Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Bad Chemistry on TV

NeutralIon - 12-5-2009 at 13:09

Its really amazing what they can do with chemicals on TV!

The episode of CSI:Miami last night had the deceased victim floating in a swimming pool full of NaOH. The concentration was strong enough to eat through glass.

When the CSI guys realized it was an alkali they knew they needed to neutralize it in order to retrieve the body. So they send one of the team to the local grocery store for vinegar. They proceed to pour the vinegar from gallon jugs into the pool dropping the pH from almost 13 [just after they started adding the vinegar] to exactly 7.0 -- all within a few seconds, and without any stirring.

Now, I'm no expert on chemistry but I do know that vinegar is, at best, 5% acetic acid and acetic acid is a weak acid so even with equal molar amounts of NaOH and CH3COOH you would not get down to 7.0. To get that low you would need a large excess of vinegar -- somewhere around 20 times the volume of water in the pool!!! Yet they poured this all in from gallon jugs in under a minute and the pool did not overflow.

Somebody in the Miami area please check your local grocery stores and find out what brand of vinegar they are selling.
:D

Saerynide - 12-5-2009 at 16:32

I was thinking more like the body should have turned into soap by the time the cops got there :D

BromicAcid - 12-5-2009 at 17:39

Remember that pH is a logarithmic scale. A 0.5% solution can have a pH of 13-14. That's only 5 g NaOH/ Kg of water (w/w). Point being that it doesn’t take much sodium hydroxide to change the pH quite a bit.

Assuming average pool size of 20 x 40 ft and 5.5 ft deep, volume is 33000 gallons, is equivalent to 124918 L so assuming 1.0 Kg/L density that gives 124918 Kg of solution which contains 624 Kg NaOH. Converting to mols, 1561 mols NaOH. Molarity of store bought vinegar ca. 0.8 M so doing the math and just trying to neutralize the sodium hydroxide and ignoring the buffer effect of the acetate anion...

1951 L of vinegar will do it. Or, 515 of those 1 gallon containers. In the scheme of things, that's only 1.5% the existing volume in the pool. So, I wouldn't say overflowing but it would take some time to add for sure. And I think they would have to visit quite a few stores to get that much vinegar. Considering the dilution of it though I wouldn't worry too much about mixing, by the time it was all added from 1 gallon containers with the circulation pumps in a pool it should all be pretty good. By the way, the bleach we use in the kitchen has a similar pH and I've know lots of people who will clean whole kitchens using straight bleach with a sponge and no gloves. How badly was the glass eaten?

I've seen plenty of bad chemistry on TV, I would consider this an exaggeration, like in cooking shows when they cut to the finished product but not anything egregious.


[Edited on 5/13/2009 by BromicAcid]

NeutralIon - 14-5-2009 at 10:34

Bromic --

I think you are right -- I somewhat overestimated the amount of vinegar needed.

But your analysis may be a bit low. Adding 1561 moles of acetic acid in the form of 1951 L of vinegar only drops the pH down to the equivalence point which for the chemicals involved is about 9.2. On the show they did show the pH going to 7.0 so some additional acid would be needed to get there.

Either way -- a lot more vinegar than they showed.


kclo4 - 14-5-2009 at 14:59

Another example is the anti-smoking commercials. They have the symbol for lead as PB, not Pb. They also suggest that it is found in high enough concentrations in cigarettes to worry about, which seems stupid since I would bet tomatoes would have similiar concentrations.

indigofuzzy - 14-5-2009 at 20:51

Similarly, the anti-cigarette ads talking about Sodium Hydroxide in cigarettes. Hmm, those of us who bother to read labels know it's in eye drops too. :P

497 - 23-5-2009 at 17:32

Hah that reminds me of the anti-meth posters that are trying to tell you that the various reagents and solvents used to manufacture it are actually in the final product. '"Oh my god there's lye and paint stripper in my meth!" It's hilarious.

Its amazing how people have such a hard time understanding that all the various "ingredients" are simply used to manipulate a specific molecule, rather than being tossed together and magically making a mixture that happens to get you high..


Waffles - 28-5-2009 at 20:48

On the other hand, for basement-made meth (basically all of it), I would expect you get a slight to not-so-slight amount of impurities. Maybe not volatile-as-hell paint stripper, but certainly unpleasantness. Not that the unpleasantness could easily be worse than the meth itself, but ya know.

TheOrbit - 29-5-2009 at 09:51

that exceeding the buffering effect :)

everythingischemistry - 18-7-2009 at 00:56

The water supplies in the UK still extensively have lead pipes from the community mains to each home. We don't all fall over with lead poisoning. Most people don't even know their water comes through lead pipes. I've handled lead without gloves, etc many times (in the form of fishing weights) and not bothered to wash my hands afterwards before eating/drinking. Nothing bad happened. Of course I wouldn't want to EAT the lead or inhale it (in any sort of visible quantity, some idiots actually smoked cannabis with visible bits of lead in it according to news reports) but it's not AS dangerous as most people think.

Bleach isn't that dangerous on it's own either. You could have a swig from the bottle (assuming it's just sodium hypochlorite, which most "bleach" in the UK isn't) and while you will sure as hell wish you didn't (don't try this at home kids) it's unlikely to kill without having a fair bit. Personally I would wear gloves with this one but I don't bother to wash my hands after holding the bleach bottle or anything if I was just using it to sanitize something, despite the overblown warnings on the label.

