Sciencemadness Discussion Board

"The Chemistry Store"

DDTea - 24-10-2003 at 19:09

I stumbled across this website while looking up Sodium Hexametaphosphate: www.chemistrystore.com . They say they are geared towards Hobbyists, Teachers, and Students, but I still hold my suspicions about them.

First of all, I don't remember ever hearing about them before, so I don't know whether they are trustworthy. Have any of you done any orders with them?

Secondly, they are selling Triethanolamine. This is the primary precursor to one of the Nitrogen Mustards-- why are the selling that to amateurs? This should be banned under the CWC, no? It is a Schedule II Chemical, unless I'm mistaken.

Haggis - 24-10-2003 at 20:21

A google search for triethanolamine returns The Chemistry Store at number 4. Also, this site: http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/schedules/schedules.htm shows that TEA is not a Schedule II. I couldn't find it under the alphabetical listings either, but there could be other synonyms. The site seems decent, they are lacking many chemicals a true student would really need/want, and the 150000 hits don't mean much, as it could easily be spoofed. I am not sure what to tell you other than this information I offer you here.

DDTea - 25-10-2003 at 09:33

I sent them an e-mail asking several questions about their ordering/reporting procedures... They gave me a rather annoying response.

"In this day in age, why should you be concerned about such things?"

I'm not sure how to handle that question-- I mean, in this day in age, why SHOULDN'T I be concerned about such things? They sound like a trustworthy supplier to you guys?

[Edited on 10-25-03 by Samosa]

Mumbles - 25-10-2003 at 09:59

I have aquantainces that have ordered from them with no problems what so ever. Those orders were in the name of soap and candle making though. If that is any help, I'm glad to supply it. There was no need for any TEA however. Some Hydroxide(Na or K), glycerin, and a few other things were purchased by this individual. Perhaps you should try a "test buy". Just buy a couple not to suspicious things to see if they seem legit.

I am curious to what your message to them said. Expecially to recieve that response.

DDTea - 25-10-2003 at 12:50

I asked them for clarification on their response... This was the message I sent:
Quote:
I don't quite understand your response...

I am concerned about such things because Amateur Chemistry, by its
nature is already suspicious. I have had the neighbors call the Police on my
already out of fear that I am "building bombs" (which I do not do, by the
way...I am a Violinist and I would like to keep my hands). As such, I simply want
privacy when I practice my hobby, without fear of visits from the FBI or DEA
suspecting I'm a drug dealer/terrorist bad guy and me having to explain why
I own a certain solvent or acid, and then let THEM determine if I "should"
have it or not. No, I am not interested in building a big bomb or super poison and starting a revolution; nor am I interested in narcotics (if that is what you were suggesting by the question..). I am a hobbyist, that is all. I do in my "lab" whatever happens to catch my interest at a given time-- but this NEVER involves drugs or explosives or making a profit.

So, before I order anything, I simply want to know how you go about
reporting orders. Thankyou.


Maybe my tone was wrong, but they responded:

Quote:
I think it would be best if you took your business elsewhere.


See, this is the kind of attitude that really pisses me off- and in fact, which irks us all. The infamous "one line responses" to something that took effort to write.

The chemicals I am interested in are Potassium Pyrophosphate and TEA, btw.

[Edited on 10-25-03 by Samosa]

[Edited on 10-25-03 by Samosa]

Haggis - 25-10-2003 at 15:19

This is getting interesting, so I looked into it some more. I just keep getting suspicious feelings, like it is an agency front for a sting. There are a good handfull of other companies that use the same name, and they also sell some borderline chemicals. One that sticks out in my mind from the "T" list of these stores is THF. If they are selling chems such as this, it is likely that they also submit order lists to our friends in the three letter agencies. I would be weary of ordering such things, as you are already 'suspicious' in their eyes for sending that email questioning their reporting policy. I would steer clear of this "Chemistry Store", good Samosa.

DDTea - 25-10-2003 at 16:32

I realize I have made myself suspicious in their eyes by asking about their reporting policy. Strange, most chemical suppliers aren't so secretive about their policies, and especially if asked. In fact, most businesses are very forthcoming with customer concerns.

The problem is, they are the only supplier to Hobbyists and Students, that I can find, that offers Potassium Pyrophosphate or TEA...and I really want the TKPP. Fortunately, that is not a "questionable" chemical ;).

EDIT: after searching through the CWC for a little bit, I found that Triethanolamine is in fact listed. It is a Schedule 3 Chemical, and listed under the "B" section (precursor).

