Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Ethyl Perchlorate

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Formatik - 4-1-2009 at 23:53

Quote:
Originally posted by -=HeX=- Would a H2SO4 (w/ SO3) and 70% HClO4 mix work instead of 100% HClO4?


There might have been a good reason why they used the harder to obtain and handle anhydrous HClO4, than a HClO4/H2SO4 system. Maybe the esters are incompatible with that acid? Adding to the posts above, SO3 and anhydrous HClO4 are said to exotherm (explode) despite diluents, so oleum might be a bad idea.

-=HeX=- - 5-1-2009 at 06:34

Well, no way to find out but to try. I am on a break from renovating the lab, today I was selling scrap steel (2 metric tonnes) to a scrapyard and am too tired to bother renovating. I will try on test tube scale first, and video it :) however it could be easter or summer by the time I get to try, with school, tests and spending all my money on an airsoft gun so no money for chemicals at the moment. I can get 70% HClO4 easily enough, so maybe I distill the stuff maybe.

I worked out that even azides of the compoudfs could, in theory, be formed, so a gas mask is needed for the HN3 because death is not THAT exciting :P and I am not some emo punk who wants to be horribly disfigured. Im innocent http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/images/smilies/shocked.gi... (looks like wide, staring eyes) I am being oh so careful because I know exactly how hard being blown apart hurts.

Formatik - 5-1-2009 at 16:57

With something like HN3 I would be more worried about it blowing up, that compound is so dangerous it might seem to someone that it explodes for no reason at all. HN3 explodes from the slightest vibrations, things like a rising gas bubble in the boiling liquid which contacts sharply-edged glass will create enough friction to detonate it. Even its aq. solutions are explosive. And when HN3 which is 97.6% nitrogen, goes, it detonates with utmost violence and a blue light. 0.05 g of HN3 is known to be enough to vaporize glass apparatuses. 0.7g is enough to blow nearby glass vessels to pieces due to the pressure generated. Curtius was quadruple distilling to get concentrations like 91% but he circumvented what makes it tick.

ethy perchlorate

The WiZard is In - 3-4-2010 at 13:22



Attachment: Chem Ethyl perchlorate.txt (10kB)
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Formatik - 3-4-2010 at 23:50

Roscoe description of EtClO4 is also in Ann. 124, 124.

Quote:
... in explosive violence, it is not surpassed by any substance known in chemistry


That was until ozobenzene (C6H6O9): Ann. 170 [1873], 123: "The explosion of only several decigrams of this substance cause such an air vibration, so that the windows of the room are infallibly shattered. It is therefore dangerous to handle, and one may for such experiments use not more than 3 to 5 milligrams."

The WiZard is In - 4-4-2010 at 06:21

Putting aside that "power of explosives" had a definite meaning,
no sense in letting it stop up from having fun...

Attachment: Explosive Azoimide.txt (2kB)
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most powerful explosive

The WiZard is In - 4-4-2010 at 06:26

SAYS NAZIS USE ATOMITE
Californian Asserts Explosive Was Invented by Coast Men
The New York Times. October 25, 1939

SAN DIEGO, Calif., Oct. 24 (UP) —Milton T. Vanderslice, California Park Commissioner, said today "there was virtually positive proof" that Germany is accomplishing tremendous destruction in her aerial bombings with an explosive invented In the United States.
The explosive is atomite, a third again more potent than TNT, was invented by "two men In Berkeley named Hauck and cCloud" five years ago and offered to the United States Army at the time, he asserted. He was fiscal agent for the inventors at that time, he said, and the formula was patented in several countries, including Germany.
"There is virtually positive proof that Germany used this explosive in the destruction of Warsaw and Polish military airdromes and depots," Mr. Vanderslice declared, "for we know there is no bomb now in use by European armies that literally can slice through and crumble huge concrete and steel buildings, except the atomite projectiles which the Nazis have been using for two years.
He said the explosive was used with "telling effect" in Spain.

-------
Anyone want to buy a bridge?




"Atomite"

JohnWW - 4-4-2010 at 08:24

"Atomite"? I looked that name upon Google, and found that it refers to one of two substances:
(a) Finely divided CaCO3, or chalk powder, noted for its opacity and whiteness, see e.g. http://www.chemindustry.com/chemicals/0300405.html and http://www.imerys-perfmins.com/usa/ProductDetail.asp?PID=304 ; and
(b) the glassy light-green substance, also called Trinitite, that was formed on the desert floor, from sand consisting mostly of silica and feldspar (microcline and plagioclase) derived from granite, at Alamogordo, N.M.,, which was the site of the "Trinity" test site where the first plutonium-based atomic bomb was tested on 16th July 1945; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinitite . The stuff, now a collectors' item, is still radioactive, but not dangerously so, due to long-lived radio-isotopes formed by the fission of plutonium. The light green color is probably due to ferrous iron, from hornblende and magnetite in the granite-derived sand.

Neither of these "atomites" have ANY explosive properties. None of the Google results refer to any explosive of that name, which may have been an explosive used in aerial bombs and artillery shells made in Germany, and used in the late 1930s by the Fa$cists in the Spanish Civil War (probably including the bombing of Guernica in 1937) and by the Nazis in the opening actions of World War 2. (I wonder if the same stuff might also have been used by the Japanese when they went to war against China in 1937, and later from 1941 at Pearl Harbor and subsequently).

