Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Home labs and legal issues

Home labs and legal issues

BethanyHalford - 10-10-2008 at 10:43

I'm a reporter with Chemical & Engineering News, and I'm putting together a story about home laboratories.

After reading about Victor Deeb, the chemist in Massachusetts whose lab was recently shut down by the local authorities, I'm wondering, How does one set up a home lab without running afoul of the law?

What do you need to take into consideration in terms of the kinds of chemicals you can use, how you store them, and how you dispose of them? And since most laws seem to be local, how do you find this information?

In addition to replying here, feel free to call or email me.

Thanks for your help,

Bethany Halford
Associate Editor
Chemical & Engineering News
732-906-8302
b_halford@acs.org

joeflsts - 10-10-2008 at 11:40

Quote:

Originally posted by BethanyHalford
I'm a reporter with Chemical & Engineering News, and I'm putting together a story about home laboratories.

After reading about Victor Deeb, the chemist in Massachusetts whose lab was recently shut down by the local authorities, I'm wondering, How does one set up a home lab without running afoul of the law?

What do you need to take into consideration in terms of the kinds of chemicals you can use, how you store them, and how you dispose of them? And since most laws seem to be local, how do you find this information?

In addition to replying here, feel free to call or email me.

Thanks for your help,

Bethany Halford
Associate Editor
Chemical & Engineering News
732-906-8302
b_halford@acs.org

What makes you think having a home lab is against the law?

Joe

BethanyHalford - 10-10-2008 at 11:51

I don't think it's against the law to have a lab in your home, but I spoke to a lawyer today who told me that there are regulations regarding amounts of hazardous materials, chemical storage, and disposal.

Is this not the case?

Also, in Mr. Deeb's case, there's been a preliminary injuction preventing him from operating a lab in his home. You can read about it here.

I guess I'm wondering how does one figure out what's OK to do in a home lab, and what is going to have a hazmat team at your door?

Magpie - 10-10-2008 at 14:50

Quote:

I guess I'm wondering how does one figure out what's OK to do in a home lab, and what is going to have a hazmat team at your door?

Hello Bethany,

That's a good question. In my opinion you will be just fine experimenting with consumer products in their original containers (ie, vinegar, baking soda, root killer, drain cleaner, laundry bleach, etc) as long as there is no glassware involved. Once you get beyond that, law enforcement tends to view every lab as a meth lab.

Worst case scenario (has happened, as you have found out): Once they get a warrant they potentially will call in the SWAT team and hazmat team, seize your "lab", your computer, and other records, and put you through a living hell until it is sorted out in court. Meantime they have damaged your property and your reputation. If it turns out you are innocent and they are wrong,"... oh well, these things happen." You may not even get an apology, and most surely no compensation for damages, physical and mental. It is just another day at the office for LE.

Bethany, I hope you can sort out the facts on this trampling of our freedoms. This kind of thing really puts the damper on the activity of anyone interested in home chemistry. It's not the kind of nurturing we should be giving our scientists and does not bode well for the future of the US as a leader in science.

I'm looking forward to reading your article in Chemical & Engineering News. Best wishes.

chemrox - 10-10-2008 at 16:29

Most chemists had labs in their homes in the past. With the plethora of regs today one risks having everybody from the fire marshall to the DEA raiding his house. There are so many laws in the US you're almost guarenteed to be in violation of several at any given time. I had one but always felt nervous about it. Now I confine my lab work to the business premises. As far as waste is concerned I'm a CEG (conditionally exempt small quantity generator) and can go to the disposal site one day a week and file a form.

jarynth - 10-10-2008 at 17:39

Hello Bethany!

Quote:

Originally posted by BethanyHalford
How does one set up a home lab without running afoul of the law?

What do you need to take into consideration in terms of the kinds of chemicals you can use, how you store them, and how you dispose of them?

For the practice of basement chemistry, best would be to live in an area zoned as 'industrial' that also allows for residential facilities, eg factory workers often live near their workplace ('best for what' is arguable, you probably wouldn't want to live in that area).

As to disposal: just have a set of different tanks for your waste. You do not really need to dispose of it (unless you handle large amounts of chemicals, which would rapidly fill them), they just better be there in case of inspection. Some cities have public tanks where you can throw your dangerous waste for 'free' (you pay for it with tax money anyway).

Most of the common organic solvents pollute less than gasoline when burned; that could be an alternative. Inorganic solutions can just be concentrated and dried up. Heavy metals should be recovered (often expensive to buy), eg by precipitating them with 'light' metals, Al foil, etc. Halogenated organic liquids are trickier; evaporating them wouldn't be healthful and environmentally friendly. How are they disposed of industrially?

As far as I know, home chemists are wary of the legislation, as they widely believe it is written mainly by scientifically challenged safety-obsessed apes, who know little to nothing about the legitimate uses of chemicals but nevertheless set out to destroy any kind of individual experimentation with the self-righteous rage of publicly appointed gorillas, without regard to the actual dangers involved and the possible consequences for the economy and the future of research, for fear of a vague, often imaginary threat against the 'normals', those herd-following sheeple who see evil in everything that is not institutional or corporate or sanctioned by the mainstram media.

That said, I believe most adult amateur chemists act according to a personal moral code respectful of the fellow citizen and of the environment even without knowing the explicit word of the local law. They are better able to weigh the risks involved in and the safety measures required by a specific chemical or experiment than ivory-tower, bill-signing bureaucrats or doughnut-munchin', badge-wavin' neonazis. Of course, my intent is not to generalize to any professional category necessary in a democratic country the behavior of a minority, despite these usually constitute the most striking example of the misguided waste of public funds.

It is often so, that home chemists care about their own and their loved ones' life and health and try to implement several measures (fume hoods, chemical cabinets, safety locks, avoiding the nasties and the drugsies) they see fit. Clearly, due to the (fortunate) lack of oversight in this private setting, these measures are sometimes incomplete or inefficient, but the comparison is often made with the past decades, where inventors worked individually, often in their own home, with much less information about chemical dangers than today, but nevertheless came up with welcomed novelties that unforeseeably improved our lives and contributed to civilization, paradoxically to the point where we feel we need to protect ourselves from any learnful disaster, any change of the status quo, any improvement.

jarynth@gmx.com

[Edited on 10-10-2008 by jarynth]

starman - 10-10-2008 at 19:02

Quote:

And since most laws seem to be local, how do you find this information?

I think it important to remember that these relatively new repressive regulations affect many areas of the world.
In Western Australia where I reside they recently passed(2004) legislation making possession of basic glassware & equipment(condensers,RBF,heating mantles etc) a crime
punishable by up to 5 years incarceration.Amazingly, sellers of these items are under no obligation to disclose the criminal nature of possession of these forbidden objects(they are however required to sight ID and report to police within 24 hours.)
And bad luck to you if you have spent years and thousands of dollars on your lab.Nobody's interested in this geeky stuff,you must be a meth cook.

[Edited on 10-10-2008 by starman]

Panache - 10-10-2008 at 19:03

Bethany,
Please do not misconstrue the wariness of home chemists as signs of guilt or illegality, as is easily done. I feel that there is nothing most of us would enjoy more than being able to share our pastime with the community at large if it wasn't for the persecution already discussed.
If it were not for forums such as these there would be little to no communication between those of us with an ilk as this, and as such it is guarded preciously.

I cannot add to your story as i'm not from the USA, however feel free to mention you found me interesting and engaging, nice and cooperative, a general all round great guy.

Nicodem - 11-10-2008 at 00:59

Quote:

Originally posted by BethanyHalford
I don't think it's against the law to have a lab in your home, but I spoke to a lawyer today who told me that there are regulations regarding amounts of hazardous materials, chemical storage, and disposal.

Is this not the case?

I think in most EU countries (in mine for sure) there are regulations that efficiently make it completely impossible to legally have a chem lab at home. An individual can buy much chemicals and glassware legally, that is not the real problem. The problem is elsewhere. For example, you need a special licence to store chemicals at home. To obtain this licence as an individual is impossible, since you can not store chemicals in a residential area (not even small and innocuous quantities used by amateurs), your storage facility need to fulfil a lot of very expensive safety requirements. And needless to say that if an individual would ask for such permit, his house would be raided by the police and all his chemistry set confiscated "for analysis" (and I'm talking about places where there is no meth&terrorist propaganda!). The good thing about it is that if you get raided by the police you don't end up in prison - you just pay those approximately 10 thousand EUR for breaking the regulations and loose all your chemistry related property as it gets confiscated. So if you have an annoying neighbour that hates you, you might get in big financial troubles and labelled as criminal in the newspapers.

[Edited on 11/10/2008 by Nicodem]

Rosco Bodine - 13-10-2008 at 11:00

Regulatory oppression by nanny state bureaucrats is always going to be an aggravation for "townies". One means of greatly reducing such aggravation is to move to a country estate in an unincorporated area , preferably having a moat and a drawbridge to discourage unwelcome
visitors, a real bonus being that no licenses are needed either to be purchased for hunting and fishing on ones own land

So long as there is no overtly obvious criminal activity as would be noticed from a distance and trouble
the authorities sufficiently to bring them calling, then they seem content enough to collect their taxes and leave such
country folks alone. Being left alone is a fundamental constitutional right and perhaps the most precious one of all. That right will never be allowed in cities because of the close proximity of neighbors bringing territorial crowding which brings restrictions on behavior in many ways and "code enforcement" headaches for anyone doing anything out of the ordinary, which really doesn't even need specificity but may be arbitrarily designated as a "public nuisance" which simply is anything whatsoever that the neighbors or regulators don't like. Living in town you will have to walk their walk and not step out of line and if you find that too constraining, then leave town and move to the country. Everybody should just be aware that this is the way it has always been and always will be.
Your best remedy for a problem getting along with other people is putting more distance between yourself and
"them". The further away from the city you get, generally
the more freedom and privacy you will have but of course
you must be agreeable to the greater solitude as well
the further travel to merchants and other metropolitan
services. One should live where they and their pursuits
are welcome , but you can't change the geography, so
when you encounter trouble, you change your place on it.
It is parallel to the problem that amateur astronomy has with "light pollution" from excessively lighted and omnidirectional "security lighted" areas , which is an
absolute futility trying to change . They *won't* change,
no matter how stupid, so when you look for a place
where you can see the stars at night, plan on taking a drive out into the country.

vulture - 13-10-2008 at 13:07

Define chem lab. Why is someone with an interest in chemistry and a few liters of flammable solvent, appropriately labeled, and some acids, also appropriately labeled, different from joe sixpack with two gallons of gas in his basement next to the bottle of drain opener and pool chlorinator?

There is quite some hypocrisy in all this. I wonder if the average person knows that their filled gas tank contains more than a liter of benzene, something the authorities would probably have fined Mr. Deeb for, had they found it in his basement.

You'll also be interested in this wired article, which deals with the same issue and also contains a statement from this site's founder, Matthew Ernst:

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.06/chemistry_pr.html

[Edited on 13-10-2008 by vulture]

Magpie - 13-10-2008 at 13:29

I think Bethany should also take a look at the following thread, which describes the efforts of author Robert Bruce Thompson to assist home chemists:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=7629&a...

Rosco Bodine - 13-10-2008 at 14:17

Hmmmm....If I were Mr. Deeb, this is the song I'd be singing.....on the road. And the local yocals could count
my missing tax money while I vote with my feet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=the0mpVmH7I

Jor - 13-10-2008 at 15:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Nicodem

Quote:

So that means that the neighnour having 25 liters of gasoline in his garage, together with 25kilo of KNO3 fertilizer does not need this regulation? Can they really harm you when you have less then 10 liter of flammable solvent (I have 5-6L), about 5 liter acid, 2Kg oxidiser, 1Kg toxic metal salts and other toxins ? And then ofcourse a lot of nonhazardous materials? I think s long as you don'y have large quantities you should be fine. Having gallons of solvents, you deserve (in my opinion) to have a 10000 dollar fine.
And what if you buy a safety cabinet for flammable solvents, a officially approved one? Are you still illegal, if at all without the cabinet?
My father will give me a present for my exams of about 800 eur (yes very lucky!) and I'm thinking of buying a safety cabinet for flammables and other stuff. But if I'm illegal anyway, without it or with it, I won't buy it.

The_Davster - 13-10-2008 at 19:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Jor

So that means that the neighnour having 25 liters of gasoline in his garage, together with 25kilo of KNO3 fertilizer does not need this regulation? Can they really harm you when you have less then 10 liter of flammable solvent (I have 5-6L), about 5 liter acid, 2Kg oxidiser, 1Kg toxic metal salts and other toxins ? And then ofcourse a lot of nonhazardous materials? I think s long as you don'y have large quantities you should be fine. Having gallons of solvents, you deserve (in my opinion) to have a 10000 dollar fine.
And what if you buy a safety cabinet for flammable solvents, a officially approved one? Are you still illegal, if at all without the cabinet?
My father will give me a present for my exams of about 800 eur (yes very lucky!) and I'm thinking of buying a safety cabinet for flammables and other stuff. But if I'm illegal anyway, without it or with it, I won't buy it.

Huh? Flammable solvents such as hydrocarbons you mean? Pentane, and higher alkanes, and also substituted and unsubstituted benzenes? Would you want these fines to only apply when the solvents are in nice labelled reagent bottles, but not when mixed together in dozen gallon tanks for use as fuel?

In the end, we are not dealing with scientists making rational rules. We are dealing with politicians and their lackeys who don't know chemistry making regulations to appease more morons.

The term 'hazardous material' is again a function of the bottle. What was origionally 'household product' becomes 'highly hazardous corrosive material' when the sulfuric acid goes from the drain-opener bottle to the reagent bottle.

Home labs can be safer than industrial or academic due to the fact that one person is responsible for everything from the actual chemistry, to the storage and safe disposal procedures, and the fact that the chemist's family may share the house with the lab, so the chemist has a moral obligation to the safe operation of said lab. In industial labs everything is micromanaged and the right hand does not know what the left is doing, I have seen this myself where a leaky(arsenic containing) reagent bottle in chemical stores was unmoved for years because the store operator 'was not the disposal guy' and as such accidents or hazards can always be blamed on someone else. In the home lab the chemist knows his and his family's safety depends on his actions, so he is much more careful.

Bethany, I think you are as confused as many home chemists are, I don't think the laws are clear to anyone. Most home chemists just do what they love as safely as possible, and not break any laws intentionally.

Goodyear vulcanized rubber on his stove
Hall invented electrolytic aluminum production in his backyard
Perkin discovered mauvine dye at home
Not things that could happen today if increasing regulation restricts chemicals and lab equipment to academia and industry.

Increasing regulations are hurting science education in general. Where once kids would be taught at school with flashy demonstrations and their chemistry sets would contain more than using glue and borax to make slime(and of course like the one I saw the other day, declaring in bold letters "no hazardous chemicals, no glass parts, no open flames"...), They now mix baking soda and vinegar or prepare dozens of white precipitates and expect that to spark a future generation of chemists. If one expects their country to be competitive in chemistry and science, you need to spark the minds of kids to think science has something to offer, and that is not going to happen if regulations take the fun out of science.

[Edited on 13-10-08 by The_Davster]

Jor - 13-10-2008 at 20:51

No, I mean that people soring gallons of fuel should have a fine as well, and then I'm really talking about 10+ gallons. I think no normal person needs that much, and no home experimenter uses that much solvent.

Nicodem - 15-10-2008 at 00:18

These regulations are not meant to be for fire safety and such. They are meant for preventing people from "playing" with chemicals at home and as such the pertaining regulations need not to be rational. In other words, someone having a propane bomb or other such hazardous household chemical is not the target of such a regulation and thus does not need to have a licence. If however you buy toluene from the hardware shop and transfer it in a reagent bottle, then it is like admitting you want to use it as solvent for your chemistry hobby - in which case you need a licence to store that bottle or else you break the regulation about chemicals storage. Given the situation, I don't think a safety cabinet for flammable solvents would make much of a difference, but at least you would have the argument of safety in your defence. Unfortunately this is considered a rational argument and thus again out of the scope of such regulations. That is what I meant when I said that it is an impossible situation. But then again regulations might vary widely from country to country. I advise you to read the one pertaining to yours. It should be available in PDF from the net at your local government agency for chemicals.

ProChem - 20-10-2008 at 05:12

Bethany,
When I was a teenager I had a garage lab that grew from a chemistry set given to me when I was nine years old (1965). Today I am a research chemist and member of the ACS who does some work at home in my garage. Since I am a professional I know the rules and regulations pertaining to chemical and lab safety. So I use these rules in my home lab. The local codes in my town do not address personal hobbies unless it becomes a business such as arts and crafts, auto mechanics etc. I own my home so i don't have lease issues to deal with. However that does not mean I don't fear my local or state government from siezing my notebooks, samples or equipment. Simply stated the public is ignorant to what chemistry is. For a long time chemistry has been looked upon with a negative connotation. Especially today when home labs are automatically thought of as bomb or meth labs. And the media reinforces these beliefs. This is a situation where you are guilty before you are found innocent.

Chemistry is now a pollitically incorrect science since it produces "dangerous waste" that no one wants transported through their neighborhood. High schools don't teach chemistry the way it used to be due to the possible litigation the school may face in the event of an accident. Even though a student has a higher chance of an injury in gym or wood shop. Governments today take away our personal responsibility by thinking for us. We all suffer from the actions of irresponsible home chemists and criminals instead of governments focusing on the bad apples.

The ACS has lobbyists that can help the government and media understand the importance of the amateur experimenter and where these people do their work. After all the inventor of liquid paper was, if I recall, a Texas stay at home mom. Also there needs to be more effort placed on improving the quality of chemical education in schools. Fear of chemistry needs to be repaced with respect for chemistry as it was when I was in high school.

evil_lurker - 20-10-2008 at 10:00

All the rules, regulations, and other assorted governmental red tape is nothing but a bunch of unecessary expensive bullshit in my opinion.

I say run your lab like a good meth cook and be done with it. Most meth labs get busted because of odors, fires, explosions, and narcs. That means keep your lab out of sight from everyone, mind your odors, dispose of wastes properly, and try and maintain good chemical hygiene. Try and keep the bulk of your reagents and glassware stored off site in case of raids so there will be less for the governement to seize. And most importantly, try and exercise some good common sense.

Other than that have fun.

[Edited on 20-10-2008 by evil_lurker]

starman - 20-10-2008 at 16:31

Quote:

After all the inventor of liquid paper was, if I recall, a Texas stay at home mom.

I believe that was Mike Nesmith (of 60's group The Monkees fame) mom.

@Prochem good to hear from a working scientist on this.

Recently in Australia a TV science program called Catalyst sponsored prizes in recognition of oustanding contributions of amatuers to science.
Featured were an amateur astronomer(working on a globally coordinated scheme with NASA) and a hobby paleontologist
who stumbled across a new species.
As I was wathcing this this I thought "well one thing for sure we ain't going to see any chemistry"
Amatuer chemists can make many genuine contributions paticularly in areas like natural products chemistry and preparative column chromatography.Where a professional looks at GCMS NMR etc and knows exactly what components in what percentage are in a sample,there still remain the tedium of exactly determinig optimum elutents and adsorbents etc for an effective separation.What a proffessional finds tedious an amatuer might find fascinating(I do).
By all means target the meth & bomb people.But I find it difficult to comprehend the rationale that make possession of a flask illegal (it is an empty glass bottle for goodness sake) while still permitting OTC sales of pseudoepherdine and friends.

watson.fawkes - 20-10-2008 at 17:25

Quote:

Originally posted by starman
I believe that was Mike Nesmith (of 60's group The Monkees fame) mom.

Yep. Here's the Snopes item.

chemoleo - 20-10-2008 at 17:46

I think Bethany needs to be sent a reminder that she should keep checking back on this thread- she hasn't since she created it. Otherwise all subsequent discussion since is pretty irrelevant other than venting your feelings.

Rosco Bodine - 20-10-2008 at 18:03

She has definitely been logged on and reading something here since she posted the topic because I have noticed her online status at times, but it has been a few days.

chochu3 - 20-10-2008 at 23:02

Oder out of state, every state has different laws on glassware and chemicals. Buy OTC chemicals and purify and label them in LD polyethelyne containers. Have knowledge what you can throw down the sink and everything else put into bottle and label as wastes with specifics and drop off at the fire department.

BethanyHalford - 21-10-2008 at 05:35

chemoleo and Rosco Bodine,

I'm still here, checking in frequently although I'm not always logged in.

I appreciate all the feedback I've gotten so far.

I'd be curious to know if anyone approached their local authorities to find out what the laws are where they live.

I've been making a lot of calls to federal, state, and local authorities, and I have to say that in the few cases where there are laws (usually on a local level), they're pretty vague.

pantone159 - 21-10-2008 at 07:23

Quote:

Originally posted by BethanyHalford
I've been making a lot of calls to federal, state, and local authorities, and I have to say that in the few cases where there are laws (usually on a local level), they're pretty vague.

The Texas law is a case of being both specific and vague at the same time. Chapter 481 of the Health & Safety Code
http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/hs.toc.htm
has an itemized listing of apparatus for which a permit is needed, it has such well defined terms such as:
(53)(K) a transformer;
(53)(N) an adaptor tube.

watson.fawkes - 21-10-2008 at 08:30

Quote:

Vagueness frequently means "unconstitutional". This was the case with the first California "assault weapons" ban, which was overturned just on these grounds.

Quote:

Originally posted by pantone159
The Texas law is a case of being both specific and vague at the same time. Chapter 481 of the Health & Safety Code
http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/hs.toc.htm
has an itemized listing of apparatus for which a permit is needed, it has such well defined terms such as:
(53)(K) a transformer;
(53)(N) an adaptor tube.

Thanks for that reference. I went and read up the relevant sections relating to "chemical laboratory apparatus". The vagueness starts right in the definition:

Quote:

from CHAPTER 481. TEXAS CONTROLLED SUBSTANCES ACT
(53) "Chemical laboratory apparatus" means any item of equipment designed, made, or adapted to manufacture a controlled substance or a controlled substance analogue, including:

So the definition of "what's controlled" contains within it a concept of purpose. The definition of apparatus includes only items for manufacturing controlled substances. This would encompass, clearly, the work of a cook who did his own glassblowing. It would also include the glassware that a cook bought and then set up for a synthesis of a controlled substance. But the definition itself doesn't include, not within the text itself, glassware bought for other purposes. This is a definition similar that for other context-dependent items, such as lockpicks and drug paraphernalia. But the regulation that follows that definition has no sensitivity to context. There's merely a presumption that all such items have that purpose and thus need control.

From a justice standpoint, this is intolerable. It's impossible to have justice under a law that asserts a potentially illicit purpose by mere possession of an item with multiple uses. This is worse than thoughtcrime. It's the assertion that you have already committed thoughtcrime simply by possessing something, whether or not you had thoughts even related to prohibited actions.

This vagueness is the center of a potential legal challenge. If the ACS had the political courage to defend the entire praxis pipeline of both its current members and its future members, it would sue to overturn this law. Getting standing is easy. Have a Texas resident pay for a flask from out of state. Find a seller who will hold the item in question until the case is resolved. Sue the state of Texas for declaratory relief, asking the court to throw out the apparatus provisions because of the vagueness of the definition.

But I have no expectation that the requisite political courage is present.

Jdurg - 6-11-2008 at 17:53

I don't think a lot of people here have contacted their local or state authorities about the laws regarding chemistry labs due to the publicity it would bring to them. Home chemists have become an underground group of people in fear that the hobby they love so much will be ripped right out of their hands.

These analogies may be somewhat harsh, but I think they are true. A home chemist calling his/her local and/or state authorities about the legality of a chemistry lab is akin to:

A runaway slave asking a local white-man where the nearest underground railroad gathering is.
A Jewish individual in WWII Germany calling up the Nazi's and asking if it's illegal to hide in his attic.

The level of severity may not be the same, but the atrocity behind it is.

chloric1 - 6-11-2008 at 19:03

Yes well, that being said, the vaugueness to me implies that I do not need to concern myself with said laws since I have no intentions in illegal activities. Of coarse that arguement will never hold in court. It might keep me out of jail but I doubt I will get my confiscated goods or reparations for damages.

So, I have come up with some ground rules to keep encounters with law enforcement unlikely.

1. Always keep chemicals and glassware out of plain site and preferrable in a locked cabinet, shed, or closet.

2. Reactions involving large amounts of chemicals, filtering, should be done indoors in privacy or outdoors at odd hours if noxious vapors are an issue.

3. Be very cautious about who you discuss you activites with ,and if you do divulge in discussion, make sure its someone that does not know your exact address.

4. This relates to rule 1 but if you are expecting a meter reader, a UPS delivery, or other visitors be sure to not leave out suspicous reagents or apparatus.

Magpie - 6-11-2008 at 20:13

Although a given home lab may be perfectly legal according to the letter of the law, I don't think that contacting the authorities with questions about it is adviseable.

The public, the media, and the police are highly prejudiced concerning personal chemistry and home labs. This, as we all know, is the result of terrorism and illegal drug making on a worldwide scale over the past few decades. This allows and even encourages the police to act like bullies when it comes to home labs. It doesn't matter that they are likely breaking the law and trampling on the lab owner's rights. They have public opinion on their side.

Unfortunately the home chemist of today can very much identify with a negro living in the South in the 60's or a jew living in Nazi Germany.

[Edited on 6-11-2008 by Magpie]

BromicAcid - 7-11-2008 at 14:54

Did anyone else here give Bethany Halford a call?

For those interested, the deadline for the article has passed and the article has been submitted for publication, she will be posting here again with the hyperlink once the article has been published.

Polverone - 7-11-2008 at 15:12

I talked to her. It should be out on the 10th, she said.

The_Davster - 8-11-2008 at 08:48

I have access to print copies of C&EN news, I will be watching for the article.

BethanyHalford - 10-11-2008 at 06:25

Thanks to everyone who offered guidance for my article. You can read it online here (it's available to the public, not just ACS members).

Rosco Bodine - 10-11-2008 at 09:06

Dr. Beth,

Visit any time this collection of old druid alchemists and young apprentices, we will keep the drawbridge down for you. The missing component for the new health and energy plans is powdered extract of gryphon claw, so
we shall all have job security for at least the next four years to be engaged in its cooperative pursuit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkYB9rOiinc

Magpie - 10-11-2008 at 10:58

Ms Halford,

Thank you for that excellent article on the dilemma of the home chemist. C&EN's popularity among chemists and chemical engineers will assure that it receives a wide reading, at least among professionals. Please report back to the forum occaisionally when you have some feedback from your readers.

woelen - 10-11-2008 at 13:01

I also was pleased very much to read this article. Another Dutch member already has posted a link to this article on a Dutch chemistry forum (not a forum like sciencemadness, but aimed at people who work in chemistry, e.g. in corporate research labs or at universities), so the audience again is extended a little.

undead_alchemist - 11-11-2008 at 08:11

A link to the story has now made it to Slashdot.org

pantone159 - 11-11-2008 at 08:30

Quote:

Originally posted by undead_alchemist
A link to the story has now made it to Slashdot.org

Which means that a link to SM is indirectly on Slashdot. Countdown to the SM server being swamped... 10.. 9.. 8..

sparkgap - 11-11-2008 at 17:12

Quote:

Originally posted by undead_alchemist
A link to the story has now made it to Slashdot.org

I did that.

Good thing Slashdot picked that up. Hope our cause becomes more popular.

sparky (~_~)

IrC - 11-11-2008 at 20:23

Her article was very good and as far as I can tell the first one with mainstream credentials which seemed sympathetic at least to our hobby. Too little to late I fear. We have no organized lobby with enough cash to represent us and defend our rights. I would bet good money that right now each and every one of us would end up a tier 3 hazmat story in at least local news if they knew about less than one percent of the things we all need to do our experiments with.

I believe this is already true even though virtually all household chemicals are more of a chemical hazard than nearly all of our lab gear and stock. It is a hyper-hysterical mindset the governments and peoples of every country today possess and I see no hope of this doing anything but getting worse with time. In short the war is over and we lost, best we can do is what we all already do and this is keep our heads down and our mouths shut.

I exclude Thailand from this after reading a previous post. Who knew the last bastion of freedom would show up in the Asian world. Sure would be nice if our governments were as science friendly as Thailand. I buy many items from there and often (in fact one less than a week ago) I get packages sealed in green homeland security tape. I would love to get my hands on their mail and riffle through it just to let them know how irritating it is to have my privacy violated every other time an order from Futurelec (and several ebay sellers) arrives.

Sadly it means we all need to stockpile the hell out of everything we can while (if) we still can. Much more sadly is the fact that this agenda on the part of our so called "free" countries forces us to have more on hand of various items which beforehand we would have deemed unsafe to keep in large amounts! Meaning the main thing they have done with their knee-jerk hysteria is to make us all much less safe than we were, when we were allowed to police ourselves using common sense and safety concerns as we have all done since the late 1800's when home science really kicked into gear.

I started around age 5 in science and that was 50 years ago. In all these years I remember only two stories which stand out of a home scientist causing harm or concern to the public. One was the infamous home built reactor story which likely represented a tenth of the threat we were told it was by the government and the media. The other was a NY trash collection person being killed by fumes from a broken bottle of HF in the 70 percent range. For 50 years of home science these two cannot possibly be enough incidents to justify the hysterical crucify chemists mindset we see every day from the government and the media.

