Sciencemadness Discussion Board

US Customs New Laptop Measure

chemoleo - 9-9-2008 at 18:00

This was sent to employees of an unnamed company (I don't work there!)
Quote:

US Customs has a new procedure where they can seize your laptop when arriving in the US . They may copy your information for analysis.

The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has the authority to seize a laptop and retain it long enough to assess whether the individual is taking anything unlawful across the border. Anyone who challenges a DHS or Transportation Security Administration (TSA) official as they execute their responsibilities will only generate suspicion that the individual has something to hide, which will only provoke DHS/TSA to be even more curious.



What you should do if your *** laptop is seized by DHS/TSA:
1. Identify yourself as a *** employee.
2. Explain that the laptop is *** property and used for business purposes.
3. State that you are happy to cooperate in any way DHS/TSA requests.



If, for any reason, DHS/TSA keeps your laptop and tells you to leave the airport, you should:
1. Obtain the name of the official who took your laptop.
2. Notify your department security contact to open an incident report in the Incident Response Tracking system located at ***. In the report explain what occurred. Provide the date, time, airport, name of DHS/TSA official, and a recap of what was said to you and what you said to DHS/TSA. Also include if any non-work-related content is on the laptop, and if so, what that is (such as photos of friends/family).
3. Global Security will determine next steps including contacting DHS/TSA.



Next Steps before you travel to the United States :
• Ensure you have *** identification available during your business trip (such as a business card or *** badge).
• Back up your data before leaving for your business trip. Recommended back-up solutions are PC Data Back-Up or ***'s External BackUp Solution.



FAQ’s:
Should you give out the password to your laptop?
If requested by the US Customs official, yes, you should cooperate. You should change your passwords once the laptop is returned to you.


I find this truly shocking. When are our letters, books, pictures photographed or copied, when travelling, just to ensure they contain nothing 'unlawful'? Why is it justified to potentially copy the entire content of a harddrive?
Why do we put up with it?
People everywhere in the world are forced to put up with these new measures, executed by the US alone. If every country does that, what are we left with? An information cold war?

The person who sent me this information stated, when I questioned this - that we put up with this (here in Europe) because the US is a market, great for vendors/sellers from abroad, and that Europe (and much of the world) is dependent on it. That, in the person's own words, is why China gets away with almost anything. I think this is correct. Odd that in Europe, there certainly is a market but they don't do such things - perhaps because they squabble too much. All that Europe does is to provide i.e. 30 datasets on European airplane passengers to the US, but not vice versa. The sweet blackmail being, "Europeans, we won't allow your planes in otherwise".

Anyway I wanted to make you aware of this, fellow European travellers. Take care to not take your various files across.

Please keep any debate civil and rational, or this thread will be locked.

[Edited on 10-9-2008 by chemoleo]

MagicJigPipe - 9-9-2008 at 18:48

So, basically, they can steal secret corporate and/or personal information (and use it) without paying a dime for it.

This is bad.

not_important - 9-9-2008 at 19:56

Rather old news :
Quote:
By Alexandra Marks| Staff Writer for The Christian Science Monitor/ July 10, 2008 edition
Is a laptop searchable in the same way as a piece of luggage? The Department of Homeland Security believes it is.

For the past 18 months, immigration officials at border entries have been searching and seizing some citizens’ laptops, cellphones, and BlackBerry devices when they return from international trips.

In some cases, the officers go through the files while the traveler is standing there. In others, they take the device for several hours and download the hard drive’s content. After that, it’s unclear what happens to the data.

http://features.csmonitor.com/innovation/2008/07/10/us-defen...
Quote:
By Alex Kingsbury
Posted June 24, 2008


Returning from a vacation to Germany in February, freelance journalist Bill Hogan was selected for additional screening by customs officials at Dulles International Airport outside Washington. Agents searched his luggage, he said, "then they told me that they were impounding my laptop."

