Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Paint creation thread

CyrusGrey - 14-3-2008 at 19:52

While lurking around on the fourms here I have seen many threads about isolating chemicals from paints, but never any about making them. Since my art skills only extends to drawing diagrams of apperatus and chemical structures, my painting skills are abysmal, but thats OK. I have made four simple linseed oil based paints here:

Some powdered sulfur was ball milled for about a day. After mixing this with linseed oil I got a pale yellow goop. This was probably never used as a paint as the color is really not that strong.

I took four graphite welding rods, stripped the copper, broke them up and ball milled them (This was very annoying to ball mill. It would grind up the small pieces into a very fine powder and not break up anything larger than 2mm in diameter. It took me two weeks to mill.) This made a nice very black paint.

The third one is ferric oxide. I belive this was called Venetian Red.

For the last I took copper carbonate and dissolved it into acetic acid. You might be able to tell from the picture that it is a bit gritty, since I didn't make enough to mill.

I made some zinc oxide also, but when I tried to mill this it turned grey (Didn't clean my mill out well enough after the graphite).

I plan to try Prussian Blue soon, also I will try Han Purple and Egyptian Blue (BaCuSi2O6 and CaCuSi4O10) if I can find a kiln or something I can use. Does anyone know of other interesting pigments that can be added to linseed oil? I would rather not make fine powders of heavy metal salts though.

Paint.JPG - 43kB

12AX7 - 14-3-2008 at 20:04

I'm going to make copper phthalocyanine for my organic chemistry "project" this semester. Awfully simple, but damned if it isn't BLUE.

On heating or aging, that sulfur mixture ought to do some really, really ugly things, chemically. It might even turn rubbery or crusty, due to sulfur crosslinking the linseed oil. Remember linseed oil is a drying oil because of its high degree of unsaturation which makes it prone to forming solid polymeric resins.

Tim

CyrusGrey - 14-3-2008 at 20:14

By really ugly do you mean release big clouds of hydrogen sulfide? I thought that would only happen when it was heated.

Think I should wash the oil out of it with acetone and dispose of it? It has been sitting in my garage for a couple weeks with no smell of H2S. Well, its not a very good paint anyway.

Post back and tell us how your copper phthalocyanine turns out. I don't know much about organic synthesis though, just inorganic. Hopefully I can take some organic chem classes in fall or spring 2009.

[Edited on 15-3-2008 by CyrusGrey]

microcosmicus - 14-3-2008 at 20:50

Also maybe try copper acetylsalicylate. It is used as a colorant for PVC among
other things and there is a thread here by bfesser on how to prepare it:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=9920&a...

Quite simple to do even if you have litle or no familiarity in the ways
of organic chemistry.

12AX7 - 14-3-2008 at 21:44

Quote:
Originally posted by CyrusGrey
By really ugly do you mean release big clouds of hydrogen sulfide? I thought that would only happen when it was heated.


Well, I shouldn't say REALLY ugly, but it should at least end up a sticky or brittle mess. By ugly I should've said something along the lines of "complex reaction products".
Quote:
Post back and tell us how your copper phthalocyanine turns out. I don't know much about organic synthesis though, just inorganic.


Honestly it's not a very organic-ey chemical, it's extraordinarily stable: it can be sublimed at up to 350C without decomposition. If you have a phthalate, a nitrogen source (everyone has urea :P ) and some copper and maybe an additional catalyst (boric acid and ammonium molybdate are mentioned), you can make it.

Tim

[Edited on 3-14-2008 by 12AX7]

not_important - 14-3-2008 at 22:32

The iron oxides are interesting pigments, reds, yellows, browns, and blacks, depending on the process used to make them. A trace of manganese will darken and brown the colour. Most of the natural 'ochers' are mixtures of iron oxide/hydroxide with clays and so on, which lightens them.

Some years ago I bought a batch of surplused chemicals which happened to contain 100 g of arsenic oxide. This got me into making the equivalents of old natural and synthetic pigments. I made orpiment (As2S3), realgar (AsS), Scheele's green (copper arsenate), Schweinfurt green (copper aceto-arsenite), Prussian blue, Vivianite (Blue Ochre - hydrated , ferrous phosphate and a bugger to make well), smalt (a potassium based glass containing cobalt), Egyptian blue (calcium-sodium glass containing cobalt), vermilion/cinnabar (HgS), azurite and malachite (basic copper carbonates), and messed with the various ochers.