People get so scared of the "chemicals" these days. It's a pity the powers that be are so paranoid of having an enlightened society they fuel this nonsense. They are doubly stupid as 1) There is a thing called the army which will always have bigger and badder stuff than everyone else so the government as a "team" has nothing to concern itself over and 2) If someone really, really, really wants to kill the president/prime minister/anyone else and isn't a complete idiot then they are going to. The IRA have almost killed our PM on a few occasions and the technology they used while not available in a store near you isn't very advanced either and not something you can stop people doing if they are really dead set on doing it.

Doesn't CSI get a lot of flack for doing things badly? I've read in other pieces of fiction before bemoaning the "CSI effect" where juries and others have unrealistic expectations of forensics because of CSI but I don't watch it myself and don't know how valid these criticisms are, anyone? Are CSI proponents of bad science often?

User - 18-7-2009 at 03:10

CSI just sucks and creates false ideas about the whole subject.
I have seen people on TV say that cigarettes contain carbon monoxide.
I mean what the fuck, it seems to be allowed to speak about things that one doesnt know shit about.
False ideas and throwing it on scare politics.

DJF90 - 18-7-2009 at 07:38

Cigarettes DO contain carbon monoxide! I'm pretty sure if you look at a cigarette packet you'll see some numbers for nicotine and carbon monoxide, per cigarrette. IIRC carbon monoxide is generally about 10mg, and nicotine about 2mg? But its been a long time since I've seen a cigarette packet as I dont smoke. I'm pretty sure this information is on most products, I know for sure that Lambert&Butler and also SilkCut divulge this information.

ammonium isocyanate - 18-7-2009 at 08:12

Are you sure that cigarettes actually CONTAIN carbon monoxide, or that it is just produced durning combustion. I can't really see even 10mg of CO trapped in the cigarrete itself.

chemrox - 18-7-2009 at 11:34

The almost routine filmsci presentation is glassware with colored liquid in weird places like the condenser coils or an anti-foaming device such as in Air America and there are much worse examples I just can't recall right now..anyway, it embarasses

hissingnoise - 18-7-2009 at 12:02

Quote: Originally posted by everythingischemistry  
Nothing bad happened. Of course I wouldn't want to EAT the lead or inhale it (in any sort of visible quantity, some idiots actually smoked cannabis with visible bits of lead in it according to news reports) but it's not AS dangerous as most people think.

If water in lead pipes falls below a certain pH some lead will dissolve and such water will have high toxicity---any underestimation of lead's toxicity is foolish as lead is an insidious cumulative poison. . .
The NaOH in commercial bleach is much more toxic than NaClO, but solutions of NaClO disproportionate so that these solutions normally contain NaCl + NaClO + NaClO3.
Chlorates were once used as an anti-bacterial in throat lozenges. . .

ammonium isocyanate - 18-7-2009 at 12:14

Quote: Originally posted by BromicAcid  

Assuming average pool size of 20 x 40 ft and 5.5 ft deep, volume is 33000 gallons, is equivalent to 124918 L so assuming 1.0 Kg/L density that gives 124918 Kg of solution which contains 624 Kg NaOH. Converting to mols, 1561 mols NaOH.
[Edited on 5/13/2009 by BromicAcid]


I just noticed this, and maybe I'm totally off here, but the molar mass of NaOH is ~40g, so 624kg would make about 15,610 mols NaOH.

Am I missing something?

chloric1 - 18-7-2009 at 14:00

Lead is more soluble in soft water than hard water. IRC England has some impressive limestone deposits so I would think the water pretty "hard" with calcium and magnesium bicarbonates. Correct me if I am wrong about England's mineralogy

We need to get the message out to the powers that be that this oppresive and restrictive society is actually more insecure and unsafe then when we had relative freedom in years past.

MagicJigPipe - 23-7-2009 at 15:17

I watched an episode of some CSI show and noticed that they claimed--wait, no, it was House (a doctor TV show)--that some guy had been killed by mixing ammonia and bleach and breathing in too much chlorine gas.

This seems to be a common mistake. Is there any chlorine gas released by such a mixture? I know it can't be much because I have tried it on a small scale (and noticed no color and little Cl2 smell; not that I was going out of my way to smell it).

Also less common (but worse) is that ammonia and bleach will produce "mustard gas".

Even worse is that gasoline and "moth balls" produces nitroglycerin.

Formatik - 23-7-2009 at 15:35

No Cl2 if there is an excess of ammonia which would react with it. I know interactions of aq. -ClO and NH4 salts is somewhat complex, those I know can release some Cl2.

In one of my old favorite shows called the Pretender, there was an episode where a stalker would take pictures of his stalking victims. Then he took the pictures and dripped an acid to dissolve some portion of the picture, it just ate right through the picture.
I don't think such a compound exists :P. Maybe HSbF6.

chloric1 - 23-7-2009 at 17:22

Quote: Originally posted by Formatik  
No Cl2 if there is an excess of ammonia which would react with it. I know interactions of aq. -ClO and NH4 salts is somewhat complex, those I know can release some Cl2.