Shaken by the encounter, Hogan examined his bags and found the agents had also inspected the memory card from his camera. "It was fortunate that I didn't use [the laptop] for work," he said, "or I would have had to call up all my sources and tell them that the government had just seized their information." When customs offered to return the computer nearly two weeks later, Hogan had it shipped to his lawyer.


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=139159

thread includes links to the two government documents detailing the polices.

Note that MP3 players are included in this, because:
Quote:
A pair of DHS policies from last month say that customs agents can routinely--as a matter of course--seize, make copies of, and "analyze the information transported by any individual attempting to enter, re-enter, depart, pass through, or reside in the United States."
DHS claims the border search of electronic information is useful to detect terrorists, drug smugglers, and people violating "copyright or trademark laws."


A friend who travels to the States fairly frequently is considering getting a really cheap used out-of-date laptop, dump a number of typical tourist photos and a bunch of binary files of random and transcendental numbers on it, then infecting it with the worst viruses and similar malware that they can collect, and take this with them when they travel in hopes it will get examined.

The potential for industrial espionage has been pointed out, the US government has patted people on the head and told them not to worry, everything will be OK. A number of high tech businesses have thought otherwise, and are going to strongly encrypted on-line storage instead of have that information carried on a laptop.

Bruce Schneier wrote on this early this year, and described what he would do:
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/02/us_customs_sei...

Sauron - 9-9-2008 at 21:07

And I suppose you think the UK government or the German government or the French etc etc cannot do exactly the same thing anytime they want to?

Furthermore, I know for a fact that none of the many international travellers I am acquainted with, who travel with laptops and notebooks, has ever had this happen.

MagicJigPipe - 9-9-2008 at 21:57

No doubt. But if it happens to one "innocent" person that is one too many.

Even if it happens to a "guilty" person I don't think it's good. The end result doesn't always justify the means.

chemrox - 9-9-2008 at 22:15

I'm appalled of course. One more example of the current administration handing Al Queda the victory. I also think it's fool hardy to carry company secrets in a laptop in unencrypted files. Use pgp for files and emails. As a matter of routine .. not just for 'sensitive' material.

Sauron - 10-9-2008 at 03:02

The US and UK have absolutely massive intercept capability for all forms of telecommunications worldwide. Use a phone, cell phone, fax, send an email, use the Internet, or transmit data over a LANor WAN or leased line, microwave link, whatever. Of course most of that out to several decimel places is just garbage noise and of no interest, but the proposition that business information and communications (or personal either) are somehow immune from COMINT is incredibly naive.

When entering the US, your effects can in principle be inspected. Compact disks for example can be checked to verify that no child porn is in them, or that illegally copied copyrighted material such as movies, are not being smuggled in. Few would argue with the first, and rarely does ICE go after the latter unless a lot of DVDs are involved. I see no difference between these and the contents of a notebook HDD.

ICE is not AFAIK copying hard drives routinely. The odds against their doing so in any given instance are staggering. So who gives a rat's ass?

Encrypting your files for no good reason is stupoid, and just red flags your system for attention. Anyone who thinks that they are going to keep NSA or GCHQ out that way, is ignorant of their capabilities. The bottom line is if you have material you do not want to share, then don't leave it on a nonremovable HDD when crossing a border.

franklyn - 10-9-2008 at 04:46

This is just dawning on people now
http://www.nysun.com/national/customs-agents-copy-travelers-...

Key to security is plausible denial with nothing apparent.
Software RAID is available with Windows 2000 or XP Pro. Encrypting two hard drives
in RAID 0 renders the information unrecoverable by any forensic method unless both
drives are used together.
You can copy the dynamic RAID partition from one drive as a compressed file then
erase that RAID partiton from it's hard drive. Use an internet accessible file host to
store the compressed file so you can download online and reinstall back into the
erased RAID partition. You should store both of the RAID partitions for backup.

YES you can do this with USB flash thumb drives also
http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/flash.ars/8


See -> 64. Stupid Disk Tricks for XP Part 1: Dynamic Disks
Here _ http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=1681&pa...

