Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Non-chemistry » Legal and Societal Issues » Police Questions Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues

 Poll: Police Questions Yes 8 (61.54%) No 5 (38.46%)

Pages:  1  2
Author: Subject: Police Questions
Rosco Bodine
Banned

Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: analytical

With regards to an attack by an unknown armed perpetrator upon a mailbox , well that is a federal matter where postal inspectors get involved . They
are sort of like US Marshals or secret service , their
jurisdiction is everywhere , and they are good at catching the perpetrator of any crime involving mail . Neither rain nor snow nor dark of night will stay them from their appointed rounds busting lowlife scumbags

With regards to urbs four offender categories ,
there absolutely are some offenders that are four for four
on that score , and that's where internal affairs has to earn their pay
Edward Elric
Hazard to Self

Posts: 86
Registered: 2-5-2005
Location: : Cloud 9
Member Is Offline

Mood: seraphic

 Quote: Originally posted by chemrox Never answer questions from policemen unless they are, "where is the nearest donut shop?" or "when did you shoot your wife?"

Wrong, the second one could be considered a paradoxical question by the innocent. In any regard, take a Confucianist approach with a bit of sophistry.

☣ - Full Metal Alchemist - ☣
MagicJigPipe
International Hazard

Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Suspicious

Oh no! A bullet lodged in a mailbox! Call the national guard! Upgrade to DEFCON 1! Evacuate all major cities! Stock up on canned food! THERE IS A BULLET LODGED IN A MAILBOX! I think this is an overreaction. Probably just some drunken redneck shooting off his .38 special at signs/mailboxes out of his Tahoe's window.

"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
12AX7
Post Harlot

Posts: 4803
Registered: 8-3-2005
Location: oscillating
Member Is Offline

Mood: informative

Nah, we're not in redneck territory. There is some drug activity here, though I wouldn't expect to see it in this area. Usually, drug / gang violence occurs in the north and west areas (why is it always the "west sayeede"?).

Tim

Seven Transistor Labs LLC http://seventransistorlabs.com/
Electronic Design, from Concept to Layout.
Need engineering assistance? Drop me a message!
MagicJigPipe
International Hazard

Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Suspicious

HAHAHAHA!! Oh well, I wouldn't be concerned about it if I were you anyway. In fact, I would be more weary of the police. At least the "gangbangers" usually go after their own people. That's just me though. I'm always distrustful of the police because of my past experiences.

"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
The_Davster
A pnictogen

Posts: 2861
Registered: 18-11-2003
Member Is Offline

Mood: .

You are fine as long as your raking picked up the empty brass
In all seriousness, you are fine.

[Edited on 7-12-2007 by The_Davster]
JohnWW
International Hazard

Posts: 2849
Registered: 27-7-2004
Location: New Zealand
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

Pig Questions

I agree with Markgollum.

Far too many poor inmates end up in jail as the result of being framed by corrupt Pigs desperate to obtain promotion (or else by Pigs who solicited bribes which they could not pay), either for alleged offenses they did not commit, or for much more serious offenses than what they really did commit. And this is also as the result, especially in the U$A, of harsher and harsher sentences being passed into law by corrupt politicians for cheap vote-catching purposes (which effectively makes many inmates "political prisoners"), even for simple possession of drugs for personal use (which is the largest category of jail sentences in the U$A), and because (especially in the U$A) they have been bribed by the jail construction firms, security firms, and electronics and clothing manufacturers. The latter people stand to gain from there being large jail populations, either from building and running the jails and ancilliary services such as prisoner transport, or from exploitation of cheap prison labor (which also serves to undercut union-negotiated fair wages on the outside). And on top of that, there are the "extraordinary rendition" detainees and accused "terrorism" detainees, in Guantánamo Bay, secret CIA jails in foreign countries, and military lockups within the U$A, who are being held without charge or trial for purely political reasons, just on Bu$h's say-so, being denied either a fair trial as required by the U$ Constitution, or else prisoner-of-war status and the special internationally-supervised rights (e.g. Red Cross visits and assistance) that go with that.