I know some of the things in my lab would cause problems since combined they represent some kind of evil in the minds of LEO. Yet these are offset by a hundred other things in my lab. When they decide NaOH and some kind of transformer or glassware proves their case my question would be "yeah then what drug relation does my Uranium and heavy water have?". No doubt in court they would convince everyone I am making some kind of designer glow in the dark drug, which they would then twist into some kind of "he is also a terrorist making dirty bombs in between drug batches" bull story.

Leaving open the question in my mind as to why they do not add delimiters in their draconian laws such as $50 worth of list inorganics combined with 20 thousand worth of non drug related chemicals indicates a non drug lab. Of course this brings us back to the tier 3 scenario if we have rubber samples or other benign items as the man in her article did. I imagine the only way to win is to not play the game meaning secrecy is our only defense and this is not ever going to change.

[Edited on 11-12-2008 by IrC]

Rosco Bodine - 12-11-2008 at 01:22

hmmmm, hmmmm, hmmmm, hmmmmm, hmmmm :cool:

It's all such a tired cliche you know, an angry mob of villagers with torches coming up the road to Frankenstein's castle and all

I have simply got to get me a Jacob's ladder ...it will
go nicely with my plasma globe

Am I the only one who likes to flare an LP jetted meker burner just for the kick of it, to set the mood for an experiment. Mantles are nice, but some of the old burners are really a much more serious heat source for those high thermal demand reactions

kclo4 - 12-11-2008 at 15:42

Noticed while I was on this http://www.jimmyr.com/ site looking at science articles, it has made it on the front page of Reddits science - Which automatically means it is on the front page of a lot of sites such as Jimmyr.com

Be Interesting to see the statistics on how many people were viewing SMDB and how many people are now because of the link in the page.

Polverone - 12-11-2008 at 17:42

I have not noticed any traffic spikes, though log analysis is running a couple of days behind. Fortunately for SM's web server, if not for its attractiveness to new members, most slashdot/reddit readers appear to skim articles or just read the first paragraph rather than reading them all the way through.

MagicJigPipe - 25-11-2008 at 21:40

Quote:

No, I mean that people soring gallons of fuel should have a fine as well, and then I'm really talking about 10+ gallons. I think no normal person needs that much, and no home experimenter uses that much solvent.

!!?

Do you have a car? I think my car has more than 10 gallons of fuel in it right now. Is that somehow different? Or is it just because cars are socially acceptable?

I also know for a fact that at least a few people here have more than 10 gallons of solvents. Shit, people with hobbies other than chemistry occasionally have over 10 gallons of flammable solvents. I know my parents have about that much just from unused/partially used cans of bullshit in their garage.

What about people with propane tanks? And are you saying that people with RVs, boats, ATVs etc... shouldn't be allowed to store more than 10 gallons of fuel? This is absolutely ridiculous. My father is a firefighter and even he wouldn't agree to that draconian fine/regulation that you are advocating.

10 gallons? I am absolutely appalled at your statement. One day you may need to stock 10 gallons of something just to ensure that you can continue your hobby for a few more years. Would you limit yourself?

I might actually agree to require some sort of anti-fire measure for people who have more than say, 30 gallons of flammable liquids but I would never agree with your statement.

Unbelievable.

Bikemaster - 9-4-2009 at 08:56

sorry to make reborn an old thread

but why does the gouvernement don't give us rules?
it is not a big problem to follow some rules like for safety or for environement protection. we only want to follow our passion and we don't want to make any trouble.

hissingnoise - 9-4-2009 at 09:56

Quote: Originally posted by Bikemaster

but why does the gouvernement don't give us rules?

They have given us rules---those rules are No Explosives and No Drugs. . .

Globey - 9-4-2009 at 10:18

Bethany,

Aside from regulations (safety issues), the problem is that the agency who have taken it upon themselves to enforce, does so largely through a very interpretive and somewhat arbitrary arm of the law, known as administrative law. "This should be this, therefore we'll write up a plan of action." "We don't agree to be sued, so we'll just not agree to being sued" (circular logic). "We f**ked up, so we'll just write a corrective action." They write the law as they go on, and it's it's own culture and almost personality cult.

**edited to correct couple type'o's, & to add; one of the only effective legal challenges to this admin. law involves questions of federal constitutionality (which are comparatively rare). Even when people in states say it is legal, the admin. fed law likes to trump the statue. Administration of federal law here certainly is not in the spirit of what it was intended to be.

[Edited on 9-4-2009 by Globey]

Bikemaster - 9-4-2009 at 15:55

... i know that explosive and drug are illegal but if you have a home lab (don't care about the reason) they will arrest you... i don't want to make meth and big bacth of acetone peroxide, i just want to do my hobby...

poeple don't like us because they just don't know wath is really chemistry...in their head pyrothecnie=terroriste and chemistry=drug...

Jacked_is_out - 30-5-2009 at 15:45

I remember a few years back, a legal company, operated out of a home, distilling essential oils, was raided and destroyed by the feds. They (the owners) were not prosecuted but did have to retain counsel and wound up suing the government for the loss of the equipment.. They lost that to.. Bottom line, The feds do what the want. It would be advantageous to set up a lab in an area zoned commercial and legitimize yourself….
You could test swimming pool water or drinking water. Something simple, under the radar.

entropy51 - 30-5-2009 at 16:16

Anyone who thinks the presence of chemicals and lab equipment will not be incriminating if found during a visit by law enforcement might want to check out http://www.tba2.org/tba_files/TCCA/2007/gibsonr_042707.pdf

Although this guy was obviously not an amateur chemist, there seems to be weak evidence of controlled substance manufacture and the court seems to have have placed inordinate reliance on the testimony of officers who couldn't have distinguished between hobby chemisty and drug manufacture. Also note that evidence was "disposed of" by a hazmat company because it was a "biohazard".