See -> 66. Stupid Disk Tricks for XP Part 3: Creating Software RAID 0
Here _ http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=1681&pa...

Basic Storage Versus Dynamic Storage in Windows XP
http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=314343

How To Convert to Basic and Dynamic Disks in Windows XP Professional
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/309044/EN-US

How To Use Disk Management to Configure Dynamic Disks in Windows XP
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/308424/en-us


Partition image software
http://www.drivesnapshot.de/en/index.htm
http://www.runtime.org/driveimage-xml.htm


Erasing methods and software

Entering the " cipher " command at a DOS prompt in XP and Win2K will securely erase
already deleted files inside a directory. Type cipher /? for a list of options.
Hit the Windows Key and R , type in " cmd.exe " without quotes and press enter
At the command prompt type the following :
cipher /W:C:\"Documents and Settings\Username\Local Settings\Temporary Internet Files\Content.IE5"
this will clean the Content.IE5 directory.
In this case you D O use the quotes ( this allows DOS to recognize the spaces in
the folder name ) and \Username\ is your windows account name.

Other file overwriting utilities
Shredder
http://www.analogx.com/contents/download/system/shred.htm
Simple file shredder
http://www.scar5.com
Ultra Shredder
http://www.xtort.net/xtort/ultra.php
BCWipe
http://www.jetico.com/index.htm#/bcwipe3.htm
Earaser
http://www.heidi.ie/eraser
Necrofile
http://www.nthsystem.com/nfinfo.html

____________________________

Related references

http://www.governmentsecurity.org/articles/Anonymitycomplete...
http://www.jabpage.org/posts/filesec.html

.

The_Davster - 10-9-2008 at 05:02

Quote:
Originally posted by chemoleo


Quote:



The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has the authority to seize a laptop and retain it long enough to assess whether the individual is taking anything unlawful across the border.








There...they finally said it....some types of information are now illegal.

Sauron - 10-9-2008 at 06:52

Aw, come on, The Dayster. Child porn is illegal. Pirated copyright material is illegal. Both are at their essence "information" just zeros and ones, so there is no great watershed here. Customs has a duty to interdict contraband and there are two blatant examples of contraband "information" that can easily be smuggled via HDD.

Now personally I could care less about pirate videos, but kiddie porn is another matter.

Polverone - 10-9-2008 at 08:00

If you need to get your terrorist contact list or secret chocolate chip cookie recipe across the border without inspection, do what some businesses are now doing. Bring a completely clean laptop into the US and load the encrypted data from a foreign server once you're past customs. Upload any changes you need to make before leaving the country and wipe the laptop again for exit if you want to be really sure.

Sauron is correct that any border agency can do what the US is doing, at least in theory. There are really no restrictions on what indignities a nation can impose before it lets travelers in. I'm much more skeptical of the idea that the NSA can easily decrypt any encrypted file or transmission. Even if they do secretly have unicorn magic that cuts through any cipher, it's apparently not shared with other government agencies. When the FBI wanted to bring down a high-profile encryption-using mobster they still had to physically break into his house and tap his keyboard. If you think your files are going to be intercepted, you can encrypt them but worry that someone might still have the secret of how to read them, or not encrypt them and rest assured that anyone can certainly read them.

Sauron - 10-9-2008 at 08:20

I know something about RAID subsystems since I operate a 1 terabyte hardware RAID 0 on an ESATA port. This is a CalDigit box with a pair of 500 Gb Hitachi HDDs and it works well for high definition video editing in real time.

I, and others involved in HD video etc, would not trust software RAID as far as we could throw Redmond WA. So the proposition of doing what franklyn proposes just to avoid the potential prying eyes of Big Nanny, strikes me as a cure much more loathsome than the disease.