If there really was an high explosive called "atomite", and it was patented in several countries including the U$A and Germany around 1934, being offered to the U$ Army (it is not clear whether they bought the stuff), what are the patent numbers?

By the way, if it was so dangerously explosive, I am rather surprised that it was patented at all, and not kept as a "trade secret". Or if it was patented in 1934, that it was allowed to be patented outside the U$A, including in potential enemy countries like Nazi Germany, and that the U$ patent was allowed to be publicly disclosed, for national security reasons.

[Edited on 4-4-10 by JohnWW]

The WiZard is In - 4-4-2010 at 09:57

Like i said - "Anyone want to buy a bridge?" Da Brooklyn Bridge.

The German bombing of the Spanish city of (look up its name) was the
first large bombing of a city in history. Granted the Bosch bombed London with
Dirigibles in WW I. So no one had any experience in such matters, therefore,
people let their imaginations run free searching for an explanation of
the damage. I am surprised they didn't start a new religion.


The bourgeoisie of the whole world, which looks complacently
upon the wholesale massacre after the battle, is convulsed
by horror at the desecration of brick and mortar.
Karl Marx

Formatik - 4-4-2010 at 10:12

There is Popular Mechanics articles from around 1928 calling it radium atomite. The Royal Engineers Journal from 1929 says it has a claimed VOD of 3270m/s, which isn't much. The material probably develops a very high reaction enthalpy, like mixes of aluminium dust with HEs.

franklyn - 4-4-2010 at 11:00

Due to characteristic sensitivity , alkyl perchlorates are only of academic interest.
Organic Perchlorate salts are another matter.
Ethylenediamine diperchlorate discussed here is a better use of perchloric acid.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=13174#...

Guanidine Perchlorate is about equal with picric acid.
It's sensitivity is halway between it and PETN.

.

The WiZard is In - 4-4-2010 at 13:01

Radium containing green powder "Atomite" pops-up in
Popular Science August and September 1928 and
Popular Mechanics September 1928.

You can read them at Google.com/books.


---------
"It is essential that persons having explosive
substances under their charge should never
lose sight of the conviction that, preventive
measures should always be prescribed
on the hypothesis of an explosion."

chief - 5-4-2010 at 01:20

The name of the bombed spanish city must have besn "Guernica" ...; Picasso painted it, Hitler saw it and asked Picasso: "Have you done this ?" and Picasso answered: "No, you" ... ; famous and known occasion ...

chief - 5-4-2010 at 08:04

Should it help anyone: A search for ethyl and chlorate in the chemical name yielded the following:

+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+------------------------------------------------------------------------- -+
| chem_name | authors_text |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+------------------------------------------------------------------------- -+
| Tetramethylammonium chlorate(VII) | Palacios, E.; Burriel, R.; Ferloni, P. |
| Tetramethylammonium chlorate(VII) | Palacios, E.; Burriel, R.; Ferloni, P. |
| Tetramethylammonium chlorate(VII) | Palacios, E.; Burriel, R.; Ferloni, P. |
| Tetramethylammonium chlorate(VII) | Palacios, E.; Burriel, R.; Ferloni, P. |
| N,N-(dimethylthiourea)gold(I) perchlorate | Staples, R.J.;Fackler, J.P.Jr.;Costamagna, J.A. |
| Hexakis(N,N-dimethylformamide)aluminium perchlorate | Suzuki, H.;Ishiguro, S.I. |
| Hexakis(N,N-dimethylformamide)-nickel diperchlorate | McKee, V.;Metcalfe, T.;Wikaira, J. |
| Bis(N,N-dimethylthiourea)silver perchlorate | Pakawatchai, C.;Sivakumar, K.;Fun, H.-K. |
| Tris(N,N-dimethylthiourea)silver perchlorate | Pakawatchai, C.;Sivakumar, K.;Fun, H.-K. |
| Tetrakis(dimethylsulphoxide-O)copper bis(perchlorate) | Blake, A.J.;Grimditch, R.S.;Parsons, S.;Schroeder, M. |
| cis-Dimethyl-bis(trimethylphosphine)gold(III) perchlorate dichloromethane | Schuster, O.;Schmidbaur, H. |
| Hexakis(hexamethylphosphortriamido)neodymium tris(chlorate(VII)) | Galdecka, E.;Galdecki, Z.;Huskowska, E.;Amirkhanov, V.;Legendziewicz, J. |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+------------------------------------------------------------------------- -+

chief - 5-4-2010 at 08:05

Besides: Ever haered about "oxonium chlorate" ?
+---------------------------------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+
| chem_name | authors_text |
+---------------------------------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+
| Oxonium chlorate(VII) | Truter, M.R. |
| Oxonium chlorate(VII) | Lee, F.S.;Carpenter, G.B. |
| Oxonium chlorate(VII) | Nordman, C.E. |
| Oxonium Nitro Diperchlorate | Herzog-Cance, M.H.;Belin, C.;Herzog, J.F. |
| Oxonium chlorate(VII) | Rahman, A.A.;Usman, A.;Chantrapromma, S.;Fun, H.-K. |
| Oxonium chlorate(VII) | Rahman, A.A.;Usman, A.;Chantrapromma, S.;Fun, H.-K. |
| Oxonium pentaaquacopper tris(chlorate(VII)) | Bramsen, F.; Bond, A.D.; McKenzie, C.J. |
+---------------------------------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+

chief - 5-4-2010 at 08:25

Here again with references ...; probably everyone know, what the abbreviations mean ...

