Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login ]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
Author: Subject: Sulfur in my KCLO3 flash - Do I need it ?
Pyro_cat
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 243
Registered: 30-4-2018
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 2-4-2021 at 15:29
Sulfur in my KCLO3 flash - Do I need it ?



Nice successful cardboard tube salute with 7 to 3 Chlorate to Al with a dusting of sulfur. 3-4 gram total.

On my burn tests the sulfur mix flashed when lit with torch no sulfur little reaction.

Tried lighting the no sulfur mix in small pile a with a fuse hoping that has more heat to get things going. A few sparks but a fizzle and left over unburned material.

My experience has been I can get thermite going with sulfur containing Kno3 or chlorate flash.

With no sulfur chlorate - Al flash I think I am up against same problem, heat of ignition.

My chlorate is not that great came from bleach no re crystallization and my Al is not that fine.

They warn against mixing chlorate and sulfur, not safe look it up, and I know it can be done without and that's what I want to do.

I think I am on the right track, heat of ignition, I am just limited to my testing cause of the fireworks store had buy 1 get 2 free sale last year I made a lot of dogs bark too many times.

I guess what I should really work on is finer AL and higher quality chlorate. My chlorate must have both NaCl and KCl in it.

Except for the sulfur nice success today. First hot glue paper tube salute.

Paper towel plugs hot glued, fuse the middle, I predicted a dud but it worked.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Pyro_cat
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 243
Registered: 30-4-2018
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 2-4-2021 at 16:01


And PS

I got quality motor and pestle made from agate stone to powder the chlorate, by itself only of course, major improvement over the mini coffee grinder in burn test mixes.



View user's profile View All Posts By User
caterpillar
National Hazard
****




Posts: 459
Registered: 8-1-2012
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 2-4-2021 at 21:03


This mix is too sensitive.



Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
MadHatter
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1186
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Maine
Member Is Offline

Mood: Enjoying retirement

[*] posted on 3-4-2021 at 08:15
Sulfur


Pyro_cat, you're on the right track
however I wouldn't use sulfur in ANY
flash mixture. Too unpredictable.
Perchlorate is preferred because it's
safer. But if that's not available to you
just get the chlorate and aluminum as
fine as possible.

As for chlorate made from bleach you
do need a few crystallization steps.




From opening of NCIS New Orleans - It goes a BOOM ! BOOM ! BOOM ! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !
View user's profile View All Posts By User
greenlight
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 684
Registered: 3-11-2014
Member Is Offline

Mood: Energetic

[*] posted on 4-4-2021 at 08:21


Chlorate and sulfur no good.

The speed of deflagration issue with perchlorate or chlorate and aluminium flash is usually the aluminium. Most general aluminium powder is the atomised spherical particles which are harder to ignite. The one you want is dark grade fine auminium with sharp and irregular edges which ensure quicker reaction with the oxidizer.

I have tried perchlorate with spherical aluminium and the burn rate is quite terrible. Replace with flake aluminium and the improvement is huge.

[Edited on 4-4-2021 by greenlight]




The only use for an atomic bomb is to keep somebody else from using one.
George Wald
View user's profile View All Posts By User
MadHatter
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1186
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Maine
Member Is Offline

Mood: Enjoying retirement

[*] posted on 4-4-2021 at 12:21
Aluminum Powder


Greenlight, I'm with you on the aluminum
particle shape. Unfortunately, spherical shape
is the most efficient in terms of surface area
with regard to compactness. Horrible for
flash mixtures because of the lowest
surface area available. You really do need
good flake. 2 micron German Dark is the very
best I've ever used.

You're right about sulfur and chlorates. That's
a witch's mix that can blow without provocation.


[Edited on 2021/4/4 by MadHatter]




From opening of NCIS New Orleans - It goes a BOOM ! BOOM ! BOOM ! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Fulmen
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1465
Registered: 24-9-2005
Member Is Online

Mood: Bored

[*] posted on 4-4-2021 at 13:08


There are a few legitimate uses for chlorate/sulfur compounds. I have used it for match heads myself, and I believe it's still done (or at least was until recently) commercially as well. Do make sure you add a suitable anti-acid for long-term stability. These are usually bound with glue and with a terrible OB, so the sensitivity isn't that bad.

But these are special cases. I would strongly recommend against flash containing either of them, and certainly any mix with both. By mixing chlorates, sulfur and aluminum you have 3/4 of the dreaded "death mix", all you're missing is the nitrate.




We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Pyro_cat
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 243
Registered: 30-4-2018
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 5-4-2021 at 16:02



I was surprised when it actually went off, on the burn plate it was slow compared to commercial BP and nothing compared to that peroxide concoction they say don't mess with for good reason.

It was sensitive. Match head size amounts on the face of a full size sledge hammer as the anvil then hit with a mini sledge it did not take much. The stuff inside the little red firecrackers took a harder hit to make it pop.

I read on a fireworks forum that claimed DIY ball milling Al you will never get the quality of name brands like German Dark. I want a microscope to compare my different batches. I have to send for one. Naked eye the stuff I used in this test looked flaky like glitter and courser then the jar that air floats.