As to "illegal" information:

There are rather broad classes of information that are illegal under federal law, specifically the Iternational Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) or whatever they are called these days, adminsiered by the State Dept Office of Munitions Control and enforced by ICE, and corresponding laws under Commerce applying to dual-use technology. It is illegal to EXPORT from the US any such information. Pertinent to chemistry is data pertaining to chemical weapons, military and dual use explosives, and certain kinds of propellant systems for rockets and missiles. It's a long list and the print is pretty fine, but my point is that yu can get in dutch with the govt going in either direction across the border. Technical information does not need to be classified to be proscribed from export without a license. Likewise it need not have been developed under a US government contract. They go so far as to require State Dept formal approval for displays and exhibits at trade shows for defense products and dual use items outside of the US. The penalties for offenses are staggering.

[Edited on 10-9-2008 by Sauron]

MagicJigPipe - 10-9-2008 at 09:42

Something that might be ironic about using encryption.

Isn't it illegal to export certain types of encryption ciphers/"codes" out of the US without some sort of license? The reason I think this is because I know I've seen clauses mentioning that in EULAs of certain pieces of software.

I'm not sure of the details of this matter. Could someone tell me more?

P.S. Could someone show me how to use PGP. I remember trying to a while back and remembering that there was something that was annoying about it (money possibly?) I do remember that I stopped trying. Does anyone want to help me get started?

[Edited on 9-10-2008 by MagicJigPipe]

Sauron - 10-9-2008 at 11:19

AFAIK some types of American encryption software, including commercially available software and/or shareware/freeware, above a certain level of encryption are prohibited from export without a license from State Dept OMC. The current level that is so restricted I do not know or really care as I do not believe in encryption unless it is really needed and I do not need it.

watson.fawkes - 10-9-2008 at 12:08

Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron
AFAIK some types of American encryption software, including commercially available software and/or shareware/freeware, above a certain level of encryption are prohibited from export without a license from State Dept OMC. The current level that is so restricted I do not know or really care as I do not believe in encryption unless it is really needed and I do not need it.
This changed about a decade ago, back when ITAR changed to EAR. The new standard is, very very roughly, if it's freely available, you as a user don't have to worry about any export restrictions. For more details, start with Stanford University's policy.

Sauron - 10-9-2008 at 12:21

Ah. That's nice. I have been out of USA for 20 years so that sort of news often escapes my attention. At one time I was a registered manufacturer under ITAR ($500 a year) and never bothered to get the seperates,equally priced license as an exporter because they were never going to let me export what I made anyway.

franklyn - 10-9-2008 at 12:41

Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron
I, and others involved in HD video etc, would not trust software RAID as far as we could throw Redmond WA.

The only reference that I can find related to your concern is
now only a legacy _ http://support.microsoft.com/kb/266177

Software RAID runs through the CPU the same routine which is
executed by dedicated firmware in a hardware RAID controller.
Hardware is only faster not more nor less reliable. Why else are
enterprise class operating systems the only ones having this
capability. Data backup can also be automatically provided on
the fly, standard practice in any mission critical setting. The
only real difference is that partitions are not fixed in a given
hard drive. Dynamic disk partitions are movable and can span
multiple hard drives. One advantage is that it is then expandable
as needed. This is not much different than having a software
emulated virtual computer.
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc757696.aspx

While not officially supported, just as Win server, WinXp can
run and impliment RAID 5 , see _
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/windowsxp-make-raid-5-ha...
From the start
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/windowsxp-make-raid-5-ha...

.

The_Davster - 10-9-2008 at 15:37

Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron

As to "illegal" information:

There are rather broad classes of information that are illegal under federal law, specifically the Iternational Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) or whatever they are called these days, adminsiered by the State Dept Office of Munitions Control and enforced by ICE, and corresponding laws under Commerce applying to dual-use technology. It is illegal to EXPORT from the US any such information. Pertinent to chemistry is data pertaining to chemical weapons, military and dual use explosives, and certain kinds of propellant systems for rockets and missiles. It's a long list and the print is pretty fine, but my point is that yu can get in dutch with the govt going in either direction across the border. Technical information does not need to be classified to be proscribed from export without a license. Likewise it need not have been developed under a US government contract. They go so far as to require State Dept formal approval for displays and exhibits at trade shows for defense products and dual use items outside of the US. The penalties for offenses are staggering.



