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Author: Subject: Chemicals to Stock Up On (US)
microcosmicus
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You can find their MSDS here:

http://www.whink.com/rust_stain_remover.htm

It says 2.5 - 3.0%

You can order the product through the same website.
It is also to be found at Ace hardware:

http://www.acehardware.com/sm-whink-rust-stain-remover-01261...

From what I see on the web, people are using HF to clean rust stains off
their clothes and bathtubs. Hopefully, they are washing it off well, ideally
neutralizing it as well (soap should work). For both their sake and ours,
let's hope nobody tries to use it to clean rust stains off their skin, hand
wash the stains without gloves, spill the stuff all over the place, or
something equally dumb and come down with hypocalcemia. One good
lawsuit is likely all it would take to make the stuff disappear. I'm still mourning
the loss of iodine and wouldn't want to see yet another halogen put out
of public reach
garage chemist
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That is unlikely. HF of less than 4% concentration does not have the skin toxicity that normally makes it so dangerous.
Spilling this rust remover on your skin will most likely not result in too much damage.
It is still seriously toxic orally, though.

www.versuchschemie.de
Das aktivste deutsche Chemieforum!
anotheronebitesthedust
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HF Rust Remover

From experience I can say that when I got it on my skin it made me itchy. Also gave me a mild rash that didn't last very long.
National Hazard

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Mood: @%&$ing hardcore baby Eh good luck... I think ebay might be the only true remaining source of chemicals on this earth. Either that you better make some contacts in the chemical industry because to be honest stores are most likely going to be carrying just enzymes and shit. It used to be that the eisles were filled with lye and sulfuric acid drain cleaners now its a 50/50 mix of lye and enzymes. Hell even the lye contains metal and nitrates. Honestly this planet is better off in the stone age. Thats what everyone wants here. At least then we don't have to worry about global warming, pedophiles hunting jail bait, overpopulation, turning in next weeks homework assignment, terrorists and meth. We can all just give up and piss on hundreds of years of accomplishment. Perhaps some son of a bitch can come up with chemical bonds, kinematic equations, Utopias, rap music, politics and restart this whole process again... [Edited on 11-1-2008 by DeAdFX] MagicJigPipe International Hazard Posts: 1554 Registered: 19-9-2007 Location: USA Member Is Offline Mood: Suspicious I would like to report that I went to buy a can of toluene today. As I approached the counter I noticed a newspaper article posted on the register. It seemed to be just your typical meth scare (pun intended a la Red Scare) mumbo jumbo with a picture of "household chemicals used to cook meth". I proceeded to the register and placed my item on the counter when I was greeted with "I need to see your ID please". I asked "Why?". While pointing to the article she said, "people use this to to make meth so from now on we're keeping track of who buys it". So, wanting to avoid suspicion and confrontation I handed over my ID. She took it, turned around and took it to a copy machine behind the counter and copied my ID! Without asking! Well, then I had to say something. I said, "What are you doing?". She replied with, "I have to make a copy of your ID so we can see how many ILLEGAL chemicals you are buying". Yes, she said illegal! Deciding to vent my disgust elsewhere, I informed them that I would not be shopping there anymore, completed the transaction and left. I can't believe this. That was the only store (that I know of) in my close proximity that still sold toluene. This is outrageous. I can't believe she actually thought the toluene was illegal! One other thing that happened to me a long time ago that I forgot to mention is when I called a pharmacy trying to buy some benzyl alcohol. The pharmacist said I would have to wait while he "called the board to make sure I can't make any drugs or explosives with it". I called him back a week later and he said I could buy it. Regardless, it's just stupid. Mass hysteria is what it is. I no longer consider this fear rational. "There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer anotheronebitesthedust Hazard to Others Posts: 189 Registered: 24-6-2007 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood Maybe they thought you looked like you smoke the magic jig pipe. MagicJigPipe International Hazard Posts: 1554 Registered: 19-9-2007 Location: USA Member Is Offline Mood: Suspicious I don't think so Tim. I only smoke tobacco and I certainly don't look like a pothead. In fact, that day I was dressed up for an occasion, khakis and a button up shirt. Shaved, short hair and my speach is articulated. There is no reason they should have suspected me of drug use. Not that you can tell when someone uses drugs. Some of the most articulated, well dressed and trimmed people I know smoke cannabis. In fact, I prefer the company of people who smoke it over people who drink heavily or even socially. At least they are not violent and/or aggressively argumentative. BTW, my name has nothing to do with pipes used for smoking cannabis. [Edited on 13-1-2008 by MagicJigPipe] "There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer joeflsts Hazard to Others Posts: 226 Registered: 14-1-2006 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood  Quote: Originally posted by MagicJigPipe I would like to report that I went to buy a can of toluene today. As I approached the counter I noticed a newspaper article posted on the register. It seemed to be just your typical meth scare (pun intended a la Red Scare) mumbo jumbo with a picture of "household chemicals used to cook meth". I proceeded to the register and placed my item on the counter when I was greeted with "I need to see your ID please". I asked "Why?". While pointing to the article she said, "people use this to to make meth so from now on we're keeping track of who buys it". So, wanting to avoid suspicion and confrontation I handed over my ID. She took it, turned around and took it to a copy machine behind the counter and copied my ID! Without asking! Well, then I had to say something. I said, "What are you doing?". She replied with, "I have to make a copy of your ID so we can see how many ILLEGAL chemicals you are buying". Yes, she said illegal! Deciding to vent my disgust elsewhere, I informed them that I would not be shopping there anymore, completed the transaction and left. I can't believe this. That was the only store (that I know of) in my close proximity that still sold toluene. This is outrageous. I can't believe she actually thought the toluene was illegal! One other thing that happened to me a long time ago that I forgot to mention is when I called a pharmacy trying to buy some benzyl alcohol. The pharmacist said I would have to wait while he "called the board to make sure I can't make any drugs or explosives with it". I called him back a week later and he said I could buy it. Regardless, it's just stupid. Mass hysteria is what it is. I no longer consider this fear rational. I think you're giving an$8 per hour cleark more cedit than he/she deserves. Her concept of illegal / legal is probably not based on her understanding of why she's collecting your information. The collection of your information provides the store with cover in case you do get caught making meth using their products.

