Registered: 13-10-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

well I know you can't get it from a Li ion battery, but I thought I had just a Li battery. Perhaps I was wrong.

[Edited on 14-10-2007 by Fitz]
12AX7
Post Harlot

Posts: 4803
Registered: 8-3-2005
Location: oscillating
Member Is Offline

Mood: informative

Hmm, lithium ion uses graphite powder doped with Co(3+) or something like that, innit? Don't know what that would do with water, but evidently it can store some energy!

Tim

Seven Transistor Labs LLC http://seventransistorlabs.com/
Electronic Design, from Concept to Layout.
Need engineering assistance? Drop me a message!
YT2095
International Hazard

Posts: 1091
Registered: 31-5-2003
Location: Just left of Europe and down a bit.
Member Is Offline

Mood: within Nominal Parameters

what batter was it?

for instance the CR series are Great for elemental Li, notably the CR123a being one of the best.

\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
Fitz
Harmless

Posts: 8
Registered: 13-10-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

AA, I think a photo would have been better.
Xenoid
International Hazard

Posts: 774
Registered: 14-6-2007
Location: Springs Junction, New Zealand
Member Is Offline

Mood: Comfortably Numb

 Quote: Originally posted by Fitz AA, I think a photo would have been better.

I don't know about a photo! A little accurate information might be more help!
In 4 posts you still haven't told us the battery manufacturer or designation code. Have you checked the manufacturer's website or any of the numerous web pages that describe Li battery operation. Was the battery new, partially discharged or dead. Was the gas evolved actually hydrogen, did you test it, how?

Regards, Xenoid
Fitz
Harmless

Posts: 8
Registered: 13-10-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

Sorry.
It was a partly discharged Energizer e^2 Lithium battery. Code L91
Apparentaly the gas was sulfer dioxide.
I didn't think of looking up a data sheet. I'll make sure to do that in the future, especially before asking another question.
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l91.pdf
it works with Lithium/ Iron disulfide
It's weird how the lithium doesn't react with water then.
chemkid
National Hazard

Posts: 269
Registered: 5-4-2007
Location: Suburban Hell
Member Is Offline

Mood: polarized

How much did the batteries cost? If they didn't cost like \$20 USD then they probably aren't any good.

When i did this is used little watch batteries as pictured here (instructions provided):

Chemkid

[Edited on 14-10-2007 by chemkid]

Xenoid
International Hazard

Posts: 774
Registered: 14-6-2007
Location: Springs Junction, New Zealand
Member Is Offline

Mood: Comfortably Numb

@ Fitz

I didn't mean to put you off asking questions, that's what this forum is for, after all!
It's just useful to know all the facts first, otherwise people are running around like headless chickens and barking up the wrong tree, to mix metaphors nicely!

Sulphur dioxide, what might be the reaction that produces this when water is added. Did you smell sulphur dioxide (the odour of burning sulphur).

Regards, Xenoid
Waffles
Hazard to Others

Posts: 196
Registered: 1-10-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

In my experience of ripping apart lithium batteries to scavenge the metal, the Li has in general been black and dirty and almost powdery, so I would guess that what you thought was your MnO2 was actually your partly-corroded lithium. I would say partly-oxidized if Li didn't react with both O2 and N2...as such, the Li is often pretty crappy even in a brand new fresh battery, and just blackish dirt in an older battery. Nonetheless, if you heat it, it will burn, and still react with literally almost anything (ripped the oxygens out of my asbestos plate, stone floor, and glass beaker!).

\"…\'tis man\'s perdition to be safe, when for the truth he ought to die.\"
Fitz
Harmless

Posts: 8
Registered: 13-10-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

 Quote: Originally posted by Xenoid @ Fitz I didn't mean to put you off asking questions, that's what this forum is for, after all! It's just useful to know all the facts first, otherwise people are running around like headless chickens and barking up the wrong tree, to mix metaphors nicely! Sulphur dioxide, what might be the reaction that produces this when water is added. Did you smell sulphur dioxide (the odour of burning sulphur). Regards, Xenoid
Yeah I didn't take any offense. I think it probably was SO2 that I smelled. I actually have another one of the same battery so I'll try it again armed with the knowledge that the black powder could have been oxidized Li. Overall I've discovered that reclaiming Lithium from a battery can get quite messy metaphorically and physically.
Xenoid
International Hazard

Posts: 774
Registered: 14-6-2007
Location: Springs Junction, New Zealand
Member Is Offline

Mood: Comfortably Numb

I found this information which refers to the Energizer type batteries;

The Lithium-Iron chemistry deserves a separate section because it is one of a handful of lithium metal systems that have a 1.5 volt output (others are lithium/lead bismuthate, lithium/bismuth trioxide, lithium/copper oxide, and lithium/copper sulfide). Recently consumer cells that use the Li/Fe have reached the market, including the Energizer. These have advantage of having the same voltage as alkaline batteries with much more energy storage capacity, so they are called "voltage compatible" lithiums. They are not rechargeable. They have about 2.5 times the capacity of an alkaline battery of the same size, but only under high current discharge conditions (digital cameras, flashlights, motor driven toys, etc.). For small currents they don't have any advantage. Another advantage is the low self-discharge rate–10 years storage is quoted by the manufacturer. The discharge reactions are:

FeS2 Version
2 FeS2 + 4 Li —> Fe + 2Li2S 1.6 Volts

FeS Version
FeS + 2Li —> Fe + Li2S 1.5 Volts

Both Iron sulfide and Iron disulfide are used, the FeS2 is used in the Energizer. Electrolytes are organic materials such as propylene carbonate, dioxolane and dimethoxyelthane.

