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Author: Subject: Mixes Fast enough for shape charges
papaya
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[*] posted on 2-4-2021 at 17:30


Target metal thickness is 2.5mm btw., also mixture is hand pressed slightly to 1.35 density and contained in a really thick walled plastic tube (2-3mm polypropylene tubing). Saying that chlorate cheddites are weak is a misconception as you can see, originating mostly from the experience people have with 90/10 kerosene mixture... that one NEVER detonates properly (for me) and looks like a gunpowder, leading to the illusion of "weak" explosives I hear many times here and even read in some books! But this is not cheddites topic.

[Edited on 3-4-2021 by papaya]
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[*] posted on 2-4-2021 at 22:39


NaClO3 has OB + 45.55. Vanilline - 178,8. At ratio 80/20 is OB + 0,680 on CO2. At ratio 79/21 = OB - 1,564. Maybe try this ratio without oil.
And use water. I estimate 1 - 6%. For partially mixing both compounds on molecular level. Because results on metal target 2,5mm are incredible good. By video.




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[*] posted on 2-4-2021 at 23:28


Dear liptakov, I cannot vouch for the use of water instaed of oil since it was never tested, however I can say that some liquid phase must be present in these mixtures not only for safety reasons but also that liquid phase helpes the transition of shockwave and also improves the density/makes the mix a little sticky, without it only deflagrations! Use no more than 3% of oil (even if recalculated for other OB0% ratio) since from my experience 6% oil also deflagrated (based on 1 test with a different better than vaniline fuel). The vanilline mixture in video is already oxygen ballanced, also you can see all the other holes on that target made by different chlorate mixtures (not discussing here) and there are even bigger holes, all without any nitroaromatics and very cheap! All of then contain no more than 2.5% oil. I presented vanilline here also because it is non sensitive- the dry 80/20 mixture dosent go off under heavy hammer blows, its also impossible to ignite! I think possibly due to very low melting point of vanilline that takes some heat. Also not all vanilline IS real vanilline - in most cases they trade a sugar powder with some vanilla flavour - dont try it maybe dangerous. Fortunately I found a good way to determinieren ne pure vanilline - pour some powder on the spoon and heat from below with lighter. Pure vanilline will eventiually evap orate leaving no residue at all, while sugar mixed leaves a lot of car bon reside. Also with all these chlorate mixes there are some tendencies that I want to share : critical diameter use 25mm or more, 20mm is already unrelyable; use at least 600mg initiator, sodium chlorate is preferred since potassium one was mixed results, use thick walled plastick tubing for the charge, separately grind ingrediets (important!) with coffee grinder I think mine were 100 microns at least (barely visible grains), do not add catalysts like iron oxide erc - totally useless..
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[*] posted on 2-4-2021 at 23:49


Also I calculated OB of NaCLO3 =~+45.1%; not sure if I was right, but difference is minor anyway.
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[*] posted on 3-4-2021 at 00:28


It is great research in frame Cheddite type compositions. Using vanilline / oil + NaClO3 is maybe a new invention. According a huge holes in metal plate. Maybe also a small ammount of oil is important. Because exist a lot mixtures, which give much better result, if is used 2 or more differents fuels...:cool:



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papaya
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[*] posted on 3-4-2021 at 00:57


Thanks for good words liptakov, only the hole shown here explicitly belongs to vanilline mixture (well theres also one but barely visible in video, it was partial failure anyway), other bigger hole and one "deep" hole are actually different - hexamine based, triple component fuels... unfortunately oxygen ballanced mixtures with just double hexamine+oil are weaker than the same hexamine+oil OB positive mixes - weird thing here! For example 10g KClO3 + 0.7g hexamin +0.3g oil is better than with 1g hexamine which is better than 1.4 g hexamine (perfect OB). I found a way overcome this by mixing in third fuel which actually did the thing and produced that big hole! Also it appears to be storage stable - not changed properties in one week. But the preparation is a little complicated, not suitable for this topic, I may share in other threads if it gets interest.. Vanilline is good since it's difficult to make mistakes here as long as you get pure vanilline(but it seems to require good confinement). Another promising fuel was polystyrene powder with oil (oil is always 2.5% btw) but I never found a good way how to powderize PS plastic, you can research into it if interested.
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[*] posted on 3-4-2021 at 06:43


Preparation polystyrene in any powder mixture is pretty easy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSx8EGMIfcA&t=1s
Require it only diluter for styrofoam described in video. And evaporation. Arises relatively homogenous mixture with any powder material.
Small grain, coated styrene film. In video is styrofoam used a like binder and fuel 2 in 1. Final materal is hard, no plastic. Or it can be hard grain mixture. According ratios of fuels and final compacticity.
Yes, some mixtures gives better properties with positive OB. Even CHP is positive with OB + 2,44. For best power. (TACP 88, hexamine 6, NH4ClO4 6)
Theory is important. But last word has attempt...:cool:




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[*] posted on 3-4-2021 at 10:09


I cannot watch the video without having youtube account, LL, but I got the Idea behind - evaporate PS solution soaked oxidizer - nice way, must be working! But still If there's a way to powderise ANY polymer without cryogenic temperatures I would like to know how.
Also take a look at my PS attempts here - target thickness is forgotten now but it is thinner than 2.5mm one.
https://tube.tchncs.de/videos/watch/8ce6e80b-d9e5-4e34-a552-...
https://tube.tchncs.de/videos/watch/ac5e8950-a1ea-4e0e-89b2-...
They still worked and I believe that VERY(!) crude PS powder was to blame for less than the full power output .
P.S. If any of moderators finds it acceptable he can move this talk to a more appropriate thread.
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[*] posted on 3-4-2021 at 10:53


Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
The initiating mightiness is very important. For this water gel. Require the casting 1g ETN. Or high pressed 1g ETN. Or 1.5 - 2g CHP high pressed.

[Edited on 2-4-2021 by Laboratory of Liptakov]


This could be the problem then, I used 1 gram ETN in some plastic wrap. No confinement at all.
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[*] posted on 3-4-2021 at 10:59


Quote: Originally posted by papaya  
Brighttermite, it's surprizing to me to see just as little damage on your test target from 10g of ETN (not having experience with etn, but knowing that it is powerful though) as on the photo. I've experimented a little bit with different cheddites (sodium chlorate based) and I can assure that 12g of the best mixtures I explored do equal or more damage on the same type of target! Just look at this one as an example https://tube.tchncs.de/videos/watch/1aef96d3-abdf-4f6a-8123-...


The 10 grams was unconfined in a paper tube. I posted here http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=64582 and showed the same tube with a 5 gram melt cast charge. The difference density makes is night and day and I find it so interesting!

Would you mind pointing me in the direction of the cheddites you have been using?
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[*] posted on 3-4-2021 at 11:30


Brightermite, what do you mean, the composition? Look the first vanilline video, did you see it? composition is in the titles . Another and maybe the most powerful mixture I developed stands for: 10g of NaCLO3 + 1.5g FUEL + 0.3g of oil; where FUEL stands for hexamine/rosin 2:1 by weight composite. But FUEL needs a preparation procedure where powderized hexamine is cooked with rosin at 180°C temperatures for about an hour or two - a material is obtained that is higher melting than ordinary rosin, possibly due to some reaction, then this material is reduced tk the dust and mixed with chlorate. I will upload one test of it soon, as you can see it is more complicated procedure but most powerful!
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[*] posted on 3-4-2021 at 11:31


papaya.....Diluter formula for styrofoam is Toluene 30% Acetone 20% Ethyl Acetate 20% Butane 1 ol 15% Iso butanol 15%. Is it commerce diluter for nitrocellulose. In some country.
I saw videos. For 11g only, are results good. But more interest are mixtures with NaClO3.




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[*] posted on 3-4-2021 at 12:43


Videos uploaded on demand :D I hope this will make some good evening show for some of you, enjoy! (on the serious side I think this mix can serve also as a good cheap booster composition for other things)


https://tube.tchncs.de/videos/watch/38e113d0-de03-49d1-aefd-...

https://tube.tchncs.de/videos/watch/fb592d80-f9f9-410b-a457-...

https://tube.tchncs.de/videos/watch/d047db82-9f79-4398-a5b4-...

Sorry you have to figure out which hole was the actual hole made by the charges in every case cannot - reedit this moment.
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[*] posted on 3-4-2021 at 22:04


Last video with one huge hole looks incredible good. Only 11,8 g of mixture? The profile 2,4 mm is a like after 10g ETN. Almost. Muhaha.
VoD about 5000m/s. Maybe 6000m/s. I estimate.
This is most powerful chlorate mixture, which I saw ever. And even is it cheap and easy. If is it truth, is it a new invent on energetic field of research...:cool:




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[*] posted on 4-4-2021 at 10:56


First attempt show good result: NaClO3 10...Oil 10W40 0,2 ...styrofoam 1,3. Mixed under diluter, evaporated, density 1.1,...dia 25mm, kick 700mg HE. OB - 1,1. Metal profile 2mm heavily deformed. Easy and efficiency mixture. A new invent I estimate. Your results are better. But any way, very powerful composition...:cool:




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[*] posted on 4-4-2021 at 11:21


