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chemoleo
Biochemicus Energeticus
Posts: 3005
Registered: 23-7-2003
Location: England Germany
Member Is Offline
Mood: crystalline
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So, what's the morale of the story?
I_am_a_fish, I just checked your website again, and indeed you have removed all the supplier information. Will you return this to the state it has
previously been? Considering all the arguments (see above), I think you should. There are innumerable websites that combine supplier lists for various
items, all of which could be used for legal or illegal purposes. It's up to the consumer/customer to decide for which purpose he or she would
like to use those lists for, not up to the compiler of the list (you!). Therefore I think the responsibility is *not* yours, else all websites (and
their corresponding compiled lists) regarding the sale of weapons (knifes, guns, peppersprays whatever) should be sued for providing easy access to
all the ill-meaning people (thus half of America should be sued for providing easy means to get hold of weapons). Welcome to an information-censoring
society, Dr. Teeth.
Apart from that, there is a proverb that goes 'Whats the point of reinventing the wheel' ? - meaning that, what's the point of
everyone interested in chemistry having to go through the same process of extensive searches, and extensive search failures, while collective
information could have saved all this time, which could have been used on something more constructive?? In my research job, rule number one is to find
out whether someone has worked on your project/idea before; if so, you expand on other's people work to be creative yourself. Else you get stuck
with repeating things done already, and you can flush your research career down the toilet...
Anyway, I think Marvin made a very good point there.
Amateur science wouldn't become ever more popular (although still, only a very minor fraction of people are interested) were it not for the
broader accessibility of information and equipment. Thus, by limiting information (as suggested by Dr.Teeth), amateur scientist will (and should?)
always form a small, self-preserving community (and this is exactly what he suggests, to preserve the interests of a small community interested in
illegal substances, so that their illegal goals can be continued in the future  )
which walks along the borderline of ‘The Law’. Now, is that what we want? IMHO, amateur science should be considered a regular hobby, and hence be
treated as such, where information is given out freely, and where it is up to the ‘hobby pursuer’ to decide what to do with this information.
Guiltless unless proven guilty! Play around as much as you want with chemicals, explosives, drugs etc as long as 1) you don’t harm anyone/anything
2) you don’t make money with it (like selling drugs you made) and 3) you don’t harm yourself! Of course, 3) is up to the hobbyist himself… just
like the odd weapons collector potentially harming himself–-which is considered an entirely legal hobby by the way!!
Thus, a compiled list of suppliers will hardly discredit the respective company because of its potential ‘abuses’, because there are too many
‘uses’ and ‘abuses’ with respect to the items being sold. Just like a knife/gun (guns, i.e. in the US ) supplier list could be considered
dangerous to some and very useful to others (like some nerdy knife/gun-collecting community/forum).
Anyway, I was posting this just to find out whether I_am_a_fish would return his site to its original state. I hope you do; repressing information,
and self-censorship is a very bad idea in a supposedly free and liberal society. I am speaking as a European here
PS: By the way, you can get NaClO3 >99% in France (as you were asking for info on other countries), in virtually any gardening store. Sold in bulk
(5kg plus), under the name ‘Chlorate de Soude’ in green metal containers.
PS 2: If you put your list up again, I_am_a_fish, are you going to add the www.kremer-pigmente.de site? See my last eml about this. I had a number of orders from there, and they do international shippings.
PS 3: regarding sodiumpersulphate- you can get it from www.conrad.de, which is Europe's biggest electronics supplier. 2kg for 19 euros. They have a number of other useful things 
[Edited on 16-10-2003 by chemoleo]
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I am a fish
undersea enforcer
Posts: 600
Registered: 16-1-2003
Location: Bath, United Kingdom
Member Is Offline
Mood: Ichthyoidal
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1. I'm on the verge of returning the list of suppliers to the current website. Unless anyone can make a persuasive counter-argument, I'll
do so in the next few days.
2. I've uploaded a larger demonstration of the proposed new website to...
http://www.hyperdeath.co.uk/chemicals/new.html
At present, all compounds of Titanium, Chromium, Vanadium, Manganese and Iron that I know suppliers of are listed.
Comments, additions and error reports would be appreciated.
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Marvin
National Hazard
Posts: 995
Registered: 13-10-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Looking very good. That page is something of a mammoth task. Still scraping suppliers together (me).
'Sodium persulphate' problem solved. Its a slang name and rather dissimilar to sodium perborate and sodium percarbonate which is what threw
me. The proper name is 'sodium peroxydisulphate' and if Id have been smart enough just to look at the formula on the page Id have seen
thats its not a neutral salt. Its essentially an anhydride between the sodium salt of caros acid and sodium hydrogen sulphate. Which is borderline
feasable why my brain was telling me it was half sodium hydrogen sulphate. Think sodium pyrosulphate with a peroxy bond.
