Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login ]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
 Pages:  1  
Author: Subject: Production of Hydrochloric Acid
Chemistry Alchemist
National Hazard
****




Posts: 403
Registered: 2-8-2011
Location: Australia
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 26-9-2011 at 08:41
Production of Hydrochloric Acid


Hydrochloric acid is one of my favorite acids, but i havent managed to go to the shops recently to buy any, and i really need it for somthing, and would try anything to make it. well maybe not anything but anything that i can do :)

Phosphoric Acid reacts with Sodium Chloride to form Sodium Phosphate and HCl

H3PO4 + NaCl = NaH2PO4 + HCl

could i do the same reaction but replace the sodium chloride with Copper chloride? or will the HCl react with the copper phosphate?

[Edited on 26-9-2011 by Chemistry Alchemist]




View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
AndersHoveland
Hazard to Other Members, due to repeated speculation and posting of untested highly dangerous procedures!
*****




Posts: 1986
Registered: 2-3-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 26-9-2011 at 08:48


Can hydrochloric acid actually be displaced from sodium chloride, using phosphoric acid, which is a weak acid? Someone had previously asked this question in the forum, and I was not sure about the answer.

But yes, if it works for NaCl, it will also work for CuCl2.

At room temperature, HCl reacts with sodium phosphate, to make sodium chloride and phosphoric acid. The H3PO4 is displaced, since HCl is a strong acid and H3PO4 is a "weak" acid. But distilling the mixture could likely cause the reverse reaction, since HCl is much more volatile than H3PO4.

View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
Chemistry Alchemist
National Hazard
****




Posts: 403
Registered: 2-8-2011
Location: Australia
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 26-9-2011 at 08:53


I done a small scale reaction of 85% phosphoric acid with sodium chloride, after a while there was a slight smell of HCl, so if it is possible with Copper Chloride, just dissolve asmuch CuCl2 into little water and then poor in the acid and then filter the insoluble copper phosphate leaving HCl... or could i do it with out the water?



View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
nezza
National Hazard
****




Posts: 315
Registered: 17-4-2011
Location: UK
Member Is Offline

Mood: phosphorescent

[*] posted on 26-9-2011 at 10:51


85% phosphoric acid can be used to make HCl quite easily. The deciding feature is the volatility of the acid, not necessarily the strength. Although the reaction

H3PO4 + NaCl <> NaH2PO4 + HCl

is shifted well to the left warming the mixture causes the volatile HCl to escape and the reaction proceeds to the right. The same reaction can be used to make pure HBr as phosphoric acid is not an oxidising agent like sulphuric acid. HBr is an even stronger acid than HCl. I have performed both of these syntheses. I don't know if you can use it to make HI as well as I have not tried that reaction yet.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
simba
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 175
Registered: 20-5-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 26-9-2011 at 11:15


Quote: Originally posted by nezza  
85% phosphoric acid can be used to make HCl quite easily. The deciding feature is the volatility of the acid, not necessarily the strength. Although the reaction

H3PO4 + NaCl <> NaH2PO4 + HCl

is shifted well to the left warming the mixture causes the volatile HCl to escape and the reaction proceeds to the right. The same reaction can be used to make pure HBr as phosphoric acid is not an oxidising agent like sulphuric acid. HBr is an even stronger acid than HCl. I have performed both of these syntheses. I don't know if you can use it to make HI as well as I have not tried that reaction yet.


It will work for making HI from iodide salt also.

Another good method for making HCl is sodium chloride + bisulfate salt.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
blogfast25
Thought-provoking Teacher
*****




Posts: 10334
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Old Blighty
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 26-9-2011 at 11:26


Much better with 'Draino': conc. H2SO4. Kvetched to death here if you look for it...



View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
SmashGlass
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 52
Registered: 25-1-2011
Location: Scandinavia
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 6-10-2011 at 13:13


Simplest way is to get some sulfuric acid (old car battery acid if
you are really desperate) and salt NaCl. Make sure you got
something to house th reaction in as it is a bit exothermic and
somewhere to bubble the gas through like in water, ether or
methanol - otherwise instant tear gas WWI style.




