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Author: Subject: HMX, FOX-7, TKX-50, e.t.c
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[*] posted on 8-11-2013 at 02:00
HMX, FOX-7, TKX-50, e.t.c


Does anybody know the list of the explosives that they are more powerful or similar to RDX ?

Like HMX, FOX-7, TKX-50, CL-20 e.t.c. and see with one is possible to manufacture them from an amateur chemist.

[Edited on 8-11-2013 by underground]
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[*] posted on 8-11-2013 at 02:36


Try DPX1 explosive or (E,E)-3,4-bis(oximomethyl)furoxan. all what you need is nitromethane (CH3NO2), NaOH and HCl.
This explosive has been synthesized by Davin G. Piercey and Joerg Stierstorfer in Thomas Klapotke laboratory, Germany.

Below is the copy-past of the abstract of the paper:

"Energetic furoxan (E,E)-3,4-bis(oximomethyl)furoxan (DPX1) was synthesized in 75 % yield, using a literature procedure, from a precursor readily available in one step from nitromethane. DPX1 was characterized for the first time as an energetic material in terms of calculated performance (Vdet = 8245 m s−1; Pcj = 29.0 GPa) and measured sensitivity (impact: 10 J; friction: 192 N; Tdec: 168 °C). DPX1 exhibits a sensitivity less than that of RDX, and a performance significantly higher than 2,4,6-trinitrotoluene (TNT)."

however, you must be careful with this material because it slowly decomposes at room temperature.

Dany.



Attachment: (E,E)-3,4-bis(oximomethyl)furoxan (DPX1).pdf (282kB)
This file has been downloaded 948 times





[Edited on 8-11-2013 by Dany]
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[*] posted on 8-11-2013 at 02:59


What about other explosives close to Vdet of  9000 m/s and above
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[*] posted on 8-11-2013 at 03:22


Quote: Originally posted by underground  
What about other explosives close to Vdet of  9000 m/s and above


Check this paper on the synthesis and properties of N-alkylhydrazinium nitroformate.

http://nopr.niscair.res.in/bitstream/123456789/8624/1/IJCT%2...

Dany.
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[*] posted on 8-11-2013 at 11:40


Quote: Originally posted by Dany  
Quote: Originally posted by underground  
What about other explosives close to Vdet of  9000 m/s and above


Check this paper on the synthesis and properties of N-alkylhydrazinium nitroformate.

http://nopr.niscair.res.in/bitstream/123456789/8624/1/IJCT%2...

Dany.


Hydrazine is a really toxic material to play with it...
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[*] posted on 8-11-2013 at 13:05


There are many compounds that break the 9km/s mark but this is not the only metric that determines "performance."

Aminonitroguanidine nitrate @ 9750m/s calculated
Ammonium dinitroguanidine @ 9055m/s calculated
4,4’-Dinitro-3,3’-diazenofuroxan at 9800m/s calculated

Salts of bis(2,2-dinitroethyl)nitramine
Hydrazinium salt: 9305m/s calculated
Guanidine salt: 9504m/s calculated
Diaminoguanidine salt: 9314m/s calculated
Triaminoguanidine salt: 10004m/s calculated

[Edited on 8-11-2013 by Praxichys]




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[*] posted on 8-11-2013 at 15:14


Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys  
There are many compounds that break the 9km/s mark but this is not the only metric that determines "performance."

Aminonitroguanidine nitrate @ 9750m/s calculated
Ammonium dinitroguanidine @ 9055m/s calculated
4,4’-Dinitro-3,3’-diazenofuroxan at 9800m/s calculated

Salts of bis(2,2-dinitroethyl)nitramine
Hydrazinium salt: 9305m/s calculated
Guanidine salt: 9504m/s calculated
Diaminoguanidine salt: 9314m/s calculated
Triaminoguanidine salt: 10004m/s calculated

[Edited on 8-11-2013 by Praxichys]

On that note, something that I have intending to research is the question, why is speed at which the detonation wave propagates important at all? Should not the speed at which the gasses from detonation expand be more important?
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[*] posted on 8-11-2013 at 15:42


The speed at which the gases expand is related to their pressure and temperature, which is related to the speed at which the solid/gas transition and energy release happens (the velocity of detonation).