However, by definition, the Schedule 3 Chemicals have alternative uses not related to the production of Chemical Weapons.

[Edited on 10-26-03 by Samosa]

yes, you did look suspicious

Polverone - 25-10-2003 at 19:43

Imagine going into a gun store and, before inquiring about any particular product they carry, you ask them how much information they share (voluntarily or otherwise) with the authorities. Then you give a little speech about how you're not actually thinking of committing any murders, hijacking any airliners, or taking shots at chemical tanker trucks, you're just curious about what law enforcement might learn from them. You'd set off warning bells in my head too.

I am sure that there will be half a dozen people who want to jump in and chastize me for my cavalier attitude, but let me say this: in all the time I've been reading (or running) forums about chemical hobbies, legal or otherwise, I've never heard of anybody getting in trouble with the law solely on the basis of ordering chemicals. If your behavior is as squeaky-clean as your e-mail to this supplier indicated, you wouldn't need to be hesitant about ordering in the first place.

DDTea - 26-10-2003 at 10:29

Damn. So, should I set up a new e-mail account, and just order? Or forget that company altogether? I don't believe anyone will get in trouble soley for ordering chemicals... but ordering TEA or THF, for example, may set off some warning bells in the three-letter agencies, and it could be the basis for an investigation. I simply like to prepare for the worst.

[Edited on 10-26-03 by Samosa]

vulture - 26-10-2003 at 11:13

I know of one case here in Belgium where someone got arrested for buying KClO4 off ebay. They didn't press any charges, but the whole lab was cleaned out and he had to pay a fine.

Also, if he ever picks up pyrotechnics again (there were NO HE's found!) he'll dissapear behind bars.

So think twice or anonymize...

can you clarify?

Polverone - 27-10-2003 at 02:09

From what Philou and others have posted over time, it seems that KClO4 and other chemicals can be bought without too much trouble within Belgium itself. Is this incorrect? Are there specific chemicals that possession of is forbidden? Or was it the way that he bought it that was a problem?

vulture - 27-10-2003 at 09:43

I know a shops that sells it OTC, but for an atrocious price.

The person in question bought KClO4 off ebay canada. Customs intercepted the package and he got a visit from the EOD.

[Edited on 27-10-2003 by vulture]

Bob - 28-10-2003 at 08:38

So basically this means that importing it into the EU is illegal. If you buy it from Germany nothing would happen? Anyway, KMnO4 has other purposes than pyro, what would happen if you just want to do some organic chemistry experiments?

Anyway, I always thought Belgium was the fireworks capital of the world.

vulture - 28-10-2003 at 08:47

We're talking about KClO4, not KMnO4, that's a very big difference. KMnO4 won't arise any suspicion.

Belgium is the fireworks capital of the world, but that has nothing to do with acquiring chemicals.

Chemistry store

chloric1 - 28-10-2003 at 20:08

I have purchased many items from the Chemistry store without incident. Most of the stuff I purchased were surfactants and some alkalies and use these to formulate my house cleaners becuase it is at least 50% cheaper this way!

Samosa=meat sandwich

Hermes_Trismegistus - 27-11-2003 at 23:19

Read "SOURCES", by Strike

and

Never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never......

Mention the Big three...drugs, bombs, or poisons when purchasing chemicals.

Never, not in a joking manner, not in an offhand manner, not in any manner......normal chemists talk about those things the way parents talk about child pornography.....

VERY SELDOM!!!!

and never when they go to the porno store on saturday night!!!!

DDTea - 28-11-2003 at 01:12

Good advice, and so i have learned the big lesson the hard way-- should have done more research prior to mailing. :( Well, I guess I got a false sense of security from e-mailing the guys at Pyrotek-- they did not get very touchy when i asked about their privacy policies. No worries, I have taken note of my mistakes, and I am finding new strategies. :)

...and looking back on my little diatribe, I can't believe how incredibly stupid that was. Oh well. I'm sure we've all had an attack of the dumbass once before ;)

[Edited on 11-28-03 by Samosa]

vulture - 28-11-2003 at 01:32

Ever tried the wolve in sheep clothes approach?

Mail them a complaint. You're a soccer mom who's son is a science nut and you've found a log which shows him visiting their site and looking at EEEEVVVUUUUUULLL chemicals! My god!

Hermes_Trismegistus - 28-11-2003 at 02:49

Didn't mean to flame Samosa

but just out of curiousity, did you ever look into pyrotek? Chek out their links?



I KNOW those guys aren't a front for anything more conservative than the UFO abduction survivors group!