If it ain't broke don't fix it....
Now where are my screwdrivers? ;)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
blogfast25
Thought-provoking Teacher
*****




Posts: 10334
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Old Blighty
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 7-10-2011 at 08:24


Quote: Originally posted by SmashGlass  
Simplest way is to get some sulfuric acid (old car battery acid if
you are really desperate) and salt NaCl.


Dilute H2SO4, like car battery acid, doesn't work for HCl generators. You need 95 % or higher (for best yields) H2SO4.

[Edited on 7-10-2011 by blogfast25]




View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
SmashGlass
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 52
Registered: 25-1-2011
Location: Scandinavia
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 11-10-2011 at 10:18


Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Quote: Originally posted by SmashGlass  
Simplest way is to get some sulfuric acid (old car battery acid if
you are really desperate) and salt NaCl.


Dilute H2SO4, like car battery acid, doesn't work for HCl generators. You need 95 % or higher (for best yields) H2SO4.

[Edited on 7-10-2011 by blogfast25]


My apologies you are correct. Old car batts contain mostly water.
I have only used 95-98% Sulfuric acid for this myself.
But in my defence I did say "If you are really desperate"
I didn't say how to get the sulfuric out of it and refine it.




If it ain't broke don't fix it....
Now where are my screwdrivers? ;)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Chemistry Alchemist
National Hazard
****




Posts: 403
Registered: 2-8-2011
Location: Australia
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 12-10-2011 at 07:13


Couldnt you just boil down a old car battery?




View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
rstar
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 138
Registered: 22-9-2011
Location: Besides valence shell
Member Is Offline

Mood: Dark

[*] posted on 12-10-2011 at 07:47


You can react NaCl with NaHSO4 if you don't have access to H2SO4

Here's a NurdRage video on that :
Preparation of Hydrochloric acid




"A tidy laboratory means a lazy chemist "
- Jöns Jacob Berzelius
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
simba
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 175
Registered: 20-5-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 12-10-2011 at 07:52


Quote: Originally posted by Chemistry Alchemist  
Couldnt you just boil down a old car battery?


Yes...but some of the sulfuric acid will start to fume as the concentration rises.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Chemistry Alchemist
National Hazard
****




Posts: 403
Registered: 2-8-2011
Location: Australia
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 12-10-2011 at 09:00


doesn't that mean the the acid is getting a higher concentration? more then 70% or somthing?



View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
simba
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 175
Registered: 20-5-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 12-10-2011 at 09:18


Quote: Originally posted by Chemistry Alchemist  
doesn't that mean the the acid is getting a higher concentration? more then 70% or somthing?


Yes, but a small portion of it will evaporate along with the water if you want to get a high concentration, like 95-98%.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
ThePhDChemist
banned





Posts: 23
Registered: 9-10-2011
Location: Bosnia and Herzegovina
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 15-10-2011 at 08:48


Don't bother with it. I will soon make video HOW TO MAKE HYDROCHLORIC ACID FROM SODIUM CHLORIDE AND ELECTRICITY, it will be CHEAP!
From sodium chloride I am making chlorine, hydrogen chloride, sodium hypochlorite, sodium chlorate, sodium perchlorate, sodium hydroxide....
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Retard-3000
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 55
Registered: 17-11-2010
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 18-10-2011 at 08:02


@ ThePhDChemist, you said in a previous thread that you were interested in chemistry and wanted to learn about it, and then you comment saying you'll make a host of videos on chemical synthesis and quite honestly i don't see this happening anytime soon judging by your lack of knowledge in chemistry, i doubt you have the knowledge and equipment to perform some of the tasks you have mentioned in previous threads let alone do it safely.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
ScienceSquirrel
Super Moderator
*******




Posts: 1863
Registered: 18-6-2008
Location: Brittany
Member Is Offline

Mood: Dogs are pets but cats are little furry humans with four feet and self determination! :(

[*] posted on 18-10-2011 at 15:39


Quote: Originally posted by ThePhDChemist  
Don't bother with it. I will soon make video HOW TO MAKE HYDROCHLORIC ACID FROM SODIUM CHLORIDE AND ELECTRICITY, it will be CHEAP!
From sodium chloride I am making chlorine, hydrogen chloride, sodium hypochlorite, sodium chlorate, sodium perchlorate, sodium hydroxide....