The black material will presumably contain a mixture of iron disulphide (pyrites, fool's gold), iron, lithium and lithium sulphide in a partially discharged battery.

Regards, Xenoid
Fleaker
International Hazard

Posts: 1228
Registered: 19-6-2005
Member Is Offline

Mood: nucleophilic

Erm, Xenoid, wouldn't H2S be the hydrolysis product of iron disulfide reacting with water? FeS2 eh?

"Kid, you don't even know just what you don't know. "
--The Dark Lord Sauron
Xenoid
International Hazard

Posts: 774
Registered: 14-6-2007
Location: Springs Junction, New Zealand
Member Is Offline

Mood: Comfortably Numb

 Quote: Originally posted by Fleaker Erm, Xenoid, wouldn't H2S be the hydrolysis product of iron disulfide reacting with water? FeS2 eh?

I was trying to coax that out of Fitz, but he didn't bite (I was going to mention the smell of rotten eggs in my second post). I'm not sure where he got the information on the SO2! It would probably be produced if the battery contents were heated or burnt. If the battery was only partly discharged, and lamthewaffler's description of the contents are accurate it would still contain some lithium. In reality he (Fitz) probably obtained a mixture of hydrogen and H2S.

Regards, Xenoid

Antwain
National Hazard

Posts: 252
Registered: 21-7-2007
Location: Australia
Member Is Offline

Mood: Supersaturated

You really think so? If he made more than a few milligrams of H2S then his neighbors would have called the police. Its that bad.
Xenoid
International Hazard

Posts: 774
Registered: 14-6-2007
Location: Springs Junction, New Zealand
Member Is Offline

Mood: Comfortably Numb

 Quote: Originally posted by Antwain You really think so? If he made more than a few milligrams of H2S then his neighbors would have called the police. Its that bad.

What's bad, the smell of H2S or the state of home chemistry in Australia...

Regards, Xenoid
woelen

Posts: 6842
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline

Mood: interested

Some lithium batteries have thionyl chloride in them. This compound has a smell, very similar to SO2, albeit sharper, more pungent. With water vapor from air, it forms SO2 and HCl, so the smell certainly can be explained.

The art of wondering makes life worth living...
Want to wonder? Look at https://woelen.homescience.net
YT2095
International Hazard

Posts: 1091
Registered: 31-5-2003
Location: Just left of Europe and down a bit.
Member Is Offline

Mood: within Nominal Parameters

wow, happily Ive only ever enountered the ones with Diethyl ether in them

\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
12AX7
Post Harlot

Posts: 4803
Registered: 8-3-2005
Location: oscillating
Member Is Offline

Mood: informative

Er, carbonate? Diethyl ether isn't an ionic solvent.

Seven Transistor Labs LLC http://seventransistorlabs.com/
Electronic Design, from Concept to Layout.
Need engineering assistance? Drop me a message!
UnintentionalChaos
International Hazard

Posts: 1454
Registered: 9-12-2006
Location: Mars
Member Is Offline

Mood: Nucleophilic

Not to mention the lovely explosion hazard those batteries would present....

Department of Redundancy Department - Now with paperwork!

'In organic synthesis, we call decomposition products "crap", however this is not a IUPAC approved nomenclature.' -Nicodem
YT2095
International Hazard

Posts: 1091
Registered: 31-5-2003
Location: Just left of Europe and down a bit.
Member Is Offline

Mood: within Nominal Parameters

youre quite probably right, all I know is that opening a CR32 there is a real strong smell of it and its just as volatile/flammable.
the CR123as also have the same smell.
and whatever it is, it evaporates Very quickly and goes quite cold too.

as for the Explosion hazzards, well I have a can of ether here (Engine start) thats a good 3 to 4 years old, theres no reason to beleive that if the can maintains structural integrity that it wont last another 4 years if need be.
Im sure these guys know what they`re doing when they put these things together.

\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
UnintentionalChaos
International Hazard

Posts: 1454
Registered: 9-12-2006
Location: Mars
Member Is Offline

Mood: Nucleophilic

I am referring to what would happen if the battery was crushed, both rupturing the casing and causing a short circuit. The lithium ignites and causes a wonderful fireball with the ether.

The guys who made all those computer and phone batteries that were exploding/bursting into flame seemed to know what they were doing too...

Department of Redundancy Department - Now with paperwork!

'In organic synthesis, we call decomposition products "crap", however this is not a IUPAC approved nomenclature.' -Nicodem
Pages:  1

 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Fundamentals » Beginnings » Lithium batteries Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues   » Detritus   » Test Forum