Also related is density, ΔH, molecular weight of gases produced, and their molar amounts.




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[*] posted on 8-11-2013 at 20:14


Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys  
There are many compounds that break the 9km/s mark but this is not the only metric that determines "performance."

Aminonitroguanidine nitrate @ 9750m/s calculated
Ammonium dinitroguanidine @ 9055m/s calculated
4,4’-Dinitro-3,3’-diazenofuroxan at 9800m/s calculated

Salts of bis(2,2-dinitroethyl)nitramine
Hydrazinium salt: 9305m/s calculated
Guanidine salt: 9504m/s calculated
Diaminoguanidine salt: 9314m/s calculated
Triaminoguanidine salt: 10004m/s calculated

[Edited on 8-11-2013 by Praxichys]


It really looks very interesting

3,3’-Dinitro-4,4’-azoxyfurazan looks really difficult to made

Ammonium Dinitroguanidine looks really interesting, looks easier to manufacture that other HE's (unfortunately the link for ADNG does not work)

3-amino-1-nitroguanidine nitrate (ANGN) looks also possible to make but it requires hydrazine

has anybody made some of them ?



[Edited on 9-11-2013 by underground]
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[*] posted on 9-11-2013 at 01:41
Multi nitro guanidine ?


Here is the paper for 1,2 - dinitroguanidine.

Im not sure but I think that Nitroguanidine Nitrate exist.

http://www.chemspider.com/Chemical-Structure.16372117.html

And so does Dinitroguanidine nitrate ?

Attachment: phpfMx2S8 (129kB)
This file has been downloaded 615 times

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[*] posted on 9-11-2013 at 02:27


Ammonium Dinitroguanidine looks closer to manufacture from an amateur chemist

guanidine nitrate --> nitroguanidine --> dinitroguanidine --> ammonium dinitroguanidine

I do not know if dinitroguanidine nitrate exists and what properties have.
Ammonium Dinitroguanidine looks to be stable at all, but how you can make Ammonium Dinitroguanidine from Dinitroguanidine ?

I also wondering if you can make dinitroguanidine with a common nitration of h2so4/nitrate salt of nitroguanidine.

Guanidine salts looks really interesting and that you can play a lot with them



[Edited on 9-11-2013 by underground]
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[*] posted on 9-11-2013 at 02:47


I wonder if you used nitronium cation would this happen. Maybe nitration using N2O5 ?

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[*] posted on 9-11-2013 at 08:54


It should be amazed if someone with that knowledge was going to inform us
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[*] posted on 9-11-2013 at 23:10


After a good read of the PDF were the DubaiAmateurRocketry mentioned above, i saw that dinitroguanidine it is not as easy to make as i though and it needs some obscure chemicals needed like Oleum e.t.c.

"Synthesis of 1,2-dinitroguanidine from nitroguanidine.

To a mixture of 20 ml of 98% HNO3 and 36 ml of 60% oleum at 010C was added dropwise a solution of 14 g of nitroguanidine in 20 ml of 98% nitric acid. Then 15 ml of 60% oleum and 2 ml of98% nitric acid was added, the mixture was kept at this temperature for 1 h, and at the same temperature to the reaction mixture was added 8090 g of ice. The separated precipitate (12 g) was filtered off and washed with trifluoroacetic acid. The filtrate was extracted with ethyl acetate (520 ml). The extract was washed with water, dried with sodium sulfate, the solvent was distilled off, and the residue was washed with hexane. Both portions of the product were combined and recrystallized from acetic acid or acetonitrile. Yield of pure substance of mp 169 was 16 g (80%)."

Also ammonium dinitroguanidine looks unstable and will going to decomposes at room temperature

"Whereas the metal salts of 1,2-dinitroguanidine acquire impurity of dinitrourea salts only at heating, the salts of the nitrogen-containing bases are far less stable and slowly decompose in water solutions already at room temperature. The least stable is the hydrazinium salt: The rate constants of 1,2-dinitroguanidine hydrolysis in water at 25C in the presence of 1.15 mol l1 of NaOH, NH3, Me2 NH, and 0.05 mol l1 of N2H4 are respectively 0.883 104, 1.52 102, 1.25 102, and 4.48 102 1s1."

