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Author: Subject: phenylacetonitrile lockdown
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[*] posted on 16-12-2007 at 00:11
phenylacetonitrile lockdown


a member had started thread on phenylacetonitrile with some chemistry questions and was shut down with a glib we don't like drug threads. I thought that was a bit less tolerant than I'd like us to be. The member didn't say anything about drugs he just cited PiKHAL. I doubt if sci.chem.org would be that anal. Let's lighten up please.
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[*] posted on 21-12-2007 at 01:33


I want to second that. I have attempted synthesis of benzyl cyanide before and have no intention of making meth (isn't that what it's used for?)



"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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[*] posted on 21-12-2007 at 03:43


Many threads have been closed because of narrow mindedness .....not all chemicals have one particular use......aside, science to me means to investigate regardless of societies myopic view .....I myself, as a bee like clandestine chemistry ...I don't use drugs, but I still enjoy the mystery and challenge of synthesis, but then I'm also enthused by the other types of synthesis both in inorganic and organic chemistry. The forum has recently been riddled by this type of discussion and it takes away from the spirit of science and dwells into philosophy and personal views ....all fine, but not in a science forum.....save it for the pub or your friends........solo



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[*] posted on 21-12-2007 at 04:37


It's Polverone's board, and he can run it as he sees fit. It is not a democracy..

The thread author was stimo-roll, his reaction was from erowid and PIHKAL, he wanted to substite potassium tert-butoxide for LDA.

Another member pointed out to him that the prep clearly stated that purification was difficult and yield poor, so why bother.

Forum gatekeeper vulture pointed out that t-BuOK will not work, and closed the thread.

I concurr with vulture that this was a drug cook working from drug cookbooks and without a clue, therefore seeking spoonfeeding. IMO that is why vulture shut the thread down.

I see nothing wrong with the status quo of moderation. A better informed thread on phenylacetonitrile would not likely be shut down. The stuff is versatile, I have a couple liters sitting around myself. And I am no drug cook. It is used to make the excellent peptide reagent Boc_ON.

[Edited on 21-12-2007 by Sauron]




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[*] posted on 21-12-2007 at 09:11


OH! That thread. Ok, I now know of what you speak. I thought he was talking about a different thread.



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[*] posted on 21-12-2007 at 09:41


I would not have closed that thread personally, but the other members of the moderation team operate using their own discretion and I will rarely attempt to challenge their judgments. If vulture felt that particular thread started off on the wrong foot, so be it.



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[*] posted on 21-12-2007 at 09:50


Again, phenylacetonitrile (benzyl cyanide) is not a particularly blatant precursor (unlike, say, P2P) and an intelligent and competent discussion without requests for spoonfeeding would probably make no waves. IMO solely of course.

Org Syn has straightforward prep scale procedure for this compound from benzyl halide. No need for erowid, etc. and an inferior process fraught with problems.

Where I am, benzyl chloride and bromide are verboten but benzyl cyanide is OK. Go figure. So I just buy it. But if I wanted to make it I'd follow garage chemist's suggestion and start with benzyl alcohol.




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[*] posted on 21-12-2007 at 13:15


Benzyl alcohol + HCl was how I got to benzyl chloride. That's a lot easier than chlorinating toluene IMO (especially determining how much chlorination has taken place). Then of course just follow Org Syn procedure to benzyl cyanide.

My personal experience will not be very informative since it was so long ago and with such small amounts. Too bad this is on forum matters. I'd like to see some experiences.




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[*] posted on 21-12-2007 at 22:38


well I think we beat this one enough. I was relieved to see Polverone's response.



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[*] posted on 31-12-2007 at 05:48


Yes, that thread could result in an interesting discussion, I'm glad someone started this thread. PiHKAL should maybe avoided in the title if threads are to survive ;).

I'm away from lit search during holiday, but if t-BuOK is to be used it would have to be in the form of LiCKOR (superbase n-BuLi/t-BuOK), I don't think that t-BuOK alone is powerful enough, but even with LiCKOR there might be problem with lithium-halogen exchange. There is a really cool synthesis of ibuprofen from p-xylene using nothing but LiCKOR chemistry, with LiCKOR being capable to deprotonate -CH3, :D :D but this is getting off-topic.


Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron
Again, phenylacetonitrile (benzyl cyanide) is not a particularly blatant precursor (unlike, say, P2P) and an intelligent and competent discussion without requests for spoonfeeding would probably make no waves. IMO solely of course.

Org Syn has straightforward prep scale procedure for this compound from benzyl halide. No need for erowid, etc. and an inferior process fraught with problems.

Where I am, benzyl chloride and bromide are verboten but benzyl cyanide is OK. Go figure. So I just buy it. But if I wanted to make it I'd follow garage chemist's suggestion and start with benzyl alcohol.


Wake up from that fantasy world. ;) The problem was not to prepare phenylacetonitrile, but to prepare a phenylacetonitrile with that particular substitution pattern on the the ring. ;) Hence the need for route other than benzyl halide/cyanide Sn2 which any tweaker is familiar with.