In one of my old favorite shows called the Pretender, there was an episode where a stalker would take pictures of his stalking victims. Then he took the pictures and dripped an acid to dissolve some portion of the picture, it just ate right through the picture.
I don't think such a compound exists :P. Maybe HSbF6.


I used to take a Q-tip soaked in concentrated HCl and touch photos and poloroids I did not like. It only removed the image and noting more.

I also see too many programs using dry ice in brightly colored liquids to cause room temperature boiling and plumes of mysterious fog.

Elawr - 24-7-2009 at 21:10

I liked the one on "Breaking Bad" where, having recieved orders to dispose of a corpse, some idiot places the decedent in the upstairs bathtub and adds a large quantity of conc. HF. THe bathtub dissolves and the carcass soon falls through the floor into the downstairs hallway. It was unclear as to what effect the HF fumes had on the dimwitted perpetrater while splashing the acid all around in the enclosed bathroom space!

[Edited on 25-7-2009 by Elawr]

kclo4 - 25-7-2009 at 00:20

Also on breaking bad, I believe he had a large crystal of mercury fulminate.. sounds a bit impossible, they only recently discovered its crystal structure IIRC.

497 - 25-7-2009 at 01:42

Yeah that mercury fulminate feature was entertaining.. Convenient how it happened to look identical to the crystal meth...

I was just waiting for him to try crushing a crystal up with the butt of his knife like he did before... That wouldn't have been pretty.. :P

JohnWW - 25-7-2009 at 01:44

Quote: Originally posted by MagicJigPipe  
I watched an episode of some CSI show and noticed that they claimed--wait, no, it was House (a doctor TV show)--that some guy had been killed by mixing ammonia and bleach and breathing in too much chlorine gas. This seems to be a common mistake. Is there any chlorine gas released by such a mixture? I know it can't be much because I have tried it on a small scale (and noticed no color and little Cl2 smell; not that I was going out of my way to smell it). (cut)
Even worse is that gasoline and "moth balls" produces nitroglycerin.

Mixing ammonia and hypochlorite bleach would probably result in chloramines, NH2Cl and NHCl2; and, if an excess of bleach is used, nitrogen trichloride, NCl3, which is a dangerously unstable explosive (too dangerous to use commercially) as the French discoverer, Dulong, found out.
Gasoline is a mixture of low to medium weight hydrocarbons (unless alcohol has been added) with about 5 to 12 C atoms, with the branched-chain saturated aliphatic species obtained by catalytic cracking with addition of H2 to unsaturated species being most valued; while mothballs are either naphthalene, C10H8, or dichlorobenzenes (especially the para isomer), which smell similar. The mothballs would simply dissolve in the gasoline.

ammonium isocyanate - 25-7-2009 at 13:21

I saw that House episode and laughed. Normally I like House, but I have found a few errors lately. One of them was the chloramine one. Another I noticed that in one episode they did the standard tested for amyloidosis but skipped the addition of KMnO4, yet were still able to see that it was amaloid AA.

MagicJigPipe - 26-7-2009 at 09:43

Thanks for the info JohnWW, but... I know.

Or perhaps you were clarifying the issue for those that might believe those myths. If so, good.

Formatik - 26-7-2009 at 16:51

Quote: Originally posted by chloric1  
I also see too many programs using dry ice in brightly colored liquids to cause room temperature boiling and plumes of mysterious fog.


Indeed. Too artificial, not amusing and easily snuffed out by chemists. What would be something you would find amusing there?

more bad chemistry on the boob tube

Formatik - 30-8-2009 at 13:18

Here's another one. I saw a show called Manswers, it's kind of a sleazy show but if it wasn't for the cheap laughs and hot chicks I wouldn't have watched it. :D There was a segment that was along the lines of 'what all can you do with piss?' One of the things it claimed was that you can make gunpowder out of it all you pretty much have to do is pee in a cup.

'The pee contains potassium nitrate', they claimed. I thought, oh brother that's wrong. While you can go through urea from it and convert that to potassium nitrate (via chemically or biochemically, threads on it in this forum, UTFSE), there's no potassium nitrate in there. At least not naturally. McGyver is more educational in that area.

hissingnoise - 30-8-2009 at 14:20

I believe urine contains, among other things, small quantities of nitrite which are oxidised over a period during fermentation. . .
You could, if you were piss-poor obtain "usable" amounts of KNO3 from large volumes of urine---Hennig Brand might know!
(sniff!)

Formatik - 30-8-2009 at 16:28

If you have nitrite in your urine then it's a bad sign, because that's caused by a UTI. Nitrate appearance could come from something like meat. But to get nitrate from pee you can let nitrifying bacterias convert nitrogenous compounds to nitrate.

entropy51 - 30-8-2009 at 16:49

From that bastion of esoteric chemical knowledge, aka Wiki

Urine has also been used in the manufacture of saltpetre for gunpowder. In this process, stale urine placed in a container of straw hay is allowed to sour for many months, after which water is used to wash the resulting chemical salts from the straw. The process is completed by filtering the liquid through wood ashes and air-drying in the sun. Saltpetre crystals can then be collected and added to sulfur and charcoal to create black powder. Potassium nitrate could also be harvested from accumulations of bat guano in caves. This was the traditional method used in Laos for the manufacture of gunpowder for Bang Fai rockets.

User - 31-8-2009 at 08:53

Well i have heard that horse urine was used for this purpose indeed.
Nitrate salts can be scraped from the walls of old stables.

