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Author: Subject: Uses of tungsten copper alloy
Mr. Wizard
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[*] posted on 17-1-2009 at 11:08
Uses of tungsten copper alloy


What use would this alloy be put to?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123206759616688285.html

Would this be used in the exhaust nozzle to guide the thrusters or some other exotic application? Inquiring minds want to know. :)
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Sauron
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[*] posted on 17-1-2009 at 13:09


It all looks like dual use stuff to me. The beef is with Commerce Dept not State or Defense. In cases like this the US plays it cautious, but it is pressuring third parties to pass on this business, which may be unpalatable.



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watson.fawkes
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[*] posted on 17-1-2009 at 19:06


Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Wizard
What use would this alloy be put to? [...] Would this be used in the exhaust nozzle to guide the thrusters [...]
The stated use is for guidance fins on rockets. The reason for this is compressive heating. An obstruction in a high speed flow develops a zone of high pressure right in front of it, which heats up just like the ideal gas law says it should. This same heating effect occurs when the space shuttle reenters the atmosphere.
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Sauron
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[*] posted on 17-1-2009 at 21:01


Again, the US has not made a very convincing case for this being the only possible use. Were that the case, the material would be classed as a defense material and regulated by the State Department and Defense Department. The fact that the source for the WSJ is the Commerce Department means that the material (and titanium sheet and aluminum sheet etc. discussed in article) is all capable of being used in civilian applications.

The supplier is a Chinese company in Beijing.

Unless the US can establish that the tungsten-copper alloy technology was American origin and lawfully transferred, and thus transferred under the usual provisos about end use and third country transfers, the US has no jurisdiction in the matter. It can do its best (or worst) to convince China to play along. It can argue, it can intimidate, it can threaten. But in cases like this where a lot of money is on the table, those tactics do not always prevail.

I am sure that Iran is up to no good. I am sure that one of these days we will have to turn parts of the place into green glass before they do the same to us. But in meantime - business is business.




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Ozone
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[*] posted on 17-1-2009 at 21:27


electrical contacts. But...

IIRC, W is also a very nice neutron reflecting material (not a bad spallation target, either). It's up to you to do the math (multiplicative media vs. tritium). It can also be used in reverse as shielding material (Elkonite?) http://www.cmwinc.com/search.php?q=tungsten+copper:


MW High-Density Metals :: Industries
not only manufacture the tungsten alloys but we also have the experience and expertise to machine typical properties for our materials. medical radiation shielding: tungsten began replacing lead in 18g/cm³, tungsten alloy shielding takes up roughly two-thirds as much space as lead shielding, lead are required for effective shielding. tungsten-based alloys, on the other hand, are the applications. oil & gas exploration: tungsten began replacing lead in oil well radiation
cmwinc.com/metals-industries.php - 23.447 Kb - 2008-02-10


[...business is business...]

Yes.

Cheers,

O3

[Edited on 17-1-2009 by Ozone]




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Sauron
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[*] posted on 17-1-2009 at 22:56


It's best to have a long memory as it affords perspective.

Iran is the demon of the moment, but if the US succeeds in bullying China into blocking this sale, they can turn elsewhere, Russia for example, where I believe we have even less leverage than we do with China. I'm sure Putin and the oligarchs would be delighted to do business with their neighbors on the other side of the Caspian. They would tell Commerce to piss up a rope.

Throughout the 1980s we were playing footsie with Iran (TOW missiles etc.) and at the same time supplying Saddam's Iraq with huge amounts of arms, including chemical weapons precursors, such as thiodiglycol. The US, Japan, and all the major European powers colluded in this. Why? Because Iran and Iraq were slugging it out and we wanted that war of attrition to go on and on and what we did not want was for either side to prevail. So Saddam (and the Iranians too) threw chemicals at each other, and slaughtered each other, and we sat back and made sure parity was maintained. No one in any of the governments grew a conscience till Saddam started using his CW against his own people, and then the US prosecuted a Maryland company for shipping thiodiglycol to Iraq.

There was other foolishness like the Supergun and Jerry Bull's Space Research Corp. team making prototype long range cannons for Saddam. The British eventually pulled the plug on that one, and someone put a couple of bullets in the back of Jerry Bull's head in Brussels.

So you see, governments are hypocrites, and their pious pronouncements are not to be taken too seriously.




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JohnWW
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[*] posted on 17-1-2009 at 23:57


W-Cu phase diagram is described and shown here:
http://neon.mems.cmu.edu/laughlin/pdf/130.pdf 237 Kb

A restricted version for it is here; someone with Springerlink access please download and post it here:
http://www.springerlink.com/index/t241851v1600h088.pdf

A patent on W-Cu alloys is here: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4832738.html

[Edited on 18-1-09 by JohnWW]

[Edited on 18-1-09 by JohnWW]

Cu-W_Phase_Diagram-1Atm.bmp - 1.9MB
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sparkgap
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[*] posted on 18-1-2009 at 00:49


Here's the Landolt-Bornstein phase diagram John was alluding to. I will merely comment that I'm casting a wry eye at the words "tentative phase diagram".

sparky (~_~)

Attachment: cuwphas.pdf (81kB)
This file has been downloaded 1408 times





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JohnWW
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[*] posted on 18-1-2009 at 01:13


The US Patent 4832738 (of 1989), mentioned above, does not have a Cu-W phase diagram; but, for comparison, it has this Mo-Cu phase diagram. The patent also has a graph of he variation of the (high-temperature) vapor pressure of Cu with temperature.

[Edited on 19-1-09 by JohnWW]

Cu-W_Phase_Diagram-USPatent4832738(1989).bmp - 1.7MB
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Ozone
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[*] posted on 18-1-2009 at 10:42


Thanks for the info. I think that you have grabbed the wrong diagram. That looks like the phase diagram for Mo/Cu.

Cheers,

O3




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[*] posted on 18-1-2009 at 13:44


The mundane use for W-Cu alloys is for making dies for EDM (electric discharge machining).



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[*] posted on 20-2-2009 at 09:50


Another use of W-Cu alloys is in the thermal management of solid-state lasers: The coefficient of thermal expansion closely matches that of some of the active crystals used (e.g. Nd-YAG). It can therefore be used for holding the crystal and cool it by conduction. Nd-YAG lasers operate in the near IR (1065 nm). Could such a laser perhaps be used in isotopic separation? This I don't know.
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[*] posted on 23-2-2009 at 08:11


Double the frequency to get 532nm light and use this to pump a finely-tuneable dye laser and yeah, you could probably use it, just like they used to use Cu vapour lasers.
But would anyone do that instead of using gas centrifuges? I think that's how everyone does it these days isn't it?
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