Thanks LL, the interest in such energetics was in part inspired by guys like you and few others who has tested and shared the most unusual compositions ever seen! Other guy to mention is energeticheretic in youtube, who is still active and recently does show interest in chlrotes particularly. I don't know if he's a forum nember here, I hope at least he will read these posts, may find it interesting. Back to the compositions - yes the titles are all correct quantities etc, I am also surprized with such outcome. Hexamine is an interesting fuel by itself, since even while the heat of combustion is around 30MJ/kg range which is inferior to most hydrocarbons, hoowever I found an article that proves its thermal decomposition is EXOTHERMIC, even without oxygen! It also generates more gas due to nitrovens! Thats why I started my journey with it. What we have - a chlorate, which is decomposed exothermically even in the abscence of fuels, hexamine - also same behavior, so in combination it must be pure disaster - that is what I thought... All about matching the heat evolution and decomposition reactions in proper temperature ranges.. But unfortunately It still required third fuel due to the positive OB problem I already described, so rosin was added. But rosin cannot be just mixed into composition separately for some unknown reasons it gave inconsistent results, that's why I react them together first by cooking (Im sure they react some way its obvious from odour - unusual camphor like aroma is given off, interesting what is o tained). I think it still can be tuned, maybe switching to other fuels and so on, someone may find this interesting enough to try, thats why I'm sharing.
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[*] posted on 4-4-2021 at 11:26


Wow, LL you are FAST ;) I will be very obliged if you can see what PIB instead of PS does in this mixture, maybe PIB+hexamine... Wanted to try but no PIB nor possible at moment. Please! Also try higher densities, books it's saying that this is detrimental with cheddites, but I found the opposite! hand presseng to 1.3-1.4 only improved in my case(maybe also why they were so strong).
Also can I ask why negative OB is chosen often, something special about it? Edit: One more question LL - what if you use acetone instead of paint thinner (toluene mostly) in your preparation, since if I am not mistaken sodium chlorate is somewhat soluble in acetone, therefore you will take both the polymer and partially the oxidizer into solution!? Then, both will co-pricipitate on drying providing a very intimate mixture, what you can say?
[Edited on 4-4-2021 by papaya]

[Edited on 4-4-2021 by papaya]

[Edited on 4-4-2021 by papaya]
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[*] posted on 5-4-2021 at 06:02
3 attempts


I am lazy counting density, but all main is described, I estimate.
Why negative OB?....For example BP has OB - 21 and works as well.
Often is possible use pretty negative OB, because oxygen from oxidizer is used all. What is more important, than excess of smell smoke.
For styrofoam can be used mix toluene + acetone 1:1. Necessary try it. Easy test.
NaClO3 + hexamine was mixed under ethanol + water 1:1. Heating and evaporated at 70 C and grain through sieve 1mm.

Attachment: phpbRjvCY (971kB)
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[*] posted on 5-4-2021 at 10:15


Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
I am lazy counting density, but all main is described, I estimate.
Why negative OB?....For example BP has OB - 21 and works as well.
Often is possible use pretty negative OB, because oxygen from oxidizer is used all. What is more important, than excess of smell smoke.
For styrofoam can be used mix toluene + acetone 1:1. Necessary try it. Easy test.
NaClO3 + hexamine was mixed under ethanol + water 1:1. Heating and evaporated at 70 C and grain through sieve 1mm.



Estimate on VOD? Fast enough for shaped chargers maybe?
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[*] posted on 5-4-2021 at 11:20


About 3,5...max 4 km/s. Not more. But papaya mixtures gives over 5 Km/s. According videos. His is possible use it sure.



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[*] posted on 5-4-2021 at 17:25


@Brightthermite, I hope they can be used for shaped charges, I always wanted to try but did not yet, nor I have any experience with making those.

@LL, thank you for sharing your results, I see very interesting things there, needs some discussion.
First of all, your test #1, comprising only hydrocarbons is not much different from 90/10 kerosene mixture, so I'm not surprized it didn't work. Thing with these is not that they are not working, rather they need much much stronger initiation (10g) and maybe confinement. They might be strong, but not usable for us- look at the image attached (from Urbanski)
Screenshot.jpeg - 114kB
Too much liquid or "soft" material phlegmatize the mixture to extreme, therefore no initiation. What is needed I think is little liquid (oil) to fill the gaps, but also remainder fuel composed from hard particles - hexamine, vanilline - that was idea in my head.

Then, attempts #2 and #3 are very interesting, since they contain no oil or anything else, also #3 which is OB negative did much better job (did it punch hole btw?) than test #2 which is OB positive, since more fuel is more energy. This is in contradiction to what I said before I observed, that is - OB+ are much stronger than OB neutral ones. I've checked my recordings and I've found out that at a time I worked with KCLO3 mixtures only, not NaCLO3, to which I switched afterwards. Nevertheless what I told you was correct and I uploaded them as they are, you can see below.
OB++ : https://tube.tchncs.de/videos/watch/4136af46-575f-43c3-9672-...
OB 0: https://tube.tchncs.de/videos/watch/bfd7a78b-a177-41d7-9fa9-...
OB + : https://tube.tchncs.de/videos/watch/94afffd3-934d-4f18-9644-...