Joe

Joe
YT2095
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Im all for the idea of stocking up on chemicals that will become hard / impossible to buy in future, but I dont think its wise to stock up on chems that will be Illegal to Own.

I think its Vitally important to operate within the law when it comes to our Hobby/Lifestyle even though there is often a Big gap between what is Right and Just, and what the Law says.

I think Id rather work within the Law, than be in jail knowing I have the Moral High-ground!

of course that is just my Personal opinion.

\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
Bromide
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 Quote: Originally posted by YT2095 Im all for the idea of stocking up on chemicals that will become hard / impossible to buy in future, but I dont think its wise to stock up on chems that will be Illegal to Own. I think its Vitally important to operate within the law when it comes to our Hobby/Lifestyle even though there is often a Big gap between what is Right and Just, and what the Law says. I think Id rather work within the Law, than be in jail knowing I have the Moral High-ground! of course that is just my Personal opinion.

Of course, few disagree that it would be inconvenient (at the least) to expend time, effort and treasure in acquiring reagents, only for the stuff subsequently to be declared contraband.

Fortunately, it seems that criminal liability for the bare possession (excluding the sale or other acts of transferring possession) of certain forms of matter attaches only to a relatively limited set of controlled substances--usually, a two- or three-page list of psychoactive drugs in their completed form. Precursor reagents, on the other hand, are almost never illegal just to possess in and of themselves. To my knowledge, in fact, the sole exception to this general observation is phenylacetone, which is not itself a physiologically active drug yet, nonetheless, has been scheduled as a controlled substance in the USA.