If Urbs is really an U$attorney who has been practising criminal law for some 20 years, he must surely know by now what I am talking about. The whole legislative, law-enforcement, prosecution, Court/judicial, and prison system, in nearly all countries but by far the most so in the U$A (which has by far the highest per capita rate of imprisonment in the world, in spite of employing 70% of the world's lawyers to serve only 5% of the world's population), is ROTTEN TO THE CORE WITH CORRUPTION AND BRIBERY! This, plus the astronomical and accelerating gap between rich and poor (also entrenched by the system), is why I predict REVOLUTION, led by armed militia and a horde of destitute homeless, and supported by mutinous local cops and military personnel who will turn on their commanders, will break out in the U$A within 5 years, and probably sooner rather than later, no matter who is in power. [Edited on 13-12-07 by JohnWW] 12AX7 Post Harlot Posts: 4803 Registered: 8-3-2005 Location: oscillating Member Is Offline Mood: informative John, You're about 40 years behind the times. We called those times the 70's. Tim Seven Transistor Labs LLC http://seventransistorlabs.com/ Electronic Design, from Concept to Layout. Need engineering assistance? Drop me a message! JohnWW International Hazard Posts: 2849 Registered: 27-7-2004 Location: New Zealand Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood 12AX7, - On what planet have YOU been for the last 40 years, then? I remember the '70s, alright, but I wonder if you were even around then. Sauron International Hazard Posts: 5351 Registered: 22-12-2006 Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor Member Is Offline Mood: metastable I would have dated your attitudes from the 60s, John, not the 70s. More of an SDS, Abbie Hoffmann, Chicago 7, Angela Davis sort of riff. Burn, whitey, burn!, Down with the Pigs! That's you. By the way there are at least two former law enforcement officers on this forum, and while I can only speak for one of them, I am quite sure that both are less than thrilled about your concistent use of "pig" in this context. You don't like cops, I could give a damn. But kindly keep your expletives to yourself. Enough with the farcical anachronistic far left dialectical assault on the United States. You are a kiwi and know NOTHING of the United States. What threadbare left wing rag do you get your opinions out of? The Bolshies or the Troskyites? Wake up and smell the borscht, tovarich. Communism is DEAD. And if you want a serious exemplar or real corruption, go have a look at the former Soviet Union. Remember "We will bury you"? Well, we buried THEM. [Edited on 8-12-2007 by Sauron] Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc. urbs Harmless Posts: 12 Registered: 16-5-2006 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood Hmmm, I generally have a great deal of respect for those who are Kiwis, and, and always considered it rather enlightened country, albeit with it's own brand of rebelliousness and self reliance. I may have to re-think that. Indeed, I am what I stated, and am in the middle of the USA. I know that there are many things done by both Federal and State officials which make the news and are less than exemplary, but in my own two decades, I have had the good fortune to become acquainted with quite a number of law enforcement, lawyers, judges, and others who are doing a pretty thankless job every day and are being spit upon by narrow minded shit who haven't done an honest day's work in their entire miserable existence. I do not intend to flame or point fingers, but to cast such a broad net that you catch people who try to do what is right and honest; who attempt to make a positive difference in the small area of the planet that they inhabit, and clothe them them in the guise of "pig" or "corrupt" does not indicate any particular insight into who the individuals are. Frankly, feel that people are filthy, rotten and mean to the core; A person can be delightful, articulate, insightful, and generous; ...unless you are a kiwi. [Edited on 8-12-2007 by urbs] Sauron International Hazard Posts: 5351 Registered: 22-12-2006 Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor Member Is Offline Mood: metastable Nothing wrong with kiwis, I know many of them JohnWW I am happy to say is rather atypical in his vitriolic denunciation of the US. The only New Zealand former police officer I know personally is a bar owner in Cambodia who is now in prison there for paedophilia. Those charges are probably false. On the other hand he was tossed off the Willington PD where he was an auto-theft detective. Why? He was running an auto-theft ring at the same time. His name is Graham Cleghorn. In case anyone wants to check out this anecdote. I do not extrapolate Graham's character or behavior to all New Zealand police officers or indeed kiwis in general. One rotten apple does not require setting the torch to a whole orchard. Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc. Rosco Bodine Banned Posts: 6370 Registered: 29-9-2004 Member Is Offline Mood: analytical  Quote: Originally posted by Sauron I would have dated your attitudes from the 60s, John, not the 70s. [Edited on 8-12-2007 by Sauron] Me too , the sixties was a time when a whole lot of people got wise to a whole lot of things , started figuring things out It was enlightenment that came with tear gas and split heads and dead bodies on college campuses , a state that declared it was playing hardball to a generation who said great , that's our favorite game... so bring it on ! But then there's no need to get hysterical about the realization that probably all government that lasts for any length of time , starts devolving into a sort of organized crime all its very own . What happened to the silver certificates that used to be a dollar in the years since then and now , when one of those makes fifteen of the dollars we have now ? Did wages go up to cover the government counterfeiting ? Or did it just come out of the working mans ass? And second only to the military industrial complex , is the "justice system" which seems curiously preoccupied with throwing more American citizens in jail with every new law it can pass and enforce , while at the same time curiously failing to enforce the already decades old laws which has led to a *resident population* of 13 million illegal aliens , who will gladly take the jobs vacated by citizens thrown into jail . Most of the citizens are in jail on drug charges and where do most of the drugs come from , across the same unsecured border as the illegals , but who gets locked up for it ? Isn't there something way way wrong with that picture ? As for lawyers and judges having thankless jobs , or law enforcement officers either , well their paychecks certainly cover that thank you just fine especially given the job they do . Every time I hear "press 1 for English" or see these illegals 10 at a time riding in one van or pickup travelling our roads like tourists , while chain gangs of citizens work along the same roadsides , it pisses me off in a way no words can adequately describe , while looking forward to the day when I will gladly speak another language that needs no words for being past words with what I have to say. DerAlte International Hazard Posts: 779 Registered: 14-5-2007 Location: Erehwon Member Is Offline Mood: Disgusted Sorry I can’t resist adding my 1.7 cents worth (taking into account dollar devaluation which costs my income dearly, but that’s another rant!). First, on topic, 12AX7 said:  Quote: That 66% of voters have chosen "yes" implies to me that this forum contains a number of paranoid (or if "they ARE out to get me", merely cautious) members. Paranoia is rife, 12AX7. Youbetcha! And yes, you were absolutely right, and it is refreshing to realize that you are, considering your age. The media hype and other PC crapola has not affected your judgment. Urbs said:  Quote: (1)good normal people that do something stupid. 2. Stupid people that act in accordance with their nature. 3. people who by virtue of drug addiction or another disability, do something out of step with the rest of society. 4. sick bastards who are truly evil and see the rest of us as their playthings Absolutely! I do not too often agree with lawyers, but here’s one who can see the wood for the trees. For sheer paranoia and irrational hatred of the US and all who sail in her, plus oozing PC and liberal crapola rarely seen on this forum, try JohnWW:  Quote: Far too many poor inmates end up in jail as the result of being framed by corrupt Pigs desperate to obtain promotion (or else by Pigs who solicited bribes which they could not pay), either for alleged offenses they did not commit, or for much more serious offenses than what they really did commit. And this is also as the result, especially in the U$A, plus another large load of crapola

