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Author: Subject: Advice sought on CO
Bot0nist
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[*] posted on 23-6-2011 at 16:35


Yes, I agree about the paralytic effect in our lethal injection system. I saw on a "Bullshit" episode that a coroner did a study and found that a large percent of the inmates killed did not receive enough of the drug that renders them unconscious, so unfortunately after the paralytic was administered they could have been fully aware but completely unable to display any pain or fear. Gruesome. I think that method is meant to be easier on the executioner, not the executed.



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[*] posted on 23-6-2011 at 16:45


"Along with pancuronium bromide and potassium chloride, thiopental is used in 34 states of the U.S. to execute prisoners by lethal injection. A very large dose is given to ensure rapid loss of consciousness. Although death usually occurs within ten minutes of the beginning of the injection process, some have been known to take longer.[10] The use of sodium thiopental in execution protocols was challenged in court after a study in the medical journal The Lancet reported autopsies of executed inmates showed the level of thiopental in their bloodstream was insufficient to cause unconsciousness."

"On December 8, 2009, the State of Ohio became the first to use a single dose of sodium thiopental for its capital execution, following the failed use of the standard three-drug cocktail during a recent execution, due to inability to locate suitable veins. Kenneth Biros was executed using the single-drug method. Death was pronounced at 11:47 a.m., about ten minutes after the single-dose injection was administered. Including the time required to insert the IV lines and prepare the inmate, the entire process lasted 43 minutes.[11][12] Ohio executed a second man using sodium thiopental on January 7, 2010. Vernon Smith was pronounced dead eight minutes after the time of injection.[13] A third man was executed using the single-drug method on April 20, 2010. Daryl Durr was pronounced dead at 10:36 am.[14] Most recently, William Garner was executed in Ohio with sodium thiopental.[15]"

"The state of Washington is now the second state in the U.S. to use the single-dose sodium thiopental injections for death penalty executions. On September 10, 2010, Cal Coburn Brown was executed. His was the first execution in the state to use a single dose, single drug injection. His death was pronounced approximately one and a half minutes after the intravenous administration of five grams of the drug.[16]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_thiopental



[Edited on 24-6-2011 by Morgan]
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CaliusOptimus
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[*] posted on 23-6-2011 at 16:56


aura, im sorry to hear about your dog. :( im glad however, that youve chosen to keep your pet's end as painless as possible.

oxygen deprivation sounds like the only way to go. a dog-sized plastic tub and some tape around the lid. i suppose the CO2 concentration might get unpleasant....but it would be minimal.
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[*] posted on 23-6-2011 at 17:23


Because it is sometimes inevitable to kill a laboratoyr animal used for research purposes, it has been well studied what the most humane ways are to kill a given animal. You may be able to find out what the consensus is for dogs (or animals of similar size). Ofcourse, lacking proper aneastethics and tools, this may not be helpful.

I would never, ever take my own life whatever happens, but like many people I did think about what way I would prefer, and I guess the most painless way would be an explosive tied to the head. It would leave an awful mess to clean up, but it would be a very quick and probably painless way to go (I am a coward). Your brain/consiousnes is gone before the pain signal is processed.

Good luck and I hope you take the right decission




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simba
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[*] posted on 23-6-2011 at 18:46


Just drug your dog with ether or chloroform until hes gone. He will lose consciousness in a few minutes and will eventually die short after if you keep him breathing it.

If you use ether he will probably die of acute intoxication. If you use chloroform he will probably die from cardiac arrhythmia.

But in both cases, he will be fully unconsciousness and will feel no pain, just a little dizzy before he faints.
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[*] posted on 23-6-2011 at 19:05


http://research.uiowa.edu/animal/?get=euthanasia#Dogs and Cats
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[*] posted on 23-6-2011 at 21:40


This is really an unfortunate thread...

If you really can't get professional help then CO2 is obviously the best. I agree with what the wizard is in said, place him in an box of some sort, possible with a loosely fitting top, and plastic so the CO2 wont leak out the bottom, and add dry ice (not touching his skin!!) or a CO2 canister thats slightly open :(




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[*] posted on 24-6-2011 at 02:11


CO<sub>2</sub> is what stimulates the physiological breathing reflex... your dog will be desperately gasping for air in the frantic last minutes (or seconds) of life, thrashing around and trying to escape to fresh air. Not a great idea.