Rather, the possession of precursor reagents becomes illicit when coupled with a corresponding criminal mens rea--such as, e.g., the intention to use such a reagent to manufacture a controlled substance without a priori government authorization. So unless the amateur chemist in question is acquiring a material that is in fact an active drug having characteristics likely to draw the attention of legislators, or he has an inclination to embark upon clearly criminal courses of conduct in the future, there seems little reason to worry with regard to this subject.
Alan
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Ill start worrying about it when i cant buy 50lb sacks of NH4NO3 for $20 MagicJigPipe International Hazard Posts: 1554 Registered: 19-9-2007 Location: USA Member Is Offline Mood: Suspicious Heh, intent can and is abused. I mean, intent can be just the fact that you possess other chemicals that could possibly be used in the manufacture of said compound. I think it would be a safe guess that most home chemists own the right chemicals for "intent" to stick simply because most of the chemicals used for production of drugs are so common and used for other things. I mean, who here doesn't have some iodine, acetone, toluene, benzyl chloride/cyanide, phosphorus, decongestant medication and/or the means to create anhydrous ammonia? I would be willing to bet that the only reason I was not charged with some drug crime when the cops searched my apartment (because of my roommate) a few years ago is because they wouldn't be able to prove whose stuff it was and because I was so nice and cooperative. At the time, all I had was a few solvents and I think a small vial of iodine. Even then they were trying to accuse me of making meth even though all their tests of my equipment came up negative. They even tried to trick my girlfriend at the time by telling her they found meth in the apt (I assume they did that thinking she would turn on me and start telling them stuff). She called their bluff though. Bastards. I could go on and on about the stuff they said and did to me but it just gets old. "There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer microcosmicus National Hazard Posts: 287 Registered: 31-12-2007 Member Is Offline Mood: spin up The fly in that ointment is "conspiracy to commit" laws. While the precursors might be legal to own individually, having a combination of reagents which could be used to manufacture a controlled substance can be construed as conspiracy to make it, whether or not there is evidence that one actually produced a micromole of the drug, much less sold it. As for mens rea, that is open to the interpretation of the court --- I don't think a competent lawyer would have a hard time convincing a jury of people like the clerk in MagicJigPipe's store that somebody with a garage full of flasks, condensers, and beakers and a stockpile of chemicals was obviously up to no good and that talk about home chemistry was a lame cover story because the days of the garage inventor are long gone and real science is obviously done in industrial and academic laboratories, not in kitchens. Sure, if Harry Homeowner happens to have a bottle of toluene and a stash of lithium batteries in the workshop, a drawerful of matches in the kitchen, some iodine and sinus pills in the medicine chest, the mens rea defense would work just fine because it is quite obvious that he is only using these products for their intended purposes even if he happens to stock a complete set of meth precursors. But if someone is routinely using household chemicals in ways completely removed from what their packages say to do experiments with them, the tables can turn --- one may expect an uphill battle convincing the average guy in the street, especially someone fed by sensationalist stories of bombs made from OTC materials and the like, that one's experiments are motivated purely by mens scientiae curiosa with no admixture of mens rea. What can also make cases of mistaken identity so tragic is that, logically enough, drug makers are a prime target for prosecution, ranking above dealers and users --- cut off the supply at the source and the middlemen and end-users will automatically be out of business. In the zeal to nab the big fish, nicities like mens rea can get pushed to the side. While it isn't exactly what we are discussing here, consider the case of Sam Zhadanov, the inventor who had the misfortune to have the perfume sample bottles he was producing in his factory be used as crack vials: http://www.reason.com/news/show/29676.html Never mind the fact that Mr. Zhadanov supplied the vials in good faith as perfume bottles not knowing what they were actually being used for. Never mind that banning vials is about as irrelevant as banning baking soda. Never mind that a professor of medicine testified that Zhadanov's inventions were used in his lab. Never mind the parade of character witnesses who should have cleared up any lingering doubts as to mens rea.. Some latter day Elliot Ness had to crack down on the crack vial kingpin, so the inventor went to jail and the factory was confiscated. To be sure, there were tax irregularities and marking American-made product as Chinese was questionable, but the drug paraphrenalia charges were trumped up out of proportion. For these reasons, I am wary of putting too much weight in the mens rea criterion without having solid evidence in hand that what I am doing is legitimate. I agree with YT2095 --- unlike the birdman of Alcatraz, I doubt there will be a lab in my jail cell. Sure, I will stock up on stuff like CFC's before they get completely phased out, but banned chemicals are another story. [Edited on 14-1-2008 by microcosmicus] joeflsts Hazard to Others Posts: 226 Registered: 14-1-2006 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood  Quote: Originally posted by MagicJigPipe Heh, intent can and is abused. I mean, intent can be just the fact that you possess other chemicals that could possibly be used in the manufacture of said compound. I think it would be a safe guess