Ever been in the USA, JohnWW? If so, were you busted for something? Smoked a joint, did you? Sniffed some coke in an unsafe location? Or are you just basing your obvious hatred on envy (a common fault among foreigners) or some misguided actions by the US such as unnecessary (I’d agree) foreign wars? Well, I wasn’t born here, I opted for this land and it has treated me well. I certainly don’t agree with all policies our governments have put in place since I first came here some 43 years ago, but I can live with it.

Isolated as you must be in Kiwiland, I wish you well in your socialist paradise. What I was escaping (I thought) those 43 years ago was galloping, rampant socialism (including the watered down version offered by the Conservatives). In the main, I achieved that.

To JohnWW’s rant, we got the following replies:

From 12AX7:

 Quote: John,You're about 40 years behind the times. We called those times the 70's

But Sauron is right:

 Quote: I would have dated your attitudes from the 60s, John, not the 70s

…but good try, 12AX7. You rise in my estimation daily!

I was in San Francisco in the 60’s. The last of the hippies were still there. A slightly deluded bunch, putting it mildly. But in general fairly innocuous – they really did believe in make love not war – through an LSD haze, of course. Since LSD is not addictive, if they were not tempted to try the opiates, narcotics, etc. and did not suffer psychological damage, they broke away and became useful citizens.

The real drug problem to society is not addiction per se, but the resultant organized crime and the not always petty crime indulged in by those addicts. The street price follows the laws of economics, i.e. whatever the traffic will bear. By making the drugs illegal, the government encourages this. Remember prohibition? Even I’m too young to be in that era but it spawned a thriving industry. And made the US the laughing stock of the civilized world… To say nothing of destroying the rising industry of excellent wine making in California, which took years to recoup.

Now Sauron really had me confused when he mentioned Mopery! It must be one of those English words that crossed the Atlantic and got lost back home (like 'honey' and a few others.) I had to look it up and I thought I was exceptional in the English language (I used Wiki, occasionally (88+%) right):

Mopery is a vague and obscure legal term, used in certain jurisdictions to mean "walking down the street with no clear destination or purpose". Like loitering and vagrancy laws, it is sometimes used by law enforcement to detain individuals seen as "unsavory", as the police believe they have prevented them from committing a clearer or more dangerous crime. (Wiki)
… just in case it confused you, too.

 Quote: Mandatory minimum sentencing is wrong and I think it would benefit society more if drug addicts were "helped" rather than being thrown in jail only to become a real criminals

I agree, but how? A dedicated addict becomes a criminal regardless, almost in spite of himself. Through sheer desperation and need. And, as such, is marred for life. If you have any sensible ideas as to how, run for office. Many would support you.

 Quote: (2)In fact, I would be more weary of the police

Weary? Had a few problems? Sorry, couldn’t resist. Typo, I hope!

And from our old friend Rosco:

 Quote: Personally I don't believe in the punitive or correctional value of locking up a human being to rot in a cage for years , when the humane thing to do with those who really can't be let out , is to put a bullet through their head

Absolutely. Incarceration for life is the worst type of cruel and unusual punishment. There is a current stay of execution in Florida due to a case where the current mode of execution is being so contested. Lethal injection using, I believe, a barbiturate to induce unconsciousness and some agent such as KCl to arrest the heart. This may be unusual but hardly ‘cruel’, if done properly. Perhaps the perpetrator should be offered hanging, or maybe we still have a few electric chairs available, and a bullet, as Rosco said, if aimed well (maybe a salvo) also does the trick.

Nevertheless, Rosco seems a bit confused on other topics, he almost ranted about pigs elsewhere. How do we catch our murderers without the pigs, Rosco? Vigilante? Back to the days of the Old South and West?

It's a question of law inforcement re illegals, Rosco. The laws are there and not applied. Remember, however, that under current law Puerto Ricans are legal, and many are from that country where we live. In this burgh and many in this state the gabble of poor Spanish is annoying, almost as bad as idiots with cell phones.. The Feds and the state should not encourage the use of any language but English. They do so by erecting notices in that language and encouraging applications for welfare in Espanol. C'est la vie! The world is so damned PC today....

And finally, urbs again:

 Quote: I have had the good fortune to become acquainted with quite a number of law enforcement, lawyers, judges, and others who are doing a pretty thankless job every day and are being spit upon by narrow minded shit who haven't done an honest day's work in their entire miserable existence

My regard for lawyers notched higher. And yes, I am damned sure all Kiwis are not as biased as JohnWW. We have several others here in the forum.

Regards, Der Alte
Rosco Bodine
Banned

Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: analytical

talking about cops as "pigs" or even referring to women
as "chicks" for that matter ...I'm no cop hater per se ,
even have a couple of the federal variety in the family .
Hell my cousin is a federal bank examiner , and here I am
talking about the debacle with the dollar like it's any mystery the nature of such things .
But I don't have any respect for the continually and
profligately corrupt who make the pretense of having any moral authority , much less any fitness to lord things
over me , in their illusion clueless they have met their better It makes me want to introduce myself ,
walking tall , with an axehandle in my hand , clearing
the legislature , like Jesus running off the moneychangers
at the temple Hey sheriff , yeah you fatso , there's a new sheriff in town
Sauron
International Hazard

Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: metastable

DerAlte is as always a tough act to follow.