Another method that is supposed to be used was the extraction of soil.
Again, i can't really imagine this as a primairy source.

Does make me wonder, how did they (couple of ages ago) manage to obtain such large amounts of salpeter.
I can imagine that especially in times of war a lot of gunpowder was needed.

hissingnoise - 31-8-2009 at 09:32

Historically, KNO3 was extracted from animal manure.
The British Empire was supplied by Indian KNO3 as manure "matured" much more quickly in the tropical climate!
This was later supplanted by Chilean nitrates from the extensive guano deposits that were mined there.

The WiZard is In - 18-4-2010 at 09:08

Quote: Originally posted by JohnWW  

Mixing ammonia and hypochlorite bleach would probably result in chloramines, NH2Cl and NHCl2; and, if an excess of bleach is used, nitrogen trichloride, NCl3, which is a dangerously unstable explosive (too dangerous to use commercially) as the French discoverer, Dulong, found out.



Chemical and Engineering News Janurary 2, 1989

Nonconfrontational facts about household chemicals Mentioned here earlier was "the vast amount of chlorine given off by reaction of Clorox (about a 51% solution of sodium hypochlorite) with products like Vanish, detergents, and ammonia" (C&EN, Sept. 19, 1988, page 56). These words being slightly off the mark, an anonymous correspondent wishes "to point out a few facts in a nonconfrontational manner."

He or she writes that a pH dependent equilibrium exists among hypochlorite, hypochlorous acid, and chlorine. "Above pH 7.5, hypochlorite ion predominates. Some-where around pH 5 it becomes possible for free chlorine to exist in solution. The rub is that chlorine is much less soluble than either HOCI or OCI, and at about pH 2 or 3 it comes boiling out. This is why you don't mix chlorine bleach with acids. A garden-variety toilet bowl cleaner is usually a moderately strong acid such as phosphoric acid or sodium bisulfate, which easily delivers a pH around 2. It's amazing how much chlorine you can get out of a pint of bleach. That's why products like Clorox bleach and Vanish toilet bowl cleaner carry ... warning notices on their labels. Isn't it amazing how few people bother to read?"

Ammonia is a different case, the correspondent goes on. “Mix an ammonia solution with hypochlorite and you get chloramines-NH2Cl, NHCl2, and NCl3. The chloramines are alkaline but less soluble than ammonia, so they bubble out. They are also poisonous. That's what happens when you mix hypochlorite bleach with household ammonia.”

"So what happens when you mix bleach with detergents? Clean clothes."


MMWR September 13, 1991 / 40(36);619-621,627-629


Epidemiologic Notes and Reports Chlorine Gas Toxicity from Mixture of Bleach with Other Cleaning Products – California

From October 1987 through November 1989, five episodes of chlorine gas exposure with toxicity to at least 14 persons occurred at two state hospitals in California. Each hospital provides inpatient treatment to approximately 1000 forensic psychiatric patients. As part of their rehabilitation programs, selected patients perform cleaning duties under the supervision of janitors or nursing staff.

Each incident occurred during the performance of these duties and involved the mixture of bleach (sodium hypochlorite) and a phosphoric acid cleaner by inpatients. This mixture produced chlorine gas and other chemical byproducts (Figure 1a and 1b), and resulted in temporary illness in exposed persons.

Hospital A

Episode 1. On October 18, 1987, a patient poured an undetermined amount of a 4% phosphoric acid cleaner into a bucket containing diluted bleach. A chemical reaction occurred immediately, releasing an irritating gas. The patient was
assisted from the room, and the cleaning solution was diluted with water and poured down a drain. Windows were opened to ventilate the area, and the ward was evacuated. The patient complained of anxiety, chest tightness, difficulty breathing, and heartburn; physical examination revealed scattered bibasilar pulmonary rhonchi. He was treated with supplementary oxygen, and most symptoms subsided after 1 hour.

Episode 2. On December 19, 1987, a patient mopped a bathroom floor with a 4% phosphoric acid solution, then rinsed the floor with water. Immediately after he applied a bleach and water solution to the floor, a noxious gas with a strong odor was emitted. The mixture was poured down a drain, and the floor was again
rinsed with water; however, because the room's exhaust fan was inoperative and windows had been sealed shut, the gas dispersed throughout the ward and caused symptoms in other patients. The ward was evacuated; patients and staff returned after 1-1/2 hours when the odor had dissipated. Within an hour of their return, additional patients and staff complained of symptoms including nausea, eye irritation, tearing, sore throat, headache, cough, and chest tightness; one patient had an acute exacerbation of asthma. The ward was reevacuated until the following day. The local fire department assisted with ventilation.

Episode 3. On December 25, 1987, a patient mixed approximately 1/2 L of bleach and 1 L of a 4% phosphoric acid cleaner in a bucket, creating a noxious gas. The patient rapidly developed eye irritation followed by fatigue; four employees developed symptoms that included a lightheaded dizziness, nausea,
eye and nose irritation, headache, and chest tightness. The ward was evacuated until chemical residues on the bathroom floors had been rinsed and air exchange had been completed using the existing exhaust fan system. For some persons, symptoms persisted for several hours. More than an hour after the episode, two employees entered an enclosed nursing office 50 feet from the gas release site; despite the absence of a detectable chlorine odor, both promptly experienced recurrent symptoms.