+--------+---------+--------+--------+------+------------+-----------+-------+------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---+
| IDNUM | REF_SEQ | CODEN | VOLUME | YEAR | PAGE_FIRST | PAGE_LAST | ISSUE | chem_name |
+--------+---------+--------+--------+------+------------+-----------+-------+------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---+
| 74075 | 1 | ASBSDK | 59 | 2003 | 625 | 633 | NULL | Tetramethylammonium chlorate(VII) |
| 74076 | 1 | ASBSDK | 59 | 2003 | 625 | 633 | NULL | Tetramethylammonium chlorate(VII) |
| 74077 | 1 | ASBSDK | 59 | 2003 | 625 | 633 | NULL | Tetramethylammonium chlorate(VII) |
| 74078 | 1 | ASBSDK | 59 | 2003 | 625 | 633 | NULL | Tetramethylammonium chlorate(VII) |
| 201258 | 1 | ACSCEE | 53 | 1997 | 1555 | 1558 | NULL | N,N-(dimethylthiourea)gold(I) perchlorate |
| 201274 | 1 | ACSCEE | 54 | 1998 | 586 | 588 | NULL | Hexakis(N,N-dimethylformamide)aluminium perchlorate |
| 201347 | 1 | ACSCEE | 52 | 1996 | 1139 | 1141 | NULL | Hexakis(N,N-dimethylformamide)-nickel diperchlorate |
| 201377 | 1 | ACSCEE | 52 | 1996 | 1954 | 1957 | NULL | Bis(N,N-dimethylthiourea)silver perchlorate |
| 201378 | 1 | ACSCEE | 52 | 1996 | 1954 | 1957 | NULL | Tris(N,N-dimethylthiourea)silver perchlorate |
| 201381 | 1 | ACSCEE | 52 | 1996 | 514 | 516 | NULL | Tetrakis(dimethylsulphoxide-O)copper bis(perchlorate) |
| 204224 | 1 | ZNBSEN | 61 | 2006 | 1 | 5 | 1 | cis-Dimethyl-bis(trimethylphosphine)gold(III) perchlorate dichloromethane |
| 801659 | 1 | JALCEU | 257 | 1997 | 182 | 190 | NULL | Hexakis(hexamethylphosphortriamido)neodymium tris(chlorate(VII)) |
+--------+---------+--------+--------+------+------------+-----------+-------+------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---+

Formatik - 5-4-2010 at 12:33

Try not to quadruple post. All of those compounds are not organic esters, they're mainly salts of organic bases and complexes.

Roscoe speaking of EtClO4 from the Ann. ref: "about 0.2 grams of the ether, which is in a very thin test tube, exploded with such violence, so that a hole of 15 millimeters in diameter and 5 millimeters depth on a filter stand of wood resulted, and all glass vessels in the neighboring area were broken. One must therefore when working with this compound be extremely careful; gloves, glass sheets are necessary."

chief - 6-4-2010 at 02:24

Yes; but maybe the literature-references lead somewhere ...
==> If I were on the subject I would walk uo to the library and check each of these references, for some hint always might be there ...

chief - 6-4-2010 at 05:32

Just quoting myself from the other thread ( https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=13... ):
==> Maybe this is possible for the esters of chloric acid too ??

====================
In The Urbanski, on page 19, there is mentioned "electrolytic nitration", Atanasiu and Berthelot, 1937/1937 ..

It's done from diluted HNO3, which is concentrated in the anode-space, where the nitration takes place ...
Storng oxydizing processes go on at the same time in this anodic space ...

====================

Formatik - 6-4-2010 at 20:05

No simple chlorate esters have ever been characterized or isolated. There are theoretical studies (e.g. on methyl chlorate).
Stettbacher estimated glycerin trichlorate would develop 3000cal/g compared to 1580cal/g (heat of combustion) for the
trinitrate ester. The material also isn't known.

The WiZard is In - 13-4-2010 at 16:35

Joseph Schumacher
Perchlorates: Their Properties, Manufacture and Uses.
1960

P. 214

Of ethyl perchlorate, prepared as long ago as 1841 by Hare and
Boyle, its synthesizers said, "in explosive violence it is not
suspassed by any substance know to chemistry." Although
this claim is somewhat out of date, [60].....

[60] Lothrop, W.C. and Handrick, G. R. Chem. Rev., 44, 419, 415-45 (1949)

One would be curious to know that L and H found to be more
explosively violent.

By da a Lead Block test value is a much better measure of
an explosives power than it detonation velocity.

Melvin Cook
The Science of High Explosives
1958
P. 271

L & H employed Trauzl-block data from a number of sources
(without regard to quality) for a large number of explosives
in their intersting correlation of power and brisance with
oxygen balance.


Formatik - 14-4-2010 at 22:57

We can at least say EtClO4 is still among the most violent. It takes a very brisant material to just blow a hole through a metal spoon at those amounts. If they are less brisant, then nitrate esters should not do the same.

Modern testing of performance like the lead block test has been mostly abandoned from the looks of it, and researchers nowadays just crank out computations to see if an energetic is worthwhile.

a_bab - 18-4-2010 at 23:10

It would be interesting to do some tests, but I know for sure NG can't do that, and I highly doubt RDX can do it in the given amounts (putting a hole in a spoon, that is). It would be easy to imagine a test to avoid low order ddn for NG (heating the spoon till it goes off won't give you all the NG's juice). A small amount of a good primary on the top of the test 'micro' charge, touched with a glowing ember... I dunno.