Kudoes, old man!

Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
Harmless

Posts: 3
Registered: 10-12-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

Um....did anyone mention the fact that a police officer has to have your permission to talk to you in the first place. Just say no....to cops. Just a thought. Forgive me for trying to avoid a situation alltogether.
DerAlte
International Hazard

Posts: 779
Registered: 14-5-2007
Location: Erehwon
Member Is Offline

Mood: Disgusted

Is that a fact? Nobody has to ask permission to talk to anyone. Yo' askin' fo' trouble, Boy! If he's polite, he might say "could I ask you a few questions, sir/madam?" but he must talk to you in the first place, must he not? IF your answer to his polite question is no, he may give the bum's rush right into the luxurious back of his cruiser...

Der Alte
12AX7
Post Harlot

Posts: 4803
Registered: 8-3-2005
Location: oscillating
Member Is Offline

Mood: informative

If I wanted to get defensive, I'm sure that's my right. Actually in this case, I was curious and had half a mind to go over and ask.

Tim

Seven Transistor Labs LLC http://seventransistorlabs.com/
Electronic Design, from Concept to Layout.
Need engineering assistance? Drop me a message!
Rosco Bodine
Banned

Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: analytical

 Quote: Originally posted by DerAlte Is that a fact? Nobody has to ask permission to talk to anyone.

A lot depends on who initiates contact and
under what circumstances .

Yes with some qualification , it *is* a fact .
Generally for a cop to even stop and talk to you
acting in an official capacity , there has to be
one of several legally defined good reasons ,
not just idle curiosity or "fishing" . It is *never* "routine"
in terms of being guaranteed to be inconsequential
for you , therefore there are restrictions which apply .
There is no legal difference between a "talk"
and an "interview" and an *interrogation* ,
past the point where the *first* question leaves the
mouth of the police officer . They can ask for name , identification , and have other authority that is
limited and defined for certain situations , and beyond
that Miranda v. Arizona becomes operative , along
with a long list of similar bill of rights related , supreme
law of the land kinds of restrictions on what is proper
police procedure , versus what is abuse of authority
and a violation of constitutional rights , both felonies
themselves . Different rules apply to different situations
but there are well defined scenarios depending upon where the contact occurs , on your own property being the place where police authority is generally most restricted .

 Quote: Yo' askin' fo' trouble, Boy! If he's polite, he might say "could I ask you a few questions, sir/madam?" but he must talk to you in the first place, must he not? IF your answer to his polite question is no, he may give the bum's rush right into the luxurious back of his cruiser... Der Alte

Polite *begins* with a showing of proper identification including badge and a handing of a business card is good also , while concisely stating the nature of the business .
So many of them skip right past that and try to get right to business with people who don't know them from Adam , and that creates problems right from the start especially with
non-uniformed investigators . There's a right way and wrong way of going about such business .

In most situations it is not a crime not to talk to a police officer . Exceptions do exist , like if the police are chasing
a fugitive and observe that fugitive entering your property
and speaking to you , then you could be charged with obstruction for refusing to speak with them about it .

And out on the road , there is something called
"Terry stop" provisions which are guidelines for what
police may do .

http://www.expertlaw.com/library/criminal/police_stops.html

But if there is no *legitimate* probable cause for an arrest , then the civil liability is about 1.2 million dollars damages for that "mistake" , or for other violations of
rights which may occur even in connection with an
arrest where there *is* probable cause . That part of
the oath that involves "supporting and defending the constitution" is *not* a trivial matter . If the constitution
is an impediment to what the police are trying to do ,
almost without exception they are absolutely not doing the right thing . The few exceptions involve split second life and death situations and emergencies where such protocols
become insignificant because there is no time for them .

Otherwise they are expected to act professionally and
do things "by the book" . Part of the problem is that
some police training manuals seem to regard the constitution
as if it was some abstract foreign policy matter , instead
of their first loyalty . A lot of cops pretend the second , fourth,
fifth, and fourteenth amendments just don't exist since those things can make their jobs more difficult .
State and local agencies are worst about running roughshod over the constitution and do so routinely , considering themselves personally to be "the law"
instead of all that complicated legalese stuff that is written in the actual statutes , leaving the "perp" to "tell it to the judge" .