Following these three incidents, patients and employees were interviewed to establish policies to prevent recurrences. Each incident involved the same phosphoric acid formulation. The three patients had been supervised by different staff; they denied mixing the chemicals intentionally to create a disturbance,
denied knowing each other, and denied knowledge of previous episodes. Each incident occurred on a weekend or holiday, when janitors were off duty and the patients were cleaning bathroom floors while being supervised by ward nursing staff without constant observation.

Beginning December 29, controls were instituted on the storage and use of the phosphoric acid cleaner at hospital A. The cleaner was dispensed by housekeeping supervisors to janitors, who kept it locked in storage areas accessible to employees only.

Episode 4. Despite more stringent controls over the use of cleaning products, a fourth episode occurred. On November 3, 1989, a patient supervised by a new employee was allowed in a locked storage area and poured an undetermined amount of 4% phosphoric acid cleaner into a bucket containing bleach and water,
immediately producing a cloud of noxious vapor.

The employee assisted the patient from the area, then returned to the area and poured the contents of the bucket down a sink. The employee, who was exposed to the vapors for less than 1 minute, reported immediate throat and nasal burning that persisted for more than 24 hours, as well as transient dizziness and nausea.
Supplemental oxygen was administered at a local acute-care hospital emergency room for 3 hours. The employee completely recovered within 36 hours following exposure. The patient had no symptoms.

Following this incident, acidic cleaning products at hospital A were locked in the offices of housekeeping supervisors; access was available only to janitors and was denied to both nursing staff and patients. In addition, the hospital has prohibited the mixing of cleaning products. No further incidents have occurred.

Hospital B

On December 7, 1988, a patient assisting in janitorial duties mixed bleach with phosphoric acid cleaner. Immediately a noxious gas with a strong odor was detected and prompted the evacuation of two wards for 1-1/2 hours. Fire department personnel using self-contained breathing equipment disposed of the chemicals and ventilated the area. The patient experienced vomiting, cough, and inspiratory discomfort; elevated blood pressure and fever were noted when the patient was treated in the emergency room. Five employees who helped evacuate the ward complained of
symptoms including eye irritation and shortness of breath. Employees and patients returned approximately 1-1/2 hours after the area was ventilated. After this incident, hospital B instituted warning labels on all chemical cleaning products and posted precautionary (i.e., "do not mix") signs on janitorial closets.
Bleach and acidic cleaning products were restricted to use by staff.

No further incidents involving phosphoric acid products have occurred at this hospital.

Product Label Investigation and Modifications

The label of the phosphoric acid cleaner involved in all five incidents did not list the active ingredient nor warn of the potential for toxic reactions when phosphoric acid was mixed with other chemicals. The material safety data sheet (MSDS) did not describe potentially toxic chemical reactions or incompatibilities. The labels and MSDSs of two other products containing phosphoric acid in use at hospital A, including one with a 30% acid concentration, also lacked information on reactions and incompatibilities with hypochlorite.

After notification by hospital A in December 1987 about episodes 1-3, a new label was supplied by the chemical manufacturer in early 1988 for use by institutional customers wishing to transfer the product into smaller storage containers. The new label included the statement: "Do not mix with other chemicals (such as bleach or ammonia)." In 1989, the product's label was revised to add a similar statement. The MSDS was revised in May 1991; it now mentions incompatibility with ammonia or bleach but still does not state what will result from those mixtures.

The product is marketed directly by the manufacturer to institutions in Arizona, California, Montana, Oregon, and Washington. It is not sold in stores to the general public and therefore is not considered a consumer product by the U.S.
Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) and is exempt from labeling requirements of the federal Hazardous Substances Act. However, according to the California Department of Industrial Relations, Division of Occupational Safety and Health (Cal-OSHA), as a California workplace product it is subject to the state's hazard communication standards, which require the label to list the
phosphoric acid and appropriate hazard warnings and the MSDS to include reactivity and incompatibilities; the wording to describe the chemical interactions is not specified by law (R.E. Erickson, Cal-OSHA, personal communication, 1991). Reported by: RP Hattis, MD, California Dept of Mental Health; JR Greer,
MD, S Dietrich, DO, S Olafsson, MD, Dept of Preventive Medicine, Loma Linda Univ, Loma Linda; KR McAndrew, Long Beach Memorial Hospital, California. Health Studies Br, Div of Environmental Hazards and Health Effects, National
Center for Environmental Health and Injury Control, CDC.

Editorial Note

Editorial Note: The chemicals involved in the first three incidents were a standard household bleach (5.25% sodium hypochlorite solution [NaOCl]) and a 4% phosphoric acid (H3PO4) cleaning agent. When sodium hypochlorite and an acid are mixed, chlorine gas and water are released (Figure 1a). Chlorine gas reacts
with the water to form hydrochloric and hypochlorous acids (Figure 1b). Chlorine gas may cause a variety of symptoms as a function of the severity of exposure (1-3). Hydrochloric acid also causes inflammation that may, along with nascent oxygen release, be one of the mechanisms of tissue damage by chlorine (4).

