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Sedit
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[*] posted on 13-2-2009 at 09:37


Quote:
Originally posted by Vlad
As I learned it chemical transmutation is imposible because protons are prevented from leaving the nucleus by the orbiting electron cloud bouncing back the protons if they try to leave. So make a hole in the electron cloud and you shouldn't have that problem no? Or are there other forces preventing this to happen?


Vlad have you ever heard of Ions? They have there electrons striped away and yet they dont transmute into anything.





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[*] posted on 13-2-2009 at 09:55


Nor has he heard of the strong nuclear force, the weak nuclear force, binding energy etc.

But what can one expect from an acolyte of David Hudson?

Very little I'm afraid.

Transmutation of a sort goes on all the time in nuclear reactors. The exact processes and products depend on what the fuel is, and other details. Thatn is nuclear criticality. Gold is not a product that I recall, but if it were it would be radioactive gold.

The fission of a single nucleus of a fissile isotope such as U-235 "transmutes" that atom into two lighter atoms, releasing an enormous amount of energy (the famous Einsteinian equation) which is the released nuclear binding forces. The theory is all there for you to look at. The theory is not secret, and at this point not very much of the practical aspects remain so either.

Lawrence and Seaborg and colleagues did lots of transmutations with huge cyclotrons and lineacs and so on. Bombarding elements with atomic particles at very high (relativistic) velocities so that the nuclei would sometimes make room for another proton. That is not a chemical process. That is the province of high energy physics.

[Edited on 14-2-2009 by Sauron]




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[*] posted on 13-2-2009 at 18:42


Quote:
Originally posted by Sedit

Vlad have you ever heard of Ions? They have there electrons striped away and yet they dont transmute into anything.


Ions and then what? The ions just lost the outermost electrons in the shell (or accept some more electrons). How can that interfere with inner orbitals?

Plus even without any electrons, the two nuclei have a strong repulsion force not to get fused together so easy!




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[*] posted on 13-2-2009 at 19:07


Ok you have me compleatly lost? Lets talk about the first eight on the periodic table where the inner shell is all they have. Or better yet lets talk of helium. If you strip away its outter shell are you trying to suggest to me that it will make it possible for the repulsive forces to split helium into hydrogen?

Sorry if I misunderstand you, it just seems that you are suggesting that transmution is a possibility. My example was just a thought experiment to make Vlad picture an atom without electrons.... and nothing more.





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[*] posted on 13-2-2009 at 19:20


Oh sorry Sedit I misunderstood what you mean.
Basically you and me are saying the same thing, that even without electron shells the transmutation isn't easy with just mix and shake! Nuclear reaction please.


[Edited on 14-2-2009 by Pomzazed]




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[*] posted on 13-2-2009 at 19:23


An atom stripped of it's electron is still the same atom, no matter what, what keep proton and neutron together are far from being electron, it's the strong nuclear force. This is more in the physic real than the chemistry real.

On another note, I've been following this thread for some time now, and to be honest it is full of very useful information on basic chemistry. If you cut out all the crap in it you end up with something that could actually be the basic of good Q&A.




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Sedit
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[*] posted on 13-2-2009 at 19:28


"transmutation isn't easy with just mix and shake! Nuclear reaction please."

;)Im going to start selling the EZ bake oven for terrorist. Just shake , bake strip of electrons and youll have a nuke it 30 mins or less... so easy even a kid could do it :D

Your right BA aside from the pie fights here and there it does contain some basic QA that people may find useful down the line. Quite possibly the reason this threed has survived this long





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[*] posted on 14-2-2009 at 01:24


Quote:
On another note, I've been following this thread for some time now, and to be honest it is full of very useful information on basic chemistry. If you cut out all the crap in it you end up with something that could actually be the basic of good Q&A.


I still think it's bad logic to assume things like the green goldchloride solution are fraud/fake/something else just because I don't offer peer reviewed publications.

Now I can understand their point of view, after all they are chemists and I didn't study chemistry at all but computer science. Though I learned some practical chemistry I found out there are things that chemists have no answer for and they quickly wipe it under the mat so to say.

For example, the gold in a testtube pictures. I still think it's gold, but let's assume it's not gold but another metal or amalgam. How can it end up in the testtube sticking to the glass without the glass having been melted by the heat of the reaction of the molten metal or amalgam being poured into the test tube? That's certainly interesting. I don't see how it could have been done but if someone knows it'd be interesting to hear.

[Edited on 14-2-2009 by Vlad]
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[*] posted on 14-2-2009 at 01:41


Now, for over 200 years, millions of very educated scientists have been seriously experimenting and trying on all kind of chemistry and physics subjects. The have tried so many times, if can change an element. AND IT DID NOT WORK BY SIMPLY HEATING!
So please, you are a computer scientists, and therefore you have no clue what you're talking about. It is bullshit. That would mean that everyone who has melted Cu and Pb alloys would have gold! And a LOT of people have!
You can't just warp out a proton by a little heating... Please. You are all insulting chemists don't see things, and they rather turn their back from it, but at least these people use common sense and give arguments why you can't get out a proton of the nucleus, wich is verified by millions of chemists/physics. But mr. computer science thinks he knows best and his resources are:
-a bunsen burner
-a test tube.

:P

And goldchloride is NOT green, but yellow. Copper(II)chloride is green!
You mentioned 2 pages before your gold did not dissolve in cold aqua regia but it did in hot! Yes, that is because it was a Pb/Cu alloy, and Pb does NOT dissolve in aqua regia, only very slowly!
Gold start dissolving as you throw it in aqua regia.

Get real!

[Edited on 14-2-2009 by Jor]

[Edited on 14-2-2009 by Jor]
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[*] posted on 14-2-2009 at 02:49


Quote:
And goldchloride is NOT green, but yellow. Copper(II)chloride is green!
You mentioned 2 pages before your gold did not dissolve in cold aqua regia but it did in hot! Yes, that is because it was a Pb/Cu alloy, and Pb does NOT dissolve in aqua regia, only very slowly!
Gold start dissolving as you throw it in aqua regia.


It was gold. It was tested on all tests for 24 carat gold including the stannous chloride test.
Copper chloride is another kind of green.
Goldchloride is yellow yes, but that's the point, there appears to be a way to make a green gold chloride and it seems implicated in transmutations.
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[*] posted on 14-2-2009 at 02:51


Vlad, your "reports" are not merely unreviewed, you have made not the slightest effort to engage in any sort of scientific reportage.

You refuse to details your materials and methods.

You offer not the slightest verifiable proof.

You make wild and farcical claims.

You exhibit no understanding of fundamental principles of chemistry and physics, in fact you flout them.

What you claim is not only implausible but impossible. Logic dictates that the impossible be rejected.

Science is based on experiment with disclosure and reproducibility of results.

You reject all that. You make no disclosure so no attempt at reproduction of your results is possible.

So why should anyone pay the slightest attention to you as anything but a joke?

You reject the scientific method.

So scientists reject you.




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[*] posted on 14-2-2009 at 03:05


Again, Vlad, let me repeat the advice I gave you: if you wish to be treated on par (even with your "different" background), you will have to show the exact procedure you followed publicly (and not via U2U like your previous communique).

You say you are a computer scientist... one can get away with showing an executable as a "black box" and never revealing the source code, but that is not contributory to progress as a whole. Better to post the executable and the source code.

In the same way, photos and even a video is insufficient; for all we know you may be pulling behind-the-scenes machinations on us. On the other hand, most of us here are disinterested parties who (I hope) will credit the original discoverer if a procedure is found to be on the straight and narrow.

Finally, to condense what has been told to you across multiple posts in a short sentence: the strong nuclear force cannot be overcome by purely chemical means. Utmost you are merely moving electrons around. But no protons are moved, and therefore no element transmutation occurs. A cursory view of what you have shown me in your U2U tells me no protons are displaced, even with the "extreme" conditions you propose.

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[*] posted on 14-2-2009 at 03:19


I get it but I still 'believe' something is at work that is not understood yet because I have come across a lot of reports and 'proof' of transmutations.

However like I said in the previous posts, how come the glass didn't show melt signs with the metal in it? Nobody has been able to explain that yet.

I have the process of how the person got the solution to go back to metal. It was by boiling down at at least 96°C with sulfuric acid. He said the metal dropped all at once out of solution with a loud POP sound.
Obviously if you do this you usually get an ordinary sulfate normally so either he was lying or some other mechanism is at work.
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[*] posted on 14-2-2009 at 04:36


Then you can bank on the fact that he was lying,

Check out the price of gold.

If it could be made from Cu and Pb do you reckon

a) the price of gold would plummet

or

b) the prices of Pb and Cu would skyrocket?

??

This is the original free lunch that, as the saying goes, there is no such thing as.

TANSTAAFL.

[Edited on 14-2-2009 by Sauron]




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[*] posted on 14-2-2009 at 06:58


Quote:
Originally posted by Vlad
I get it but I still 'believe' something is at work that is not understood yet because I have come across a lot of reports and 'proof' of transmutations. [...] However like I said in the previous posts, how come the glass didn't show melt signs with the metal in it? Nobody has been able to explain that yet.
Nobody can explain it because nobody can reproduce it because nobody has published the procedure. And yes, I'm talking to you, Vlad. Publish what you know so that other people can explain it. If you think there's a transmutation going on, I'm sure the people here will be able to determine whether it be or so.
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[*] posted on 14-2-2009 at 07:32


The photos come from an alchemist on an alchemy forum. The procedure is probably incomplete, and at first glance seems not to produce anything special. However it is my belief the alchemist left his secret 'solvent' out that reduces (according to the philosophy) metals to their prime matter/state. As I see it chemically, without the solvent, you don't get to the state where the transmutation happens.
But for the curious the recipe is below.

---
Greetings
I would like somebody to try a experiment to confirm some results I got.
Take Nitric acid commercial is ok, add salt peter, Ammonia chloride, heat . The color should change from clear to yellow . Should be a form of aqua regia which dissolves gold . Now put in copper and gold digest completely solution should be lime green. Boil down to thick syrup not dry. -Add sulfuric acid . Boil down again to syrup add sulfuric acid again. At this stage there was a small pop and the copper changed to gold and the gold dropped as a metallic. Wash with distilled water add salt peter and melt in crucible. To confirm copper changed to gold place the cooled gold nugget in Nitric. If it turns Blue your copper is still copper if clear and your gold is at the bottom you had a transmutation my end result was about 100 times greater gold quantity than I started with. End of that experiment I did this in a open test tube so some of the copper could have gone up in smoke. Ill use a distilling device and exact measurements next
I noticed something else . Several months ago I explained a process of separating a black salt from copper resulting in a small quantity of gold. Today I got the reverse . I put gold into solution then dropped it into stannous chloride. ( Tin in Hcl ) . The solution turned to a black oil after heating my pure gold turned into copper and gold. The gold was in the form of a black to dark brown precipitated salt combined with some of the tin. the copper was metallic. This was also done in a open test tube. I had no copper in this solution at all in the begging . I was using CP grade tin and pure gold.

---

The clue is where he said "digest completely solution should be lime green". This normally doesn't happen.

[Edited on 14-2-2009 by Vlad]
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[*] posted on 14-2-2009 at 08:11


Ah. So you never saw the "gold" and never tested it yourself and only have the word of some sois-dissant alchemist on an alchemist forum (God what a mismatch!) and you reckon he his holding back secrets (as alchemists always were wont to do, after all.)

You have not performed this yourself. Correct?

I hope so for your sake. Because clearly the fellow is a liar, and you have been duped.

If you say that you have done this and the product is verifiably gold then we have to draw different and harsher conclusions about either your veracity or your reason (by which I mean rationality, grip on reality, sanity.)

There really isn't any middle ground.




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[*] posted on 14-2-2009 at 08:41


Vald in your last post you say that you dissolve gold and copper. So you dissolve gold, then drop it out of solution...
Where is the Pb?

I can also dissolve gold and drop it out of solution again.....

EDIT:
So this is the forum of the alchemists?
http://forum.alchemyforums.com/
http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=512

I see your name there as well.

It's a little bit like that site where everybody still thinks the world is flat.

And there is only one possible stone that can 'convert' Pb in Au, albeit very slowly, and that is some large crystal of a gold-salt. The gold would plate out , and Pb would form the chloride for example. And I doubt even if this will work. And this is a chemical process.


[Edited on 14-2-2009 by Jor]
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[*] posted on 14-2-2009 at 09:08


Quote:
Originally posted by Jor

It's a little bit like that site where everybody still thinks the world is flat.


Jor, I beg to disagree---it's a little bit more than a little bit like the flat-earthers site. . .
Red Bull Lion, anyone. . .

[Edited on 14-2-2009 by hissingnoise]
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[*] posted on 14-2-2009 at 09:30


Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron
Ah. So you never saw the "gold" and never tested it yourself and only have the word of some sois-dissant alchemist on an alchemist forum (God what a mismatch!) and you reckon he his holding back secrets (as alchemists always were wont to do, after all.)

You have not performed this yourself. Correct?

I hope so for your sake. Because clearly the fellow is a liar, and you have been duped.

If you say that you have done this and the product is verifiably gold then we have to draw different and harsher conclusions about either your veracity or your reason (by which I mean rationality, grip on reality, sanity.)

There really isn't any middle ground.

No I haven't done it but I don't consider it necessarily a fraud just because classical chemistry says it's not possible. The photos are still there and again no point about the metal adhering to the glass, unmelted.
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[*] posted on 14-2-2009 at 09:36


Quote:
Vald in your last post you say that you dissolve gold and copper. So you dissolve gold, then drop it out of solution...
Where is the Pb?

You add it and dissolve it too. The above process is only about Cu and some Au. And when it said the quantity of gold was about 100 times greater than what was started with, that is probably to be ignored as a lie, no?

Quote:
EDIT:
So this is the forum of the alchemists?
http://forum.alchemyforums.com/
http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=512


That's another forum yes.