Ok, this is more what I was meaning than kiddie porn which is the exception to my objection to these laws. Although I feel the porn is an excuse for fishing expeditions for this sort of info.

This is what I object to, that simple information transport is illegal. There are a bunch of explosives research groups in the US, and many more outside the US, and there are conferences for them in various countries like the Gordon conference or NTREM both of which involve people coming or going from the US with information of this nature. This is a really obscure law, and what I object to is that perfectly legitimate scientists are breaking the law by simply carrying a book of conference proceedings.

Sauron - 10-9-2008 at 19:57

Has DHS gone on such fishing expeditions? (willy-nilly copying of HDDs of travellers.) Not that I've heard of.

Has anyone from USA in those explosives discussion groups been prosecuted under the EAR for unlicensed export of defense information?

If so I am unaware of it.

MagicJigPipe - 10-9-2008 at 21:50

I hate to be the one to say this but, then again I've never been concerned with being politically correct... Information should be free. The people who have kiddie porn on their computers; yeah, they're sick but it's just information. They should be getting at the source. The people that are taking the pictures in the first place.

And remember, "kiddie porn" to the US Govt. is most likely porn with anyone under 18 in it. I bet some of us have under 18 girls on our computers right now without even knowing it.

What about those fine lines? What if a decent guy with a few porn videos gets his laptop searched. Then "they" decide "they" don't like the guy because "porn is immoral" or "against god" (after all the US is a virtual theocracy) so they go ahead and press charges for that bullshit. Would that be right? Is that what the law says about "kiddie porn"?

(yeah, I know, how would "they" know if the people were underage? Well, what if "they" did know somehow. Should someone go to jail for having naked pictures of a 17 year old?)

Also, I agree that searching for "kiddie porn" is just a facade. Do we really think govt. agents care about people molesting children in other countries?

Maybe some. But not collectively I'm sure.


[Edited on 9-10-2008 by MagicJigPipe]

Sauron - 10-9-2008 at 22:23

Given the current attitudes re child porn, my advice is to err on the side of your own safety and that means, if you can't tell if the girl (or boy) is legally adult, do not have the images or videos on your PC, period, end of story. Do not surf porn sites talking about "young" this and "teenage" that and if you are compulsively attracted to such minors, seek professional help before you end up being gang raped by your fellow convicts and most likely castrated by them as well.

Thai girls in their mid 20s often look 10 years younger and some Thai prostitutes cultivate a young look and deliberately attract men with such inclinations. They are in cahoots with corrupt Thai police and carry multiple ID cards in case the trick wants to check their age. Afterwards they show up with the cops and shake the guy down for all his money on threat of arrest, having produced the other ID that says they are under age.

The moral is, stay away from jailbait.

vulture - 11-9-2008 at 12:52

Quote:

The moral is, stay away from jailbait.


Since when is carrying your personal data and property through customs something which justifies random seizure of these?
Even if there is NOTHING illegal on your laptop and you provide full cooperation, US customs can still seize it. Try getting it back then.

Quote:

Has DHS gone on such fishing expeditions? (willy-nilly copying of HDDs of travellers.) Not that I've heard of.


Read the security experts blog which is being linked to here. A woman had her laptop confiscated for no reason at all and NEVER saw it back. This is just legalized theft by government employees. I'm betting that laptop is now in the hands of some DHS agent or his/her kids.

You don't actually believe DHS employees will use discretion when going through your personal information? Read up on varoius scandals where government employees stupidly made sensitive data accessible to the public.

I invite you to take a laptop with detailed accounts of your experiments and travel with it to the US. Let us know how you fare. If you still can, that is. They might be waterboarding your ass in egypt for all we know.