When I first saw the pic I couldn't believe it. EtClO4 is something surely gives you a punch!

Anders Hoveland - 19-6-2010 at 19:19

I once prepared nitromethylene perchlorate, by using AgClO4 dissolved in toluene and adding iodine and CH3NO2. The AgClO4 could not be dried so I had to resort to anyhydrous Ag-Acetate and pure HClO4 dissolved in excess acetic acid. I am not sure how the reaction takes place, but I believe there might be an intermediate IOClO3 forming, or possibly the action of I(ClO4)3 attacks the CH3NO2. Unable to isolate the nitromethylene perchlorate though. As the toluene was allowed to evaporate, there was inevitably explosions. It made an interesting chemical time bomb though.

Anders Hoveland - 1-7-2010 at 18:05

Just made propyl perchlorate! Bromine vapor was allowed to react in propane gas in the presence of sunlight for two periods of six hours on consecutive days. A glass gallon jug was used. A tiny ammount of bromopropane was left at the bottom. Most of the bromine had reacted, as evidenced by the liquid collected being flammable. The bromopropane was extremely volatile. It appeared to be entirely a gas when heated by sunlight. An icebath was used to make it more workable. Bromopropane is expected to be extremely toxic, and highly irritating. Swim goggles and a makeshift respiratory filter were used. All handling was done inside a giant clear plastic bag, with gloves ducktaped into holes in the bag for handling. The bromopropane reacted with anhydrous AgClO4 in toluene, making propyl perchlorate in toluene solution. The toluene was allowed to evaporate off in the shade. A clear, somewhat opaque white liquid was left behind. This exploded violently when ignited. Obviously, not all the toluene had evaporated since the explosion was not as powerful as the ethyl perchlorate described in this topic.

-=HeX=- - 9-7-2010 at 09:17

Anders: VERY interesting.
I had prepared 'some' Ethyl Perchlorate recently, and found a rather novel use for it.

Basically, I tested it as a filler in a micro-shaped charge, and it worked rather well. The cone was a .223 bullet jacket, and the charge was rather tiny, tamped with corn starch/water. Initiation via EBW. 1cm standoff.

The charge neatly preforated the 1/8" target plate, proving to me that indeed, Ethyl Perchlorate is decent enough to form a jet. Too bad it is so fucking sensitive.

Anders Hoveland - 10-7-2010 at 15:17

The organic ester perchlorates are very sensitive because there is no extra electron resonating around in the oxygens (as in the perchlorate ion) to stabilize it. The --NHClO3 group should theoretically be more stable, --NH(+)=ClO3(-), but it is still extremely sensitive. Perhaps having a --N=ClO3(-) group and another --NH3(+) group on the same molecule would allow the incorporation of perchlorate without it being nearly so sensitive.
In my opinion a --C(NO2)3 group is pretty powerful (though not quite as much as --OClO3) and much more stable. Or consider
--NH2(+)OH ClO4(-) as a far more stable alternative if a perchlorate compound if wanted. Do not underestimate the nitro group. Remember, C(NO2)4 forms very powerful expl. mixtures with other alkanes.

Blaster - 13-7-2010 at 00:36

Hi to everyone. After a long time away I'm back.
I'm not missing any fingers or anything, ha ha!

Great to see this thread is still alive 7 years on.

I drifted away from Chemistry and additionally I changed ISP yet again to one which did not provide webspace, so my Perchloric Ester website disappeared for a year or so.
After some U2U requests I've just re-instated it with some difficulty. It was written a long time ago on MS Frontpage but I've retained its original layout.
I don't seem to be able to edit my earlier posts to change the link, but here is the new one:

http://www.cdodgyd.heliohost.org/perchloric/perchloric.htm

[Edited on 13-7-2010 by Blaster]

Formatik - 13-7-2010 at 09:32

Thanks for uploading those links again.

Rosco Bodine - 2-8-2010 at 22:36

Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In  
Joseph Schumacher
Perchlorates: Their Properties, Manufacture and Uses.
1960


Here's a download link for the pdf of the 1960 ACS monograph on perchlorates by Shumacher

http://www.archive.org/download/pwechloratesthei001740mbp/pw...

Creatinine Perchlorate, (urinary perchlorate) is something I have been trying to find referenced anything concerning the energetic properties, but am having no luck at all ....
piss on it ;)

[Edited on 3-8-2010 by Rosco Bodine]

franklyn - 3-8-2010 at 08:34

Quote: Originally posted by Formatik  
No simple chlorate esters have ever been characterized or isolated. There are theoretical studies
(e.g. on methyl chlorate). Stettbacher estimated glycerin trichlorate would develop 3000cal/g
compared to 1580cal/g (heat of combustion) for the trinitrate ester. The material also isn't known.

Given the properties described in the Ethyl Perchlorate references cited by Blaster
http://www.cdodgyd.heliohost.org/perchloric/hb3.jpg
" It explodes by ignition , friction , or percussion , and
sometimes without any assignable cause."
an even more sensitive chlorate would be impractical even as a lab excercise.

