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Author: Subject: UK plans stricter controls on poisons and explosives
Dr.Bob
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[*] posted on 7-8-2014 at 13:04
UK plans stricter controls on poisons and explosives


Yet more new restrictions on chemicals in the UK, and maybe all of Europe soon.

UK plans stricter controls on poisons and explosives

"The UK government plans to bring in new laws that will tighten regulations around selling chemicals classed as ‘poisons’ or ‘explosives precursors’ to the general public.

Under the new changes, any individual who wants to buy any of the restricted chemicals – which include seven chemical precursors to explosives, and various poisonous substances – will need to apply for a licence first, to prevent harmful substances falling into the wrong hands...."

rest of article in link below:

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/2014/08/sale-poisons-explo...
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Artemus Gordon
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[*] posted on 7-8-2014 at 13:22


"nitric acid – for which they have recommended an overall ban"

Yet one more argument for permanently banning from public office anyone who has not passed Chemistry 101, or whatever the UK equivalent would be.
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[*] posted on 7-8-2014 at 15:37


If the (formerly) United Kingdom is willing to return to a hunter/gatherer level of existence... They could make acquiring chemicals somewhat challenging for the average sciencemadness.org member.

If they want a modern industrial society with such niceties as agriculture, soap, hot & cold running water and electric lights- Not even challenging.




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[*] posted on 7-8-2014 at 16:15


For fuck sake, I better stock Sulfuric Acid and Potassium Nitrate.

Is this going ahead or is it likely that it will?

[Edited on 8-8-2014 by Manifest]
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[*] posted on 7-8-2014 at 18:12


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[*] posted on 7-8-2014 at 18:18


1984's English Socialism in action. (Picture over this post is a reference to that book)

[Edited on 8-8-2014 by plante1999]




I never asked for this.
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[*] posted on 7-8-2014 at 21:34


before that rule comes in im buying a few hundred liters of HNO3,
the place where i went to buy my current 5l made me a bulk offer, 5l was the minimum.
then i can distribute it among other chemists (for a smal price :))

100l of 60% HNO3 would cost me 200eur




all above information is intellectual property of Pyro. :D
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[*] posted on 7-8-2014 at 21:41


I think anyone who opposes this should comment on the rsc post, particularly those of us in the UK. Its probably the most authoritative place we can express our views. Whilst the aricle mentions "hobby" chemists, it is not clear whether it is the author that aknowledges us, or (unlikely) the home office. I find it unpleasant and concerning that we'd have to apply for a license (yet the government squeezing more money out of us!) to obtain "stockroom chemicals". Moreover, whats to say they'd even grant a license for "hobby" use.
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[*] posted on 8-8-2014 at 01:28


This is very sad, Nitric Acid and Hydrogen Peroxide and many other chemicals they want to eradicate are already strictly controlled.
Where on earth can you buy Nitric Acid OTC? My source of Sulfuric is Drain Cleaner at B&Q and I buy potassium Nitrate online.

This could potentially set an end for our hobby for those of us in the UK, they are not fighting terrorism, they are fighting a non-existant boogie man.
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[*] posted on 8-8-2014 at 01:32


I can see no mention in the EU regulations of anything except nitric acid, nitromethane and hydrogen peroxide. From my reading of it, it appears that lower concentrations of all three shall be unrestricted, but those wanting higher concentrations will need a license to buy them. This applies to the whole of the EU.

I don't know where the author got the following from:
"Retailers... will have to monitor transactions of another eight explosives precursors including acetone, sulfuric acid and potassium nitrate, and continue to report suspicious activity."
There is no mention of these items in the EU regulations. I don't know what 'monitor transactions' means in this context, but it Is clearly something different to the reporting of suspicious activity.

[Edited on 8-8-2014 by forgottenpassword]
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[*] posted on 8-8-2014 at 01:43


Why are they restricting acetone? Are they still afraid idiots are making Acetone Peroxide?
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[*] posted on 8-8-2014 at 01:51


That would be the obvious assumption.
I have no idea where the author got that from. I can't imagine that a license would be required to buy acetone.