[Edited on 31-12-2007 by Sandmeyer]




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[*] posted on 31-12-2007 at 19:50


Smell the roses. Vulture booted the thread. Take it up with him, not me, if you have the balls, which I seriously doubt.



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[*] posted on 1-1-2008 at 15:16


Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron
Smell the roses. Vulture booted the thread. Take it up with him, not me, if you have the balls, which I seriously doubt.


Why would I contact him, I was speaking to you? Contrary to what you seem to believe, I have no irrational fear for moderators. It is obviously your problem since you're kissing their ass every second post.

[Edited on 1-1-2008 by Sandmeyer]




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[*] posted on 2-1-2008 at 04:18


sandmeyer, I have no regard for you. But it is obvious that you have enough for yourself to go around.

As far as I am concerned, you are and always have been an irritating nonentity. Screw off, why don't you?

Here's my "ass-kiss" of the day

Vulture was right to shut down the thread inquestion. He not only was within his prerogatives as a mod, he was objectively correct and acted properly. I don't care how many smarmy apologists for druggies, like sandmeyer think otherwise. You guys can take yourselves elsewhere and do the rest of us a huge favor.

Polverone and the moderators have achieved a bananced fair approach, but that does not satisfy the sandmeyers, they winge and whine over every cook thread that gets shut down. It's sickening.




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mad.gif posted on 2-1-2008 at 09:16


And lo, Ramiel descended from mount Cyanide...
Stop with the inflammatory comments and name calling. I'm a vengeful Mod, and I'll lock this one too if you can't converse like scholars.




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[*] posted on 2-1-2008 at 15:05


The thread had all the red flags of cookery and the author clearly didn't have a clue about chemistry, nor was he showing any intention to learn or adapt, so it got closed.

I wish a had a falsified method to determine if a person is a cook or not and whether the thread is rubbish or not, but I'm not a FBI profiler and even they get it wrong. So I have to rely on personal discretion. And I still think it was a good call to close that thread.

But perhaps I should stop locking threads to prevent discussions from going out of hand and just blocking the offenders for a while instead?
And my personal discretion is NOT influenced by the post count next to your name...

[Edited on 3-1-2008 by vulture]




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[*] posted on 22-1-2008 at 09:31


Vulture, are you sure you are not just a terrorist sympathisant promoting poison and explosives chemistry?

Take some LSD to lighten up.
Dont forget your valiums and chill the fuck out.

Sauron is a fascist. It would be appropriate to block him for two weeks every time he posts in a thread without contributing but just bitching.

Cant you see it? "Divide et impera" Soccer mom policy. the drug chemistry comes first, the poisons next and then the explosives are shut down. As soon amateur scientists allow to get divided they are doomed alltogether.

/ORG

PS: Can somebody answer me the simple question how somebody who pretends to be a legal chemist with a legal business can contemplate to scratch matchbox strikers to get red phosphorus? Why not just buy it? You dont have to fear a visit from the goverment Sauron or do you? Hypocrite. I am more legal then you have ever been. Why did you run from the USA? What are you afraid of?


PSII: And all of you be assured, that drugs, MDMA and speed are more enjoyable for an individuum and for the public then nerve poisons and explosives are. Just try it. But its all just chemistry and everybody has to start somewhere. Just dont tell anybody where.


On new years eve after having ingested some highly illegal homemade mindaltering substances and after having had some highly enjoyable sex my girlfriend and me went out to celebrate the new year on the main square just to watch some idiot blowing his right hand to pieces injuring unrelated bystanders with some homemade fireworks.
Nevertheless I dont jump into the explosives forum and start bitching. Maybe I should.

[Edited on 22-1-2008 by Organikum]




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[*] posted on 22-1-2008 at 18:23


Quote:
Originally posted by solo
The forum has recently been riddled by this type of discussion and it takes away from the spirit of science and dwells into philosophy and personal views ....all fine, but not in a science forum.....save it for the pub or your friends........solo

Bingo.
It shows clearly weaknesses of moderating at this forum. That is all I wanted to say.
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[*] posted on 22-1-2008 at 18:49


Quote:
Cant you see it? "Divide et impera" Soccer mom policy. the drug chemistry comes first, the poisons next and then the explosives are shut down. As soon amateur scientists allow to get divided they are doomed alltogether.


...........................Org.



It's true this forum is being polarized by recent voistrous new members with the intent to make the forum to their liking......this forum has always been open to all types of ideas and has been a home for many Hive members for years......as well as members from many other forums......it's the freedom that's felt here ....something that has been falling because of infiltrations from moonies and the type, wanting to wield their will on the forum......it's our home! and it's worth fighting for..................solo




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[*] posted on 22-1-2008 at 21:15


Overzealous efforts to exclude drug chemists has created a sense of hypervigilence and intolerence. I saw many older threads that indicated an earlier openness I feel we should try to retrieve. Sasha Shulgin would have been run out of here under the standard applied when the phenylacetonitrile thread was locked. Maybe the forum stewards should meet and agree before taking such dire actions.

I edited to add a quote that seems apropos:

He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice."
~ Albert Einstein



[Edited on 22-1-2008 by chemrox]




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[*] posted on 23-1-2008 at 02:23


I dont remember the exact quote but it goes somehow like this, IIRC it was from a catholic referring to Nazi germany:

"When the came after the communists I stayed silent for I was no communist. When they came after the jews I stayed silent for I was no jew. When they came after me nobody was left to speak up."




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[*] posted on 23-1-2008 at 09:57


I am neither a fascist nor a moonies, but I feel strongly that the druggie-chemists and cooks are destroying everything that we hold dear.

I see Orgie waits till my attention is elsewhere for a few days before he barfs up his bile.

Anyone who thinks that I am influencing the policies set by Polverone and implemented by vulture, has his head up his ass. Obviously I do not have the ear of the court. I was suspended for a week for stating my case too loudly and too often.

But I'll tell you something. I am not the only member who hates the druggies and their entire subculture. Far from it.




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[*] posted on 23-1-2008 at 10:16


I lurk much more than I post, mostly due to the fact I've little to add to many threads - that is, I either try to post information that is pertinent to the topic at hand or I don't post at all.

How I wish this was the case in general.

It's really quite a tragedy to start reading a thread and then see it deviate off-topic because members X,Y,Z do not agree with topic W.

Everyone has their forte, likes, and dislikes. I fail to see how it is relevant to the discussion of scientific topics.

There is good reason for drug, explosive, and poison threads that do not discuss a topic in a scientific manner to be locked: the original posters either should not have the information, or are intending to use it for purposes that I think we can all agree will likely end in some sort of misfortune...

So there is good reason to moderate such threads. But drugs, explosives, and poisons are all a part of the world of chemistry. I fail to see how we as scientists, constantly assign their intrinsic societal worth to this forum where everyone clearly has their own subjective opinion. And an opinion has little place in the discussion of chemistry, which is a science, and so is not meant to be significantly subjective.

This is all to say: if you don't have anything to add, other than your opinion or a random comment, why bother posting at all? It does not add anything at all to discussion but rather deviates it off topic so that next time someone tries searching for that information, they instead find a flame festival - and then start a new thread and cause the process to begin anew.

Anyone who is not a moderator that has a problem with a thread should PM the appropriate moderator with the concerns: neither the OP or anyone replying with useful information cares about your (contrary) opinion, so please don't ruin the thread with useless banter.

If a topic is covered once, thoroughly, a thread asking a common question can be locked under the guise of UTFSE, which all people should do before starting a new thread to begin with... and it eliminates these discussions, which, from my observations, seem to occur every single time a thread on a drug, AP, poison, or any other "societal taboo" is discussed.

And this banter degrades the forum - for most members - much more than any thread on a nerve agent, explosive, or drug might. Sure, there may be legal concerns, but the moderating team here is well aware of the fact, so please, for us members, let's stick to the discussion of amateur chemistry in a scientific fashion, and not the possible practical/societal consequences of it's application.
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[*] posted on 23-1-2008 at 15:09


Thanks PainKilla your words are better than I could ever say it.

Sauron, just because I am the one who is swinging the axe doesnt say I am alone. I dont hate you, as hating is for the weak in mind. Hating makes a person suffer, so I am happy to hear that you hate us. For it doesnt bother me and it makes you sick. Enjoy! :D

/ORG




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[*] posted on 23-1-2008 at 19:12


I consider Sauron to be a friend and a major contributor here. I couldn't disagree with him more on this topic. Regulation is the mother of tragedy not the other way around. There are huge profits in wars and the WOD is no exception. So that's my little piece. It's not what I'm here for. I feel that slamming the door on a topic or flaming the writer because there's a drug, poison or explosive being considered is excessive and amounts to censorship. Every board, forum, etc has a flavor. We're not in any danger of changing the flavor. Newbies pick up on the nuances after a few days or weeks. Medicinal Chemistry is a noble art as are pyrotechnics and toxicology. When people are new they don't know how to put things to be in line with the norms here but they learn in a few weeks. Meanwhile, why be rude, mean, judgmenta? Also, the censorship creates an environemnt of hostility and repression that was never intended. I'm pretty sure Polverone wouldn't have shut the acetonitrile thread and I think it was a knee-jerk on a bad day on Vulture's part. I hope so. Let's be more open not less. I have already stopped myself from contributing a number of times. And I'm not here to give my political views...I wish the need wouldn't come up.



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[*] posted on 23-1-2008 at 20:36


chemrox, this thread is not a debate about the WOD. It is a concealed attack on the policies of Polverone and the action of vulture. Well, vulture has explained himself.

Those who want to blame these policies and actions on me, like Orgie who calls me a fascist, are being disingenuous. Contrary to their insinuations, I have nothing to do with formulating policy on this board. Far from it.

Polverone has struck a balance between making this a nest of drug cooks and making this a safer place for real chemists. Well, the drug cooks and their fellow travellers and apologists don't like it. IMO tough shit. Those of us who would prefer to see even stricter action, also chafe, but, for my part, I can live with the status quo.

The drug cooks are destroying our hobby. They are doing lots of other damage, needless to say. but what concerns me most is that THEY are destroying OUR hobby.




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