apathy
Harmless
Posts: 2
Registered: 25-1-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Citric acid + acetic acid=
I drink apple cider vinegar to help with stomach problems, but the taste is almost unbearable. If I mix it with orange juice in a 1:4 ratio it all
most completely covers up the taste.
I have heard that acids sometimes counteract each other and I wonder if that is why it covers the taste up so well
I could just try it for awhile and see if the problems return, but I don't want to test the theory if I don't have to. Thanks in advance.
|
|
|
numos
Hazard to Others
Posts: 269
Registered: 22-2-2014
Location: Pasadena
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I'm no wine taster so I don't know about covering up the taste, but I doubt there is a reaction between those two acids.
|
|
|
thesmug
Hazard to Others
Posts: 370
Registered: 17-1-2014
Location: Chicago, Il (USA)
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
numos is right, chemically nothing would happen as they are both weak organic acids. I know that NaHCO3 can act as a base and or an acid depending on
circumstance, but I've never heard of an acid neutralizing an acid. As for the taste, I think it has very little to do with the citric acid and more
simply because orange juice has such a strong (for lack of a better term) flavor.
|
|
|
Pyrovus
Hazard to Others
Posts: 241
Registered: 13-10-2003
Location: Australia, now with 25% faster carrier pigeons
Member Is Offline
Mood: heretical
|
|
Theoretically you could make the acetic ester of citric acid (it does have that hydroxyl group, after all), but generally esterification reactions
need strongly acidic conditions. It's much more likely that all the various flavour molecules present in orange juice are simply drowning out the
vinegar flavour.
Never accept that which can be changed.
|
|
|
Fantasma4500
International Hazard
Posts: 1681
Registered: 12-12-2012
Location: Dysrope (aka europe)
Member Is Offline
Mood: dangerously practical
|
|
slightly offtopic: vinegar and NaCl is very effective on cleaning coins, by what i SUPPOSE, vinegar is not stronger acid than HCl, so why would it
form HCl with NaCl?
HCl very effectively removes copper oxides
|
|
|
HgDinis25
Hazard to Others
Posts: 439
Registered: 14-3-2014
Location: Portugal
Member Is Offline
Mood: Who drank my mercury?
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat  | slightly offtopic: vinegar and NaCl is very effective on cleaning coins, by what i SUPPOSE, vinegar is not stronger acid than HCl, so why would it
form HCl with NaCl?
HCl very effectively removes copper oxides |
Are you sure HCl is formed? Vinegar, by itself, can easily with copper oxide (assuming copper oxide is the "dirt" on coins). The Sodium Chloride
aditions is, probably, to add an abrasive. Sodium Chloride also wokrs well as an abrasive when cleaning dirty glassware.
|
|
|
elementcollector1
International Hazard
Posts: 2684
Registered: 28-12-2011
Location: The Known Universe
Member Is Offline
Mood: Molten
|
|
The understood reaction is that the chloride ions and hydrogen ions form an equilibrium of HCl, which attacks the copper oxide. Vinegar alone is too
weak to do anything, and it would take movement and abrasion of the surface of the pennies by the salt (which can't happen in a dissolved solution) to
clean them physically.
[Edited on 3-18-2014 by elementcollector1]
Elements Collected:52/87
Latest Acquired: Cl
Next in Line: Nd
|
|
|
HgDinis25
Hazard to Others
Posts: 439
Registered: 14-3-2014
Location: Portugal
Member Is Offline
Mood: Who drank my mercury?
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1 | The understood reaction is that the chloride ions and hydrogen ions form an equilibrium of HCl, which attacks the copper oxide. Vinegar alone is too
weak to do anything, and it would take movement and abrasion of the surface of the pennies by the salt (which can't happen in a dissolved solution) to
clean them physically.
[Edited on 3-18-2014 by elementcollector1] |
When refering to the abrasive properties of NaCl I was obviusly talking about it not in solution. My grandmother, for instance, uses lime juice and
salt to clean copper (same effect here, only with citric acid). I supposed the effec here was the same. And vinegar has already a good concentration
of acetic acid, that would do the job dissolving copper oxide (I've done it myself).
I always thought that the equilibrium constant would be too low to make any decent concentration of HCl, but I'm probably wrong in this.
|
|
|
Zyklon-A
International Hazard
Posts: 1547
Registered: 26-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fluorine radical
|
|
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=23728
I doubt any notable reaction occurs.
[Edited on 18-3-2014 by Zyklonb]
|
|
|
Random
International Hazard
Posts: 1120
Registered: 7-5-2010
Location: In ur closet
Member Is Offline
Mood: Energetic
|
|
Solution gets diluted and is masked with orange flavor compounds.
|
|
|
DraconicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 4326
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-victorious.
|
|
No- there are no HCl molecules in any dilute aqueous solution, because HCl is a strong acid. What happens is that the chloride ions can coordinate to
the copper ions, which helps the weakly acidic solution dissolve the oxide.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
|
|
|
elementcollector1
International Hazard
Posts: 2684
Registered: 28-12-2011
Location: The Known Universe
Member Is Offline
Mood: Molten
|
|
Ah. Evidently I have to have a few words with my school's chemistry department...