[Edited on 8-8-2014 by forgottenpassword]
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[*] posted on 8-8-2014 at 02:24


That article is misleading, I read both the EU changes in regulation and the UK Home Office consultation and it neither mentions acetone nor Sulfuric Acid.





[Edited on 8-8-2014 by Manifest]
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[*] posted on 8-8-2014 at 03:10


Yes, it seems that those are the 7 that will require a license in the UK. The first 3 from the EU regulations, and the other 4 applied by the UK government.

If I read it correctly, even with a license, no one in the EU will be able to buy:

Hydrogen peroxide above 35% w/w
Nitromethane above 40% w/w
Nitric acid above 10% w/w

(Businesses and institutions excepting).
From here on the EU regulations:

3. Notwithstanding paragraphs 1 and 2, a Member State may maintain or establish a registration regime allowing the following restricted explosives precursors to be made available to, or to be possessed or used by, members of the general public if the economic operator who makes them available registers each transaction in accordance with the detailed arrangements laid down in Article 8:
(a) hydrogen peroxide (CAS RN 7722-84-1) in concentrations higher than the limit value set out in Annex I, but no higher than 35 % w/w;
(b) nitromethane (CAS RN 75-52-5) in concentrations higher than the limit value set out in Annex I, but no higher than 40 % w/w;
(c) nitric acid (CAS RN 7697-37-2) in concentrations higher than the limit value set out in Annex I, but no higher than 10 % w/w.

[Edited on 8-8-2014 by forgottenpassword]
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[*] posted on 8-8-2014 at 03:20


I don't care about Nitromethane but as long as the Nitric Acid and Hydrogen peroxide are cheap they can be easily concentrated.
Hydrogen Peroxide - Simply evaporate off water to concentrate.
Nitric Acid - React with Potassium Carbonate to give Potassium Nitrate and from there react with Sulfuric Acid.
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[*] posted on 8-8-2014 at 07:02


Commented



Quote:
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts.

Mark Twain


Smash. All. Icons
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[*] posted on 8-8-2014 at 08:00


If nitric acid becomes regulated then build your own birkeland-eyde
reactor. Chlorates and perchlorates are relatively easy to make.
And hydrogen peroxide is likely to still be available in low concentrations.
Concentrating hydrogen peroxide is a bear however.
Sure it is more work to start from first principles but we are scientist.
Unless they outlaw copper and electricity, you can make nitric acid.
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[*] posted on 8-8-2014 at 13:14


This would be why, when my friend wanted to flee South Africa, he said 'screw it' to the commonwealth and came to America. Not that liberty is all that great there either.

[Edited on 8-8-2014 by roXefeller]
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[*] posted on 8-8-2014 at 14:42


This is just the UK coming into alignment with the new EU regulations as was discussed here.

Quote:
Where on earth can you buy Nitric Acid OTC? My source of Sulfuric is Drain Cleaner at B&Q and I buy potassium Nitrate online.

In the UK there is a relatively large eBay supplier that presently sells azeotropic HNO3 and conc. H2SO4 too. I however avoid buying nitrates and make them from the tonne of CAN I bought some years ago.

Woelen mentioned in another thread that CAN has been replaced with a AN/(NH4)2SO4 mix in recent years but I think with a bit of effort we can still get nitrates/HNO3 from it.


In my country I can't buy anything better than 30% glow fuel anyway as an OTC source of nitromethane, although I can import it from the UK, the "glow fuel" has been sufficient however.

H2SO4 and KNO3 might be under annex II, not sure about acetone. I think this just means they come under closer/greater scrutiny.