I only made a few grams of each, never made paints from them but seeing how toxic many of them are just sealed them away in glass as samples. Gave them to a friend a friend, who was doing research on old pigments, a few years back.

There are a few 19th century books that give some detail on pigment manufacturing. They're old enough that there were only a few organic pigments, and much of those were natural.

here are a few Web sites you might find interesting:

http://www.goldenpaints.com/products/color/heavybody/histpig...

http://jcsparks.com/painted/pigment-chem.html

http://lilinks.com/mara/history.html

http://www.sanders-studios.com/instruction/tutorials/history...

http://www.naturalpigments.com/

http://www.wellesley.edu/Chemistry/Chem&Art/Topics/Pigme...

http://www.winsornewton.com/main.aspx?PageID=307

YT2095 - 15-3-2008 at 02:51

you should try some Lead/Chrome and Silver/chrome complexes, they make great Yellow and Red pigments respectively.

CyrusGrey - 15-3-2008 at 20:09

Thanks for all the info.

My sulfur paint does seem much thicker than the other paints I made. I thought I just mixed too much sulfur in but now I'm not so sure.

Interestingly, the copper acetate pigment has turned green as it is drying. I have read that this happens, but I'm not sure why. One of not_importants texts suggests that its formation of 'copper resinates' though I'm not sure what they mean by resinate. The copper salt of the fatty acids in the oil perhaps?

I'll add copper acetylsalicylate, malachite, ultramarine, and manganese violet to my queue of pigments to try. I might try copper phthalocyanine and perylene if I can figgure out how to synthesize them from napthalene. The other ones mentioned either require reagents I don't have or are very toxic, which wouldn't be a good idea since a quality paint would require very fine powders of those chemicals.

I'll post back with pictures as soon as I can synthesize another pigment.

metal phosphates

chloric1 - 8-11-2015 at 17:56

copper phosphate will be a sky blue and cobalt phosphate is violet. These are easily precipitated from their chlorides or sulfates.

Amos - 9-11-2015 at 04:21

Just thought I'd upload a picture of my paint pigments so far. At the moment they're only suspended in water without any surfactant, so naturally they'll look a lot more uniform once I've got some linseed oil.

IMG_2005.JPG - 4.4MB

zed - 9-11-2015 at 14:52

There are books on this topic. I have an interest myself, because oil based house paints are no longer available, in most of The States, adjoining me. State and Federal, regulations.

Olympic Solid Oil Stain, used to be the best, of the best. Slow drying, long lasting, never blisters or peels......And, it can be refreshed (after 20years or so) by simply painting a fresh coat of boiled linseed oil over it. Just pigment and Linseed oil; the best!

Oh, about Linseed Oil. It doesn't usually come up, but you must use Boiled Linseed Oil, to bind your paints. Raw Linseed Oil, never dries.

gatosgr - 18-11-2015 at 05:02

If you boil it you prepolymerize it so it will take less time to cure, you can use Co,Mg or Zn salts to speed up the drying time.
You can buy a similar paint as alkyd resin from a paint store.

[Edited on 18-11-2015 by gatosgr]

Bert - 18-11-2015 at 05:13

Titanium and/or Aluminum oxides as white pigments, and try just a TINY BIT of lamp black with these for a brilliant, long lasting white paint-

Lamp black is easier than milling graphite, smoke the inside of a porcelain crucible with a low O2 acetylene flame, or flame from burning vegetable oil. Cover crcible well to exclude air and heat red hot to remove any excess oils, then use.

gatosgr - 19-11-2015 at 03:18

Do you know of any other oils that polymerizes in the presence of air like linseed oil? It's hard to get linseed oil where I'm at right now.

I've found out that sunflower oil is unsaturated and depending on the iodine value it can work like linseed oil.

[Edited on 19-11-2015 by gatosgr]

ave369 - 19-11-2015 at 05:42

There is something interesting resulting from a reaction between tannic acid and divalent iron. This results in a black, brown or dark purple pigment that was used to make ink. Perhaps it can be used for paint as well.