I would be second-guessing my own normally liberal policies about open-purchasing when ordering from those guys, not because of those guys, but because I would hazard a guess that they have attracted a great deal of attention from certain parties (FIBBIES?)
regarding their political beleifs

Know what I mean, Jelly Bean?!?!

ok ok

Organikum - 28-11-2003 at 12:00

you are right hermes.

samosa made everything wrong he can make wrong.

actually I made nearly the same mistakes the first time I ordered chemicals.

uhuhuuu.
no. thats not sooooo long ago, just about four years or so.
Could bite my ass when only thinking on it.

Big tip:
Make your ordering experiences only with rather unsuspicious chemicals - order the critical stuff only after you know how this is done. This has to be learned by doing.

Even bigger tip:
Read my post in the other thread of Hermes.

THF from Pyrotek

adroit_synth - 13-1-2004 at 21:54

Sadly, one of my buddies ordered THF (Reagent, ACS as they claim) and he recieved the aminomethyl analouge or tetrahydrofurfurylamine. This guy is stuck with this crap now for he fears to enquire as to WTF happened or send it back. Anyone know if anything else on there is not what they say it is?

guaguanco - 14-1-2004 at 13:09

Quote:
Originally posted by adroit_synth
Sadly, one of my buddies ordered THF (Reagent, ACS as they claim) and he recieved the aminomethyl analouge or tetrahydrofurfurylamine. This guy is stuck with this crap now for he fears to enquire as to WTF happened or send it back. Anyone know if anything else on there is not what they say it is?


Why shouldn't he send it back? If he wasn't too scared to order it, he shouldn't be too scared to exchange it.
It sounds like more like an honest mistake than anything else.

DDTea - 14-1-2004 at 14:36

Fortunately, I didn't make EVERY mistake possible... I did not give my actual name; just an internet alias-- one of many. If I need to order chemicals from the Chemistry Store in the future, I will simply setup a new hotmail account and maintain a very innocent and professional feeling :). But that won't be for a while yet; don't really need anything right now.

guaguanco - 14-1-2004 at 14:56

Quote:
Originally posted by Samosa
Fortunately, I didn't make EVERY mistake possible... I did not give my actual name; just an internet alias-- one of many. If I need to order chemicals from the Chemistry Store in the future, I will simply setup a new hotmail account and maintain a very innocent and professional feeling :).

The key here is to be professional. Presumably they are also a professional business that is obeying all local, state and federal laws involving sales of chemicals and equipment. The last thing they want to hear is 'are you going to report me if I order illegal materials?' If you order methyamine, of *course* they'll report you.:cool:
Triethanolamine is widely used in things like shampoos
http://www.horacemann.org/academics/science/ahom/pages/triet...
so it's hard to ban it outright.

THF

adroit_synth - 20-1-2004 at 20:03

Tetrahydrofurfurylamine was not on the website so he assumed it was on purpose. So you really think he should send it back?

guaguanco - 20-1-2004 at 21:52

Quote:
Originally posted by adroit_synth
Tetrahydrofurfurylamine was not on the website so he assumed it was on purpose. So you really think he should send it back?

Absolutely. This is a professional, legal transaction. They sent him the wrong thing. Why should he skulk away like it was a drug deal gone bad?

Mendeleev - 13-2-2004 at 21:44

I noticed acetic anhydride was not on the DEA scheduled lists, yet everywhere you go they require permits to buy it, can anyone explain.

Magpie - 13-2-2004 at 21:53

This is a DEA List II "essential" chemical. See my post of 1/18/04.

Haggis - 16-2-2004 at 11:54

Much to my amusement last night while I was shaving, I saw something very interesting on the can. I commonly read ingredient lists on most products, but skip shampoos and the like, as they rarely have anything pure. I picked up my 'Edge Pro Gel', one for sensitive skin, and found that the number three ingredient was good ol' triethanolamine. What a pleasant shock. "Samosa, thou shall rejoice," I said, or some form of that statement.

Horribly impure and contaminated, but a fun thought none the less... "Nitrogen mustards from shaving cream".

DDTea - 16-2-2004 at 17:51

If one is not terribly concerned about product purity, I'm sure it would be possible to do a quick-and-dirty extraction of the TEA (to at least remove SOME of the impurities), and then put it through a reaction with excess Chlorinator, thus getting SOME Nitrogen Mustard-- even if a negligible amount in an unusable form. But then, we don't need PURE Nitrogen Mustard, do we? It would be illegal to make it! :D