Not ever knowing whether the cop you may be talking to
is professional and honorable , or is one of the ego motivated tricksters , it isn't any wonder that people have
adopted a position of not being conversational with police
unless their lawyer is right there at the party to chaperone .

[Edited on 11-12-2007 by Rosco Bodine]
urbs
Harmless

Posts: 12
Registered: 16-5-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

 Quote: Originally posted by DerAlte Absolutely! I do not too often agree with lawyers, but here’s one who can see the wood for the trees.

I will consider that a high compliment. In point of fact, I am of the opinion that many attorneys whose sole raison de'etre is for lining their pockets should be horse whipped. I come from a family with 7 attorneys and 3 judges who are all within a first cousin's relationship to me. Growing up, it was reinforced that the reason that you do this is so that you can help people. They bring you their worst problem and then it is yours. Hopefully you can help them through it.

I suppose that living in a rural area with a relatively sparse population helps too.

 Quote: The real drug problem to society is not addiction per se, but the resultant organized crime and the not always petty crime indulged in by those addicts.

We have our problems with drugs too. I am not completely sure I agree after having seen the teeth on some of the meth freaks and the sores from picking at their skin, that and the fact that they generally are at best minimally productive members of society.

 Quote: Mandatory minimum sentencing is wrong and I think it would benefit society more if drug addicts were "helped" rather than being thrown in jail only to become a real criminals

 Quote: I agree, but how? A dedicated addict becomes a criminal regardless, almost in spite of himself. Through sheer desperation and need. And, as such, is marred for life.

That and the amazing societal burden of the "helping" . There are some programs that attempt this; the increase in drug courts, probation, government subsidized treatment programs, etc., but these are rarely successful. With a bit of thought, I could probably name the people that I have defended that actually managed to quit using (insert drug of choice) and got straightened out. (I'm talking here of the real junkies/alcoholics, not the high school kid with a joint)...... I am that proud of them.

How many times do you send that 28 year old meth addict to treatment? What do you do about him beating his old lady and neglecting his kids in the meantime? I am all for rehabilitation, and if it looks like there might be a chance that we can make a positive change, I can talk the judge and county prosecutor into it every time. Do you know how frustrating it is to defend/prosecute/sentence the same person time after time for the same stupid shit? Sometimes I just want to slap the shit out of them and tell them to grow the hell up. (actually I did yell at one of them using about that same phrase) "Do you know how many times most people get charged with assault? None! Most of the people out there don't even know where the f_____ing courtroom is" "Grow the hell up!" Kinda lost my cool in the hall outside the courtroom.

 Quote: The Feds and the state should not encourage the use of any language but English. They do so by erecting notices in that language and encouraging applications for welfare in Espanol. C'est la vie! The world is so damned PC today....

Agreed. A town 30 miles from here has officially become over 50% Hispanic, many of whom are not able to speak English. This has caused some of us to make some corrections such as interpreters, and the incidence of some types of crimes has increased, but for the most part, the individuals are pretty good folk, they have jobs, are VERY family oriented, and they pay their lawyer, usually in cash. More than I can say for some of the "po' white trash" around here. All of these comments should be taken to refer to the older Hispanics only, however, since they are typically first generation immigrants. The children of these folk speak excellent English, are generally good students, and are capitalists in the best sense of the word. My own ancestors were Irish, German and Swedish, who were all considered low life scum during that time period when they came to the US. In time, the melting pot amalgamated them all, the differences disappeared, and now they are just Americans.

 Quote: My regard for lawyers notched higher.

Again, thank you, not all of us are a Henny Youngman cliche'.