[Edited on 11-9-2008 by vulture]

Sauron - 11-9-2008 at 12:57

Fine, don't visit the US then. But I advise you not to go through Dutch Customs either because of course the same thing could, in principle, happen to you there. Read upthread and see that Polverone conceeded this point, this is NOT US-specific.

vulture - 11-9-2008 at 12:59

FYI, I flew from Amsterdam to Vancouver and back. I had a bag full of electronic gear. NOTHING was checked.

Also, The Netherlands don't abduct people and subject them to torture in foreign countries. Nor do they violate US airspace during such actions.

[Edited on 11-9-2008 by vulture]

Sauron - 11-9-2008 at 13:34

I hear maybe we do that to terrorists, which is just fine with me. In fact the "extraordinary renditions" are one of the rather few things I can really say I am proud and pleased about as an American in the last several decades. Not the least because it so infuriates you Euro types.

Or maybe you think terrorists deserve rights?

IMO terrorists gave up all claim to humanity when they became terrorists.

The only way to fight terrorism is counterterrorism.

Or you can give them a country and call them statesmen. That's been tried as well. Begin was a Irgun terrorist (King David Hotel bombing) and another Israeli PM (Shamir) was a Stern Gang assassin. Killed Count Bernadotte the UN High Commissioner, and Lord Moyne. the UK High Commissioner. Funny old world isn't it?



[Edited on 12-9-2008 by Sauron]

chloric1 - 11-9-2008 at 14:49

Another way to stop terrorism is to stop being terrorists.

chemoleo - 11-9-2008 at 16:52

The point is, the data is only threatened to be copied because it is so easy.
They are not threatening of copying or analysing every book or letter, photograph that enters the country, right?
Thus I think it is done for reasons other than counterterrorism. It's a matter of the US wanting to stick its finger into possibly every citizen that lives on this planet and has means to travel- a global database of all humans alive or somesuch, their interconnections and their patterns, with the US pulling all the strings. I simply mistrust the data hunger of the US - becuase it seeks it solely for the purpose of more power. Again it is the only country that takes prints of all ten fingers, and a photograph (Brazil does now the same as retaliation). What right do they have to do this?

I agree the Euros are weaklings because they don't retaliate in a similar fashion, to insist on 40 datasets on personal information on american citizens, take fingerprints, photographs, and arbitrarily confiscate laptops, copy and analyse data. Becuase after all they might have child porn, plot an attack or whatever. Nevermind the 99.99% that don't. But if every country started behaving in a similar way - do you really think that this would help the world community - guess don't need to answer that. 7 years later, the bottom line of 9/11 is its shameful abuse of power for more power, the shameful introduction of a new 1984.

Sauron - 11-9-2008 at 22:59

This from a citizen of a country which has no real press freedom (D-notices cannot exist in USA), no right to keep and bear arms, and antiterrism laws that are far more draconian than anything the US has, and which have been in place far longer than the mere 7 years since 9/11.

The British have been torturing prisoners in Ireland for centuries. The Americans subject three, only three, terrorist leaders to the very mild technique of waterboarding, which if you ever read a detailed descripotion of it, is laughable, and we get all this high moral tone from the Europeans, including the British.

Waterboarding involves restraining the subject face up on an inclined board so that the feet are raised and head is lowered, covering the face or at least the nostrils and mouth with clear plastic (like saran, cling wrap) and slowly pouring water over the plastic. No water enters the sinuses or lungs or anywhere else. It is entirely psychological duress, not torture. Yes 2 of the three terrorist leaders including Khalid, ops chief of Al Quaeda, started spouting information within a few seconds. Valuable operational information that helped prevent major attacks.

This is another of the few things I am really proud of as an American.

The French of course would have just handed them to their famous Service Action aka Action Direct and used electricity on them.

The Israelis, much the same.

I'm sure detailed firsthand accounts of British Army interrogation techniques from Belfast and the rest of Ulster are available on the net.

