Sciencemadness Discussion Board

reductive amination with triacetoxyborohydride

azo - 25-3-2008 at 14:17

Has anyone used triacetoxyborohydride for the reductive amination of aromatic ketones with primary amines i understand that it is selective towards imine formation without forming the imine first with very little reduction of the ketone to the alcohol but i have also read that it is sluggish with aromatic ketones and has limitations with aromatic ketones. Is nacnbh3 a better choice or does it give poor yields on non substituted ketones

does this pass your stringent rules nicodem

Magpie - 25-3-2008 at 14:41

Standard English is the official language of this forum. You know, capitalize the first letter of a sentence, use a period at the end of a sentence, capitalize the pronoun I, etc. This should all be familiar from grade school. We have many contributors whose first language is not English who do a fine job with grammar and punctuation. Why is it so difficult for you? You basically just show laziness and disrespect when you don't follow standard forms. Also remember that the first letter of the symbols for chemical elements is also capitalized. Using standard punctuation makes it so much easier on the reader. After all, why are you posting if not to successfully communicate with your readers?

vulture - 25-3-2008 at 14:42

Given the fact that NaCNBH3 (how hard is it to use capitals appropriately?) is less nucleophilic, it should work better with unsubstituted ketones (which is an incorrect term anyway), as they are more electrophilic.

BTW, if you want help and expect your stay to be extended on this forum ,stop being an ass and learn how to capatalize properly, ie NOT ALL THE TIME, but also not never! And how about some punctuation? You really think people are going to help you if they get a headache from reading your posts?

Did you always shout at your teachers when you wanted an answer?

Quote:

We have many contributors whose first language is not English


And I happen to be one of them, FYI.

[Edited on 25-3-2008 by vulture]

[Edited on 25-3-2008 by vulture]

azo - 25-3-2008 at 15:23

If i have made it hard to read i am sorry. I didnt think it was so important !.

MagicJigPipe - 25-3-2008 at 16:16

Right, communicating so others can understand you and respect what you say has never been important *sarcasm*. How well one can write is indicative of ones motivation, responsibility and general intelligence. For example, if you can't apply things you learned in 3rd grade to your everyday life then what the hell else can you be expected to do properly? Work in a respectable manner at a decent job? Be trusted with simple tasks (as simple as capitalizing the pronound "I")? Of course not. It may be wrong but people get the impression that you are lazy, ignorant, apathetic, lazy and (around this forum) a typical meth cook (I mean, your question is about aromatic ketones. I could have guessed) when you can't take the time or muster up the wherewithal to type correctly. Also, do you know part of the reason bad grammar and ingorance is associated with meth cooks? Because over at WetDreams that's how most of the people type. I mean, that forum probably wouldn't have such a bad rap if the people there communicated themselves properly. To put it bluntly, it makes you look like an idiot when most people who speak English as their second language can write it better than you.

What's funny is even after we told you about it you still didn't capitalize your "Is"! Not to mention "didn't" is a contraction and needs an apostrophe. And I'm sure, at this point, commas would be way too much to ask for. Even if you don't have PERFECT grammar that requires high school education you should at least know punctuation, capitalization and basic sentence structure. That's literally elementary shit.

If you really are still in the 3rd grade let us know so we can understand. Otherwise, stop being so lazy! And if you don't know this basic shit go LEARN it and then come back and worry about how to manufacture methamphetamine from phenylacetone. The former is obviously more important.

As you can see guys, this kind of thing really pushes my buttons and I'm sorry for the rant.

[Edited on 25-3-2008 by MagicJigPipe]

azo - 25-3-2008 at 16:53

You no what makes me sick as soon as you ask a simple question? you get accused of being some meth cook where I live you wouldn't be able to get the chemicals needed anyway.
Is there some law against research into this field?
Since being on this site I have had nothing but abuse
And accused of doing things I have not done and will not do
One day someone will need my help and I will not reply.

grind - 25-3-2008 at 16:55

As far as I can remember there is an article in which is made a comparison between NaCNBH3 and NaBH(AcO)3 in reductive amination. And if I remember rightly, they say NaBH(AcO)3 is of great advantage and gives much higher yields in virtually all cases.

MagicJigPipe - 25-3-2008 at 19:56

If it looks like a duck and smells like a duck...

Really, I don't care whether you're a "meth cook" or not. You should be able to do what you want in your home. It's just that you are acting like a stereotypical methcook by typing like a monkey and asking questions about chemical processes that could be used in the manufacture of amphetamines.

WHAT THE HELL ELSE are you going to get from reductive alkylation of "aromatic ketones with primary amines"? You might as well just come out and say it "for the reductive animation of [methylenedioxy]phenyl-2-propanone with methylamine". Anyway, I apologize for contributing to the clogging of this thread but I think we have enough P2Pish threads already.

Shall we continue?

pantone159 - 25-3-2008 at 20:28

I'm actually interested in STAB, it seems like an actual chemistry question, I really don't care much (as far as reading and understanding) what the legality of the substrates are.

That doesn't excuse silly capitalization games however.

