Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Convert random chemical stuff to biologically utilizable things?

Convert random chemical stuff to biologically utilizable things?

SupFanat - 22-5-2015 at 16:22

Is there any research about this thread?
Unnecessary resides of sodium metal have reductive power but can't be used by human being. Why should someone in hypothetical catastrophic situation - with no food supply but with tons of sodium metal available have to die of hunger? Sodium has more reductive power than organic compounds - so it could (in theory) reduce CO₂, H₂O, sulfates and another chemical stuff to something edible.

Oxygen might be easier to obtain from some chemical stuff - for example alkaline metal chlorates are said (at least by some Russian sources) to exothermically decompose to corresponding chlorides and oxygen.

Zombie - 22-5-2015 at 18:18

Quote: Originally posted by SupFanat

Is there any research about this thread?
Unnecessary resides of sodium metal have reductive power but can't be used by human being. Why should someone in hypothetical catastrophic situation - with no food supply but with tons of sodium metal available have to die of hunger? Sodium has more reductive power than organic compounds - so it could (in theory) reduce CO₂, H₂O, sulfates and another chemical stuff to something edible.

Oxygen might be easier to obtain from some chemical stuff - for example alkaline metal chlorates are said (at least by some Russian sources) to exothermically decompose to corresponding chlorides and oxygen.

How would sodium metal translate into food?

blogfast25 - 22-5-2015 at 18:39

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie

How would sodium metal translate into food?

That's not really the question here, IMHO.

Chemical reactions provide energy in cells. Reduction ('stroke' other) reactions involving sodium can provide energy. But how that energy could be 'metabolised' is quite another matter. I don't see any way that could be done.

Exothermic reactions involving sodium could of course be used as 'external' (non-metabolic) energy, used to heat shelter (home, cave, whatnot) of course.

j_sum1 - 22-5-2015 at 18:40

I think hypothetically the Na is an energy source to drive the conversion of C/H/O from unspecified sources to bioavailable food.
I don't see a plausible route. (Actually, I think it is a somewhat silly question. But then there might be something in it. Probably not for food but maybe another application.)

SupFanat - 23-5-2015 at 00:35

The idea is using sodium as reducing agent.
Don't you think it could in theory make some sense?
As a backup food supply for someone who happens to have a lot of sodium metal.

Chemosynthesis - 23-5-2015 at 00:59

Too vague of a topic to have much meaning, in my opinion. There are peptide syntheses in organic chemistry, but the choice coupling reagents aren't exactly hobby friendly.

phlogiston - 23-5-2015 at 04:48

1,3-butanediol has been studied as a kind of synthetic food source that might be synthesised for instance in space to provide calories.

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/91/1/79.full.pdf

SupFanat - 23-5-2015 at 06:01

Thank you. My idea is to reduce CO2 and H2O to some synthetic food with non-edible reduction agent (sodium as example).
Conversion of biologically useless oxidizing agent to oxygen might be possible.

blogfast25 - 23-5-2015 at 06:49

Quote: Originally posted by SupFanat

Thank you. My idea is to reduce CO2 and H2O to some synthetic food with non-edible reduction agent (sodium as example).
Conversion of biologically useless oxidizing agent to oxygen might be possible.

Conversion of CO2 and H2O to carbohydrates (sugars) maybe but there's no known catalysis involving sodium for such a process, IFAK.

unionised - 23-5-2015 at 07:19

Interesting, I'd look at the chemistries of
this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzenehexol
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inositol

Molecular Manipulations - 23-5-2015 at 08:38

Importing sodium is likely not as cheap as water... which along with cabon dioxide, nitrogen, a few other minerals and sunlight (quite common in contries that lack water) is a known way to produce not only carbhydrates but proteins as well.

I don't see why you consider sodium when aluminum bonds stronger to oxygen, and is way cheaper.

SupFanat - 23-5-2015 at 11:22

I consider sodium because stronger bong of aluminium to oxygen is excessive strong for organic chemistry so the "weaker" bond of sodium and oxygen is still strong enough for such reactions. Any other strongly reductive stuff can be considered as well, not just aluminium but also lithium, potassium, calcium phosphide - simply everything what could work in theory.

Zombie - 23-5-2015 at 11:36

SupFanat,
I can't say much to help your idea(s) but I can say you have posted some very interesting questions, and topics.

I'm learning just by reading the responses to them.

SupFanat - 23-5-2015 at 11:48

My idea is reusing remains of chemicals which were originally produced for some another purpose but aren't needed anymore because the original plan to use these chemicals is abandoned. Who knows why someone might have collected a lot of sodium metal, calcium phosphide or another chemicals? Perhaps there was some purpose which isn't of current interest anymore. Now it's simply chemical waste which could however be used for something else.

aga - 23-5-2015 at 11:57

Pointless speculation.

Re-use your IOC waste by recovering the chemical(s).

Zombie - 23-5-2015 at 17:52

What about Blog's, Chemo's,and MM's posts?

If you can make carbs/sugars, proteins, and pep-tides from waste chemicals, then add in unionised's inostitol... Sounds like a salad to me.

I eat a lot of hot dogs so waste chemicals are a staple for me anyway. I find the idea intriguing however far from economical it might be.

Perhaps these are ideas that should be looked at as supplements at least. Instead of welfare food stamps you can hand out chemical salad credits. I'll bet you the unemployment rate halves the first week. Obama care(s).

Molecular Manipulations - 23-5-2015 at 19:59

Quote: Originally posted by SupFanat

I consider sodium because stronger bong of aluminium to oxygen is excessive strong for organic chemistry so the "weaker" bond of sodium and oxygen is still strong enough for such reactions. Any other strongly reductive stuff can be considered as well, not just aluminium but also lithium, potassium, calcium phosphide - simply everything what could work in theory.

Well it sounds like you've got it all worked out huh?

blogfast25 - 24-5-2015 at 06:10

Quote: Originally posted by Molecular Manipulations

Quote: Originally posted by SupFanat

Well it sounds like you've got it all worked out huh?

By what 'theory', Suppy?

SupFanat - 24-5-2015 at 06:20

According to standard redox potentials, sodium is strong enough reductive to make any thinkable stuff C_xH_yO_z from CO₂ and H₂O.

blogfast25 - 24-5-2015 at 06:37

Quote: Originally posted by SupFanat

According to standard redox potentials, sodium is strong enough reductive to make any thinkable stuff C_xH_yO_z from CO₂ and H₂O.

This is where you show your ignorance.

SRP values are THERMODYNAMICAL considerations but Thermodynamics makes NO pronouncements on KINETICS.

Simply put, e.g. the reaction C + O2 === > CO2 is Thermodynamically very favourable but have you EVER seen a piece of coal spontaneously combust?

Same with lighter gas (Butane) for instance: without a spark, no flame.

For the conversion of C and H2O to sugars it's far more complicated in terms of reaction mechanism and kinetics. That's why our cells employ highly specific catalysts (called Enzymes) to overcome these so-called 'kinetic barriers'.

No amount of sodium will achieve a G-ddamn thing here, without highly specific catalyst(s).

BTW: they are Standard REDUCTION Potentials. Combined (i.e. redox) they give Standard Cell Potentials.

[Edited on 24-5-2015 by blogfast25]