This is not to say that a usable explosive composition could not be made ,
by applying the means for synthesis without obtaining the product itself.
http://www.cdodgyd.heliohost.org/perchloric/ms5.jpg
" The ester was also obtained by adding 0.1 g of anhydrous
Silver Perchlorate to 4 cc of pure Ethylbromide."
" precipitating Potassium Perchlorate when reacted with KOH "

I previously noted explosive compositions based on double decomposition of reactants
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=5777#p...
A mixture of FH2CCH2F + 2 KClO3 => 2 KF + 2 CO2 + 2 H2O + Cl2
approximates an explosion of the hypothetical chlorate ester
Ethyleneglycol dichlorate (ClO3)CH2-CH2(ClO3)
heat of formation of 1,2-difluoroethane given here _
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/j100321a007

convert calories to joules , 4.186(- 102 ) = - 427 kJ / mol

. . 66 gm . . 2( 123.5 ) gm
FH2CCH2F + 2 KClO3 => 2 KF + 2 CO2 + 2 H2O + Cl2
. .- 427 . . . . . 2(- 398 ) . 2(- 567) + 2(- 394) + 2(- 242)

Subtracting enthalpies of reactants from products of explosion

- 2406 - (- 1223) = - 1183 kJ ∆He Heat of explosion

convert joules to calories , 1183 / 4.186 = 283 kcal

Dividing the ∆He Heat of explosion of the balanced equation by the molar weight
of the reactants (- 283 / 313 ) X 1000
obtains ∆He Heat of explosion = - 9 0 4 Kcal per kilogram of mixture

.
FCH2CH2F.gif - 39kB

" estimated glycerin trichlorate would develop 3000cal/g "
must be highly endothermic to rate so high , Aluminum
and Dinitrogen Tetroxide will yield 3225 cal/g
.

[Edited on 4-8-2010 by franklyn]

quicksilver - 4-8-2010 at 11:10

In the famous "spoon shot", does anyone know how Blaster initiated the drop of Ethyl Perchlorate?

Blaster - 5-8-2010 at 07:36

Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver  
In the famous "spoon shot", does anyone know how Blaster initiated the drop of Ethyl Perchlorate?


I'll tell you myself - I held it above a flame briefly. The esters are extemely sensitive and I now consider myself lucky I suffered no unexpected explosions (as the pioneers did back in the mists of time).
My overriding memory of the stuff is the sheer violence of its detonation. I was really taken aback despite having handled such compounds as NCl3 and nitroglycerin previously. It just doesn't seem possible that such tiny quantities could cause such a blast; not to mention the noise - I had ringing in the ears even with defenders on.

BTW, heliohost seem to be pretty unreliable. The site keeps going down. I may have to change again but I'll keep you informed naturally.

quicksilver - 5-8-2010 at 14:05

Frankly I didn't know you still dropped by. I apologize for not making that a direct question.
Jeez....what a scary thing. I know you had all sorts of stuff on and it was only in the ml range, but... it's some scary stuff.
I can't remember if I have seen another "through & through" puncture from a sub-gram level materiel.....

Yea, I went to the site because it DID come up before. - I may just get some space for free that I was going to put up an FTP but if Madhatter still has his I'm certainly not going to duplicate efforts. How much space are you looking for? I was thinking of putting up a page with about 1Gb of firearms refinishing and simple repair; which would leave me a least 2-3 Gb (if I can get it for free - because I don't want to pay for it in an era where a few Gb are generally free anyway). Supposedly a friend's son can get me 5Gb for free for 18months.

PM me if you haven't found a good deal.



[Edited on 5-8-2010 by quicksilver]

AndersHoveland - 26-11-2011 at 21:41


Quote:

the perchlorate ester of hexene was prepared... by reacting iodine trichloride with acetic anhydride, with the subsequent addition of aqueous perchloric acid and hexene.


Iodine trichloride actually exists as a dimer, I2Cl6, which is a dull orange solid melting at 63 °C. It is formed by simple reaction of solid iodine and chlorine gas.

"Hexene" typically refers to 1-hexene, with the structure
CH2=CH-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH3

the "perchlorate ester of hexene" must be hexene-1,2-diperchlorate. No doubt ethylene gas could be used instead of hexene, but it is doubtful that the resulting ethyl diperchlorate would be stable enough to isolate from solution.

Quote:

the reaction of ethylene oxide with [nitronium tetrafluoroborate] NO2BF4 and [lithium perchlorate] LiClO4 in ethyl acetate at 0-5°C gave quantitatively 2-nitratoethyl perchlorate as a single product.

Kunglig Svenska vetenskapsakademien

The structure of 2-nitratoethyl perchlorate would be
O2N-O-CH2-CH2-O-ClO3

PHILOU Zrealone - 28-11-2011 at 14:51

Just a thought...has someone here some info about tert-butyl perchlorate?

Here are ideas I have for years now in mind...
I know that hypochlorous esters of primary and secondary alcohols undergo the following reaction in an explosive maner: yielding aldehyds and ketons...
R-CH2-O-Cl --> R-CH=O + HCl
R-CH(-O-Cl)-R--> R2C=O + HCl

but ternary alcohol allow better stability of the hypochlorous ester...tertiobutyl hypochlorite is known and useful reactant in some organic reactions...
So R3C-OCl is much stabler than R2CH-OCl and R-CH2-OCl!
The oxydability (lability) of the hydrogen atom on the carbon holding the O-Cl seems to be the problem.