Electrochemistry is seldom the cheapest option.
That is why it is avoided industrially unless there is no alternative or there are huge amounts of cheap off peak nuclear or hydroelectricity available.
It would cost me far more to run a practical cell capable of making say 100ml of 10% sodium hypochlorite a day than I could buy the same amount of the compound in 2.5 litre drums.
I am paying less than domestic rate for my electricity but it is still a lot more than a big chlor alkali plant is paying.


[Edited on 18-10-2011 by ScienceSquirrel]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
ThePhDChemist
banned





Posts: 23
Registered: 9-10-2011
Location: Bosnia and Herzegovina
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 18-10-2011 at 15:42


Quote: Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel  
Quote: Originally posted by ThePhDChemist  
Don't bother with it. I will soon make video HOW TO MAKE HYDROCHLORIC ACID FROM SODIUM CHLORIDE AND ELECTRICITY, it will be CHEAP!
From sodium chloride I am making chlorine, hydrogen chloride, sodium hypochlorite, sodium chlorate, sodium perchlorate, sodium hydroxide....


Electrochemistry is seldom the cheapest option.
That is why it is avoided industrially unless there is no alternative or there are huge amounts of cheap off peak nuclear or hydroelectricity available.
It would cost me far more to run a practical cell capable of making say 100ml of 10% sodium hypochlorite a day than I could buy the same amount of the compound in 2.5 litre drums.
I am paying less than domestic rate for my electricity but it is still a lot more than a big chlor alkali plant is paying.


[Edited on 18-10-2011 by ScienceSquirrel]


Really? :o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o
I tought it is cheapest! :(
:mad::mad::mad:
View user's profile View All Posts By User
ScienceSquirrel
Super Moderator
*******




Posts: 1863
Registered: 18-6-2008
Location: Brittany
Member Is Offline

Mood: Dogs are pets but cats are little furry humans with four feet and self determination! :(

[*] posted on 18-10-2011 at 15:57


Your unit cost depends on your situation.
Stick your aluminium plant next to a giant Norwegian hydro plant and agree to take all their off peak power and you will get it for buttons.
Most amateur chemists are not in this happy state and they are paying the standard domestic tariff which is not cheap in most places, around here you are looking at EUR 10 to 20 cents per KWh.
I pay a bit less than that but I use it to boil beer which I sell but it is still a major cost of my business.
If I wanted to use the power to make sodium hypochlorite and persulphate which I use as barrel and floor washes my own home brew gear would cost far more than buying the product in.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Aqua_Fortis_100%
National Hazard
****




Posts: 302
Registered: 24-12-2006
Location: Brazil
Member Is Offline

Mood:

[*] posted on 18-10-2011 at 22:43


There is a way to HCl that I never see a person using, but if works, from standpoint of precursors, the most OTC... Just NaCl, sand and water...

Mixed sand and NaCl are strongly heated (~700°C) and a stream of water vapour is passed over it..

2 NaCl + SiO2 + H2O --> Na2SiO3 + 2 HCl

The only drawback is the need of high temperature and a system/pipes that stands to this temperature without melting or reacting with HCl...

In this thread I showed I patent I found that (but using CaCl2)..

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=11875#...

Unfortunately not tried it yet :(

[Edited on 19-10-2011 by Aqua_Fortis_100%]




"The secret of freedom lies in educating people, whereas the secret of tyranny is in keeping them ignorant."
View user's profile View All Posts By User
simba
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 175
Registered: 20-5-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 19-10-2011 at 03:36


Quote: Originally posted by Aqua_Fortis_100%  
There is a way to HCl that I never see a person using, but if works, from standpoint of precursors, the most OTC... Just NaCl, sand and water...

Mixed sand and NaCl are strongly heated (~700°C) and a stream of water vapour is passed over it..

2 NaCl + SiO2 + H2O --> Na2SiO3 + 2 HCl

The only drawback is the need of high temperature and a system/pipes that stands to this temperature without melting or reacting with HCl...

In this thread I showed I patent I found that (but using CaCl2)..

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=11875#...

Unfortunately not tried it yet :(

[Edited on 19-10-2011 by Aqua_Fortis_100%]


Very interesting indeed...maybe some catalyst could lower the temperature of the reaction.