that most home chemists own the right chemicals for "intent" to stick simply because most of the chemicals used for production of drugs are so common and used for other things. I mean, who here doesn't have some iodine, acetone, toluene, benzyl chloride/cyanide, phosphorus, decongestant medication and/or the means to create anhydrous ammonia? I would be willing to bet that the only reason I was not charged with some drug crime when the cops searched my apartment (because of my roommate) a few years ago is because they wouldn't be able to prove whose stuff it was and because I was so nice and cooperative. At the time, all I had was a few solvents and I think a small vial of iodine. Even then they were trying to accuse me of making meth even though all their tests of my equipment came up negative. They even tried to trick my girlfriend at the time by telling her they found meth in the apt (I assume they did that thinking she would turn on me and start telling them stuff). She called their bluff though. Bastards. I could go on and on about the stuff they said and did to me but it just gets old. Why did they pick you out? Joe [Edited on 15-1-2008 by joeflsts] MagicJigPipe International Hazard Posts: 1554 Registered: 19-9-2007 Location: USA Member Is Offline Mood: Suspicious My roommate was a well known "pothead" (by the police because he went to high school with a few of them) to start out with. I was still packing my stuff 2 days after he moved out. I get home from work one night to discover that someone had broken in to the apartment. The doorknob just fell off and I walked in. All my stuff was "trashed" and I noticed that all my lab equipment (that was boxed up at the time) was out and had meth tests all in it and around it (negative of course). I even noticed (I think) a HI/Red P test and an MDMA test. Anyway, very suspicious, I decided to leave and go to the main office to see what was up (my girlfriend arrived about 20mins before). As I walked out the door I noticed two police cars pulling up so I thought "Ok, I'll just tell them what's going on". One of them got out as I was walking down the stairs and said, "are you Jake Blank?" I said, "Yes, and I'd like to know what's going on". Without saying another word she grabbed my arm and twisted it behind my back and threw me against the railing, cuffed me and took me to the back of the police car. Background info: A few months before this incident I was arrested by this cop for having a pistol in my car without a CCW. Before I was arrested I was threatened by her (she said she would "stick her Glock .40 in my mouth and pull the trigger if I didn't consent to the search") Well, needless to say, I reported her and pleaded coercement but nothing came of it because "her cruiser cam wasn't working at the time". She even told me personally that she was pissed that I "snitched on her". Continued: I sat in the back of the police car for 2 hours while they searched the apt. The male officer came back to the car, I asked him what I'm being charged with and he said, "we don't know yet". Eventually he got in the car and they took me to the station and put me in interrogation. The whole time I was asking about the charges and they kept ignoring me. To make a long story short I didn't know what I was charged with until I made bail the next morning. The charge was trespassing and possession of a controlled substance because the woman officer said that she didn't think my prescription was "what it says it is". Well, it turned out it was and the judge eventually dropped that. In the end they dropped the tresspassing for reasons I don't know but the whole process cost me nearly a thousand dollars and countless hours of my time. I am almost absolutely certain that if I had more chemicals than I did, I would be in a federal prison right now. The only reason I didn't have chemicals is because I wasn't experimenting the whole time I lived in the apt with my roommate. All my chemicals were elsewhere. I haven't been arrested for anything since (I got my CCW) but I am still afraid to go through that particular suburb. I used to fear for my life. I honestly thought that woman cop would kill me if she pulled me over again. My fear has subsided though. "There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer joeflsts Hazard to Others Posts: 226 Registered: 14-1-2006 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood  Quote: Originally posted by MagicJigPipe My roommate was a well known "pothead" (by the police because he went to high school with a few of them) to start out with. I was still packing my stuff 2 days after he moved out. I get home from work one night to discover that someone had broken in to the apartment. The doorknob just fell off and I walked in. All my stuff was "trashed" and I noticed that all my lab equipment (that was boxed up at the time) was out and had meth tests all in it and around it (negative of course). I even noticed (I think) a HI/Red P test and an MDMA test. Anyway, very suspicious, I decided to leave and go to the main office to see what was up (my girlfriend arrived about 20mins before). As I walked out the door I noticed two police cars pulling up so I thought "Ok, I'll just tell them what's going on". One of them got out as I was walking down the stairs and said, "are you Jake Blank?" I said, "Yes, and I'd like to know what's going on". Without saying another word she grabbed my arm and twisted it behind my back and threw me against the railing, cuffed me and took me to the back of the police car. Background info: A few months before this incident I was arrested by this cop for having a pistol in my car without a CCW. Before I was arrested I was threatened by her (she said she would "stick her Glock .40 in my mouth and pull the trigger if I didn't consent to the search") Well, needless to say, I reported her and pleaded coercement but nothing came of it because "her cruiser cam wasn't working at the time". She even told me personally that she was pissed that I "snitched on her". Continued: I sat in the back of the police