From there I think that perchloric esters must have the same kind of stability problems...with as extra trouble the generation of concentrated HClO3 in an oxydable environment what is as everybody knows very bad news...
R-CH2-O-ClO3 --> R-CH=O + HClO3
R-CH(-O-ClO3)-R--> R2C=O + HClO3
Maybe tertiary alcohol would help entrap the power of perchloric esters in a safer way...

I have the idea that (CH3)3C-OClO3 must be a first step...trial
then pinacol diperchlorate O3ClO-C(CH3)2-C(CH3)2-OClO3 what must be denser and must display a better OB, thus be more powerful...
Keep in mind that pinacol is unstable in acidic media and suffers transposition...so direct esterification is a no go!

Maybe substitution of t-butyl chloride or pinacoldichloride with Ag-OClO3 in an adequate solvent to prevent elimination what is a strong competitive reaction of tertiary alcools...
Addition of HOClO3 on (CH3)2C=CH2 might be a solution for the first step!

If you ever attempt any perchloric ester...beware that it is always a serious risk...so never make it in big quantities...keep it small (<2g) and far form any glasware, metalware or hard plasticware...

[Edited on 28-11-2011 by PHILOU Zrealone]

AndersHoveland - 29-11-2011 at 10:49

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  

but ternary alcohol allow better stability of the hypochlorous ester. I think that perchloric esters must have the same kind of stability problems. Maybe tertiary alcohol would help entrap the power of perchloric esters in a safer way...


Interesting theory, you might be on to a good idea. However, the reasons for instability of perchlorate esters may likely be different from hypochlorite esters. Perchlorate groups are often much less oxidizing than hypochlorite. Other than the fact that perchlorate esters are alkylating agents (significantly more so than the nitrate esters), there does not seem to be any literature about the specific chemistry. The fact that perchlorate esters even exist shows that, despite alkyl groups being less electropositive, the perchlorate group is rendered much less reactive than >72% conc HClO4, which is known to attack alkanes. Also, chemical stability is different from sensitivity, although there is some overlap.

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  

I have the idea that (CH3)3C-OClO3 must be a first step...trial
then pinacol diperchlorate O3ClO-C(CH3)2-C(CH3)2-OClO3 what must be denser and must display a better OB, thus be more powerful...


Another exotic thought would be a perchlorate ester of cubane, with only two perchlorate groups at opposite corners.

PHILOU Zrealone - 29-11-2011 at 12:04

Anders Hoveland wrote:
"Another exotic thought would be a perchlorate ester of cubane, with only two perchlorate groups at opposite corners. "

Yes that's it such corners if they hold alcohol would be ternary alcohols...

The best would be cubane-tetrole-tetraperchlorate...with a perfect OB!
C8H4(OClO3)4 --> 8CO2(g) + 4HCl(g)

For the rest about nine post ago, in the last post of Rosco in this tread, there is a link to a very interesting document about perchlorate by Schumacher.
On page 63 (79 on 280) they speak about the reaction of perchloryl fluoride with ammonia (liquid or diluted)
F-ClO3 + NH3 --> NH4F + NH4NHClO3 (ammonium perchlorylamide)
They also mention K2N-ClO3 and KNH-ClO3

It is very interesting because those are brothers of nitramides and one might expect that if ammonia is replaced by organic amines then it is an open door to nitramineslike perchloryl compounds
With CH3-NH2 --> CH3-NH2.CH3-NH-ClO3 --> CH3-NH-ClO3
With H2N-CH2-CH2-NH2 --> H2N-CH2-CH2-NH2.O3Cl-NH-CH2-CH2-NH-ClO3 --> O3Cl-NH-CH2-CH2-NH-ClO3
With (CH3)2NH --> (CH3)2N-ClO3

Maybe by interaction of NH4NH-ClO3 (NH3.NH2-ClO3) with CH2=O a triperchloryl variant of RDX (-CH2-N(-ClO3)-)3 would result? Just as NH2-NO2 by reacting with CH2=O yields RDX...



Adas - 29-11-2011 at 12:23

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  


Maybe by interaction of NH4NH-ClO3 (NH3.NH2-ClO3) with CH2=O a triperchloryl variant of RDX (-CH2-N(-ClO3)-)3 would result? Just as NH2-NO2 by reacting with CH2=O yields RDX...


What an interesting idea. Shame, that org. perchlorates are so unstable :(

PHILOU Zrealone - 29-11-2011 at 14:12

Quote: Originally posted by Adas  
Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  


Maybe by interaction of NH4NH-ClO3 (NH3.NH2-ClO3) with CH2=O a triperchloryl variant of RDX (-CH2-N(-ClO3)-)3 would result? Just as NH2-NO2 by reacting with CH2=O yields RDX...


What an interesting idea. Shame, that org. perchlorates are so unstable :(


Maybe not all organic perchlorates and that is the point to elucidate here...note that they mention (in the same document) that K2N-ClO3, when dry, to be highly explosive, sensitive to flame, friction and shock and ...
melting above 300°C what is quite a high temperature for a sensitive compound...