One problem one could be facing also, is cooling the very hot hcl gas that will come.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Aqua_Fortis_100%
National Hazard
****




Posts: 302
Registered: 24-12-2006
Location: Brazil
Member Is Offline

Mood:

[*] posted on 19-10-2011 at 16:12


shivas, maybe with some eutetic mix of chlorides (Ca, Na, K, etc) you will need lower temps..

TONS of eutetic mix with respective temperatures can be found here:

http://ras.material.tohoku.ac.jp/~molten/ ---->

http://ras.material.tohoku.ac.jp/~molten/molten_eut_query1.p...

ex:

BaCl2-CaCl2-NaCl / Composition (mol percent): 16.3-46.9-36.7 / Eutectic Temp.: 440 °C

To me, wasting BaCl2 to make HCl is like wasting 70% HNO3 to make agricultural ammonium nitrate .. So IMHO only compositions using NaCl-KCl-CaCl2 would be interesting to this endeavour.. But thats may not be your case, if BaCO3 is widely avaliable to you...

[Edited on 20-10-2011 by Aqua_Fortis_100%]




"The secret of freedom lies in educating people, whereas the secret of tyranny is in keeping them ignorant."
View user's profile View All Posts By User
SmashGlass
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 52
Registered: 25-1-2011
Location: Scandinavia
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 19-10-2011 at 16:30


Quote: Originally posted by shivas  

Very interesting indeed...maybe some catalyst could lower the temperature of the reaction.


Hmmmm.... I hear sulfuric acid can be used as a catalyst.
I think you could get this reaction to work at below room temperatures with this catalyst.
Just drop enough onto the NaCl whilst stirring over an ice bath.

Oh just wait a minute!
I think we just went full circle on this.
Hehehe
:D

Talk about making something very simple waaay more complex than what it was originally.

Sorry for ruining your fun everyone.




If it ain't broke don't fix it....
Now where are my screwdrivers? ;)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Aqua_Fortis_100%
National Hazard
****




Posts: 302
Registered: 24-12-2006
Location: Brazil
Member Is Offline

Mood:

[*] posted on 19-10-2011 at 16:42


Quote: Originally posted by SmashGlass  
Quote: Originally posted by shivas  

Very interesting indeed...maybe some catalyst could lower the temperature of the reaction.


Hmmmm.... I hear sulfuric acid can be used as a catalyst.
I think you could get this reaction to work at below room temperatures with this catalyst.
Just drop enough onto the NaCl whilst stirring over an ice bath.

Oh just wait a minute!
I think we just went full circle on this.
Hehehe
:D

Talk about making something very simple waaay more complex than what it was originally.

Sorry for ruining your fun everyone.



100% agreed. Much less mess and easier, cleaner synth..

But what you do if you realise that from yesterday to today the concentrated sufuric has run out of shelfs and you can buy it only max 2 lts per month (for individuals) and your name will be going to police list? This is the situation of my country, unfortunately..
I can use 30% battery acid too, which is free, but is too much water to get out and is messy..

Well, banning H2SO4 is actually very hard (almost like banning water), but watch out the pigs.. They insist in put on market impure chemicals, erase others..

This is why I said
Quote:
... but if works, FROM STANDPOINT OF PRECURSORS, the most OTC...


Who can prevent you to get NaCl, sand, water and heat?
Thats the point..




"The secret of freedom lies in educating people, whereas the secret of tyranny is in keeping them ignorant."
View user's profile View All Posts By User
SmashGlass
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 52
Registered: 25-1-2011
Location: Scandinavia
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 19-10-2011 at 17:27


OK then.
If that is what you are after, how illegal is pottery in your country?
You can custom make your own crucibles that can channel the HCl gas into water.
Glazed ceramics are resistant to heat and HCl.
This would take the sand/salt mix on the bottom and could be placed on hot coals.
Or a Bunsen burner for the higher tech setups.
Viola!
So everyone join up to your local community college pottery classes and start firing some ceramics.
Pottery it's not just fun it's cool too ! :cool:




If it ain't broke don't fix it....
Now where are my screwdrivers? ;)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
 Pages:  1  

  Go To Top