It will be surprizing if NaCLO3 vs KCLO3 really made this much difference, but I don't believe in that, nor I have a clue why our results disagree in this particular detail. Only other thing I can blame is that I switched from 20mm tubing parts to 25mm ones (without any purpose) maybe that was the reason.

I have there two more tests OB neutral, but with different oil/hexamine ratios, both were failures:
more oil: https://tube.tchncs.de/videos/watch/24b28409-5cfa-4cf5-af55-...
more hex: https://tube.tchncs.de/videos/watch/aec72358-140c-409e-bbeb-...

Afterwards I switched to sodium salts mostly because I could produce pure NaCLO3 and successes started, but with different compositions (rosin containing, vanillin, etc), so I cannot directly compare both chlorates.
Also it is unfortunate that you didn't test OB neutral one (correspondents to 2gr hexamine), which potentially could be the winning one (reaching those rosin/hexamine ones probably, who knows). Other thing is the containment strenght - I always use these type of plastic piping parts:
IMkG.jpg - 36kB

this is damn thick with 5mm walls, but no metal content, maybe if you use similar ones, you can get similar results ? Also dry sodium chlorate at 150°C, I get 0.5% weight loss on totally dry looking chlorate after that and also some crackling sound are observed, - i think some amount of hydrate is present after recrystallization (not just moisture).



[Edited on 6-4-2021 by papaya]

[Edited on 6-4-2021 by papaya]
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[*] posted on 6-4-2021 at 00:01


Oxygen balance is not holy grail of successful. Best ratio should by zero OB. But usually is used OB negative. Even to - 20. For maximal use oxygen. If you use different mixtures with a more fuels, different metal targets, different boosters, best result never you find out.

1) 10 or 12g is too weak charge. For relevant (basic) measurement is it 20 - 25g. For standard booster 800mg. At 12g the booster affects result. Weak charge looks a like stronger.
2)The filling must always be higher than wider. Therefore, for diameter of 25 mm it is necessary to use minimal 20g charge.
3) Because is used 20g is necessary used metal profile minimal thickness of 3mm. Maybe 4 mm.

A) I reccomend use your plast, is it good choice.
B) I reccomend use 3mm (or4) steel profile, long 100 mm for every attemtp use new metal.
C) always 800mg for booster.
D) always use exact 20g at 1,3g/cc, or same height (prepare always more, for example 25g)
E) always use same washer and others conditions. (stone?)
F) always use only one fuel counted on zero OB.
G) 3 best results testing again with OB + 5 and - 5 (Or - 10 + 10)

After this, is possible do step with mixing fuels.



[Edited on 6-4-2021 by Laboratory of Liptakov]




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[*] posted on 6-4-2021 at 03:43


Doctor, I can only sign under every recommendation you suggested here, they are fair enough. Targets - I used every scrap metal I had in reach,so yes some were 2mm, others 2.5mm, at least I measured them :D. Otherwise I need to buy that and transport, etc.. Quantities - I was aware that due to low height of charge it may be affected somewhat and 20g would be optimal. In fact that 11:12g charges after hand pressing occupy exactly half of that plastic tubing, there's even some production marking in the inner side and I always reach to that line! Two factors stopping me to use 20g, most imoortantly the NOISE since I'm not too far from where it can be heard, second is waste of chlorate, since as you know every success is after many failures. But this one I especially agree. When in past I used 20mm tubing it proveded adequate height (nerly x2 column) but as it turned out it is already a critical diameter.. You see all important factors show up only after some time and going back of course I could do it much more scientifically consistent. About OB - some very good information that negative is sometimes better, I find it very logical now, may at some point try to see the difference. Thanks!
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[*] posted on 6-4-2021 at 06:27


A lot researchers use sand pit. For 20g is enough 30 - 40 cm deep. Efficiency of charge will more powerful, but at same conditions can run measurement comparative. In a new conditions. Also is possible use water pipe plast. In-diameter is 26 mm and wall 3,2 mm. Very cheap and available in same store a like plastu water clutch, which you use. There may be concrete at the bottom in pit. Also you can try firstly your best charge 20g. And 20g with hexamine only and zero OB.



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[*] posted on 9-4-2021 at 12:28


Resluts from 20g NaCLO3/Hexamine ballanced mixture:
https://tube.tchncs.de/videos/watch/5fa9dbd8-4f50-4013-ac89-...
Didn't work properly... I mean there happened something very different from what it was intended for, look at slow motion. Dr., what was that?
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