Mild mucous membrane irritation may occur in some persons after several hours at levels as low as the threshold limit value (TLV) of 1 ppm (1,3); this TLV may warrant reassessment (1). A level of at least 3 ppm may cause extreme irritation of the eyes and respiratory tract, but a detectable odor is usually not present
below 3.5 ppm (2). Symptoms following exposure to chlorine have included irritation of the eyes, nose, and throat; dizziness; cough; and chest pain or constriction. Severe exposure may cause pulmonary edema, bronchiolar and alveolar damage, and pneumomediastinum (1,2,4-6).

When bleach is mixed with ammonia-containing compounds, monochloramine (NH2Cl) (Figure 1c) and dichloramine (NHCl2) (Figure 1d) are formed, which may produce tearing, respiratory tract irritation, and nausea. These compounds decompose in water to hypochlorous acid and free ammonia gas (6-8); the former combines with moisture forming hydrochloric acid and toxic nascent oxygen (8); the latter is a respiratory and mucous membrane irritant and can cause pulmonary edema and pneumonia (6,7).

Only four case reports have been published of chlorine toxicity from mixing bleach with acid cleaning agents, including one describing near-fatal pulmonary edema, two of pneumomediastinum, and one of mild illness in which other family
members also became symptomatic. None of these reports involved phosphoric acid; in three, inadequate ventilation probably contributed to the toxic effects (4-6). However, the American Association of Poison Control Centers data collection
system listed 409 cases of chlorine exposure in 1990 from acid mixtures with hypochlorite that were reported from 72 participating centers serving 77% of the U.S. population. Of these cases, 395 (97%) were unintentional exposures and
356 (87%) occurred among persons aged >17 years; 128 required treatment in health-care facilities. Of 340 exposures for which outcome was known, 292 were considered to have caused minor and 30 moderate illness (9). Cases recorded by poison-control centers probably underrepresent substantially the episodes
actually occurring; for example, no poison-control center was consulted about the five incidents in this report.

A directive for CPSC compliance staff for monitoring the chemical product industry requires labels on consumer products containing 5% or more hypochlorite to include warnings against mixing with acids and other household chemicals and for labels of products containing 3% or more ammonia to warn against mixing with chlorine-type bleaches or other household chemicals (10).
There is no required warning for phosphoric acid, nor does the CPSC routinely inspect any chemical consumer products. Products sold only for institutional or other workplace use are not monitored by CPSC, and the responsible occupational health and safety agencies (the federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration or a state agency) rely on manufacturers/importers and employers to be informed of potential health hazards of workplace chemicals and to inform customers and employees by MSDSs (11,12). Agencies monitor workplace chemical labeling and MSDSs by periodic inspections, with feedback to companies with deficiencies (13). The probability that any given chemical
product will be reviewed by this process is low. No complete compilation has been made of the millions of consumer and industrial chemical product formulations, labels, and MSDSs in the United States. There is no federal requirement that wording on labels and MSDSs be cleared by a regulatory agency as a precondition for sale or distribution of chemical products.

Three approaches can be implemented to prevent potential toxic exposures in institutional and other industrial settings from mixtures of bleach with other cleaning agents: 1. Housekeeping policies should be established in institutions to educate new or
untrained employees and patients or inmates who assist in cleaning about the
potential danger of chemical mixtures and to provide constant supervision for persons whose judgement may be impaired. When this is not possible, use of such chemicals should be restricted to fully trained and experienced employees.

2. When chlorine gas is unintentionally released, areas in which the gas could circulate should be evacuated until sufficient air exchanges have occurred to ensure that the gas has been eliminated. The absence of odor is not a reliable indicator of safety. Pending the complete evacuation of gas, employees involved in cleanup or onsite investigation of such incidents should wear protective respiratory equipment, and none should enter without a companion (14).

3. OSHA and state agencies designated by federally approved state occupational
safety and health plans should contact all known manufacturers and importers of cleaning products that contain hypochlorite, acids, or ammonia and are used in institutions and other workplaces to clarify and reinforce proper labeling and
MSDS requirements and to encourage education of their customers about nonmixing.

References
1. Arena JM. Poisoning--toxicology, symptoms, treatment. 5th ed. Springfield, Illinois: Charles C. Thomas, 1986:298-300,316- 8,692.
2. Sax NI, Lewis RJ. Dangerous properties of industrial materials. 7th ed. Vol 2. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold, 1989:768.
3. Ellenhorn MJ, Barceloux DG. Medical toxicology: diagnosis and treatment of human poisonings. New York: Elseviere, 1988:878,891,903.
4. Jones FL. Chlorine poisoning from mixing household cleaners [Letter]. JAMA 1972;222:1312.
5. Gapany-Gapanavicius M, Yellin A, Almog S, Tirosh M. Pneumomediastinum--a complication of chlorine exposure from mixing household cleaning agents. JAMA 1982;248:349-50.
6. Faigel HC. Hazards to health: mixtures of household cleaning agents. N Engl J Med 1964;271:618.
7. Gosselin RE. Clinical toxicology of commercial products. 5th ed. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1984:111-204.
8. Gapany-Gapanavicius M, Molho M, Tirosh M. Chloramine-induced pneumonitis from mixing household cleaning agents. Br Med J 1982;285:1086.
9. Litovitz TL, Bailey KM, Mitz BF, et al. 1990 Annual report of the American Association of Poison Control Centers national data collection system. Am J Emerg Med 1991;9:461-509.
10. Office of the Federal Register. Code of federal regulations: hazardous substances labeling guide. Washington, DC: Office of the Federal Register, National Archives and Records Administration, 1984. (16 CFR 1500.121).
11. Occupational Safety and Health Administration. Preamble to final rule on hazard communication. Federal Register 1983:48:53337.
12. Occupational Safety and Health Administration. Hazard communication. Federal Register 1987;52:31852-86.
13. Occupational Safety and Health Administration, Office of Health Compliance Assistance. Inspection procedures for the hazard communication standard. Washington, DC: Occupational Safety and Health Administration, 1990. [Instruction CPL 2- 2.38C].