[Edited on 11-12-2007 by urbs]
Sauron
International Hazard

Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: metastable

Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
Rosco Bodine
Banned

Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: analytical

You have seen those old steam locomotives that have
a plow shaped gadget on the front called a cow catcher .
A similar fixture is engineered into the diamond plate step bumper on the back of EMT paramedic vehicles , for deflecting the frequent high speed rear end collisions inflicted by personal injury attorneys in hot pursuit
markgollum
Hazard to Self

Posts: 52
Registered: 21-2-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

I am not filled with the vitriol That JohnWW is.
I don’t agree with John on many things, but I agree with him on some things.
The treatment of the detainees in Abu Graib, Guantánamo Bay, etc is abhorrent to me, holding someone without charges or a public trial for protracted periods of time is un justifiable.
But, in the proper context I don’t have a problem with doing terrible things to someone to save an others life. Let me lay out a scenario, you catch a serial killer suspected of kidnaping two people you go to his basement with a warrant and find one of the victims chained up and the personal items from the other missing person. The person found in the basement confirms the other victim was also there and the “suspect” claims that the other victim is chained up somewhere dying of thirst and exposure but he refuses to tell you where. In this case, there really is no amount of suffering that you could put the suspect through over the next 3-5 days, with the goal of rescuing the second victim, that I would find objectionable. It is understood that this would only be done if there was no other good way to find the victim within a short time.

The treatment of suspected “terrorist” detainees as occurred in Abu Graib etc is not an example of this because apparently it was known that something like 80% of the “detainees” did not posses meaningful intel. Also in my opinion in order to do something terrible to someone you need to show the following:

1) The intel he posses is essentially inextricably linked to directly saving someone’s life/preventing a murderous event.

2) The accountability, knowledge, and discretion of the interrogator. It is unacceptable for the interrogator to be wrong about (1).

I realize that in the real world the conditions will rarely ever be met but the intention is to prevent torture from running rampant as it tends to do once you “let the genie out of the bottle”.

I don’t agree that there are many people that have been imprisoned that don’t belong there, either because they have been framed by a cop or otherwise. I think many deserve much worse, but the rape, intimidation, etc that occurs in prison is also unacceptable. I think that prisons should be designed so that there is nowhere that anyone (including the guards) can go without being videotaped (the video would be recorded in a mainframe, operators only watch trouble areas) so that when a rape allegation arises the appropriate tapes are viewed and the rapist who has no means to conceal his identity is frog marched out into the courtyard to receive “two in the head”.
(of course if it doesn’t look like rape for sure, a better investigation is warranted).

And I don’t think that you can bribe a cop in North America with any real degree of success. But I do think that many selectively enforce the law and quite a few abuse their power and position to abuse civilians for a variety of reasons. And they defiantly will lie on the stand in a court of law to defend themselves or a fellow officer.

I definitely disagree with the idea that the USA or any western country will fall in the next few years it’s a waste of time for me to explain why.(sorry John, I hope you don’t take this badly)
chloric1
International Hazard

Posts: 1039
Registered: 8-10-2003
Location: closer to the anode
Member Is Offline

Mood: Strongly alkaline

 Quote: Originally posted by JohnWW This, plus the astronomical and accelerating gap between rich and poor (also entrenched by the system), is why I predict REVOLUTION, led by armed militia and a horde of destitute homeless, and supported by mutinous local cops and military personnel who will turn on their commanders, will break out in the U\$A within 5 years, and probably sooner rather than later, no matter who is in power. [Edited on 13-12-07 by JohnWW]

I agree with JohnWW. The number of homeless has increased to a level I feel is unprecedented. WHen I grew up in my midwestern city you pretty much had to go downtown to find them, now they roam residential areas! Costs are going up rapidly but wages have been stagnant for nearly ten years. I have since given up on obtaining upward mobility with a traditional job per se. Working conditions are rapidly tanking and anyone with the vision definately should be looking for more enterprising solutions. The Revolution John speaks of might actually has a reallity that turns my stomach. If you think about it, The elite that control everything would be the only true beneficiaries. With this ensuing chaos, marshall law will be enacted and a police state will be in full effect.

This is all gruesomely grim and I am more than ready to entertain the idea I am incorrect. So please markgallop please explain what is wrong with my thinking.

[Edited on 12/30/2007 by chloric1]

[Edited on 12/30/2007 by chloric1]

In the theater of life its nice to know where the exit doors are located.
Pages:  1  2

 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Non-chemistry » Legal and Societal Issues » Police Questions Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues