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Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
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Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
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Well put MagicJigPipe!
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Fact:
It is terribly costly for DEA to impose regulatory compliance upon listed chemicals. |
When did a government agency ever worry about costs?
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soxhlet
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One must consider regulatory impact on a macro scale. The change to list1 statue of iodine requires identification of, and notification to, tens of
thousands of small businesses that sell 7% tincture. Those businesses then must apply for a registration. The application review process requires
formal onsite audits and takes months to complete. The manpower required to perform this is remarkable. The administrative audits require that
agents perform perfunctory duties rather than participate on task forces.
This thread has already identified why chemicals are becoming more difficult for hobbyists to obtain. Large-scale suppliers have deep pockets and are
afraid of being sued when their products find use outside of a reasonably well equipped environment. Large companies wish to hide behind OSHA to
shield them from liability.
Its not too unreasonable for people to perceive risks associated with garage/basement laboratories even if the risk is to a college student’s little
brother.
And, its not too difficult to get around this. Many supply houses don’t inquire beyond a business tax id. Simply follow business policy.
Drug cooks most often use walmart.
I am speculating here,, but if a recently proposed restriction is any indication of future direction, some of the immediate drug precursors are going
to become scheduled rather than listed.
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Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
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Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
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| Quote: |
This thread has already identified why chemicals are becoming more difficult for hobbyists to obtain. Large-scale suppliers have deep pockets and are
afraid of being sued when their products find use outside of a reasonably well equipped environment. Large companies wish to hide behind OSHA to
shield them from liability.
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I think this is just a simplistic answer, and is often cited as the reason individuals have been denied chemicals by the major suppliers. This has
only been the case in the last 10 years or so. Where was their fear of suit before this?
All corporations are subject to being sued for product liability, real or imagined. Just take the "too hot" McDonald's coffee suit for instance. It
hasn't stopped them or anyone else from selling hot coffee.
It's just too easy for the major chemical suppliers to cave in to the DEA propaganda and intimidation. After all who cares about the home chemists
anyway?
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MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
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| Quote: |
One must consider regulatory impact on a macro scale. The change to list1 statue of iodine requires identification of, and notification to, tens of
thousands of small businesses that sell 7% tincture. Those businesses then must apply for a registration. The application review process requires
formal onsite audits and takes months to complete. The manpower required to perform this is remarkable. |
Actually, the most likely scenario is that those bussinesses will just stop selling it altogether. Therefore the DEA has essentially outlawed a
chemical with no more than the stroke of a pen. It costs them virtually nothing. In fact, I can confirm this phenomena in at least one agriculture
supply store in my area. They no longer carry iodine tincture. Not even 2%.
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The administrative audits require that agents perform perfunctory duties rather than participate on task forces.
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Like I said above, most businesses don't want to deal with the costs/risk and will just simply stop stocking it.
| Quote: | | Many supply houses don’t inquire beyond a business tax id. Simply follow business policy. |
Change that "many" to "few" and you've got it right, IMO.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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evil_lurker
National Hazard
Posts: 767
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Location: United States of Elbonia
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Mood: On the wagon again.
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Keep in mind, that any chemical company that handles List I chemicals or participates in regulated transactions has to pay $2,500 or so per year in
administrative costs to obtain and keep a license. So MJP is somewhat correct that funding for the DEA is moot point as chemical suppliers carry the
majority of the costs.
Its not that hard to purchase reagents even from notorious tight asses such as cole palmer, sigma aldrich, fisher, and others. It just takes time. All
that is needed is incorporation, establishing at least a one and preferably two year credit history with at least 3 references, a DUNS credit file,
and a bonafide business storefront such as a website.
In the mean time, you establish business relationships with the suppliers lower down on the food chain. If you can just get your foot in the door, get
to know your sales reps by name, and maintain a several year history with them, most of them are more than willing to work with you on getting
"advanced" or dangerous materials and will provide those oh so valuable references needed to access the "holy" chemical suppliers.
Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in
beer.
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soxhlet
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MJP does have merit in general. AFOAF is registered. Says that DEA compliance audits are like getting sex instruction from your inlaws. Don’t
quite know what he meant but it doesn’t sound very enjoyable. Lots of businesses won’t sell listed chemicals because they don’t want another
god awful regulatory agency meddling in their livelihoods.
The $2500 annual registration fee probably does offset much of the cost of annual compliance audits. However, DEA spends loads of manhours in
implement efforts. The effort involved in initial identification of current suppliers is no small endeavor.
General statements tend to be too broad to be reliable. If one considers 7% iodine tincture, well, folks will not go out and shoot their horses
because DEA listed iodine. In this case, a large portion of the demand will remain unaffected. If the demand is present, suppliers will fill the
gap. AFAIK much of the tincture sales have gone toward veterinarians.
Last I knew, ColePalmer had opened up a big portion of its offering to the general public.
Mr Luker has the method down cold. Its not all that difficult to work within the system. Takes some time and patience.
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MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Suspicious
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| Quote: | Its not that hard to purchase reagents even from notorious tight asses such as cole palmer, sigma aldrich, fisher, and others. It just takes time. All
that is needed is incorporation, establishing at least a one and preferably two year credit history with at least 3 references, a DUNS credit file,
and a bonafide business storefront such as a website.
In the mean time, you establish business relationships with the suppliers lower down on the food chain. If you can just get your foot in the door, get
to know your sales reps by name, and maintain a several year history with them, most of them are more than willing to work with you on getting
"advanced" or dangerous materials and will provide those oh so valuable references needed to access the "holy" chemical suppliers.
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Holy shit! Is that all? I'm ordering some thionyl chloride from Fisher tomorrow! **laughs jokingly**
Oh yeah, you forgot to add lots of money to the time requirement. Let's come back down to Earth for a second, though. No offense, I just don't
consider that "not that hard".
Not to mention that once you start doing that you become "higher profile" and even if you're not doing anything illegal we all know how the govt.
likes to prey on everyone including "legitimate" ameteur chemists. I wonder how many big time drug manufacturers have done something similar?
I know it's possible and is being done by some but it's just not practicle for most of us. I think I might try it some day but it will have to be
once I start making good money.
Thanks for the insight, evil. Just know that I certainly wasn't trying to insult you in any way.
[Edited on 4-13-2008 by MagicJigPipe]
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Suspicious
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Also, I have solvents for sale.
On hand I have:
EtOH anhydrous (1% isopropanol, 1% isopropyl acetate) $4 a liter.
MeOH $1.50 a liter.
Toluene $4 a liter.
Ethyl acetate $6 a liter
All are technical grade. I'll put them in glass bottles. I can also obtain just about any common technical grade solvent (butanol, isobutanol,
acetone, isopropanol etc...)
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Suspicious
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Okay guys, this is the last chemical list I'll post. I can obtain most of the chemicals below (technical grade) relatively cheap. It is subject to
availability. I'm not guaranteeing that all of these will be available all the time. Just ask me...
--Aliphatic--
Hexane
Heptane
LD Naptha
VM&P Naptha
Mineral spirits
Mineral seal oil
Odorless mineral spirits
--Aromatic--
Toluene
Xylene
Sol 100?
Sol 150?
--Chlorinated-- (Sorry guys, discontinued)
--Glycol Ethers--
Ethylene glycol monomethyl ether
""monopropyl""
""monobutyl""
Dipropylene glycol monomethyl ether
Diethylene glycol monomethyl ether
''''monoethyl''''
""monobutyl""
--Alcohols--
Methanol
Ethanol Anhydrous
Ethanol
Isopropanol anhydrous
n-propanol
isobutanol
butanol
n-pentanol (check availability)
2-ethylhexanol (sometimes known as isooctanol)
--Ketones--
Acetone
2-butanone (MEK)
Methylisobutyl ketone (MIBK)
Methyl n-amyl ketone
Cyclohexanone
Diacetone alcohol (4-Hydroxy-4-methyl-pentan-2-one; 2-pentanone)
Isophorone (3,5,5-Trimethyl-2-cyclohexen-1-one)
--Esters--
Ethyl acetate
Isopropyl acetate
Propyl acetate
Isobutyl acetate
Butyl acetate
Amyl acetate
Isobutyl isobutyrate
Propylene glycol monomethyl ether acetate
Ethylene glycol monomethyl ether acetate
--Glycols--
Propylene
Ethylene
Hexylene
Dipropylene
Diethylene
Triethylene
Monoethanolamine
Morpholine
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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SpunBobSynthWeaver
Harmless
Posts: 1
Registered: 11-7-2008
Location: Above ground.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Chemokinesthetically active
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I believe that if a material is legal to purchase, and falls under threshold quantities, then why not purchase in advance? I buy books all the time
that I haven't read yet... The issue is storage, away from the other members of the triad (reagents, glassware, intent/ability - reference texts
could go here if the trend continues). I agree, I have seen certain of the abovementioned not only become more difficult to find, but the
institutions that used to serve 'em up, have gone the way of the wind...