NIOSH. Occupational exposure to chlorine: criteria for a recommended standard. Cincinnati, Ohio: US Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, Public Health Service, 1976.










The WiZard is In - 18-4-2010 at 09:17

Quote: Originally posted by JohnWW  

Mixing ammonia and hypochlorite bleach would probably result in chloramines, NH2Cl and NHCl2; and, if an excess of bleach is used, nitrogen trichloride, NCl3, which is a dangerously unstable explosive (too dangerous to use commercially) as the French discoverer, Dulong, found out.



Nitrogen chloride is considered to be one of the most dangerous bodies to
handle, owing to the facility with which it explodes, by shock, friction, or contact
with various bodies.
M. Berthelot 1892


Chloride of azote was discovered by my good friend, physician and professor
of physics at the École Polytechnique Pierre Louis Dulong. I first meet him at
Berthollet's home at Arcueil just south of Paris, where Berthollet had settled
following his return from Napoleon's abortive Egyptian campaign. All the greats
meet their; Berthollet's neighbour Laplace, Arago, Bérand, Biot, Amédée
Berthollet (Claude's son), Chaptal, Collet-Desostils, de Candolle, Gay-Lussac,
Humboldt, Malus, Poisson and Thernard. Napoleon showed his approval of our
meetings by allowing the use of the title "Société d'Arcueil" for our gatherings.

Pierre D. first published notice of his discovery in Schweigger's J. Chem. Pharm.
8, 32 (1812). Shortly there after he lost and eye and three fingers when a sample
exploded in his laboratory!! Indeed, our mutual friend Humphry Davy was also
severely injured although happily not maimed by an unexpected explosion of a
small quantity of Pierre's "une nouvelle substance detonnante". [Later Gay-
Lussac and Thernard suffered from inhaling hydrogen fluoride fumes.]

"The preparation and handling of this compound requires the greatest care.
Every vessel employed must be washed by alkali-lye in order to free it from
grease; even grease from the fingers may cause an explosion. The substance
[yellow oily liquid] is very liable to spontaneous explosion, and thick gloves, and a
face shield are indispensable." It is also possible to cause it to explode by
exposure to strong sun light or the light of a magnesium flame!


--------------
Small amounts of nitrogen trichloride can be created during the production of chlorine:

3.4 Other Nitrogen Trichloride Incidents

1949, February 4 and 6. Croton Lake Gate House, New York City Water Supply.

The official report is as follows: "A ton container (No. 3058) which had been
shipped from Syracuse on multi-unit car SPX 8501, was reported leaking by the
foreman of Croton Lake Gate House. The container, which had been placed in
vertical storage, was placed under vacuum hood, and the water injector was
apparently carrying off the fumes satisfactorily.

Solvay arranged to get our Chlorine Emergency Kit from South Kearny, New
Jersey. Mr. Weil arrived on Thursday morning, February 5th, and proceeded to
investigate. The hood was raised and after removing the valve hat, it was found
the leak was through the threads at the base of the valve. It was apparent that
erosion and progressed too far to permit stopping the leak by tightening the
valve. Accordingly the capping device from the emergency kit was applied and
the leak stopped.

A temporary line was connected from the container to the chlorine gas manifold
in the adjacent chlorinator room. An experimental Wallace & Tiernan chlorinator
was operating from the chlorine manifold at a rate of 2040 pounds (approximately
1/3 capacity), equivalent to a feed of 170 lb. of chlorine in two hours. Five other
vertical ton containers on individual scales were also connected to the manifold,
but all were shut off when No. 3058 was opened to the line.

A water shower (38o) was applied with sufficient flow to prevent ice forming on
the outside of the container. However, this did not provide sufficient flow of gas,
and so container in No. 3 position was opened sufficiently to maintain 8 to 10
pounds pressure at the chlorinator.

Various readings were recorded at two hour intervals to establish the amount of
chlorine removed from No. 3058. It was planned to continue use of the chlorine
by this method until the container was empty.

On February 6 the container, apparently empty, was turned off at 9:00 P.M. and
exploded at 9:40 with a report heard across the lake.

Ton container No. 3058 had ruptured the side wall nearly all around the
circumference near the chime opposite the valve end. A roughly oval section
about 18" x 11" blew out nearly completely. The container fell over and rested
with the base only about two feet from the center of the original position.

The upper part of a 12-inch diameter cast iron wheel was broken from the ton
container carrying rig which was standing nearby, and the two broken pieces
were found respectively about 24 ft. and 29 ft. away. A step ladder was crushed,
and the floor and adjacent brick wall were splashed with a reddish-brown
substance apparently iron chloride. Two upright pegs (about 8" length of 3/4"
pipe) from the small skid on which the container had been standing were torn off
and found about 18 ft. away in one direction and about 20 ft. in the opposite
direction. The water shower rig was lying nearby apparently undamaged.