HYPOCRITES!

[Edited on 12-9-2008 by Sauron]

chemoleo - 12-9-2008 at 17:28

Quote:
The point is, the data is only threatened to be copied because it is so easy.
They are not threatening of copying or analysing every book or letter, photograph that enters the country, right?
Thus I think it is done for reasons other than counterterrorism. It's a matter of the US wanting to stick its finger into possibly every citizen that lives on this planet and has means to travel- a global database of all humans alive or somesuch, their interconnections and their patterns, with the US pulling all the strings. I simply mistrust the data hunger of the US - becuase it seeks it solely for the purpose of more power. Again it is the only country that takes prints of all ten fingers, and a photograph (Brazil does now the same as retaliation). What right do they have to do this?

I do not see the connection of your last post to the above. I smell a strawman.
I also do not see how my nationality (or from other members, as you repeatedly smell hypocrisy based on the place of birth??:o) does come into play with respect to the extraordinary measures the US is single-handedly undertaking in the name of 'national security' (I'm referring to my first post, and the post prior to your last one). My criticism and worry thereof is again unrelated to the country I might live in or have grown up in.
But I very much see the tendencies of today's world, particularly of those countries that think they 'can': More control, more monitoring, more direct infringements into privacy, and so on. The US is the worlds forerunner for a country so explicitly democratic and 'free'. Followed by China and numerous others, but at least they don't claim the former.
And the question is, what right do they have, to invade your thoughts, your life, your space just because you enter a country, buy certain goods, read certain information or news? This is a question that baffled several Chinese I asked, I imagine this is becoming a strange question on the other side of the Atlantic, too.

You are correct, the solution is to not travel there. Oh, believe me, other countries, in particular some European ones, think it's fashionable to follow the American lead: Online monitoring & data storage, text messaging surveillance, introduction of government Trojans to check out your computer - the list goes on. But I grant you that, without the steps taken by the US in the first place, this wouldn't happen here (Western Europe). I have in fact about as much scorn for some European politicans or governments. I certainly include Britain too.

It is beyond me why someone who endorses removal of all restrictions to drugs (to which I might even agree) is so happy to restrict personal privacy and freedom and personal space so readily; to go beyond, and endorse potentially arbitrary searches, detainment and torture, whilst taking pride in it. Particularly, given that this very policy of privacy enchroachment, enacted abroad in the form of missiles and wars, serves ultimately only to perpetuate the cycle of more freedom infringements back at home (or in the West at large).

To quote Benjamin Franklin:
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"

What more is there to be said?

[Edited on 13-9-2008 by chemoleo]

Sauron - 12-9-2008 at 20:11

Boring and argumentative.

12AX7 - 12-9-2008 at 20:50

Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron
Boring and argumentative.


So no rebuttal = concede the point?

Sauron - 12-9-2008 at 20:58

I did not discern any point worth anyone's attention. Certainly not mine.

chemoleo - 13-9-2008 at 06:40

Good.
In this case let's get back on topic and in the future keep your wild off-topic rantings and cheap provocations to yourself.

Edit:
Quote:
Boring and argumentative.

Now that you remind me - that certainly applies to a good fraction of your average 6 messages per day. I'll be keeping an eye out.

[Edited on 13-9-2008 by chemoleo]

Sauron - 13-9-2008 at 07:33

Here we have a so called Moderator abusing his ill-granted petty authority to censor someone who he has repeatedly proked.

You really are a hypocrite, chemoleo.

Go ahead and abuse your petty officialdom some more. The wole world is watching.

chemoleo - 13-9-2008 at 07:51

Scoff all you want - posts WILL be edited or deleted if you fail to keep your tone civil, and if the sole purpose is to insult or have the last word. You are no exception to any other member.


Edit: Thread closed, it is not a repository for insults. Threads leaning political here really are impossible. Apologies for raising the subject.

[Edited on 13-9-2008 by chemoleo]