I can get most of the chemicals I'm currently interested in using but I'm short of a reasonably priced UK source for pyridine. I want to do
a coupling reaction that has to be done in molten pyridine hydrochloride. No, bulk buying B vitamins is not an option I have one source I think will sell to me, but its pricey.
[Edited on 20-10-2003 by Marvin]
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I am a fish
undersea enforcer
Posts: 600
Registered: 16-1-2003
Location: Bath, United Kingdom
Member Is Offline
Mood: Ichthyoidal
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It's back.
I've returned the supplier information to the website.
(I've also corrected the various mistakes that Marvin pointed out plus added some new suppliers)
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Dr Teeth
Harmless
Posts: 7
Registered: 4-10-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Chemoleo:
| Quote: | | Apart from that, there is a proverb that goes 'Whats the point of reinventing the wheel' ? - meaning that, what's the point of everyone
interested in chemistry having to go through the same process of extensive searches, and extensive search failures, while collective information could
have saved all this time, which could have been used on something more constructive?? |
And there goes the clarion call of the lazyass. "..Can somebody else do it for meeee..it's diiiiffffficullllt....bwaaaaa.....bwaaaaa. I
don't care if it potentially threatens sources as long as anything bad happens after I've got everything I need.."
Using that logic, what's the point in ever doing any experiment that has already been done before? It's been done before so we know it
works...doing it again is a waste of time...right?
| Quote: | | Play around as much as you want with chemicals, explosives, drugs etc as long as 1) you don’t harm anyone/anything 2) you don’t make money
with it (like selling drugs you made) and 3) you don’t harm yourself! Of course, 3) is up to the hobbyist himself… just like the odd
weapons collector potentially harming himself–-which is considered an entirely legal hobby by the way!! |
LOL!! Unfortunately the legislators and most of society don't agree with you.
| Quote: | | repressing information, and self-censorship is a very bad idea in a supposedly free and liberal society. I am speaking as a European here
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and
| Quote: | | Therefore I think the responsibility is *not* yours, else all websites (and their corresponding compiled lists) regarding the sale of weapons (knifes,
guns, peppersprays whatever) should be sued for providing easy access to all the ill-meaning people |
I'm glad you raised that particular point. Being a European you will probably know already that in one particular part of the continent (UK)
handguns, automatic and semi-automatic weapons, combat knives and CS and pepperspray are ALL banned! And guns in general are fairly heavily regulated
throughout Europe.
Once again I make the point, the legislators know what's best for you.....it's their job.
Fish:
Do you know what 'referrer' means in the context of browser software? It's part of the information your browser gives to a website when
you connect to it. Specifically it's the URL of the last page you viewed or linked from, and is given by your browser for the purposes of traffic
analysis.
So the sites you have given links to will be aware of all traffic coming from your site (or from this site for links given here). IOW they will get to
know that people interested in 'officially bad stuff', to use Polverones phrase, are visiting and perhaps buying from them. You've
called it hyperdeath fer chrissakes making it attention grabbing to any webmaster who pays even the slightest attention to their traffic reports.
Some may not give a shit...but others might and may decide to cover their asses by making it harder for individuals to buy their stuff (eg traceable
payments only and extended logging of customer details.)
....but hey I'm just a newbie,what do I know?
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I am a fish
undersea enforcer
Posts: 600
Registered: 16-1-2003
Location: Bath, United Kingdom
Member Is Offline
Mood: Ichthyoidal
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dr Teeth
Fish:
Do you know what 'referrer' means in the context of browser software? It's part of the information your browser gives to a website when
you connect to it. Specifically it's the URL of the last page you viewed or linked from, and is given by your browser for the purposes of traffic
analysis.
So the sites you have given links to will be aware of all traffic coming from your site (or from this site for links given here). IOW they will get to
know that people interested in 'officially bad stuff', to use Polverones phrase, are visiting and perhaps buying from them. You've
called it hyperdeath fer chrissakes making it attention grabbing to any webmaster who pays even the slightest attention to their traffic reports.
Some may not give a shit...but others might and may decide to cover their asses by making it harder for individuals to buy their stuff (eg traceable
payments only and extended logging of customer details.)
....but hey I'm just a newbie,what do I know?
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No part of the site advocates anything illegal. Even if a company did assiduously follow up every referal in its server logs, there's no
fundamental reason why it should object. After all, I'm putting business their way.
If a company did complain, I wouldn't hesitate to remove them from the list. However, I have yet to have a single complaint.
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