I was musing the other day to a friend of mine that it seems like the intent is simply to make it economically unfeasible to even contemplate helping
a precursor evolve... If it takes you 5 hours to achieve a 50 % yield of precursor, and you use solvent in excess (perhaps to break an emulsion), and
you still have 1 or more intermediate reactions/proceedures until final product? Spendy in time, spendy in cash... That will weed out a lot of local
folk (all it really does is shift the economics of production to foreign import). The rest, will become ever more skilled and creative, and may very
well make a can of Toluene last for years, what with reclaimation via distillation... But, if nothing else, I trust in the creativity of the chemist,
combined with the drive to live as you determine is best; to do what you will... That will overcome a lot of obstacles... Sure, it may mean that
nano is the way of the walk, and the interval between labwork becomes longer and longer, but you cannot eliminate everything... Too many consumer
goods, and too many smart people who can walk thru a cloud of funny smell and say, 'y'know, that smells like an acetate moiety... I wonder if I can
do something with that... And, hydrogen vehicles will continue to permeate the market, and who wants to bet me a dime against a dozen donuts that
someone will figure out a way to manufacture a catalyst, and chemhack a Parr bomb... Still, it is a pain in the ass, and seems reasonable to pursue
stockpiling. Hell, given the current geopolitical climate, and the fragility of the US in general, is it so unreasonable to postulate a series of
events, deliberate or not, that combine, magnify and finally bring us to the point of collapse? You might need that iodine to purify water. You
might need to know how to distill to live... That knowledge base that you walk around with that concerns which plants have components of interest may
determine your survival; should the switch flip like that...
And really, I find myself contemplating, and achieving a deeper understanding of a reaction when I'm forced to deviate from standard conditions...
You may save what might have been lost, simply by understanding certain basic physical laws and constants... Anyway, I'll acquire until I retire, but
that's just me... If some is good, more is better... And I seem to recall that Strike bought a 50 gal drum of isosafrole before it was watched, and
declaimed that it was the best move he ever made... Ahhh, don't mind me, this is FIRST POST!
Hello all...
PETN is just nifty... A pharmacodynamically active compound, that is also an explosive... Taking harm to heal ratio to the Planck scale, baby,
yeah!!!
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grndpndr
National Hazard
Posts: 508
Registered: 9-7-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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I am far from a conspiracy nut but when access to SA drain cleaner is being systematically outlawed in certain states as well as the cpsc making AL
powder and may other formerly
OTC materials controlled /replaced w/ innoccuos substitutes put in place it cant be ignored.AN 32%-34% by the 100lb sack was available not long ago as
was a gallons of NM OTC at auto speed shops < $40and some hobby shops caterng to model airplane etc ethusiasts.max content of NM contaning fuels
dropped from 80% to 55% this last year and pure fuel NM must be mailed /shipped to a buisiness address,at least the gallon and larger containers from
speed shops.
obviously to make it more difficult to make a binary or obtain Nm for other purposes.Reduced to buying cold packs with 2-3 oz may or may not contain
AN,instead Urea is often used and at $1.25+ for a few OZs of AN thats expensive AN!
I dont see how all sources of precursors from aspirin to SA can be contained/regulated? we do need auto batterys, we do need to treat headaches but
nitrates in fertilizers such as nitrate of soda now readilly available I fear will soon be a thing of the past containing substaces that prevent its
use as a nitrating precursor.It may come to extracting pott nitrate from the nitrate salt bearing dirt in chicken coops etc.If I were to ratthole
some precursors SA DRAIN CLEANER93%-98%/Garage size containers of BATTERY ELECTROLYTES 30% would be first on the list followed by a FERILIZER GRADE
NITRATE of SODIUM(sodium nitrate 4lb sacks $6-$8)the basics to nitrate any number of HEs and familys of hes containing primarys-secodays. There are
so many possibilitys contained in patents and publications it seems to be an impossible task preventing experimentation.now wholesale production which
i doubt any here are interested in and what the gov should be concerned with easily made blasting explosives made in quantities is what should scare
The authorities and what scare me.However it seems the terrorists in the US may be considereing reverting to less spectacular attacks but more of
them which could involve firearms,fuel products/or fougasses,smaller explosive devices the size of claymores in soft trgets such as churches
etc.More#s isolated cells-more attacks? Ive crossed the line as far as the topics concerned but the supposed gvt reasoning IS terrorism,but i would
suspect with the difficultys in obtaining large quantities of immediately usable AN w/o purifying and the Urea also becoming more diffcult to obtain
in quantities larger than what a garden could use unlikely the thousands of LBs of Urea or AN needed for a truck or even car bomb becoming
difficult!!Unless extremely well organized in stealing or being able to by surreptitiusly buy/manufacture these items and the substantial amounts of
nitric needed to make the urea nitrate or supposed OTC urea nitrate synthesis?It can be made more difficult but with the most recent attempt at
terrorism overseas by very intelligent men!? utilizing schoolboy kewl unworkable
Ideas im wonderin about competency of the enemy at times.
If the best educated men can do is liquid peroxides carried about in coolers w/o any clues as how with what material inert or energetic to use to add
to and desensitise the HE,any member here is capable of that simple task.Rant over.
[Edited on 17-8-2008 by grndpndr]
[Edited on 17-8-2008 by grndpndr]
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