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Author: Subject: Rooto vs Liquid Fire
macckone
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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 08:42
Rooto vs Liquid Fire


Rooto Professional Drain Opener is 60-100% sulfuric acid with no other listed ingredients.
Amazing Liquid Fire is sulphuric acid with rodine 31a.
Rodine 31A msds is attached.
Most of the ingredients boil off at high heat except:
Alkylphenol Ethoxylate which has a boiling point just below sulfuric acid (293-297) for the nonyl variety which is the most commonly available.

I suspect Rooto has similar crud in it.
But from the look of it we can clean these up simply by bringing it to boiling.

Has anyone analyzed the which one of these is best for a home chemist?

Attachment: 1816~v~msds_8256.pdf (35kB)
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MrHomeScientist
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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 09:35


I have never found Rooto where I am, but I do use Liquid Fire. Mine is red/orange, which I assumed was due to dissolved carbon. It might look bad but it works just fine as-is, at least for my purposes. I've heard that Rooto can be water clear or pitch black; probably depending on the source. Drain cleaner acid is basically industrial waste, after all. A study of the differences between the brands would be interesting to see.
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CobaltChloride
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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 11:06


In Europe they sell Cleamen 420 drain cleaner. The MSDS lists the only ingredient being 98% sulfuric acid. Its color varies from crystal clear to very, very light brown. The brown color is most probably from the bottle because I've noticed that the clear acid gradually turns very light brown when stored in its original HDPE bottle.

So far it has worked very well for making esters and HNO3 for me. The ester I made with it (ethyl acetate) didn't have any weird smell at the end (some people had weird smelling products when using drain acid as a catalyst).

I know this is sold in multiple European states, so you might just be able to find it in the USA, although chances of this being the case are slim because shipping would cost a lot and be dangerous.
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happyfooddance
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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 11:59


Thank you macckone, I had been searching for this msds for a while to no avail, I have a container of Kleenout brand H2SO4 which claims to be "highly inhibited" by this rodine stuff, but I couldn't find out what it was.

I think at least some of its components might decompose when heated in concentrated acid, because it is crystal clear from the jug, turned caramel to medium brown when heated in a beaker to boiling, and takes about 20-30 minutes of sustained boiling to completely clear. My acid before heating titrated @ about 91 percent IIRC (don't have my notes right here).

Or it could be that or a moth flew in the beaker when I wasn't looking as this was done outside (but decently covered).
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RogueRose
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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 12:01


I think you are mistaken on the Rooto. I just found some good SDS/MSDS and I requested the latest from the company (they should email it to me soon I hope).

Check out the SG and it looks like it is listed as 93.19%, I doubt there is other stuff in it either.

Attachment: Rooto - H2SO4 - 40153573_MSDS.pdf (1.6MB)
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Attachment: ROOTO Drain Opener-Sulfuric Acid MSDS.pdf (94kB)
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macckone
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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 12:18


Happyfooddance:
All of the components should either decompose or evaporate in hot oxygenated sulfuric acid.

RogueRose,

On the first data sheet it lists the composition as 60 - 100% sulfuric acid under section VI at the bottom of the page.

On the second one it lists the sulfuric acid as 92% of the mix but doesn't list what the other 8% is or is not. Nor does it list the strength of the sulfuric acid that was added.

The Rodine 31A is an inhibitor which also contains sulfuric acid.

Rooto likely contains an inhibitor as well but we don't know what or the quantity.
If it is 92% sulfuric acid with 8% Rodine 31A which is up to 30% acid itself then it could well be 93%.

And given the available data Rooto could range in composition, I don't know how much though. MSDS are usually much more liberal than the actual composition.
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RogueRose
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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 13:11


Quote: Originally posted by macckone  
Happyfooddance:
All of the components should either decompose or evaporate in hot oxygenated sulfuric acid.

RogueRose,

On the first data sheet it lists the composition as 60 - 100% sulfuric acid under section VI at the bottom of the page.

On the second one it lists the sulfuric acid as 92% of the mix but doesn't list what the other 8% is or is not. Nor does it list the strength of the sulfuric acid that was added.

The Rodine 31A is an inhibitor which also contains sulfuric acid.

Rooto likely contains an inhibitor as well but we don't know what or the quantity.
If it is 92% sulfuric acid with 8% Rodine 31A which is up to 30% acid itself then it could well be 93%.

And given the available data Rooto could range in composition, I don't know how much though. MSDS are usually much more liberal than the actual composition.


it may say 60-100 but look at the SG of 1.8354, which is the correct number for 93.19%. if it is 1.8345g/ml then we are looking at 93-94.5% H2SO4 from my calculations.

again, the seconf one, look at the specific gravity - 1.835 and lists 94%n which is right where I posted it in the paragraph above.

I'm pretty certain that it is pure H2SO4 (plus H2O).

I did contact the company and asked if there was anything other than H2SO4 and asked for the most up to date SDS, MSDS, etc for the product.

We will see when it comes in.

**EDIT - IT's HERE!!
93% H2SO4
7% water


Attachment: Rooto SDS from the manufacturer (2.8MB)
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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 13:35


Regardless of what the SDS says, Rooto 1084 definitely has pickling agents and possibly other substances in it. If you boil it off, it leaves a residue. If you put stainless steel into it, a sticky black coating forms.



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macckone
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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 20:15


It appears that there are multiple products with the same name but different product numbers. Here we are getting Rooto 1069.

Even the MSDS provided says there may be trace chemicals up to 1% which could include the inhibitors. Which for my purposes 93% with 1% impurities should be fine. Heat it up and allow water to evaporate with any impurities getting eaten by the hot acid and atmospheric oxygen.
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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 20:44


I distill mine if I'm using it for anything where I am really concerned about the purity of the sulfuric acid. For most purposes, that's not necessary.



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XeonTheMGPony
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[*] posted on 3-10-2018 at 03:03


I add some 35% H2O2, then reflux to max temp as it burns off any thing that will oxidize, then distill it separating out the fractions (2 in this case any thing below 3xx and every thing after 3xx)

Weak fraction gets labeled "General purpose sulfuric acid" the concentrated is just called Sulfuric acid.

Upon final distillation I often find clear cubic crystals in the bottom along with the last bits of H2SO4, this is not discarded, it is kept in a separate container labeled Sulfuric acid dist, dregs.

These dregs is what I used to make SO3 thanks to the max concentration of it and a good way to recycle what would other wise be lost product!

Honestly if you want good reliable results, distill distill and distill again for good measure, sure it is tedious and boring, but it does hone your skills at distilling and it gets easier with every run (Which ironically makes it even more boring!)

As a warning, sulfuric loves to bump, nothing I do seems to get rid of it, but it is manageable, which means you must be there through the whole run!
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macckone
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[*] posted on 3-10-2018 at 13:05


The denser the fluid the worse it bumps. Sulfuric at boiling is well over 1.8 in any decent concentration.
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