Pity about the H2O2 though but there are other home made oxidants that can cover some of it uses and if in a pinch one can concentrate the weak stuff. It's a pain in the arse of course.
---

A point of concern though is that while we may be able to circumvent these measures with some effort we may be labelled as criminals and prosecuted for simply possessing such things without a license.
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[*] posted on 11-8-2014 at 11:04


Hi Folks,

These changes have been on the table for over three years now and there was a chance to have your say during the consultation phase.

There are THREE pieces of legislation which will affect UK hobbyists:


1) The Control of Explosives Precursors Regulations 2014. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/1942/contents/made
This bill has passed and will become effective on September 2nd 2014.

The following chemicals will become restricted, you will need a licence to BUY them above the concentrations stated:

Hydrogen peroxide >12% w/w
Nitromethane >30% w/w
Nitric acid >3% w/w
Potassium chlorate >40% w/w
Potassium perchlorate >40% w/w
Sodium chlorate >40% w/w
Sodium perchlorate >40% w/w

NOTE: It will still be legal to OWN and USE these materials until March 2nd 2016. After that date you will need a licence to OWN or USE them.
Licences will cost £39.50.


The following chemicals will not require a licence, but "suspicious" transactions will be reported:

Hexamine
Sulphuric acid
Acetone
Potassium nitrate
Sodium nitrate
Calcium nitrate
Calcium ammonium nitrate
Ammonium nitrate


2) The Explosives Regulations 2014: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/1638/contents/made
This bill has passed and will become effective on 1st October 2014.

Doesn't affect me because I don't do energetics - [but read it if you do as the 100g exemption is still in place for demonstration purposes but with strict conditions!]



3) Poisons law overhaul:

As far as I can tell this has not yet been passed [UK parliament now out for summer recess]:
Consultation document: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm...

The aim was to have two groups of chemicals like with The Control of Explosives Precursors Regulations above.

Following would need a licence:

Aluminium phosphide
Arsenic; its compounds (other than those specified in List 2)
Barium, salts of, (other than compounds specified in List 2)
Bromomethane
Chloropicrin
Fluoroacetic acid; its salts;
fluoracetamideHydrogen cyanide; metal cyanides, other than ferrocyanides and ferricyanides
Lead acetates; compound of lead with acids from fixed oils
Magnesium phosphide
Mercury, compounds of, the following: - Nitrates of mercury ; mercuric cyanide oxides; mercuric thiocyanate; ammonium mercuric chlorides; potassium mercuric iodides; organic compounds of mercury which contain a methyl group directly linked to the mercury atom
Oxalic acid [Boo Hiss - I like this one!]
Phenols (phenol; phenolic isomers of the following cresols, xylenols, monoethylphenols) except in substances containing less than 60% weight in weight of phenols; compounds of phenols with metal, except in substances containing less than the equivalent of 60% weight in weight, of phenols
Phosphorus yellow
Strychnine; its salts in quaternary compounds
Thallium, salts of


The following would not need a licence but "suspicious" transactions would need to be reported:

Aldicarb
Alpha-chloralose
Ammonia
Arsenic, compounds of the following: Calcium arsenates, copper acetoarsenite, copper arsenates, lead arsenates
Barium, salts of the following: Barium carbonate, Barium silicofluoride
Carbofuran
Cycloheximide
Dinitrocresols (DNOC); their compounds with a metal or a base
Dinoseb; its compounds with a metal or a base
Dinoterb
Draxoxolon; its salts
Endosulfan
Endothal; its salts
Endrin
Fentin, compounds of
Formaldehyde
Formic acid
Hydrochloric acid
Hydrofluoric acid; alkali metal bifluorides; ammonium bifluoride; alkali metal fluorides; ammonium fluoride; sodium silicofluoride
Mercuric chloride, mercuric iodide; organic compounds of mercury except compounds which contain a methyl group directly linked to the mercury atom
Metallic oxalltates [sic]
Methomyl
Nicotine; its salts; its quarternary
Nitrobenzene
Oxamyl
Paraquat, salts of
Phenols
Phosporic acid
Phosphorous compounds, the following: Azinphos-methyl, chlorfenvinphos, demephion, demeton-S-methyl sulphone, dialfios, dichlorvos, dioxathion, disulfoton, fonofos, mecarbam, mephosfolan, methidathion, mevinphos, omethoate, oxydemeton-methyl, parathion, phenkapton, phorate, phosphamidon, prirmiphos-ethyl, quinalphos, thometon, thionazin, trizophos, vamidothion
Potassium hydroxide
Sodium hydroxide
Sodium nitrite
Thiofanox
Zinc phosphide