I've heard many cautionary tales related to working with liquid nitrogen in the lab, including two people who died in a fridge within which was previously placed a full dewar of liquid nitrogen. They simply walked in, lost conciousness and obviously never walked out. Shocking that neither of them was able to escape even when the first lost conciousness - a testament to the stealth and speed with which this is supposed to work. Draw from this apocryphal tale what you will.

As for how I will go out if I am afflicted with dementia? Barbiturate/alcohol/opiate overdose.




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[*] posted on 24-6-2011 at 02:40


A N2 canister is better than a CO2 canister.



hibernating...
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[*] posted on 24-6-2011 at 02:52


Well i have only one thing to say, if i lived in a place that couldn't provide the most basics of services i think i would shoot my dog and myself.

I am glad i dont live there ! but then they say living in australia is the the best place on the planet
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[*] posted on 24-6-2011 at 03:02


Actually, people, you should really appreciate your freedoms. If I lived in the US, I could just buy a gun and do it. Probably painful, but it won't take more than a sec for him to die. I can't do that here. This is exactly one of those places you were talking about, Azo.

[Edited on 24-6-2011 by Aura]
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[*] posted on 24-6-2011 at 04:28


i not only feel so sorry about your dog but i also feel sorry for you to.

try and get out of that hell hole
yes i say it again after hearing about your story i don't think i will be winging about anything anymore, some times we become gready and don't relise how lucky we are.
I wish you the very best of luck

regards azo
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[*] posted on 24-6-2011 at 05:39


Quote: Originally posted by Ramiel  
CO<sub>2</sub> is what stimulates the physiological breathing reflex... your dog will be desperately gasping for air in the frantic last minutes (or seconds) of life, thrashing around and trying to escape to fresh air. Not a great idea.


This is not true. It will die a peaceful death. Not like drowning
where it would be fighting to breath. This why people die
when the enter enclosed spaces with low O2 tensions,
don't even notice the lack of oxygen they just pass out-die.
Like putting a plastic bag over your head.

I would note in passing I shelve —

MP Battin & AG Lipman
Drug Use in Assisted Suicide and Euthanasia
Pharmaceutical Press
1996


djh
An single instance will serve to
display the rigor, and even
cruelty of Aurelian. On of his
soldiers had seduced the wife
of a his host. The guilty wretch
was fastened to two trees
forcible drawn toward each
other, and his limbs were torn
asunder by their sudden
Separation. The punishments
of Aurelian were terrible ; but he
had seldom occasion to punish
more than once the same offense.

Gibbons
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[*] posted on 24-6-2011 at 06:20


Quote: Originally posted by Ramiel  
CO<sub>2</sub> is what stimulates the physiological breathing reflex... your dog will be desperately gasping for air in the frantic last minutes (or seconds) of life, thrashing around and trying to escape to fresh air. Not a great idea.
I have observed lab rats euthanized with CO2 many times. There is no gasping or thrashing around. They just go to sleep. Euthanasia using CO2 is approved by the American Veterinary Medical Association.
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[*] posted on 24-6-2011 at 06:30


OK, friends, Morgan's documentary persuaded me to try using nitrogen gas instead of CO to put the dog to sleep. Does anyone have any advice on how to get it, or maybe manufacture it at home-yes, it may sound silly but I'm a Math teacher with no knowledge of chemistry. I'd appreciate some advice. Thank you.
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[*] posted on 24-6-2011 at 06:39


Surely you could just buy a small canister of nitrogen, I highly doubt it's restricted in any way. Price isn't that bad either. If you can't get it locally, try an online vendor.

If not try dry ice. CO<sub>2</sub> sounds promising.




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[*] posted on 24-6-2011 at 07:04


Sorry about your dog.:( For nitrogen, see if there are any welding stores near you. They usually rent out canisters of many different gases. They sometimes even have liquid nitrogen! However, If I were you, I would want something to work faster. Chloroform is a bit harder to obtain, but It is great. If you put it on a cotton ball in a jar, and drop a bug in there, the bug usually is deceased in a few seconds. All you have to do is put a wash cloth with chloroform on it over the dog's nose. It will not be a bit painful- and at first, the dog will be put into a deep sleep. I am not sure how long it would take him to pass away, but you might have to rehydrate the cloth every fifteen minutes until he is gone. Chloroform is a beautiful, sweet smelling liquid (smells good) that is inexpensive and usually easy to get. Becuase of its properties, it can not hurt you if absorbed through the skin, and I am not sure about ingestion, however, the fumes it releases were once used to anestisiate (sp?) someone before a medical procedure, and can be deadly if inhaled after a long period of time. Therefore, do this away from your family. The best part is, your dog will be able to pass away while smelling a sweet-smelling chemical. If you are unsure of how to obtain chloroform, you can look up how to make it. It is not hard, and because you are not needing it for chemistry, you don't have to purify it. I am no way obligating you to use this over nitrogen, however, if I was is your place, I would want chloroform. And again, sorry about your dog.



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[*] posted on 24-6-2011 at 07:47


Nitrogen would be very fast and a lot more comfortable than chloroform. Even diethyl ether would be better than chloroform even though it has a higher LD50 for inhalation. CHCl3 is a crappy anesthetic, only works good in the movies. Try it yourself, its nasty, uncomfortable, and twitchy.

[Edited on 24-6-2011 by Bot0nist]




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[*] posted on 24-6-2011 at 07:56


Chloroform is out of question anyway, because it's highly restricted. I'm searching online furiously right now for nytrogen and can't find a single welding store, tyre service, not even a paintball store.


[Edited on 24-6-2011 by Aura]
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[*] posted on 24-6-2011 at 08:01


Quote: Originally posted by Aura  
Thanks, Morgan, but it's about killing a dog, not a human. There are probably many ways to do it, but I need to do it quickly and painlessly, because I don't have the heart to do it otherwise. I'll go check those links anyway.
Ooops, I watched only 7 mins of the first one and already freaked. That's why I dream of something simple, like pressing a button-and there goes my dog!


like pressing a button-and there goes my dog!



“Recently I found another tale of rough life for mules in the army. It
was in the book "Facts Worth Knowing: Selected Mainly from the
Scientific American", published in 1893.”
***************************************************
Instantaneous Photography:

We are indebted to Gen. Henry L. Abbot, U.S.A., in charge of the
Engineer School of Application, Willet's Point, N. Y., for copies of
photographs illustrating the remarkable sensitiveness of photo-gelatine
plates, which we will briefly describe. It became necessary, one day,
at Willet's Point, to destroy a worthless mule, and the subject was
made the occasion of giving useful instruction to the military class
there stationed. The mule was placed in proper position before a
photo-camera and duly focused. Upon the animal's forehead a cotton bag
was tied containing six ounces of dynamite. The slide of the camera was
supported by a fuse; the camera fuse and the dynamite on the mule's
head being connected in the same electrical circuit, as shown by the
wires in our engraving. On pressing the key so as to send the
electricity through the wires both the fuse and the dynamite were
simultaneously fired; the camera slide and the head of the animal fell
nearly together. The photosensitive plate was impressed with a picture
of the headless creature, still standing, before its body had time to
fall.

Fig. 1 of our illustrations shows the animal, camera, and electrical
wires in position for firing. Fig. 2 shows the appearance of the animal
after the explosion, as taken on the photo-plate.

http://tinyurl.com/6agkwxs
http://tinyurl.com/6knxezv
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[*] posted on 24-6-2011 at 08:07


Thanks, it is instructive, but I can't just order explosives at a store. I even thought of igniting a LPG cylinder (this is easy to get) somewhere in a remote area, but according to the specs, they are supposedly hard to detonate. It would rather burn the animal-gruesome. If that's what I wanted, I may as well pour gasoline on him, but hey, I'm not a torturer. It needs to be painless.








[Edited on 24-6-2011 by Aura]
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[*] posted on 24-6-2011 at 08:10


Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston  

I would never, ever take my own life whatever happens, but like many people I did think about what way I would prefer, and I guess the most painless way would be an explosive tied to the head. It would leave an awful mess to clean up, but it would be a very quick and probably painless way to go (I am a coward). Your brain/consiousnes is gone before the pain signal is processed.


M80-Suicide.jpg - 571kB

Figure 1

Victim propped against bedroom door
with extensive skull injuries and
avulsed brain. Note handle of hatchet
(arrow) wedged under door behind
the deceased.

Some years ago someone whose name I don't
have permission to use, and as I don't know
if this was published ..... Sent me a copy of
this for review/suggestions.

M-80 Fireworks Explosion: A Bizarre Case of Suicide.

----
JERRY NACHMAN
Bizarre is the norm if you're a coroner
[This a few years latter.]

MEDICAL examiners, like many other like many
members of a profession, meet at conventions each
year.

While the day's business is usually the presentation
of scientific papers, there is usually a nightly gabfest
in someone’s hotel suite. Coroners and medical
examiners from around the country screen slides of
their most unusual cases.

In a darkened hotel room, the slide projector's fan
- and the clink of ice in cocktail - glasses provide odd
background noise as the presenting doctor describes
0a case -- and the sometimes-subtle signs nature
chooses to reveal how a life ends. .

It was at one of these conventions in Chicago that I
saw a slide of a naked man on a stainless steel table.
The pathologist described the visible wounds.
Someone setting on - the floor asked if a magnet had
been applied to the coins found in the deceased's
clothing.

When the answer came back "yea" and the results
described as positive, the smiling doctors hem up
their glasses in salute: it seems that in serious
lightning strikes, the electrical charge can be so
strong as to magnetize all the metallic objects on the
victim's body, including non-magnetic items like coins.

This interchange of grisly trivia has contributed to
much of what we know about sex crimes, child abuse,
environmental hazards and heretofore unknown forms
of suicide.

And soon, thanks to the curiosity of three detectives
in the New York Police Dept., the medical literature
will have a horrible new entry.

This case began late last month in Queens, at 54th
St. and 31st Ave. informed police found the body of a
37year-old man in the courtyard of a residental
complex.

The victim's face had literally been blasted away:
Queens Homicide Detective Jim Curran tentative!
assessed the death as a shotgun homicide.

But there were loose ends. No visible exit wound
And some strange findings by Dr. Josette Montez the
Queens deputy medical examiner. A penny was found
in the victim's head, along with another foreign object
The longer you're a cop, the less willing you are to
accept the obvious. The veteran Curran had too many
questions He called the department’s Bomb Squad
and asked then to visit the scene.

Detectives Peter Dalton and Kevin Barry, not usually
partners, worked together on this case. They
reexamined the place where the body was found.
More pennies were on the ground. They widened the
search. Forty-five feet away they made a gruesome
discovery—a piece of a human lip. And yet more
pennies. Half a football field away—in the opposite
direction—a piece of an ear.

The bomb experts also found aluminum foil, a bit of
which had the impression of a penny etched on it.
They drew a map of the places they'd found tissue,
pennies, tape and foil. The lines intersected precisely
where the body was found.

It was time to meet with the medical examiner. They
looked at X-rays and measured holes in the mouth
and tongue. Calipers and metric rulers sized them at
the exact diameter of a penny.

Detective Barry exhaled and voiced his theory. The
victim had taken a Super M-80 firecracker,
surrounded it with loose pennies, wrapped it all in
aluminum foil and taped the package together.

He left the apartment in which he lived with his
father, went to the courtyard and placed the
homemade bomb—roughly the size of a small apple—
into his mouth and lit the fuse.

The detectives phoned the victim's brother. They
learned the victim had argued with his father shortly
before his body was found. The police received
permission to enter the apartment and found
aluminum foil and masking tape on the kitchen
counter, a collection of pennies in the deceased's
bedroom.

So in some Journal of forensic pathology to be
published soon, medical detectives will learn about a
new form of death—suicide-by fireworks—and shake
their heads in horror and wonder.

New York Post 6ix88



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[*] posted on 24-6-2011 at 10:21


I couldn't find nitrogen anywhere. Still, I found another inert gas, helium for party baloons. Since it's about oxygen deprivation, will it do the trick, what do you think? A nice gas chamber to put my dog in (he's quite large). I dug up the internet and I read he'll be unconscious within seconds, painlessly.
But I'd rather ask you than trust wikipedia or other web sources.





[Edited on 24-6-2011 by Aura]
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[*] posted on 24-6-2011 at 12:07


Helium is lighter then air, and will leave the container. CO2 is heavier then air and will stay in.



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[*] posted on 24-6-2011 at 12:18


First, helium is much easier for me to get and that's a MAJOR plus. Also, some say CO2 is painful. I'm just a layperson so I try to listen to every opinion and take no risks.
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