To sum up, only 3-amino-1-nitroguanidine nitrate is going to left
Lets see about that.

DubaiAmateurRocketry on the PDF you mentioned earlier, it is said:

"unlike the nitroguanidine the 1,2-dinitroguanidine is relatively strong acid." AND
"The basicity of 1,2-dinitroguanidine is considerably lower than that of nitroguanidine (pKBH+  0.93 [8] and 0.98 [9] respectively)"

So i doubt if dinitroguanidine nitrate exists, but if even it exists, it is going to be very unstable, even more ammonium dinitroguanidine

[Edited on 10-11-2013 by underground]
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[*] posted on 10-11-2013 at 03:58


I believe the trinitroguanidine can be prepared In the following method.

Nitroguanidine > acetyl bromide > N2O5 > Trinitroguanidine. I sketched the method for now, I will upload after my dinner when Im free.
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[*] posted on 10-11-2013 at 04:45


Quote: Originally posted by Dany  
Try DPX1 explosive or (E,E)-3,4-bis(oximomethyl)furoxan. all what you need is nitromethane (CH3NO2), NaOH and HCl.
This explosive has been synthesized by Davin G. Piercey and Joerg Stierstorfer in Thomas Klapotke laboratory, Germany.

Below is the copy-past of the abstract of the paper:

"Energetic furoxan (E,E)-3,4-bis(oximomethyl)furoxan (DPX1) was synthesized in 75 % yield, using a literature procedure, from a precursor readily available in one step from nitromethane. DPX1 was characterized for the first time as an energetic material in terms of calculated performance (Vdet = 8245 m s−1; Pcj = 29.0 GPa) and measured sensitivity (impact: 10 J; friction: 192 N; Tdec: 168 °C). DPX1 exhibits a sensitivity less than that of RDX, and a performance significantly higher than 2,4,6-trinitrotoluene (TNT)."

however, you must be careful with this material because it slowly decomposes at room temperature.

Dany.

[Edited on 8-11-2013 by Dany]


Dear Dany, aforementioned paper clearly said, that slowly decomposes the intermediate -nitroacetaldehyde oxime, but not the furoxan. And you forget about oleum, used for this synthesis.




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[*] posted on 10-11-2013 at 04:50


Dear Caterpillar, thanks for the correction :)

Dany.
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[*] posted on 10-11-2013 at 05:57


What about keto-RDX, it looks to be 4% more powerful than HMX

The only problem it should be the hydrolysis of hexamine (according to the pdf) as it is going to need polyphosphoric acid and phosphorus pentaoxide



Attachment: Synthesis, characterization and thermal studies of keto-RDX or k-6.pdf (113kB)
This file has been downloaded 1579 times

[Edited on 10-11-2013 by underground]
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[*] posted on 10-11-2013 at 06:21


Quote: Originally posted by underground  
What about keto-RDX, it looks to be 4% more powerful than HMX

The only problem it should be the hydrolysis of hexamine (according to the pdf) as it is going to need polyphosphoric acid and phosphorus pentaoxide

[Edited on 10-11-2013 by underground]


Thats a great find ! I wonder if you can switch all the CH2 to C=O, although less energetic, might serve an clean powerful dense oxidizer.
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[*] posted on 10-11-2013 at 12:34


there is a way to do it without phosphorus acid- only usual mixed acid 50:50% Anders Hoveland gave link to this method, and it can be found at this very forum. Small quote (sorry for unicode)
: To50mLmixtureofnitᦈ 2;icandsulfuricacid ( 98% ), asthesameofmethodA , urea ( 4.5g , 0.075mol )
wasadded.Hexaminedᦇ 3;nitrate ( HDN )( 10g , 0.038mol )
wasaddedtomilkymixᦈ 4;ureattemperature<5T 51;.Addition
ofHDNisamildreactiᦇ 9;n.AfteradditionofHA 316;N , thereac
tionmixturewasalloᦈ 7;edtowarm10℃ andwasstirredfor
1h.Thereactionwasmᦇ 9;nitoredbyTLCmethodA 294;Finally ,
thereactionmixtureᦈ 7;aspouredincrushediA 347;e ( 400g ) to
workuptheproduct.ᦅ 2;hewhiteprecipitateA 367;asfiltered ,
washedanddriedtogiᦈ 6;e8gcrudeproductthaA 364;contain
RDX ( 55% ) andKetoRDX ( 45% ) .