Klute - 25-3-2008 at 22:38

Isn't an aromatic ketone by definition a ketone of the type: Ar-CO-R? In that case phenypropanones are not aromatic ketones, even though they contain aromatic ring.
Thus, the limitations in that JACS 1996 article on STAB your are surely talking about don't apply to phenypropanones.
An aromatic ketone is going to form a stable imine, even if it can take a while. Depending on the bp of the amine you plan on using, refluxing toluene in a dean stark trap is going to get you your imine. Remove most of the toluene under vacuum, add methanol or another alcohol, and use NaBH4 to reduce your imine. STAB only has 1 hydride to react, so you will need 4x the amount of NaBH4, which is a waste if you make it from NaBH4 in GAA. STAB is really only needed when good yield are crucial, wxith expensive products, the more delicate substrates or for the N-alkylations mentionned.

Again, CTH or catalytic hydrogenations could get you were you want. You good give dissolving metals a look too: Al, Mg, Na...


Don't get pissed so quickly. This forum is the way it is, but can bring much is you make the effort to have a correct attitude. I will stop here for the political/social aspect.

Nicodem - 25-3-2008 at 23:49

Azo, thank's for improving your grammar, though you still have much space for improvement (at the moment that "nacnbh3" was indeed the most annoying mistype while the rest was almost readable).

MagicJigPipe, phenylacetone is not an aromatic ketone so don't jump to conclusion and divert every thread that you can into some meth-discussion.

Now, please let us continue with the topic of using STAB in reductive aminations. There is almost an entire page of posts added an nothing scientifically useful yet. I'm too tired at the moment to do a literature search, so someone else please post some reviews on this reagent so to give this thread some meaning.

stoichiometric_steve - 26-3-2008 at 00:20

i'd say, experiment is king.

the up-side of STAB is its easy preparation from cheap NaBH4 with 3.05eq glacial acetic acid in toluene.

its down-side is that you only have one hydride equivalent per mol.

it is indeed the case that aromatic ketones react sluggishly, whereas it would be preferred to use a preformed imine (which can be accomplished by drying the reaction mix with molecular sieves or silica gel) and subsequently adding NaBH4.

NaBH3CN is so exceedingly expensive that you dont really want to mess with it unless you have no, really NO other choice.

[Edited on 26-3-2008 by stoichiometric_steve]

MagicJigPipe - 26-3-2008 at 00:29

I apologize, I read it too quickly and didn't realize he was speaking of "aromatic ketones" as opposed to an aromatic with a ketone functional group. Regardless, that was not the point of my post.

I have found 2 posts of mine that could be considered "diverting into a meth discussion". Please, do not generalize my posting habits as such.

jizmaster - 26-3-2008 at 02:52

Here's a nice article on some of the stuff that can be done with borohydrides. Had no idea about half of that stuff, reductions of amides, nitriles, benzylic ketones and alcohols, deoxygenation of enones! Using 3 eq N-CO2iBu proline instead of acetic acid allows enantioselective imine reduction!

And lots of examples of plain reductive aminations here, some take a long time!:

http://taz4.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/pdf/sodium.triacetoxy...

I think the easiest way usually is to just make the imine and then reduce with NaBH4. Doesn't get much simpler, just stir in alcohol to form the imine, add borohydride, wait 10 min, quench.

Attachment: Acyloxyborohydride review.pdf (434kB)
This file has been downloaded 857 times


azo - 26-3-2008 at 15:41

I supose one could do the reduction in acetic acid with NaBH4 using 1 mole NaBH4 and 1 mole acetic acid which would produce the more reactive acyloxyborohydride. The acyloxyborohydride would have three hydride ions and would not reduce the ketone to the alcohol at all.

NaBH4 + 3RCO2H > NaBH(OCOR)3 + 3H2

NaBH4 + RCO2H > NaBH3OCOR + H2

By the way magic jig the reduction of a ketone with a amine is called a reductive amination the reduction of a amine with a alkyl group is reductive alkylation

jizmaster - 26-3-2008 at 18:53

No, like you said the monoacetoxyborohydride is more reactive. Probably not as reactive as plain borohydride but it will still reduce ketones.

What i don't understand is how the borohydride/TFA combination appears even more reactive than plain borohydride. Electron withdrawing acyl groups should increase the B-H bond strength, making it a weaker source of hydride. Is the hydride not able to full compensate for the electron withdrawal of the acyl groups, maybe, resulting in a more acidic boron and less polarised B-H bond? This does seem to explain the increase in 'borane like' behaviour with increasing substitution with EWG's.

Paper on hydroboration with 'sodium malonyl borohydride':
http://www.rsc.org/ej/NJ/2001/b100228g.pdf

Azo, maybe you could use this or another diacyl borohydride for intermediate reactivity? Though i'm still not sure if that's what you want, by aromatic ketone do you mean the ketone is on the carbon atom connected to the aromatic ring? (the benzylic carbon) Or is it just an aliphatic ketone with an aromatic system elsewhere in the molecule? Only if it's attached right next to the ring is it sometimes less reactive than an aliphatic ketone.