Quote:
It's a little bit like that site where everybody still thinks the world is flat.


Actually, and laugh, several people including me know of a process that starts with urine and makes a powder out of it (no, not the salts present in urine, we're not that stupid), and one alchemist recently performed this and took photos of it, and had his stone transmute lead into platina and gold and it was tested by a jeweler. Not much, about 5.6 grams only, but it's still a transmutation. Now believe what you want, but I'm saying this is not difficult to understand when you realize monoatomic elements are present in urine too, which most if not all of you consider impossible because it goes against classical chemical thinking.
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[*] posted on 14-2-2009 at 09:50


You have a deficit of energy in there.
Let say that you agree with the law of energy conservation, and let's do some basic math.

So Copper has 29 Proton of mass 1.67×10^−27 kg and an average of 34.62 Neutron (considering isotopic percentage) of mass 1.67×10^−27 kg (the difference of mass between the two is minimal, but know that there is one due to the difference of mass between Up and Down Quarks)

That's mean that for one atom of copper we have an average energy of:
29*1.67×10^-27 + 34.62*1.67×10^-27 = 1.06×10^-25 kg

If we do the same calculation with Gold using 79 Protons and 118 Neutron (note that gold has only one natural stable isotope):
79*1.67×10^-27 + 118*1.67×10^-27 = 3.29×10^-25 kg

So we have a difference of 2.23×10^-25 kg which would translate in energy (according to the well know formula of E=mc²) as:
2.23×10^25kg * 3×10^8m/s = 2.01×10^-8 J/atom
this seem very small and it is, but this is for 1 atom of copper, now for 1 gram we would need:
2.01×10^-8 J/atom * 1g * 63.55g/mol * 6.022×10^23atom/mol = 7.692×10^17 Joule

Now how could I put that in perspective.
By comparison the three gorge dam which is the biggest power plan in the world actually have a maximum output of:
22.5 × 10^9 Joules/second (22500 MW).
So considering that you are trying to create matter here, you'd need to plug yourself directly on that dam for about 34186666 second which is 1 year 30 days 16 hours 17 minutes and 46 second (give or take a second). That is considering pure transmutation of Copper into Gold.

Now ask yourself, did my Bunsen burner (Meker, torch well anything you might too to melt that) is able to give enough power in 10 minutes than the Three Gorges Dam is able in a year and a month?

Now you might say, yes but i may have fused together two nuclei. Copper is a Z=29 and gold is a Z=79, the 50 Protons in that might come from something in my solution, well you do have Nitrogen (Z=7), Oxygen (Z=8), Hydrogen (Z=1), Chloride (Z=17) and Sodium (Z=11) and, let's push it farther, Silicium (Z=14) and Boron (Z=5) from the borosilicate glass of the test tube. The is not a single one with a Z=50m so it'd require multiple fusion, which is very unlikely. I don't know though how to calculate the energy needed for a fusion, I know that you need to take in account the repulsive force of the electromagnetic force, and the strong force dissociation and re association. It's over my capacity, but I'm guessing that if even stars have a hard time doing this, it'd be very improbable to do in a test tube using standard household equipment.

While I do not fully dismiss you're theory, I do think that using the method fore mentioned, you have a deficit in energy.

And if you don't really believe in the conservation of energy law, well it's about saying you don't believe in modern science.

Also, remember that the internet is anonymous, everybody can say anything they want to get attention. If I want to say that I'm a billionaire who work for NASA, I can say it. I can also prove it to you by saying that one of my good friend can vouch for me. I can also say that I'm a kid genius of 5 years old. In any case the only thing you have as a proof is my word. Now if a guy say that he did it, and that a jeweler attested the purity. What proof do you have, can you contact the jeweler to be sure, can you ask him to attest it on a second jeweler of your choice which you know is trustworthy. Remember that the more important the claim is the bigger the proof need to be, especially when there is the possibility of power and money linked to it.

[Edited on 14-2-2009 by Blind Angel]




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[*] posted on 14-2-2009 at 09:58


Nice tries, gentlemen, but vlad does not care for rational argument. He is after all a True Believer.

"Afainst stupidity the gods themselves struggle in vain."

"There's one born every minute."

[Edited on 15-2-2009 by Sauron]




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[*] posted on 14-2-2009 at 14:47


I dont know what Im more pissed about.. someone being able to transmute gold and not telling me how... or the fact that I tryed to start a serious threed on nano particals and every one pays more attention to this one:D




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[*] posted on 14-2-2009 at 17:23


Jor wonders upthread if lead can precipitate out gold. I ask if anyone has a table of standard reduction potentials, or better yet, a Latimer diagram for lead and gold.

sparky (~_~)




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