[Edited on 19-11-2015 by ave369]

BromicAcid - 19-11-2015 at 06:14

Quote: Originally posted by gatosgr  
Do you know of any other oils that polymerizes in the presence of air like linseed oil? It's hard to get linseed oil where I'm at right now.

I've found out that sunflower oil is unsaturated and depending on the iodine value it can work like linseed oil.

[Edited on 19-11-2015 by gatosgr]


Personally I have only really used linseed and walnut oils but there are quite a few that I have seen mentioned in passing. The website below lists several oils and their properties, more oils can be found by searching 'drying oils' in your favorite search engine.

http://www.cad-red.com/mt2/oil.html


Raw Drying Oils
Linseed Oil
Poppy seed Oil
Walnuts Oil
Safflawer Oil

Processed Oils
Sun Thickend Oil
Stand Oil

Remember that how good your oil works depends to some extent on the pigment. Some retard and some accelerate 'drying' times.

[Edited on 11/19/2015 by BromicAcid]

Texium - 19-11-2015 at 07:33

Quote: Originally posted by ave369  
There is something interesting resulting from a reaction between tannic acid and divalent iron. This results in a black, brown or dark purple pigment that was used to make ink. Perhaps it can be used for paint as well.

[Edited on 19-11-2015 by ave369]
There's a thread about that somewhere, but I don't know where it went. I've made it before, and have tried using it as ink and also as paint. If you dry it and allow it to be oxidized to the insoluble ferric version, it makes a decent paint pigment.

Hawkguy - 19-11-2015 at 07:44

What about reacting Phenol with Iron salt, that usually produces a nice purple. I can do this later and let you guys know if noone has already done it. If I recall though, it'd smell pretty awful. Also be worth doing some Picric related yellow and oranges, as well as Picramic red and Diazo green. You can probably see a theme developing.

Hawkguy - 19-11-2015 at 07:48

Also, a Barium Sulfate would make nice white, as well as a red from Cobalt Nitrate.

Actually that would be a terrible idea because of toxicity.

[Edited on 19-11-2015 by Hawkguy]

zed - 19-11-2015 at 15:52


"Do you know of any other oils that polymerizes in the presence of air like linseed oil? It's hard to get linseed oil where I'm at right now.

I've found out that sunflower oil is unsaturated and depending on the iodine value it can work like linseed oil."

Linseed (akaFlaxseed) oil, is the oil of choice around here. Available and not expensive. We buy it by the gallon, at the local hardware stores.

Failing that, for fine painting, Walnut oil is a winner. Not cheap! But, if you have your own tree, you are good to go. Dries fast.

Poppy Seed OIl, has a decent rep, but it is not very available in the US. The Government doesn't want Opium Poppys, to become widely established here. No Poppies....No Oil.

cyanureeves - 19-11-2015 at 16:01

lead acetate was used as white paint and it is very white and i believe sweet tasting too.one summer i dropped a pc. of lead in vinegar and it did turn very white but it took forever to make.

BromicAcid - 19-11-2015 at 17:58

Quote: Originally posted by zed  

Poppy Seed OIl, has a decent rep, but it is not very available in the US. The Government doesn't want Opium Poppys, to become widely established here. No Poppies....No Oil.


No problem buying poppy seeds for use in cooking, the art supply store in town sells refined poppy seed oil without any issues for painting. I have never noticed an issue getting either of these things in the US.

MeshPL - 20-11-2015 at 10:38

Aureolin (potassium hexacobaltinitrite) is quite nice yellow. It can be made without strong heat source.

I think, that what you can make depends mostly on heat sources you have. With good enough, you should be able to make synthetic ultramarine.

I remamber when I attempted to make pigments. ZnO is nice white, prussian blue makes nice, yet dark blue, copper phosphate is sky blue in colour, iron (III) phosphate is sand coloured, mixed with copper phosphate and prussian blue it produced surprisingly nice grassy, dirty green. Do not try nickel oxide/phosphate they are weak colorants, go for chromium (III) instead. Copper (II) oxide is black-ish, in smaller amounts it makes brown, not gray. I tried to make malachite, but failed. Simply percipitating copper in 1 mole Na2CO3 per 2 moles NaOH didn't work for me, it produced blue percipitate, at least I could turn it into CuO.