[Edited on 27-3-2008 by jizmaster]

Nicodem - 27-3-2008 at 01:03

I don't think the trifluoroacetoxy anion is enough powerful ligand to form a stable NaBH3(CF3COO) type of borohydride. Instead this should further decompose to diborane and CF3COONa. Hence the borane-type of reductions can be done with this combination. It is similar like the oxidation of NaBH4 with I2 which also results in the formation of diborane.

[Edited on 27/3/2008 by Nicodem]

Phosphor-ing - 27-3-2008 at 12:14

http://www.organic-chemistry.org/abstracts/literature/717.sh...

Is this what your talking about?

Klute - 27-3-2008 at 13:05

Quote:
I supose one could do the reduction in acetic acid with NaBH4 using 1 mole NaBH4 and 1 mole acetic acid which would produce the more reactive acyloxyborohydride. The acyloxyborohydride would have three hydride ions and would not reduce the ketone to the alcohol at all.

NaBH4 + 3RCO2H > NaBH(OCOR)3 + 3H2

NaBH4 + RCO2H > NaBH3OCOR + H2


I'm not sure you can obtain monoacetoxyborohydride simply by adding 1 eq of AcOH, IIRC you will surely obtain a mixture of triacetoxy, a little diacetoxy or less monoacetoxy, unless you use low temperatures. But i haven't checked the lit for this, i just remembered that monoacetoxyborohydride isn't something you succesfully use as such, and obviously not isolate (although i guess you planned on making it insitu).

grind - 27-3-2008 at 13:38

You can add 4 or more moles of AcOH to 1 mol of NaBH4, in the cold only triacetoxyborohydride is formed. The last H is replaced at elevated temperatures with an excess of acid.
You need very finely powdered NaBH4 and the complete conversion to triacetoxyborohydride takes a lot of time (min. 12 h) in the cold, even with an excess of AcOH. The suspension becomes gel-like during the process.

[Edited on 27-3-2008 by grind]

Klute - 27-3-2008 at 13:42

So i could be wrong thinking mono- and di-acetoxyborohydride don't exist for long... My bad.

azo - 28-3-2008 at 02:36

hi klute
In relation to the formation of the imine in toluene i take it you ment a toluene and a aquous phase,. And if so do you need to use an acid catylist to protonate the oxygen which would leave the carbon atom even more electron deficient and open for attack from the nucleophile. I am not so sure about the removal of the water during the imine formation by forming an aziotrope with toluene is this good enough to drive the reaction in the direction of imine formation.

regards azo

Nicodem - 28-3-2008 at 03:04

The most general method for the synthesis of imines is just that, an azeotropic removal of water with the Dean-Stark trap from the refluxing mixture of the amine and ketone/aldehyde in the presence of catalytic amounts of TsOH. However, in most cases two or more days of reflux are used for complete conversion.

Of course, by diluting such imine containing solution with MeOH and reducing with NaBH4 gives you the corresponding amine without the need to actually isolate the imine intermediate. If this is the goal, the complete conversion to the imine (requiring days of azeotropic drying) in several cases is not even necessary since protonated imines reduce at a much greater speed than ketones. This actually shifts the imine formation equilibrium and can results in the amine being the main product. There are even rare cases where it is possible to do reductive aminations with NaBH4 directly on methanolic solutions of an amine and ketone/aldehyde, though only in cases where the imine formation step is rapid enough.

The problem with any such approach is that its not predictable enough and only an experiment can tell you if it works at all and if it works what are the yields. On the other hand using general STAB mediated aminations you can expect good results and less frustrations.

azo - 28-3-2008 at 03:37

Thank's nicodem that explains it well.

Klute - 28-3-2008 at 03:46

I haven't got much to add! :)
The problem with toluene is that low boiling amines (NH3, MeNH2, etc) tend to evaporate off during the long reflux, or at least concentrate in the trapped water ( no aq layer btw, the water is eliminated as it forms so you have a sometimes milky homogeneous phase). Besides using a very arge excess of the amine, i haven't worked a way out of this... Maybe using the amine salt and slowly dripping trietylamine at RT, then refluxing would be ok. For low boiling reflux, you can use pet ether as a solvant, i forms a ~5% azeotrope with water, i've used it for condensations and the pot temp never went over 60°C. If I distilled the pentane fraction, or used pur pentane, the temp would be even less. I could take a few hours more though.

