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Author: Subject: Chloroacetone by Electrolysis
DDTea
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[*] posted on 14-9-2003 at 18:08
Chloroacetone by Electrolysis


Alright. I am very new to electrochemistry...new as in, tonight is the first time it has really interested me :P.

So, please be gentle with the technobabble for poor Samosa.

I have read that Chloroacetone was first prepared by Electrolysing a mixture of Acetone and Hydrochloric Acid. Now, I have heard of Electrolysing HCl and HF for organic substitutions, such as in Chloroacetic Acid.

But now what I want to know is, how quickly does this reaction take place- has anybody tried it? What power supply what I need? What kind of electrodes should I use? Are the yields very good?

I remember reading on this forum about someone who made Chloroacetone (i don't remember by what method), but I cannot remember which thread it was in...

EDIT: Can Sodium Chloride be used instead of HCl? If so, I imagine it would be gentler on the equipment used. Also, are there any measures that should be taken to avoid overchlorination of the Acetone? If there aren't, it's alright- the reactants are so cheap that I wouldn't care much :)

[Edited on 9-15-03 by Samosa]
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[*] posted on 14-9-2003 at 23:32


Well, firstly, the idea is to get chlorine, and with NaCl electrolysis you'll get theoreticaly. But, I'm not sure if it'll stay dissolved when you'll add the acetone, as it might precipitate out (same phenomena involved like in the CIA method for BP production)

I did made several times bromoacetone using pure bromine and pure acetone; it's very simple and effective.

I made NCl3 by electrolising a solution of ammonium chloride, and I used C electrodes and it went OK; since Cl is produced in the reaction aswell, I'd say to use carbon electrodes, as Pt is waaay too expensive.

The speed can be calculated very easy, but my guess is that you'll get a few grams/hour, with a 5 A source.
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[*] posted on 15-9-2003 at 02:36


Now for the newbie questions... What OTC item can I use as a Carbon Electrode?? And when you say 5 A, do you mean 5 Amp? If so, could you please give some examples of a battery that has a 5 amp current?

Electricity has never been something that I've understood :(
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[*] posted on 15-9-2003 at 14:10


Carbon rods can be found in some batteries, these would be to small however. Pencil lead could potentially be used, but would be very thin I suppose. I am quite sure carbon rods are sold for use in welding. I've seen them laying around my uncle's shop(who happens to be a welder).

The one item that really sticks out in my mind would be none other than golf clubs:D. Of course I mean graphite golf club shafts. Perhaps try a golf club store that custom fits clubs for some extra pieces. Buying them from home club production sites could get a bit pricy. I happen to have 10 shafts sitting my garage that I've been trying to make a chlorate cell out of. Its just in theory for now though.
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[*] posted on 15-9-2003 at 18:23


Hmm. Now that I think about it, Carbon Shafts are made for Archery, and they are quit a good size. The only problem is that they are rather costly :(
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[*] posted on 15-9-2003 at 20:50
carbon gouging rods


These are carbon rods used in arc welders for applying heat or (messily) cutting through metal. Go to a place that carries welding supplies. They have a thin copper sheath, but it's easily peeled off. Also, they will disintegrate after a period of use, like other carbon rods.
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[*] posted on 15-9-2003 at 23:19


Dear Samosa, it's very simple. Electricity is a flux of electrons, right ? Electrons which travels from (-) to (+). The (-) is the emiter of the electrons. That is, the (+) will create a deficit of electrons.

A means Ampers, right. In order to get such an intensity, you will need either a car battery or a transformer.

[Edited on 16-9-2003 by a_bab]
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[*] posted on 16-9-2003 at 00:29


Computer power supplies can deliver up to 10A on 12V IIRC. Perfect for electrolysis.



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[*] posted on 17-9-2003 at 15:12


Now I need help designing an Electrolysis Cell for this purpose. Here are some things to consider:

-Acetone is flammable.

-Hydrogen and Chlorine can react very violently, perhaps causing an explosion.

-an explosion next to flammable Acetone is dangerous.

-If I understand this properly, Hydrogen will be forming at the Cathode while the actual reaction between Chlorine and Acetone will take place at the Cathode. How should I separate the two parts?