car for 2 hours while they searched the apt. The male officer came back to the car, I asked him what I'm being charged with and he said, "we don't know yet". Eventually he got in the car and they took me to the station and put me in interrogation. The whole time I was asking about the charges and they kept ignoring me. To make a long story short I didn't know what I was charged with until I made bail the next morning. The charge was trespassing and possession of a controlled substance because the woman officer said that she didn't think my prescription was "what it says it is". Well, it turned out it was and the judge eventually dropped that. In the end they dropped the tresspassing for reasons I don't know but the whole process cost me nearly a thousand dollars and countless hours of my time. I am almost absolutely certain that if I had more chemicals than I did, I would be in a federal prison right now. The only reason I didn't have chemicals is because I wasn't experimenting the whole time I lived in the apt with my roommate. All my chemicals were elsewhere. I haven't been arrested for anything since (I got my CCW) but I am still afraid to go through that particular suburb. I used to fear for my life. I honestly thought that woman cop would kill me if she pulled me over again. My fear has subsided though. Interesting. So this all took place because you were ticketed for not having a CCW? Joe MagicJigPipe International Hazard Posts: 1554 Registered: 19-9-2007 Location: USA Member Is Offline Mood: Suspicious That's my theory. I know the cop was pissed about the complaint and that I was arrested without being charged and the charges were dropped by the prosecution/judge. Seems like she was on a vendetta. Also, since there is very little REAL crime (as in non-drug crime) in this suburb, the cops are always looking for something to do. I think this had something to do with the fact that the cops are bored there. I know they are notorious for arresting people for single cannabis seeds and whatnot. "There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer joeflsts Hazard to Others Posts: 226 Registered: 14-1-2006 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood  Quote: Originally posted by MagicJigPipe That's my theory. I know the cop was pissed about the complaint and that I was arrested without being charged and the charges were dropped by the prosecution/judge. Seems like she was on a vendetta. Also, since there is very little REAL crime (as in non-drug crime) in this suburb, the cops are always looking for something to do. I think this had something to do with the fact that the cops are bored there. I know they are notorious for arresting people for single cannabis seeds and whatnot. Is there a legal threshold in your part of the country for Cannibis seeds? I think much of what you think happened is very different from what actually happened. That is merely my opinion and no better or worse than yours I suspect. Joe MagicJigPipe International Hazard Posts: 1554 Registered: 19-9-2007 Location: USA Member Is Offline Mood: Suspicious No threshold. And what do you mean? Hardly any of my story is what I think happened. I know it happened. I know at least one person personally who was arrested because the cops found a half a seed in his pocket. It had been crushed and only half of it remained. He was charged with "Possession of 'Marijuana'". There has been much more anecdotal talk of people being arrested for "marijuana residue" which, apparently, is the resinous material that sublimes on car surfaces when it's smoked. It's just stupid. There is not threshold. Technically, one could be prosecuted for "possessing" one molecule of THC or 1 picogram of cannabis. EDIT I forgot this was in the Reagents subforum. I suppose we need to get back on topic. [Edited on 16-1-2008 by MagicJigPipe] "There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer joeflsts Hazard to Others Posts: 226 Registered: 14-1-2006 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood  Quote: Originally posted by MagicJigPipe No threshold. And what do you mean? Hardly any of my story is what I think happened. I know it happened. I know at least one person personally who was arrested because the cops found a half a seed in his pocket. It had been crushed and only half of it remained. He was charged with "Possession of 'Marijuana'". There has been much more anecdotal talk of people being arrested for "marijuana residue" which, apparently, is the resinous material that sublimes on car surfaces when it's smoked. It's just stupid. There is not threshold. Technically, one could be prosecuted for "possessing" one molecule of THC or 1 picogram of cannabis. EDIT I forgot this was in the Reagents subforum. I suppose we need to get back on topic. [Edited on 16-1-2008 by MagicJigPipe] No problem - and I meant nothing by it - I asked the threshold question because in this state possession of a seed is a crime and will continue to be that way until the law is changed. Joe MagicJigPipe International Hazard Posts: 1554 Registered: 19-9-2007 Location: USA Member Is Offline Mood: Suspicious I have noticed from anecdotal reports on this forum that a few types of chemicals seem to be getting harder to get. Most of them were listed when I first made this post. Nitrates (some kind of new bill) Toluene (at my solvent supplier toluene is now "restricted") Iodides (most people seem to think they will be regulated) I2 Tincture (pretty much gone in many areas of the US now) Potassium permanganate (still available OTC but new laws/regulations are being made apparently) If anyone else is having trouble with anything else, please post it here so it will be in one spot. Thanks. "There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer evil_lurker International Hazard Posts: 767 Registered: 12-3-2005 Location: United States of Elbonia Member Is Offline Mood: On the wagon again. Ammonium nitrate is not problem, I have access to approx 125+ tons of fertilizer grade at the moment @$400 per ton. Fuck, I could go swimming in it if I wanted to.