Have you considered the Ti isoproxide route? The "regular" grade isn't that expensive, and the reaction is said to work well with delicate substrates...

stoichiometric_steve - 29-3-2008 at 00:32

Quote:
Originally posted by KluteHave you considered the Ti isoproxide route? The "regular" grade isn't that expensive, and the reaction is said to work well with delicate substrates...


if that route is attractive as the papers state it, throw away the STAB, mol sieves and so on.

i've even seen the use of regular TiO2 in pressurized catalytic hydrogenation of amines with carbonyl compounds (some german patent). i think that the Ti(IV) has a mediating effect on the imine formation.

check this btw.: Reductive Amination with Ti(OIPr4) and Pd/C without solvent

[Edited on 29-3-2008 by stoichiometric_steve]

Klute - 29-3-2008 at 06:29

Nice paper! I had only stumbled on the ones where NaBH4 is used as reducer. Obviously, once the titanium-imine complex is formed, it could be reduced in several ways. This leads me to ask myself if CTH couldn't be used here? This would greatly simplify the procedure, and diminish the cost (recycleable catalyst).
The way i see it, the titanium complexes the imine, so it isn't an equilibrium anymore and there's noketone to be reduced.. Even less than equimolar are said to be usefull when the reducing agent is gradually added, as the Ti complex get's reduced very quickly, and the liberated Ti IV reforms a complex with the remaining ketone and amine, etc etc.
If you can't get the Ti(OiPr)4 for a reasonable price, go for it. When ever I'll think of doing a reductive amination, i'll use it for sure! I can have it for 17.43E 100mL, which is much cheaper than pur STAB or 4x NaBH4 and certainly less that NaBH3CN!

solo - 29-3-2008 at 07:55

Very nice paper indeed......I wonder then if the amine can be the salt hence solving a headache in the reductive amination of L-PAC.......solo

stoichiometric_steve - 29-3-2008 at 13:58

Quote:
Originally posted by solo
Very nice paper indeed......I wonder then if the amine can be the salt hence solving a headache in the reductive amination of L-PAC.......solo


solo, as stated in the other papers (i mean this one), the authors use Ammonium Chloride and Methylammonium Chloride along with Triethylamine (ratios: Substrate:Amine Salt:Triethylamine:Ti(OIPr)4:NaBH4 1:2:2:2:1.5) stirred for ~10hrs, then adding NaBH4 and stirring for 8hrs.

so, here's the solution to your problems ;)

Klute, where did you read about the subequimolar amounts of Ti(OIPr)4 being used? i'd love to see that, since the Ti(OIPr)4 isnt really that cheap (2kg=7.5mol=150EUR)

[Edited on 29-3-2008 by stoichiometric_steve]

Klute - 29-3-2008 at 15:06

In the paper you provided, table 1 last entry, and i could have sweared i saw it in one of pdf already mentionned, but it doesn't seem to be the case.. I have a look elsewhere.

Methyl.Magic - 30-3-2008 at 04:19

Quote:
Message original : grind
You can add 4 or more moles of AcOH to 1 mol of NaBH4, in the cold only triacetoxyborohydride is formed. The last H is replaced at elevated temperatures with an excess of acid.
You need very finely powdered NaBH4 and the complete conversion to triacetoxyborohydride takes a lot of time (min. 12 h) in the cold, even with an excess of AcOH. The suspension becomes gel-like during the process.

[Edited on 27-3-2008 by grind]


Thank you !

This is important to know ! I was wondering if it was like the preparation of LiAlH(tBuO3) (dropping LiAlH4 in t-butanol).

grind - 30-3-2008 at 21:04

4,29 g of finely powdered NaBH4 (assay 96%, 0,11 moles) is dried at 140°C in vacuum for 1 hour. It is then suspended in 68 g of dry toluene and the lumps are broken again if necessary. The suspension is cooled with an ice/NaCl bath and a mixture of 27,55 g glacial AcOH (dried with Ac2O, 0,46 moles) and 70 g of dry toluene is added within 70 minutes (exclusion of moisture and stirring with a very large magnetic stirring bar at approx. 400 rpm during the whole process). The cooling bath is removed 1 hour after the addition of the AcOH/toluene mixture was finished. Now the suspension is stirred for approx. 12 hours at room temperature or until the evolution of H2 virtually ceased. The thick, gel-like white suspension (which is now more difficult to stir) is now ready for use. You can add a ketone/amine mixture or whatever you want. The progress of the reaction seems to help to destroy the gel-like state of the mixture, and stirring becomes easy again.

This is my personal method and experience to make STAB. The amounts of toluene can be varied widely.
Sorry for my bad english.....

Klute - 2-7-2008 at 16:59

In addition to Grind's excellent preparation, I would like to add this preparation of STAB I found randomly. The procedure is pretty similar, except that they isolate the STAB as a powder to be stored before use, and use benzene instead of toluene...

Quote:

Sodium Triacetoxyborohydride. A 100” Schlenk flask equipped
with a Schlenk filter was charged with 186 mg (4.93 mmol) of sodium
borohydride and 50 mL of anhydrous benzene. The slurry was cooled
to 10 OC and 860 pL (15.0 mmol, 3.04 equiv) of anhydrous acetic acid
was added dropwise so as to maintain an internal temperature no higher
than 20 OC. Hydrogen evolution was measured with a gas buret. After
addition of acetic acid was complete the mixture was allowed to warm
to ambient temperature and stirred at that temperature for 8 h. Hydrogen
evolution had ceased at 330 mL (theoretical for 3.00 equiv is 331
mL) after 5 h. The colorless slurry was filtered and the resultant white
powder washed with three 20-mL portions of freshly distilled, anhydrous
ether. The combined ether filtrates did not liberate hydrogen when
treated with 1 N aqueous hydrochloric acid. The powder was held under
vacuum over night to afford 961 mg (92%) of analytically pure sodium
triacetoxyborohydride as a white, hygroscopic solid:


Article

stoichiometric_steve - 3-7-2008 at 13:26

Quote:
Originally posted by stoichiometric_steve
if that route (Ti(OiPr)4) is attractive as the papers state it


gotta correct myself here. i tried the method, and it is awful. lots of salts at the end of the workup, product sticking to the salt, unfilterable, messy. unfeasible unless steam distillation is suitable for product separation.