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[*] posted on 10-11-2013 at 21:10


Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar  
there is a way to do it without phosphorus acid- only usual mixed acid 50:50


Can you give to me more details about that please ? please ?
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[*] posted on 11-11-2013 at 01:11


Did you have problems reading the text, which I upload? I extracted it from pdf, this is why it is not very good for reading. Well, I see that I had to translate it to plain English. 50 ml of mixed acid (HNO3+H2SO4, 50:50%). 4.5 gr of urea was slowly added into this mix with stirring and cooling. After addition mix was kept at 0 Celsius for 30 minutes. Then hexamine dinitrate (10 gr) was added. Temperature was kept at 5 Celsius. Then reaction mixture was allowed to warm up to 10 C and was stirred for one hour. Finally reaction mix was poured into 400 gr of crushed ice. The white precipitate was filtered, washed and dried. That's all. I have a solid guess, that replacement of urea with nitrourea is a good idea. And most likely mixed acid could be replaced by mix of sulfur acid and some nitrate.



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[*] posted on 11-11-2013 at 03:28


Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar  
Did you have problems reading the text, which I upload? I extracted it from pdf, this is why it is not very good for reading. Well, I see that I had to translate it to plain English. 50 ml of mixed acid (HNO3+H2SO4, 50:50%). 4.5 gr of urea was slowly added into this mix with stirring and cooling. After addition mix was kept at 0 Celsius for 30 minutes. Then hexamine dinitrate (10 gr) was added. Temperature was kept at 5 Celsius. Then reaction mixture was allowed to warm up to 10 C and was stirred for one hour. Finally reaction mix was poured into 400 gr of crushed ice. The white precipitate was filtered, washed and dried. That's all. I have a solid guess, that replacement of urea with nitrourea is a good idea. And most likely mixed acid could be replaced by mix of sulfur acid and some nitrate.


What if use just hexamine in case of hexamine dinitrate, as long as hexamine dinitrate it is really really badly toxic!!
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[*] posted on 11-11-2013 at 03:50


Quote: Originally posted by underground  

What if use just hexamine in case of hexamine dinitrate, as long as hexamine dinitrate it is really really badly toxic!!


Who says that??? BS. Do not eat it and sleep well. As a matter of fact, you can use hexamine instead of its dinitrate. But in such case addition of hexamine is exothermic process and you must cool reaction vessel. This is why I think, that dinitrate is the best choice. But, if you want to use hexamine, go ahead. It is named "method A". 65 ml of mixed acid (HNO3+H2SO4, 50:50%). 10 gr of urea was slowly added into this mix with stirring and cooling. After addition mix was kept at 0 Celsius for 30 minutes. Then hexamine (10 gr) was added in small portions. Temperature was kept below zero- 0- 5 Celsius (this reaction is exothermic!). Then reaction mixture was allowed to warm up to 10 C and was stirred for 35 minutes. Finally reaction mix was poured into 400 gr of crushed ice. The white precipitate was filtered, washed and dried. I suspect, that mixed acid must be really concentrated. According to original pdf, two nitro groups must be implemented into urea. This is the problem- preparation of dinitrourea probably requires oleum. This is why I think, that nitrourea would be better choice.




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[*] posted on 11-11-2013 at 05:06


What if you are going to do 2 reaction vessels, with one with you are going to do nitrourea, and to the other one you are going to do HDN, then mix them together for keto- RDX

By the way, i also believe that adding nitrourea in case of urea surely you are going to have more possibilities to form dinitrourea
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