NB! I am not a qualified lawyer. Despite my best intentions the information provided may be incorrect. Please check for yourselves!

Best wishes,
SR
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[*] posted on 11-8-2014 at 23:14


It would be nice if they made people aware before/during the consultation phase... and if they did I must have completely missed it. The lists you provide - where did you find this information? There is nothing that I can find that says a license will be granted for hobby use, which I find concerning.
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[*] posted on 12-8-2014 at 02:56


Quote: Originally posted by DJF90  
It would be nice if they made people aware before/during the consultation phase... and if they did I must have completely missed it. The lists you provide - where did you find this information? There is nothing that I can find that says a license will be granted for hobby use, which I find concerning.


https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm...

Page 5 government response to economic/administrative issues

'The government is of the view that licensing will allow legitimate home users to purchase Part 1 poisons and to continue their activities where there are no suitable alternative chemicals'
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[*] posted on 12-8-2014 at 03:11


Quote: Originally posted by plastics  
Quote: Originally posted by DJF90  
It would be nice if they made people aware before/during the consultation phase... and if they did I must have completely missed it. The lists you provide - where did you find this information? There is nothing that I can find that says a license will be granted for hobby use, which I find concerning.


https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm...

Page 5 government response to economic/administrative issues

'The government is of the view that licensing will allow legitimate home users to purchase Part 1 poisons and to continue their activities where there are no suitable alternative chemicals'


More info here

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/precursors-and-p...
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/licensing-for-hom...

Above paragraph appears in both poisons and explosive precursors consultations

[Edited on 12-8-2014 by plastics]
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[*] posted on 26-9-2014 at 16:19


Some or all of these have gone through.

At work we are probably going to consult a lawyer, to see if we need to apply for a permit. I am the one in the office responsible for handling/ordering chemicals (chemistry work is not part of our main business, but is an important part of some of our research) as we go through a LOT of 70%+ nitric acid and other listed materials :/
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[*] posted on 28-10-2014 at 00:22


In the Netherlands we now also have an official law, which restricts the sale and use of explosives precursors. It is called "verordening 98/2013". Full text can be found here (for people who understand dutch):

http://register.consilium.europa.eu/doc/srv?l=NL&f=ST%20...

Apparently, the basis for this regulation already is laid in 2008.

The well-known precursors (nitric acid, hydrogen peroxide, nitromethane, chlorates and perchlorates) are mentioned, but some additional chemicals are added to this "verordening", being hydrochloric acid, sulphuric acid, acetone, hexamine, and a series of nitrate salts.

A permit system will be introduced in the Netherlands. Cost of the permit itself will be zero, but costs made to get the paperwork done (e.g. making photocopies, getting a declaration of good behavior, costs of sending documents by post) are to be paid by the applicant. Estimated cost is appr. EUR 30 per year. It is not really clear to me what criteria there will be for granting the permit. The document states that it is expected that 100 to 200 people will apply for a permit each year (in the Netherlands) and it is expected that nearly all of these permits will be granted. A permit will be valid for a period of two years.

If the above rules about permits are true, then the new regulations will not be an instrument for prohibiting the use of these chemicals, but for getting much more precise insight in what kind of people use these chemicals. Let's hope that indeed the permit-system allows people to use these chemicals and that indeed permits are granted. I have not yet found a place where I can apply for such a permit, but I expect such a place to become available online.




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