[Edited on 29-11-2011 by PHILOU Zrealone]

Rosco Bodine - 29-11-2011 at 14:32

Not all organic perchlorates are unstable like the esters. It could be interesting to see what are the properties of a mixture of organic amine perchlorates which are relatively stable and nonhygroscopic, particularly to see if any ternary or quaternary eutectics have low melting points. Some candidate materials for such mixtures would be guanidine perchlorate, methylamine perchlorate, trimethylamine perchlorate, tetramethylammonium perchlorate, betaine perchlorate, choline perchlorate and choline nitratoperchlorate. There are others but these few first come to mind. Hygroscopic perchlorates like urea perchlorate and possibly glycine perchlorate and dimethylamine perchlorate could make powerful aqueous or alcohol based OB slurries with ammonium perchlorate which could be interesting compositions.

perchlorylamide

AndersHoveland - 29-11-2011 at 15:16

With ammonia, FClO3 forms a perchlorylamide: FClO3 + NH3 = ClO3(NH2) + HF. This has acidic protons and they are replaceable by metal ions: K[ClO3(NH)] and K2[ClO3N] these are colorless, up to 300 C stable compounds, which explode by impact.

Perchloryl fluoride (ClO3F) reacts with aqueous or liquid anhydrous NH3 to form a mixture of NH4F and NH4NHClO3. Ammonolysis of ClO3F in liquid NH3 is greatly accelerated by traces of NaNH2 (base catalysis).

From an aqueous solution of NH4F + NH4NHClO3, concentrated aqueous or alcoholic solutions of caesium or potassium hydroxides precipitate salts of the types K2NClO3 and KNHClO3. These salts are highly explosive, and when dry are very sensitive to flame, shock and friction.


Information about ClO3F
Perchloryl fluoride (FClO3) is very stable, poisonous and reactive (Bp. -46.7C, Mp. -147.7C). Electrolysis of saturated NaClO4 in anhydrous HF yields the compound. Another way in 85-90% yield, is to warm a mixture of KClO4, HF and SbF5 at 40-50 C (Kirk Othmer). FClO3 is also stable up to 400 C, and hydrolyzes slowly. Grease and rubber tubing has caused explosions.

FClO3 is also made by reacting fluorine with KClO3 at -20 C in SbF5: KClO3 + F2 => KF + FClO3 Or by reacting KClO4 with HSO3F: KClO4 + HSO3F => FClO3 + KHSO4 (From: Lehrbuch der anorganischen Chemie by A.F. Holleman, E.Wiberg, N.Wiberg).

Quote:

Electrophilic substitution in presence of Lewis acids of FClO3 on aromatics has yielded some interesting compounds via introduction of -ClO3 groups. Perchlorylbenzene, nitroperchlorylbenzene, etc. preparation is in US3067211, US3937627. Nitrogen heterocyclics also, US3332955 describes N-perchlorylpiperidine from ClO3F, this compound has been known to explode on storage. The same have been made from Cl2O7 and cyclic nitrogen amines in an inert solvent. Perchloryl aromatics are usually shock sensitive. 3-Nitroperchlorylbenzene is about as shock sensitive as lead azide, and said to have a very high detonation rate. Not exactly inert either, even to one of the chemicals used to make them: a perchlorylbenzene/AlCl3 mixture does nothing, then explodes after some time. With FClO3, alcohols said to turn into extremely explosive alkyl perchlorates.


Quote:

Dichlorine heptoxide in carbon tetrachloride reacts as a perchlorylating agent with secondary and primary amines. Piperidine, dimethylamine, and 2-ethylaziridine gave N-perchlorylpiperidine, N-perchloryldiethylamine, and N-perchloryl-2-ethylaziridine, respectively. Propylamine and tert-butylamine gave N-perchlorylpropylamine and N-perchloryl-tert-butylamine. The primary perchlorylamines are acidic and form sodium salts with aqueous sodium hydroxide. Yields ranged between 60-83%.

"Reactions of dichlorine heptoxide with Amines"
Charles D. Beard, Kurt Baum


N-perchloryl organic compounds are apparently extremely sensitive, prone to explode for little reason:
Quote:

N-perchlorylpiperidine is a dangerously sensitive material. It explodes on heating and on contact with anhydrous piperidine. A sample of the oil exploded with violence in an outside bunker as a possible result or exposure to heat or the sun...


The ClO3F route to organic perchloryl compounds gives very poor yields, so the Cl2O7 route, which gives very good yields, may be preferable. Each route, however, presents its own unique safety considerations; whereas working with ClO3F has similar hazards to working with fluorine (although supposedly glass shows good resistance to ClO3F), working with Cl2O7 presents a severe explosion hazard. As for dissolving Cl2O7 in CCl4, probably best to use a large excess of CCl4, and to mix immediately before use since there will likely be a spontaneous react after a short time. Preparation of solutions of Cl2O7 in CCl4 is also described in: F. Meyer, Keszler (Ber. 54, [1921] 569). It almost seems that anhydrous HClO4 is more reactive towards CCl4 than Cl2O7, which is unexpected since Cl2O7 is the "acid anhydride" of HClO4. HClO4 is insoluble in CCl4, and gives upon shaking, a green emulsion, which discolors brown after several minutes welling up under formation of HCl and COCl2 (Vorländer, v. Schilling, Lieb. Ann. 310 [1900] 374).

[Edited on 30-11-2011 by AndersHoveland]

AndersHoveland - 1-12-2011 at 20:11

Below are the structures for N-perchlorylpiperidine, N-perchloryldimethylamine, N-perchlorylpropylamine.

One of the likely resonance structures for N-perchloryl compounds that would explain their relative stability (at least the fact that they do not immediately explode) is shown in "figure R".