Sauron - 30-5-2009 at 16:37

The DEA does not care about zoning, that is a municipal issue.

Nor is a commercial facade a guaramtee of invisibility.

When it comes to a drug lab, the best way to set it up is never safe enough and in the end you will probably be ratted out by one of your own.

The feds have got all the local yokels spying for them, and the civil forfeiture laws provide the motivation as the DEA splits the loot down the middle with the locals.

The fire depts and meter readers are now in on the act.

The lab suppliers and chem suppliers are forced to do likewise by the Comprehensive Meth. Control Act etc.

Don't pay for an aorline ticket with cash or you will be chatted up by a couple of narcs who have the power to pick your pockets, literally, and there is not a thing you can do about it.

Land of the free, home of the brave.

I used my freedom and LEFT IT.

Jacked_is_out - 30-5-2009 at 18:06

Legal issues and home labs... I was thinking Legal Labs, Not drug labs.... You damn sure don't shit where you eat... There is no legal home lab and the issue will eventually be a Time issue. How much you get.... The lab I posted about was legit and it still cost them... Legal fees alone for a fed case will start in the $60,000 range.. That’s if you plan on fighting the case in court... You could best use that money setting up a lab some place besides home. Legal or not...
Sauron, your right about the DEA not giving a damn about zoning..
As far as being ratted out, You cant tell what you don't know... Keep private shit private as you well know..

Sauron - 30-5-2009 at 21:35

I was referring to any sort of lab.

Those folks got really shitty legal advice is they spent $60K on an unwinnable suit.

I bet their lost equipment was a lot less than that.

When I chose to expatriate myself 20 years ago it was not over this issue. But is COULD have been.

Jacked_is_out - 31-5-2009 at 02:20

Any legal advice dealing with the FED's is shitty.

You made a good move 20 years ago.

Hydragyrum - 31-5-2009 at 03:56

Quote: Originally posted by Sauron

Land of the free, home of the brave.

I used my freedom and LEFT IT.

Quote: Originally posted by Sauron

When I chose to expatriate myself 20 years ago it was not over this issue. But is COULD have been.

Quote: Originally posted by Jacked_is_out

Any legal advice dealing with the FED's is shitty.

You made a good move 20 years ago.

So... what is currently* a good country to be in when you have these kind of interests?

* Naturally, I won't hold you responsible if I move there and then it changes for the worse!

The_Davster - 31-5-2009 at 08:58

Quote: Originally posted by Hydragyrum

So... what is currently* a good country to be in when you have these kind of interests?

* Naturally, I won't hold you responsible if I move there and then it changes for the worse!

https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=43...

Sauron - 31-5-2009 at 21:24

Where I live is a very comfortable place to have a small business and a lab, but drug cooks are dealt with very harshly.

Local nationals who traffic in or manufacture drugs get anything from very long prison terms to extrajudicial, summary execution.

Still, I have been legally buying chemicals and apparatus for a decade and I have never been hassled or harassed. It sounds like that is a lot better off than I might be in the good old US of A.

kclo4 - 12-10-2009 at 14:42

This just recently happened:
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=8246393

How idiotic.

psychokinetic - 12-10-2009 at 19:00

They say the public shouldn't be worried, that the chemicals are not going to harm them.....but they don't know what's in them.

o.o'

kclo4 - 12-10-2009 at 20:33

Also they said some of the chemicals react with air, water, and god forbid other chemicals!

psychokinetic - 13-10-2009 at 16:59

Sounds like it's a bunch of metal tools, they react with air and water quite obviously. And not just the tools doing the reporting, either.

Chainhit222 - 20-5-2010 at 21:08

Funny thing, I am a volunteer firefighter and I am into this hobby.

Randle Patrick - 31-5-2010 at 07:05

I particularly enjoyed the following rant: <blockquote>
As far as I know, home chemists are wary of the legislation, as they widely believe it is written mainly by scientifically challenged safety-obsessed apes, who know little to nothing about the legitimate uses of chemicals but nevertheless set out to destroy any kind of individual experimentation with the self-righteous rage of publicly appointed gorillas, without regard to the actual dangers involved and the possible consequences for the economy and the future of research, for fear of a vague, often imaginary threat against the 'normals', those herd-following sheeple who see evil in everything that is not institutional or corporate or sanctioned by the mainstram media.</blockquote>Our local nanny club, the Homeowners Association <strike>Soviet</strike>, banned propane weed-burning torches as an extreme danger to society, etc.  Although RoundUp® is fairly harmless stuff - glyphos inhibits the biosynthesis of phenylalanine, something that animals cannot do biochemically anyways - propane is entirely environmentally friendly, no chemicals there.  Just blazing hot CO2 and H2O gas. But several thousand feet overhead, recreational hot-air balloons fly about, with the same apparatus but five times bigger, and with 5 km. worth of potential energy on those tanks, besides.  Curse you, Red Baron!
The problem seems to be - what smart people do is very scary, and people should only do smart things with permission.

SWilkin676 - 3-6-2010 at 15:49

You know the locals cops for the most part have got better things to do with their time than harrass people who have unusual hobbies. Don't cause any problems for your neighbors and don't cause any fires etc and you are probably fine.

There are WAYYY too many laws on the books for anyone to be unable to not run afoul of them. I guarantee you every one in this entire state has committed something that is against one of the endless number of laws on the books.

For example it is illegal to be nude at someone else's house!

Suzee

mewrox99 - 8-6-2010 at 23:26

I had issue with some ignoramuses, I mean cops.

I was playing around with some KNO3/Mg and it produced a fair quantity of smoke. My neighbor was out, she usually gets annoyed by pyro stuff but this time she just gave an evil glare and walked off.

A few minutes later, I see a firetruck and police coming. They went into my garage and found a bottle of garden center copper sulfate that had a reagent like chemical label. They look displeased "This is an illegal dangerous good. It can only be sold to OSH approved businesses under the HAZNO act . You need a permit to possess this" I respond O RLY?

They get angrier when they find my 200g or so of KNO3 "Illegal explosive possession" the cop notes. Funny how OTC stump remover is illegal.