Elements Collected:52/87
Latest Acquired: Cl
Next in Line: Nd
|
|
|
HgDinis25
Hazard to Others
Posts: 439
Registered: 14-3-2014
Location: Portugal
Member Is Offline
Mood: Who drank my mercury?
|
|
Hahaha, another exemple of school doing it's job: misinformating it's students.
Yesterday, at school, we were told to handle a 0,1M solution of acetic acid and my teacher (who hates me because of all my chemistry knowledge, half
of it coming from this forum) started yelling at me for not using the acid in a fume hood. People, c'mon, my vinegar is 10 times more concentrated
than that and I temper my salad in my kitchen table...
|
|
|
DraconicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 4326
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-victorious.
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by HgDinis25 | | Yesterday, at school, we were told to handle a 0,1M solution of acetic acid and my teacher (who hates me because of all my chemistry knowledge, half
of it coming from this forum) started yelling at me for not using the acid in a fume hood. People, c'mon, my vinegar is 10 times more concentrated
than that and I temper my salad in my kitchen table... |
When we do a lab with vinegar at my college, we try to leave it in the fume hood, just so that the students don't complain about the smell of
white/red wine/balsamic/apple cider vinegars all mingling together.
And so that I don't start craving french fries quite so much.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
|
|
|
elementcollector1
International Hazard
Posts: 2684
Registered: 28-12-2011
Location: The Known Universe
Member Is Offline
Mood: Molten
|
|
I temper my salad with a coal forge (for maximum nostalgia) and a quenching bucket.
(Blacksmithing jokes!)
Anyway, it's probably not so much misinforming as it being dumbed down, and then presented (misinformedly) to demonstrate a concept, in this case
equilibrium.
Elements Collected:52/87
Latest Acquired: Cl
Next in Line: Nd
|
|
|
HgDinis25
Hazard to Others
Posts: 439
Registered: 14-3-2014
Location: Portugal
Member Is Offline
Mood: Who drank my mercury?
|
|
@DraconicAcid I smeled the acid (bad lab procudere  ), I smeled a faint scente
of it.
Oh, she also said that those (http://www.ycrongkang.com/product.asp?Product_ID=860) aren't plastic pasteur pippetes and that I am absolutly wrong when even calling them
pippetes. They must be called eye droppers, acording to her. I lost my temper in that class...
|
|
|
jwpa17
Harmless
Posts: 45
Registered: 28-5-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
When you mix acetic acid (pKa 4.75) and citric acid (pKa 3.08), the mixture would be less acidic than the stronger of the two, but more acidic than
the weaker. Both have equilibria involving protons, so the equilibria are coupled.
The above disregards the concentrations. According to Wikipedia, the pH of white vinegar is about 2.4, that of orange juice is 3.5. So the
concentration of citric acid in OJ must be considerably less than that of acetic acid in white vinegar (about 1 M).
So, adding vinegar to OJ, some of the citric acid will protonate the available acetate. But probably the biggest effects are due to dilution and the
sugar and flavor in the OJ.
[Edited on 19-3-2014 by jwpa17]
|
|
|
DraconicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 4326
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-victorious.
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by jwpa17 | | When you mix acetic acid and citric acid, the small amount of citrate present deprotonates some of the acetic acid, since citric is a weaker acid than
acetic acid. Both equilibria are happening in the same solution, and share protons in common. In other words, the citric acid slightly reduces the
acidity of the vinegar. I'm sure the dilution and the sugar in the OJ also affects the taste. |
No- if you mix a weak acid with an even weaker acid, the solution of the weak acid will become less acidic only because of the dilution.
If you have a solution of HX and HY (where HX has a significantly larger Ka than HY), the presence of HX will prevent HY from ionizing very much, but
the presence of HY will not affect the ionization of HX.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
|
|
|
jwpa17
Harmless
Posts: 45
Registered: 28-5-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
No, the conjugate base of the weaker acid will deprotonate the acid of the stronger acid. What you describe amounts to two independent equilibria,
not possible if they share a species in common.
|
|
|
DraconicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 4326
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-victorious.
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by jwpa17 | | No, the conjugate base of the weaker acid will deprotonate the acid of the stronger acid. What you describe amounts to two independent equilibria,
not possible if they share a species in common. |
No, because there will be barely any of the conjugate base of the weaker acid present in solution.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
|
|
|
apathy
Harmless
Posts: 2
Registered: 25-1-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Alright I've been using the oj vinegar cocktail for a few days. Yesterday I decided to test it I drank a cup of the mix and ate a flamethrower
grillburger from dairy queen last night and I ate my fries with mayo mixed with daves insanity sauce. Woke up this morning with no problems. I think I
have the system beat.
Thanks for the help
|
|
|
Texium
Administrator
Posts: 4569
Registered: 11-1-2014
Location: Salt Lake City
Member Is Offline
Mood: PhD candidate!
|
|
Yech, that Dave's Insanity sauce… scary stuff that!
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