I saw a YouTube this old school guy in Italy making these huge shells scooping flash out of a big bag to make the burst charge scary to watch so much in one big bag this silvery mixture when grams make me nervous.

My next test when I get a sulfur free mix burn is to empty the stars out of a bottle rocket, wrap the empty part of the rocket tube with string and wood glue fill to reinforce, dry, fill with the mix cap and launch.

I rarely do ground salutes I usually do my EM testing in bottle rocket headers. Never had a failure but at least Chlorate is water soluble so if it does fail and lands in the water I don't have go retrieving it at night in canoe.

Saran wrap lining the inside the rocket header cavity blocks any chems from contacting each other but doesn't block ignition. I read thats a good idea with fuse sometimes too.


"you have 3/4 of the dreaded "death mix", all you're missing is the nitrate."

Oh thanks !







View user's profile View All Posts By User
Industrial Adhesive
Harmless
*




Posts: 14
Registered: 30-11-2018
Location: to be honest, I lost track
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 7-4-2021 at 09:04


i wouldent use sulfur. it produces a very shock, friction, and heat sensitive mixture.
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
Deathunter88
National Hazard
****




Posts: 462
Registered: 20-2-2015
Location: Beijing, China
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 7-4-2021 at 19:54


If you're in the US, just get the correct chemicals so you don't blow your fingers off. There's a reason 70/30 is a industry standard flash in pyrotechnics.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Pyro_cat
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 243
Registered: 30-4-2018
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 8-4-2021 at 11:05



I feel like if I send for chemicals I cheated.

Used my best batch of air float DIY aluminum and recrystallized KCLO3 and neither the torch or a fuse would light it.

Then cause that did not work and for scientific curiosity I intentionally used sulfur in real small batches, too small for the scale to be helpful, just kept adding ingredients based on what was left over on the burn plate till it seemed right, no leftover Al sulfur or Kclo3 then did some impact tests.

Sensitivity right up there with the peroxide concoctions just a tap with one of those tack hammers with the tuning forks on top that ring set it off.

My only impact tests were between the faces of two hammers one large one small which amplifies the impact but yes it is very very sensitive. Far more then ETN or at least my batch using the same method impact between two hammers.


If I am going to peruse making interesting fireworks I really do need to send for chems. One thing for sure is I learned a whole lot about the chemistry and behavior of these things starting with bleach and al foil that I never would have learned with 2 bags I ordered online and mixing them 70-30

View user's profile View All Posts By User
KCLcoal
Harmless
*




Posts: 5
Registered: 30-8-2019
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 16-4-2021 at 07:48


Although it is written repeatedly, contamination of chlorate with sulfur should be avoided.
Already at the beginning of the 20th century, chlorate / sulfur compositions were known to be dangerous.
It is said that the cause is that polythionic acid is generated to make the composition acidic and sulfur has a low melting point. Therefore, sulfur should not be mixed with chlorate except for compositions that require special flammability, such as matches.
In the words of Richard Feynman, it is "tickling the dragon's tail"
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Pyro_cat
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 243
Registered: 30-4-2018
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 17-4-2021 at 15:31



Has anyone successfully made 2 part flash with DIY ball mill aluminum ? Mine won't light.

Sulfur substitute ? Adding sugar didn't work.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
greenlight
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 684
Registered: 3-11-2014
Member Is Offline

Mood: Energetic

[*] posted on 18-4-2021 at 00:26


How long are you milling the aluminium for?



The only use for an atomic bomb is to keep somebody else from using one.
George Wald
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Pyro_cat
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 243
Registered: 30-4-2018
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 19-4-2021 at 20:11


Some batches I milled for weeks, it airfloats and looks almost like a liquid in a clear jar when shaken around.

Started with the cheapest Al foil from a dollar store its really thin in a blender. I think 1/2 inch ball bearings, larger then marbles.

First batches used marbles and made the Al for the thermite. Came out the same.

One batch I added carbon from a charcoal briquet but that would not burn by itself with the chlorate either.

Have another batch going for at least 2 weeks now. I think mixing in different size ball bearings might make a finer product.

Using marbles and steel at the same time probably bad idea one will likely mill the other.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Pyro_cat
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 243
Registered: 30-4-2018
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 26-4-2021 at 20:33



Finally success wo sulfur !

My ratio was way off, seems that with that DIY Al powder you have to add more Al. 70-30 was not working.

Maybe to make up for Al oxide contamination my best guess.






View user's profile View All Posts By User
Pyro_cat
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 243
Registered: 30-4-2018
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 26-4-2021 at 20:36


Not doing anymore flash without welding googles. A scale that reads 100th of a gram instead of .1 would be useful too.

Also impact test wo sulfur got to hit it much harder.

The torch took a bit more to light it but I think a fuse no problem haven't tested it almost no need. Fuse hotter then torch.


[Edited on 27-4-2021 by Pyro_cat]
View user's profile View All Posts By User

  Go To Top