[Edited on 20-11-2015 by MeshPL]

Hawkguy - 20-11-2015 at 17:18

There should be a prize for the first person to make Barium Copper Silicate. Pretty cool stuff, one of few only ancient purple pigments, and apparently interesting to make.

gatosgr - 21-11-2015 at 01:00

For light blue you should try Cu(OH)2.

[Edited on 21-11-2015 by gatosgr]

zed - 23-11-2015 at 16:39

"No problem buying poppy seeds for use in cooking, the art supply store in town sells refined poppy seed oil without any issues for painting. I have never noticed an issue getting either of these things in the US"

Indeed, it can be obtained. My concern was price.

Last time I bought a gallon of Linseed Oil, it was 16.00 dollars US.

Current Home Depot price, $24.00 one gallon.

[Edited on 24-11-2015 by zed]

AJKOER - 26-11-2015 at 14:07

Quote: Originally posted by YT2095  
you should try some Lead/Chrome and Silver/chrome complexes, they make great Yellow and Red pigments respectively.


Here is a path to Turner's yellow by boiling aqueous NaCl with PbO, followed by heating the formed basic lead chloride. This was a commercial patent (so called Scheele's process), which also makes NaOH. Here is an extract from Atomistry (link: http://lead.atomistry.com/basic_lead_chlorides.html ), to quote:

"PbCl2.3PbO is also supposed to be produced in Scheele's process for manufacturing caustic soda by the action of litharge on sodium chloride solution, thus:

2NaCl + 4PbO + H2O ⇔ 2NaOH + PbCl2.3PbO,

but according to Berl and Austerweil the compound PbCl2.4PbO.2H2O is produced when a normal solution of sodium chloride is employed, thus:

2NaCl + 5PbO + H2O ⇔ 2NaOH + PbCl2.4PbO.

The hydroxychloride formed in Scheele's process turns yellow when heated till it is anhydrous. In 1787 Turner took out a patent for preparing caustic soda by Scheele's reaction, and the ignited basic chloride was employed as a pigment under the name of Turner's yellow, or patent yellow. "

Read also Atomistry comments on Lead monoxide at http://lead.atomistry.com/lead_monoxide.html .

[Edit] An interesting variation would be to substitute KCl for NaCl for the possible creation of KOH.

[Edited on 26-11-2015 by AJKOER]

Amos - 27-11-2015 at 05:53

In addition, Chrome Orange can easily be prepared by making a suspension of lead(II) chromate (Chrome Yellow) in boiling water, and with strong stirring, adding small amounts of sodium hydroxide until a rich orange is produced. To prevent the color changing any further, you can quickly pour the contents of the beaker into ice cold water to dilute the reaction mix, and then filter. The pigment is lightfast and very stable unless exposed to strongly acidic or strongly alkaline solutions.

gatosgr - 27-11-2015 at 11:14

I found that you can use CaO as a drying agent for linseed oil what do you guys use except for boiling it? Have you thought about reacting the linseed oil with something else to make the chain bigger and maybe stronger? I've found some use maleic acid fumaric acid or glucosides to extend the chain.

I bought some linseed oil for 7$/lt which is a rip off btw it used to cost 3$ or less per liter.

zed - 27-11-2015 at 17:43

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt_phosphate

Cobalt Violet, interesting color.

The eye may be confused by such colors. We might sometimes think of Violet as being a mix of Red and Blue. But a true Violet is damned hard to come by.

In fact, it appears to me, that the above Wiki page, is showing an allegedly Violet swatch, that isn't.

Accept no substitute.

[Edited on 28-11-2015 by zed]

morsagh - 28-11-2015 at 04:24

Very interesting is antimony pentasulfide from reaction of acid and schlippe's salt. It is really nice gold colour.

IMG_8654.JPG - 3.5MB

Argentum - 29-11-2015 at 18:00

Quote: Originally posted by zed  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt_phosphate

Cobalt Violet, interesting color.

The eye may be confused by such colors. We might sometimes think of Violet as being a mix of Red and Blue. But a true Violet is damned hard to come by.

In fact, it appears to me, that the above Wiki page, is showing an allegedly Violet swatch, that isn't.

Accept no substitute.

[Edited on 28-11-2015 by zed]


Actually that lavender-like color of cobalt phosphate is produced by mixing pink and light blue, or you could say red, blue and white. In fact, as far as I know to make that color you have to use more white than blue and red together.