Klute - 21-8-2008 at 14:55

Here is a pretty inspiring procedure for the reduction of an enamine with preformed acetoxyborohydride species in excess GAA (required to form the iminium salt that can then be reduced).

In this example, they use an amine-borane complex, but borohydrides (NaBH4, NaBH3CN, etc) are equally used (results in the tables) with often excellent yields.

This in-situ preparation of STAB in excess GAA simplifies the procedure, and apparently avoids the thick gel-like suspension. They used GAA straight from the bottle.

Quote:

Reduction of 4-tert -Butyl-1-( 1-pyrro1idinyl)cyclohexene with (CH3)3CNH2BH3 (Reverse).

The amine-borane (0.87 g, 10 mmol) was stirred with 30 mL of glacial acetic acid under Ar for 12 h, the enamine (1.04 g, 5 mmol) was then added, and the solution was stirred at room temperature for 16 h. Concentrated HCl (4 mL,) was added, and the solution was stirred for 1 h, poured onto ice, and made basic with 50% aqueous NaOH. The mixture was thoroughly extracted with ether, and the organic phase was dried (K2CO3), concentrated after GC analysis (Table VII), and flash distilled on a Kugelrohr apparatus to afford 0.93g (89%) of the cis- and trans-N-(4-tert-butylcyclohexyl)-pyrrolidines.
GC analysis indicated an 87/13 cis/trans ratio (Table
11). For examples not conducted under reverse conditions (Tables I and III), the above procedure was modified only in that the enamine was dissolved in acetic acid followed by the amine-borane.


From: Stereoselective reductions of substituted cyclohexyl and cyclopentyl carbon-nitrogen .pi. systems with hydride reagents
J. Org. Chem.; 48(20); 3412-3422 (1983)

(availble in the ref's forum thanks to Vovan78)

In the reversed conditions, acetoxyborohydrides are not the actual reducting agents, the borane complex is (or resp. the borohydrides). This kind of addition is used in:

Reduction of Steroidal Enamines
James A. Marshall and William S. Johnson
J. Org. Chem.; 28(2); 421-423 (1963)
(avaible in the ref forum too)

Quote:

3p-N-Pyrrolidylcholestene-5 (IIb). (a) Sodium Borohydride
and Acetic Acid Reduction.-A mixture of 50 mg. of 3-
N-pyrrolidylcholestadiene-3,5,m~ .p. 136-141", and 25 mg. of
sodium borohydride in 1 .5 ml. of anhydrous tetrahydrofuran
was stirred under nitrogen, and 0.5 ml. of glacial acetic acid was added dropwise. A 0.5-ml. aliquot was removed, made basic with 10% sodium hydroxide, and extracted with ether-ethyl acetate.
The extracts were washed with water, saturated brine,
and dried over anhydrous granular sodium sulfate. Removal
of solvent left 14 mg. of colorless [amine-borane complex]

The remainder of the reaction mixture was refluxed for 1 hr.,
and the product was isolated as above to give 36 mg. of crude solid.
Recrystallization from ethanol afforded 16 nig. (44% yield allowing for removal of the aliquot) of lustrous white plates, m.p.165-175O.
The infrared spectrum of this material was identical
with that of material prepared as described below (part b).
Admixture of the two substances gave no depression in melting
point.


The utilization of diglyme as the solvent led to a substantial
improvement in yield. Thus, a solution of 50 mg. of 3-Npyrrolidyl~holestadiene-3,5,m~ .p. 136-141 ", and 20 mg. of
sodium borohydride in 2.0 ml. of anhydrous diglyme was stirred
under nitrogen during the dropwise addition of 2.0 ml. of glacial
acetic acid. The mixture was allowed to stand for 10 min. and
heated on a steam bath for 1 hr. The crude product was isolated as described above and crystallized from ethanol to give 30 mg. (60% yield) of 3@-N-pyrrolidylcholestene-5, m.p, 160-172'. The mother liquors afforded 17 mg. (34% yield) of an
oil, the infrared spectrum of which was nearly identical with
that of crystalline amine IIb.




Hope it can be usefull to some (Chemrox?).

I plan on trying a few similar reductions, and will report my results when done.


EDIT: I have one question for anyone with experience with formation of STAB, does the sue of THF as cosolvent in the preparation (Grind's procedure) give a gel-like sludge too? Or is it possible that a solution is formed?
there is a mention of the preparation of the STAB by addition of GAA to a susepsnion of NaBH4 and subsequent transfert of the "solution" to the imine/enamine, but it's on a pretty large scale and laking of details, so it could just aswell be a suspension or a slurry.....

[Edited on 22-8-2008 by Klute]

stoichiometric_steve - 21-8-2008 at 23:36

Quote:
Originally posted by stoichiometric_steve
gotta correct myself here. i tried the method, and it is awful.


gotta correct myself once more! the method is beautiful! sticking to the instructions is the way. the workup needs HUGE amounts of water/dilute acid or dilute base to generate a filterable solid. approximately 1 - 1.5L final volume for a 300mmol run.

akdovnoff - 23-8-2008 at 12:50

Quote:
Originally posted by Klute

EDIT: I have one question for anyone with experience with formation of STAB, does the sue of THF as cosolvent in the preparation (Grind's procedure) give a gel-like sludge too? Or is it possible that a solution is formed?


Although I don't have experience with the actual preparation of STAB, I've used it quite a lot and it's pretty much insoluble in THF. Infact, it's solubility in pretty much anything is distinctly limited from what I've seem.

Klute - 23-8-2008 at 13:22

Thank you very much for that information. I guess i will go with in-situ preparation in GAA... Could you comment on the stability of this reagent towards atmiospheric humidity? Is it as sensitive as NaBH4, or does it really require handling in dry box?

I'm considering preparing 100-200mmol and isolate it as a solid, and was wondering if regular glass frit would be ok for filtration, or if schlenk filtration was required....

Klute - 3-9-2008 at 06:28

I have run a STAB reduction, preforming it in situ by adding NaBH4 to 10x molar GAA, follwing a procedure for enamine reduction (J. Org. Chem., 48, 3412-3422 (1983)). I was hoping to obtain a fluid solution of STAB in GAA.

So 3eq of NaBH4 were added to 10x molar amount of GAA over 30min, at ice bath temperature (5% anhydrous toluene was added to avoid cristn of GAA at those temps), in small portions, keeping the temp at 0-5°C.
The reaction is pretty exothermic, so small portions must be added, when the vigorous H2 evolution calms down. Near the end of the addition, the bubbling mixture suddenly turned to a thick, white paste, nearly impossible to stir. Anhydrous toluene was added to thin it up, obtaining a fluid, gel like suspension, as per Grind's description. The suspension was left to stir for another 30min, at which point the H2 evolution had virtually stopped. The enamine was added, followed by some toluene to thin up the slurry formed, and the mixture stirred for 24H.

After hydrolysis of the boron complex by stirring with HCl for 30min, which formed a thick emulsion of fine white solids, basic workup worked like a charm, dissolving the fine emulsion-creating white boron solids. After a complete A/B, the amine was obtained in ~70% yield.

So, basicly, there is no point in pre-forming STAB this way: addition of NaBH4 portion-wise causes unneccesary exposition to atmospheric moisture, and is much less practical than adding GAA dropwise to NaBH4 suspended in toluene, or other solvent. A co-solvent being needed during the formation of the hydride and the reduction to obtain a stirreable mixture, it is much more practical to add the substrate dissolved in an anhydrous co-solvent.

The yield was pretty satisfying, but having discovered that the use of Zn dust in GAA is as effective with aromatic enamines, there isn't much point is "wasting" NaBH4 (3 hydrides eq. going off as H2).

I have a few pictures if people are interested. If I try Grind's procedure I will report back.

solo - 3-9-2008 at 15:31

I found the reading of this to be most interesting and rewarding.......solo

One-pot reductive amination of aldehydes and ketones with α-picoline-borane in methanol, in water, and in neat conditions
Shinya Sato, Takeshi Sakamoto, Etsuko Miyazawa, Yasuo Kikugawa
TetrahedronVolume 60, Issue 36, 30 August 2004, Pages 7899-7906


Abstract
A one-pot reductive amination of aldehydes and ketones with amines using a-picoline-borane as a reducing agent is described.
The reaction has been carried out in MeOH, in H2O, and in neat conditions in the presence of small amounts of AcOH. This is a highly
efficient and mild procedure that is applicable for a wide variety of substrates. In particular, this is the first successful demonstration that this
type of reaction can be carried out in water and in neat conditions.

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Klute - 3-9-2008 at 15:48

That's a pretty impressive and promising paper!

Considering the aq. solution, it would seem that amine-borane complexes are selective enough to reduce even traces of imines/enamines without touching carbonyls... Also, the su eof only 1eq of amine si pretty interesting.

I suppose pic-BH3 might not be too difficult to produce from NaBH4 and a lewis acid BF3.Et2O for example, generating dibornae and complexing it with the amine.
On the other ahnd, picolines aren't such common reagents, so maybe BH3.trimethylamine or BH3-pyridine can substitute well enough with simialr results. The drawbacks from using pyr-BH3 mainly concern industrial scale...

The procedure I used from the above enamine reduction actually uses t-BuNH2-BH3 in the experimental, so it seems pretty much similar. The authors claim that the borane forms an acetoxyborane species in-situ before adding the substrate, when adding the hydride before the substrate in GAA.

solo - 4-9-2008 at 05:19

I think that if the catalyst is made easily this will replace the very toxic HgCl and aluminum type reductions and also the sodium borohydride and catalytic hydrogenations in the near future.....will run a reaction to see how it works and it's yield and will report........solo

Here is some other stuff on boranes,


http://www.organic-chemistry.org/chemicals/reductions/borane...

Klute - 4-9-2008 at 08:42

On a side note, production of borane from various Lewis acids, for amide reductions (Kindly found by Nicodem):

Enhancing Borohydride's Reductive Selectivity


Apparently, borane-amine complex are generally prepared by passing a stream of anhydrous CO2 in a mixture of NaBH4, amine, and solvent, in dry conditions (US 5,144,032).

But there is also a very promising method: reacting the amine hydrochloride with NaBH4 in ethers: (Coll. Czech. Chem. Commun. 34, 3009 (1969) )! The inorganic salts are filtered off, and the solvent evaporated to yield the amine-borane complex!


US H000919 present the preparation of tertiary diamines-borane complexes with CO2 or GAA, and reviews several other patents. Several methods really seem interesting. The triethylamine-borane complex seems like a good candidiate too.

I think we have something here! very nice find Solo!


edit: This article seems pretty interesting, it suggests that the formation of ammonium borohydrides by adding amine salts to NaBH4 maybe a first step in reductive aminations...


This kind of gives me a idea for really easy redutive amination: to use the hydrochloride of the primary amine, add a more basic tertiary amine (Et3N), forming the hydrochloride of the tertiary and the freebase of the priamry, adding 1eq of NaBH4, forming the triethylamine-borane complex in presence of the primary freebase, and adding the ketone/aldehdye, forming the imine with the primary, which is reduced by the amine-borane complex.... I don't think this can work with pyridine, might no be basic enough to liberate the primary amine.

I suppose the NaBH4 will react with the acidic ammonium salt, forming ammonium borohydride, which decomposes to the amine-borane complex. But we need to be sure the tertitary amine complex is more stable than the primary-amine one, to avoid some kind of borane transfert, consuming the primary amine.

But I suppose the possible aq. conditions could allwo us to simply avoid triehtylamine, use commercial aq. solutions of the primary amines, or in-situ from the ammonium salts and hydroxides: generated water doesn't seem to be a problem.

The questions would then be how availble the picolines are...

[Edited on 4-9-2008 by Klute]

grind - 4-9-2008 at 10:08

Quote:
Originally posted by KluteI have a few pictures if people are interested.

I´m interested in your pictures ;) .

If you try "my" procedure, you can use much more toluene of course to make the mixture easier to stir.
Also you can use THF or 1,2-dichloroethane as solvent.
There is an article where they use propionic acid and THF and when I remember correctly, they get a solution.
Acids with higher molecular weight than acetic acid give a higher stereoselectivity in the reductions.

Klute - 4-9-2008 at 17:25

Here goes:


- The setup (oven dried, cooled under Ar)



-The enamine (aniline and N,N-diethylbenzoylacetamide in toluene, cat. TsOH and Dean Stark, removal of most of the toluene):



-NaBH4 (dried over KOH overnight):



-GAA+ anhydrous toluene (3A MS), added via syringe:



-Paste obtained near the end of the addition:



-After adding anhydrous toluene:



-Addition of the enamine:







-After 24H stirring at RT (notice fine cristalline solid):



-After addition of conc HCl dropwise (quench of the exces hydride, and decomposiiton of the amine-borane complex):



Didn't take any more pictures after.... After stirring at RT for 30min, adding conc. NaOH until most of the solids/emulsion had dissolved gave a clear aq. and dark orange/brown organic layer, which was washed with water and extracted with dilute HCl, aq. washed with toluene, basified and amine extracted, washed, dried, and cristillized from HCl/IPA in ~70% yield.

grind - 5-9-2008 at 03:14

Thanks for the pics, Klute. Good work and very interesting!

Did you make an enamine from an amide (N,N-diethylbenzoylacetamide) and aniline? What´s the structure of your carbonyl compound?

Was the suspension easier to stir after the addition of the enamine solution?

Quenching directly with conc. HCl is dangerous. Borane can be formed and cause fire/explosions. A safe way is quenching with water or NaOH-solution.

I read in an article about NaBH4 that it loses its water above 35°C. So I guess drying with KOH is not as efficient as drying at elevated temperatures. I dried it at 150°C in vacuum for 1 h and there was a little loss in weight (12,04 g ---> 11,91 g).

stoichiometric_steve - 5-9-2008 at 05:07

Quote:
Originally posted by grind
Quenching directly with conc. HCl is dangerous. Borane can be formed and cause fire/explosions.


Where did you read/hear about that? i usually use 20% aq. H2SO4 or straight 99% GAA to quench even NaBH4 powder, i never ever had a fire. In aqueous solution, Borane is never going to be around in gaseous form to cause trouble.

grind - 5-9-2008 at 06:24

Quote:
Originally posted by stoichiometric_steve
Quote:
Originally posted by grind
Quenching directly with conc. HCl is dangerous. Borane can be formed and cause fire/explosions.


Where did you read/hear about that? i usually use 20% aq. H2SO4 or straight 99% GAA to quench even NaBH4 powder, i never ever had a fire. In aqueous solution, Borane is never going to be around in gaseous form to cause trouble.

Yes, in aqueous solution it´s no problem. So it´s better to first add water and then acid, even when you work with diluted acid. I´ve often read this in the literature and there were such accidents reported.

Klute - 5-9-2008 at 07:54

Here is the original procedure, where they use a borane -t-BuNH2 complex as hydride:

Quote:

Reduction of 4-tert -Butyl-1-( 1-pyrro1idinyl)cyclohexene

The amine-borane (0.87 g,
10 mmol) was stirred with 30 mL of glacial acetic acid under Ar
for 12 h, the enamine (1.04 g, 5 mmol) was then added, and the
solution was stirred at room temperature for 16 h. Concentrated
HCl (4 "1,) was added, and the solution was stirred for 1 h,
poured onto ice, and made basic with 50% aqueous NaOH. The
mixture was thoroughly extracted with ether, and the organic
phase was dried (KzCO3), concentrated after GC analysis (Table
VIT), and flash distilled on a Kugelrohr apparatus to afford 0.93
g (89%) of the cis- and trans-N-(4-tert-butylcyclohexyl)-
pyrrolidines. GC analysis indicated an 87/13 cis/trans ratio (Table
11)


Indeed, I think adding a little water first can't do any harm. The reaction with STAB will be a little less vigorous I suppose.


The carbonyl compound I used is the N,Ndiethylamide of benzoylacetic acid, made by reacting excess ethyl benzoylacetate and diethylamine in presence of cat. NaH at high temps and subsequent removal of ethanol formed.

One could think that with a primary amine and a ketone an imine would form, but b-ketoester and b-ketoamides always form stable enamines, the double bond formed being conjugated with the carboxyl. Apparently, it isn't just a mixture of enamine and imine tautomer, but only the enamine at all times. Hence, the reduction must be run with 1 eq. of GAA or simialr to form the iminium salt...

Yes, the slurry was definitively easier to stir after adding the enamine, but I did add at least an equal volume of toluene (the imine took a few seconds to correctly dilute itself in the mixture, while in solution it was instantaneous). There was a little H2 evolution at first, but it quickly came to a stop.

I only hav acces to a kitchen oven at home, and am very reluctant at putting chemicals in it :) The KOH seems good for my purposes, I was thinking of using P2O5, but I prefer keeping non-acidic conditions to avoid any H2 evolution if a grain of NabH4 falls on the P2O5 for some reason...

grind - 5-9-2008 at 08:19

Quote:
Originally posted by Klute
I only hav acces to a kitchen oven at home, and am very reluctant at putting chemicals in it :) The KOH seems good for my purposes, I was thinking of using P2O5, but I prefer keeping non-acidic conditions to avoid any H2 evolution if a grain of NabH4 falls on the P2O5 for some reason...

You don´t need an oven, drying directly in the reaction flask not only removes water traces in the NaBH4, but also makes your glassware perfectly dry for the reaction. Especially if you powder the NaBH4 in the air, it becomes wet due to its hygroscopic nature. Heating it after the powdering procedure removes water traces reliably.
The use of argon is not necessary in the most cases, except your imine/enamine is very air sensitive. The exclusion of moisture is much more important, otherwise, even reductions with aqueous formaldehyde solution were performed with a large excess of STAB.

Klute - 5-9-2008 at 08:41

Good idea. My NaBH4 is already pretty finely divided, although it does cake up a little in the original bottle.. So I could just transfert it to my flask, apply vacuum, and heat in an oil bath with stirring to break down the lumps.. at which temp do you heat?

grind - 5-9-2008 at 09:01

You can heat it to 150°C. The decomposition temperature is about 400°C, so 150°C are no problem. At first you should heat it cautiously, then with full power.
But I think it´s better to break down the lumps before heating it, because simple magnetic stirring doesn´t break down the lumps (my personal experience). Or you powder it when it´s covered with toluene, that´s another possibility.

Klute - 5-9-2008 at 09:09

This looks like a much better approach than adding the hydride to solvents: you hydride it entirely dry, aswell as your steup, and introducing dry solvents via syringe minimizes any contact with atmospheric moisture.. You really are the STAB Guru :)

I'm also considering trying to reduce the enamine with NaBH4 in AcOH, but adding the hydride to the enamine with 1 eq of GAA: of course, the reductant is NaBH4 here, not STAB, but at least all 4 hydrides can be used. Now that I knwo that STAB works for this particuliar substarte, i will try the NaBH4 (which is used in an enamine reduction procedure).

Apparently, with a similar substrate, using NaBH3CN with the carbonyl and the amine in MeOH gives only the alcohol, even though the enamine is readily formed, but preforming the enamine and reducing it it with NaBH3CN gives the expected product.

The Zn/GAA procedure has been pretty dirty and low yielding, but it could be du to the crude amide (I'm going to try it out with a cleaner amide).