-Most likely, I will be using a computer power supply... Could I use it connected to a wall outlet (AC), since I'm assuming it turns the AC current to DC? Or should I modify it so as to have DC power, as provided by a 12 V battery?

- What kind of wiring should I use? Does it matter? I'm trying to avoid overheating.
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[*] posted on 18-9-2003 at 01:13


I'd have the anode at the bottom of your cell, so that chlorine has to bubble through a lot of acetone, and hopefully will react, before it escapes, and the cathode at the top. I'd have a gauze or something similar over the top, to keep dust out but allow hydrogen to be vented away effectively.

Unless you're using a huge current, and/or don't have good ventilation of your cell, I wouldn't worry about chlorine and hydrogen reacting.

Use thick wiring, 3mm or something, and select a suitable resisitor to put in series with your cell so that you don't overheat your power supply. This may not be necessary depending on the resisitance of your cell (which can be varied by adjusting the spacing and sizes of the electrodes).

I would do a little test, and see how much, if any, chlorine bubbles to the top and escapes, and I would then select a suitable height for the cell so that no chlorine escapes.

Computer power supplies give out DC, so you'll be alright with one of them.
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[*] posted on 18-9-2003 at 10:41


I used to work at a golf course, and when a customer wanted a club custom built, around a 6 inch segment of the stock shaft would be cut off and discarded. You could put on a 'nice boy' outfit and give a variation of the science project line, they might save a few scraps for you. A source of the computer power supply can be a standard computer store. I have received many many computer PSU's (in the 20's) from computer stores after they gut problem computers. They save stuff for me instead of throwing it away. You also get a nifty fan in the PSU that is quite versitile.



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[*] posted on 21-9-2003 at 10:03
Platinum electrodes...


Actually, platinum wire is not too expensive. I bought about 10cm of it weighing 1g at a jeweler's shop for £11. They said it was 95% platinum but they weren't quite sure what the other 5% was. They said it was probably rhoduim. Anyway, it works fine for electrodes. You can put a huge current through it and it has shown no signs of corroding at all.
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[*] posted on 20-12-2003 at 10:12


Nick F:
The reaction of the acetone with the chlorine takes place directly at the electrode, The nascent Cl (NOT Cl2!) couples directly to the acetone, the so formed chloroacetone sinking to the bottom as it is much heavier than the acetone/HCl mixture.
If bubbles are visible you use much to much current.
Try 5V to 10V - chlorine bubbles = time to reduce the voltage!
But placing the anode below the cathode seems a good idea to me so no diaphragm is used. Placing the anode at the bottom of the cell is a bad idea as there the chlorinated compound will be after some time and you may get polychlorinated stuff this way.
So - in the middle?
Or use a diaphragm, claypot, plastics...

Samosa:
This is a "cold" reaction. No chlorine should ever be released - if so your current density/voltage whatever is much to high - reduce it!
Roomtemperatur or below - cool the cell in a water/icebath. PE is a perfect material for a cell of this kind.
You nevertheless will need:
A "multimeter" and RTFM.
To understand and to use the "Ohms law".


The finished product is best withdrawn directly at the bottom of the cell and stored in a wellclosed bottle.
Hey! Chilling/freezing the shit makes it much more conveniant to handle.

Anyways:
Happy crying! :P:P:P:P:P:P:D




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[*] posted on 20-12-2003 at 23:01
Platinum wire!


http://www.crscientific.com/platinumwire.html

P.S. please stop talking about carbon fibre products as a viable source of carbon for electrodes. Carbon fibre in products is used like glassfiber in fiberglass boats. The carbon fiber is embedded in epoxy (a resin hardened with hardener)

Okey-Dokey-Smokey?

I think embedding the electrodes in glass might be the trick...it obviously can be done...for a similar setup try looking at the "ketene generator" curently being auctioned on LabX.

[Edited on 21-12-2003 by Hermes_Trismegistus]




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[*] posted on 21-12-2003 at 13:37
hermes


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[*] posted on 19-1-2004 at 08:11


>Platinum electrodes...