Urea same thing. Just go take a shovel to the bin.

KNO3, not a problem to order off the net, but the locals have never even heard of it.

Toluene, still plenty at Ace Hardware and Shermin Williams, but its dissappeared from Lowes, Wal-mart and Home Depot.

Iodides, yah you better stock up on these. May or may not be regulated, who knows. Probably will to some degree. I'd recommend getting several kg's if they could be found cheap.

Tincture is *poof* gone. Only thing available is those little tiny 1oz bottles of 2%.

Permanaganate is also hard to find. I have about 4Kg of technical grade so I'm not hurting.

Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in beer.
MagicJigPipe
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"Only thing available is those little tiny 1oz bottles of 2%."

Those are gone as well in my area.

"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
soxhlet
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The major supposition of this thread seems to be more driven of regulatory resentment than valid inference from fact.

Fact:
It is terribly costly for DEA to impose regulatory compliance upon listed chemicals. Consider anhydrous ammonia. The DEA could not begin to perform administrative audits of the tens of thousands of suppliers. They will only target very specific chemicals which have little if any use outside of business and research. (Or, the existing home use is so small as to be eliminated from cost increases that occur registration and addition administrative overhead).

Fact:
A new category of regulated chemical was established to control pseudoephedrine. This new category encompasses over-the-counter medicines which contain listed chemicals.

Fact:
Most recently, a change in verbiage has been observed in DEA submissions to The Federal Registry. DEA is now making some distinction between immediate precursors and those other chemicals whose use is peripheral.

This leads me to believe that efforts to eliminate drug manufacture will become more intensely focused upon those immediate substances such as ephedrine, benzyl methyl ketone, safrole, etc.

Someone, maybe joe, made a profound statement albeit in a different thread. “If you want to obtain regulated materials, simply comply with the protocols”. The regulations are not intended to discriminate between professional and amateur demand for chemicals. DEA doesn’t make any distinction between professional and amateur drug makers.
MagicJigPipe
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"The major supposition of this thread seems to be more driven of regulatory resentment than valid inference from fact."

Bullshit. This thread was made because of DIRECT observations by myself and others that many chemicals are becoming harder or impossible to obtain. This has almost nothing to do with listed chemicals as they are already virtually impossible to obtain.

Unfortunately, the DEA or DHS don't have to create new regulations or impose new restrictions to take certain chemicals out of the hands of ordinary citizens. They utilize threats and propaganda so that companies decide "on their own" to restrict them.

Why is it that there are hundreds of non-regulated chemicals that are difficult to obtain? It's not illegal or even technically suspicious to sell 5 gallons of toluene to an individual yet a local supplier in my area will not do it. Same with ammonium nitrate and iodine tincture.

"They" don't have to do anything but spit propaganda to make de facto regulation.

If you don't see it happening you are blind. And, IMO, if you don't act now you will regret it. That is, if you are interested in home chemistry.

EDIT
I would like to point out that 2 of the 4 things that I put stars next to in the first post have since become impossible to obtain locally "OTC".

Iodine tincture
Ammonium nitrate cold packs

I suppose I have no idea what I'm talking about and I'm just paranoid, though. That's fine. I will have these chemicals when they "disappear" and some others will not.

I will stop trying to convince people now.

[Edited on 4-13-2008 by MagicJigPipe]

"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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