I ended up with a written warning from my police and to this day some of my more dim friends refer to my hobby as "terrorism"

[Edited on 9-6-2010 by mewrox99]

JohnWW - 9-6-2010 at 02:06

Gosh, I did not think that the Pigs here in New Zealand would be that Fascist, although of course they are very corrupt and Rambo-like.

[Edited on 9-6-10 by JohnWW]

quicksilver - 9-6-2010 at 06:58

Quote: Originally posted by mewrox99

A few minutes later, I see a firetruck and police coming. They went into my garage and found a bottle of garden center copper sulfate that had a reagent like chemical label. They look displeased "This is an illegal dangerous good. It can only be sold to OSH approved businesses under the HAZNO act . You need a permit to possess this" I respond O RLY?

They get angrier when they find my 200g or so of KNO3 "Illegal explosive possession" the cop notes. Funny how OTC stump remover is illegal.

I ended up with a written warning from my police and to this day some of my more dim friends refer to my hobby as "terrorism"

[Edited on 9-6-2010 by mewrox99]

My Heaven's man; you need to be careful. You are surrounded by idiots. The best thing that I might suggest is that if your "friends" use such descriptors.....is to fully convince them that you've seen the light and now devote your time to other pursuits.

When the Authorities are called, they will automatically look askance at activities that they may ordinarily think little of..... The reason is that they have to justify their call-out. If your neighbor is doing that - it's only a step away from her actually lying and you getting in serious trouble.
Your "friends" who use such a term as "terrorism" may not realize that they actually put you in harm's way with that type of thing.
Be careful: you've got a real challenge there.

hissingnoise - 9-6-2010 at 07:36

It's reaching a point where chemistry is synonymous with terrorism!
And we're terror hobbyists. . .

psychokinetic - 9-6-2010 at 18:48

Understandably, your friends no matter how understanding and humourous, their terminology is enough to get you to gitmo.

mewrox99 - 10-6-2010 at 21:51

Quote: Originally posted by psychokinetic

terminology is enough to get you to gitmo.

lol that's like there dream.

It's starting to piss me off, how daily I'm called terrorist. As a 'joke' they plan on writing a letter to the the community constable that took my chems about how I got a shipment of glassware and some strong acids.

Quote:

Constable ****, I feel it is my duty as a concerned citizen to inform you about a potential danger to your community. There is a young boy, Named ***** **** living in your area who is experementing with explosives, acids and high powerd lasers. this has gotten to a point hwre neigbours have complained about smoke and the fire dept has confiscated material. I have it on good authority that he has received a package containing over 5L of sulfuric acid and i ask you to do what you can to stop this menace. Sincerly, Anonymous

Note the poor spelling and grammar

They haven't sent it yet, but they use it as a 'threat'

[Edited on 11-6-2010 by mewrox99]

kclo4 - 10-6-2010 at 23:27

perhaps don't advertise it so much? and talk to them about it -- its just a hobby, etc be as nice as possible, apologize for the misunderstanding or anything else, etc...

mewrox99 - 10-6-2010 at 23:49

yer with them it's not really a misunderstanding, there just being dicks.

Best is not to mention the hobby and anything related to it.

psychokinetic - 11-6-2010 at 22:46

Bromine makes really nice brown stains on white underpants. Keep that in mind.

mewrox99 - 11-6-2010 at 22:52

LOL.

Yeah, cheap tincture of iodine also does a good job.

quicksilver - 12-6-2010 at 05:50

Quote: Originally posted by mewrox99

Quote: Originally posted by psychokinetic

terminology is enough to get you to gitmo.

I don't want to sound alarmist but that does sound like a really serious issue.
If I were you I would do everything I could to convince them that I no longer practice that hobby, that I had gotten rid of all materials that could be used to implicate me, etc, etc.
They MAY play a "joke" on you thinking that nothing will come of it other than a laugh.

Nothing could be further than the truth. Those little shits could ruin your life. The emotional thrust of "terrorism" is not much different than "child molester" - in that the perpetrator is one who harms the innocent & is guilty by implication just like a "witch hunt" of old.

These people are NOT friends. You do NOT need them in your life. Anyone who would subject someone to the threat of ruin is not a friend. The BEST thing to do is to get them OUT of your life entirely.

Our hobby is well misunderstood. It also has the potential to be frightening to those who don't understand it. Be VERY careful who you talk to about energetic materials & ALWAYS underline your mature and safety-oriented agenda when studying them (should someone ask). NEVER volunteer that you find them interesting. It's as easy to brand you a dysfunctional individual as someone who owns more than one firearm or collects knives.

mewrox99 - 12-6-2010 at 06:22

The funny thing is, I haven't even made any explosives. Seriously KClO4/Al is hardly a high explosive.

densest - 12-6-2010 at 10:44

KClO4/Al is an interesting case. The larger the pile, the higher the combustion velocity. Once the pile is big enough, the combustion front progresses close to the speed of sound in the pile. It shatters things more like a high explosive than a low explosive if the quantity is large enough. The PGA (Pyrotechnic club in the US) puts a pound of it without confinement in a little building they construct for the demo. It's shattered - the wood framing rains down in little chunks.

The particle size and shape make a big difference in the combustion rate. "300 mesh" and below aluminum flakes are very potent.

50 milligrams makes a US firecracker. 300 mg is quite a bang. Y'know the big bangs in display fireworks - the ones that hit you in the chest from 500m away? That's 100g or so of flash powder in a flimsy paper tube.

Be really, really careful with it. It's sensitive to pressure, impact, rubbing, static electricity, heat, you name it.

If you hear about a fireworks factory exploding in a 3rd world country, it's almost always a barrel of flash going off in the firecracker making room. In the US, no fireworks factory can make more than 4.5Kg at a time.

In small quantities, treated with great respect, it's fun.

The US law considers it in between low explosives like gunpowder and high explosives like TNT or NH4NO3/fuel.

[Edited on 12-6-2010 by densest]