>Actually, platinum wire is not too
>expensive. I bought about 10cm of it
>weighing 1g at a jeweler's shop for £11. >They said it was 95% platinum but they
> weren't quite sure what the other 5%
> was. They said it was probably rhoduim.
> Anyway, it works fine for electrodes. You
> can put a huge current through it and it
> has shown no signs of corroding at all.

I did the same thing, and the jeweller thought it was rhodium. But I politely
asked him to call the supplier and find out.
It showed to be palladium. I would hypothesize that "jewellery grade platitum"
is always alloyed with palladium. (Something
about the strength of the alloy or something, can't remember exactly what he said).




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[*] posted on 19-1-2004 at 14:09


What is chloroacetone used for?
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sad.gif posted on 19-1-2004 at 17:29
buhuuuuuu.....!!!!!


The last two posts actually kill me, shall I flame or shall I cry?

I cry.
Buhuuuuu...!!!

The one insists on using platinium when graphite is perfect usable, with or without diaphragm, doesnt matter as this influences only the ELECTROCHEMICAL yields aka product per Amp/h and not the quality of the product at all, say 20% instead of 90% ELECTROCHEMICAL yield what makes the reaction last a little longer and you waste about 30cents worth of electricity.....
And the second one.....
....Hey if you dont know it you wont need it. No problem.

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Highly recommended!

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[*] posted on 21-1-2004 at 12:17


Organikum, thank you for your in-depth answer!

2.2 Forum behavior
The anonymous and remote nature of the Internet makes rude and stupid behavior even easier and more common than it is in other social settings. Please resist the urge to devolve into a feces-hurling Internet Monkey just because nobody can see your face.
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[*] posted on 22-1-2004 at 06:47
no problem


ever heard of GOOGLE and ever seen the "search" field here on top?

I am in a hurry but I will gladly flame your lazy ass next time.




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[*] posted on 6-2-2004 at 17:02
lachrymatory


Chloroacetone is told to be a lachrymator and a teargas - this is more or less true.
Actually it will make your eyes watery quite fast but as a fact HCl (as gas) is far more nasty than chloroacetone.
No police in the world with some attitude will use such a weak compound against the own population - CS/CN are far superior.

I wanted to add this as I have seen horrible things on the devilish properties of chloroacetone posted so often which are to be called chemical myths.

I hate this as it renders serious warnings worthless.

Handling of chloroacetone: Cool it and add water as this covers the haloketone and almost nothing will escape - no crying. Keep DARK as it polymerizes with light really fast. Not UV or strong light, no, just a little light is enough. The water also stabilizes the chloroacetone - some chalk does the same. (stabilisation says it polymerizes not so rapidly under the influence of light)




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[*] posted on 9-2-2004 at 08:39


To clarify the "tear gas" issue... Chloroacetone was never a true Police/Anti-Riot tear gas, unless I'm mistaken. However, it saw use as a Chemical Warfare agent in WW1 because, as we know, it is a lachrymator. It's lachrymatory properties are similiar to Chloropicrin, if I recall correctly... I believe Chloropicrin had a slightly lower limit of insupportability though. In any case, as a potential expedient lachrymator, it certainly can be used-- but it is far from a "superior" chemical agent. It is also a poison, so prudency is always a good idea.

[Edited on 2-9-04 by Samosa]
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[*] posted on 13-2-2004 at 16:13


Quote:
Originally posted by Organikum
No police in the world with some attitude will use such a weak compound against the own population - CS/CN are far superior.


FYI, bromoacetone was proposed as a war gas.




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mad.gif posted on 13-2-2004 at 18:04
dumb & blind ?


This thread is about CHLOROacetone.
My post referred to CHLOROacetone.

wtf. do you talk about the properties of BROMOacetone here - without any reference given straight
OUT OF YOUR ASS?

And no thats NOT the same just because BROMINE and CHLORINE are both halogens.

have a nice day.
but do so somewhere else please.




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[*] posted on 22-4-2004 at 10:30


If I were to make this electrolyse, what ratios of Acetone/Water/HCl acid should I use. I thought that the reason for why you would use HCl instead of NaCl is that ionic-compounds like NaCl tend to have low solubility in Acetone/Water mix but the HCl would dissolve much easier, am I right?
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