N-perchlorylcompounds.GIF - 3kB

franklyn - 19-12-2011 at 20:59

Organic Perchlorate Esters
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/271592.pdf

Organic Perchlorates
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/902549.pdf


Advanced Oxidizer Research 1964 I
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/352713.pdf

Advanced Oxidizer Research 1964 II
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/361116.pdf

Advanced Oxidizer Research 1966
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/376350.pdf


Research in Fluoro-Nitro Compounds
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/347414.pdf


Related Post _
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=1778&a...


[Edited on 20-12-2011 by franklyn]

Adas - 5-5-2012 at 12:26

Ethylene diperchlorate? I think it can be made by reacting Cl2O6 with ethylene.

EDIT: Not possible, since Cl2O6 consists of [ClO2]<sup>+</sup> [ClO4]<sup>-</sup>

[Edited on 6-5-2012 by Adas]

AndersHoveland - 28-7-2013 at 04:21

"Diethyl ether detonated when it was added to perchloric acid"
Chemical Risk Analysis: A Practical Handbook, Bernard Martel, 267

There might be a chance it could be possible to prepare some ethyl perchlorate by cautiously adding 70% perchloric acid into diethyl ether. I really do not know what would happen, it might be worth investigating, though of course it should be treated as if it could detonate at any moment at all times.

Antiswat - 28-7-2013 at 06:24

well anders, they dont describe what concentration, it could of been 99% in which also goes off with a nice snap with paper added (:
ether does form peroxides just with air, i suppose not even anhydrous HClO4 would be needed for it..?

halogen - 8-8-2013 at 07:55

Well if PHILOU is right, then why stray to such incongruities as cubanes? Tetrabromoadamantane and adamantanetetrol are readily prepared. Perfect balance too. It's probably a dreadful notion but who knows.

Nobody linked this either- http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/754778.pdf

[Edited on 8-8-2013 by halogen]

Davin - 11-1-2014 at 17:06

The original files for the synthesis of ethyl perchlorate on Blaster's site are 404'd. Could someone re-upload them?

Dany - 12-1-2014 at 03:18

i found two method for the preparation of ethyl perchlorate:

the first one see [1], uses ethyl iodide with lithium perchlorate in aprotic solvent (Et2O, AcOEt...) in the presence of an oxidizer (Cl2, m-CPBA, H5IO6).

the second paper [2], uses ethyl iodide and silver perchlorate in equivalent amount (see page 23 for the procedure from [2]) to form ethyl perchlorate in absolute ether.

also, this is the reference of Julius Meyer & Walter Spormann that Blaster translated to make his ethyl perchlorate.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/zaac.19362280404/...

Dany.

Attachment: [1].pdf (67kB)
This file has been downloaded 409 times

Attachment: [2].pdf (1.6MB)
This file has been downloaded 472 times




[Edited on 12-1-2014 by Dany]

Davin - 14-1-2014 at 21:26

Thanks Dany!

BromicAcid - 15-1-2014 at 04:31

Here are the first to pages of the Meyer&Spormann paper in English courtesy of the Wayback Archive. The rest of the images however were not archived as far as I can tell. I can also dig up the Hare&Boye paper transcribed into Word. It was difficult to read so once upon a time I copied it over.

http://www.destructve.com/sciencemadness/ms1.gif
http://www.destructve.com/sciencemadness/ms2.gif

Davin - 16-1-2014 at 16:57

Thanks Bromic!

Perchlorate polymers

franklyn - 1-1-2020 at 11:07

Reactions of Dichlorine Heptoxide with alcohols
J. Am. Chem. Soc. 1974, 96, 10, 3233-3237
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/ja00817a033
https://doi.org/10.1021/ja00817a033

Reactions of dichlorine heptoxide with alcohols.jpg - 547kB


Dichlorine Heptoxide in Carbon Tetrachloride is a general reagent for the facile oxidation of alcohols to alkyl perchlorates.
It's preparation from Perchloric acid obviates subsequent handling of the acid itself.
Propargyl alcohol H-CΞC-CH2OH for example is thus made in situ into Propargyl Perchlorate. H-CΞC-CH2-ClO4 => 3 CO + H2O + HCl .
Propargyl alcohol polymerizes , presenting the prospect of producing a perchlorate polymer.

Chloroethene monomer commonly known as Vinyl Chloride , H2:C=CH.Cl polymerizes into the familiar PVC plastic ( Poly Vinyl Chloride ) [CH2.CHCl]n
Ethenol known as Hydroxylethylene commonly known as Vinyl alcohol H2:C=CH.OH
may suitably be made into Vinyl Perchlorate H2:C=CH.ClO4 => CO2 + CO + H2O + HCl
and subsequently polymerized in the same way ( barring steric hindrance ) into a Poly Vinyl Perchlorate [CH2CHClO4]n

The highest density of PVC plastic is ~ 1.45 . Higher density can be anticipated in the perchlorate variant.

1,3,5-Trihydroxybenzene also known as 1,3,5-Benzenetriol commonly known as Phloroglucinol C6H3(OH)3
should readily be liable to form the Perchlorate , C6H3(ClO4)3 => 6 CO2 + 3 HCl

IMPORTANT CRITICAL PRACTICE FOR INVESTIGATION
https://sites.google.com/site/energeticchemical/alkyl-perchl...


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[Edited on 2-1-2020 by franklyn]

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