The emergency device No. 3 had jarred loose but remained inside the chime.
The chlorine line was still attached, with the valve on the container wide open but
with the valve at the manifold closed and no chlorine leaking into the container
from that source.


----------
The West American scientist Official Organ of the San Diego Society of Natural History
By Charles Russell Orcutt
1888

MARTYRS OF SCIENCE.
The scientific investigator, and notably the experimenting chemist, incurs dangers
that would be likely to appall the most valiant fighters, and he meets them calmly
and deliberately, not in hot blood and excitement. Familiarity with danger breeds
recklessness, if not contempt, and the chemist will coolly taste with the tip of his
tongue any unknown liquid that may be handed to him. Prussic acid is about the only
thing he will not put into his mouth, but he can recognize that without tasting it. He
will make all sorts of chemical combinations, and try them to see if they are explosive
or otherwise dangerous, and sometimes he discovers in a very unpleasant way that
his new product is loaded. Dulong, in 1811 discovered chloride of nitrogen, and when
he recovered consciousness, amid the wreck of all the glassware in his laboratory, he
made a note with his unwounded hand, of the fact that chloride of nitrogen is highly
explosive. About a year afterward, in trying to ascertain the exact conditions
necessary to explode the compound, he lost an eye and two fingers. Davy, in the
same year, had a similar adventure with the new explosive. A tube containing a small
quantity was suddenly shivered to atoms without any pparent cause, and a piece of
the glass struck Davy in the corner of the right eye, disabling him from further
immediate experiments. In July, 1813, Davy set about finding out what was the
matter with chloride of nitrogen, and attempted an analysis by mercury. The stuff
went off again as usual, but Davy had protected his eyes with a thick plate of glass,
and he was wounded only in the head and hands. Faraday was an assistant to Davy
at this time. He was holding a small tube containing a few grains of the chloride
between his thumb and finger, when a sudden and wholly unprovoked explosion
occurred, stunning him and badly tearing his hand.



The WiZard is In - 18-4-2010 at 15:15

Quote: Originally posted by NeutralIon  
Its really amazing what they can do with chemicals on TV!
:D



Turning back the clock ....

The April 13, 1947 radio broadcast of Nick Carter - Master Detective,
The Case of the Chemical Chickens. Nick pops into his his lab and finds —
nitroglycerin in store bought eggs!

Plot dobe ... bad guys are making NG on their farm for
a reason I cannot remember. The NG somehow gets into
the chickens an thence into their eggs. Given NG is toxic
and chickens have long been used as poison food testers
for royalty .... Even if they lived me thinks the possibility
of any getting into their eggs ..........


/djh/
---------
All sciences start with "stamp-collecting" — the patient accumulation
of multicoloured facts which are then stuck into an album until a pattern
emerges. This pattern is known as theory, and is used to predict other
patterns of facts, which may or may not turn out to be correct. Those
new patterns which do emerge are then used to create yet more
theory. And so the subject progresses.

A secret fear of many scientists, though, is that having started with
stamp-collecting, their subject will also end with it — that facts will
accumulate endlessly with out any new theory becoming apparent. And it
is a fear of chemists, in particular, that this has already happened — to
chemistry, Having explained in enormous detail over the last two
centuries which chemical elements exist and how they react together
to form molecules, all that has seemed to be left to chemists is to
make more and more of those molecules without advancing the
subjects theory.

Extracted from: The Economists November 30th 1996

The WiZard is In - 18-4-2010 at 15:18

Quote: Originally posted by NeutralIon  
Its really amazing what they can do with chemicals on TV!
:D



Sometimes the chemistry works.

New York Times 30viii93
Frenchwoman Sues Blaming TV for Son's Death,
By MARLISE SIMONS
Special to the New York Times

·PARIS, Aug. 29— A Frenchwoman is suing the head of a state owned television
channel for manslaughter after her 17 old son was killed by a home made bomb
that she said he learned to make from the American television series
"MacGyver."

Marine Laine said her son Romain and his friend, Cedric Nouyrigat; also 17
mixed crystallized sugar and weed ' killer, stuffed It Into the handlebar of a
bicycle and ignited It to test a technique used by MacGyver, a television hero
who is part adventurer, part scientific wizard.

Romain was killed immediately by the powerful explosion, which occurred In
October in the cellar of the boy's grandmother's home. Mrs. Laine. said Cedric
died minutes later, but lived long enough to explain what they were The television
channel, France 2, denied responsibility, saying that the series had ended two
months before the accident and that no scenes had shown any overt chemical
manipulations.

It also said that "MacGyver," starring Richard Dean Anderson, had been shown
in 87 countries and that a 1991 opinion poll in France had shown the series to be
a favorite among children, parents and teachers.

Mrs. Laine said in an interview on Friday that that she would use the lawsuit and
her son's death to campaign against excessive violence on television. "There is
so much violence and manipulation of children " she said. "It dominates
everything. '

To underscore the point that the two boys followed a MacGyver recipe, Mrs.
Laine and several scientists will remake the bomb and reenact the explosion
before guests and television cameras in October.

"This Is not the first time something happened because of MacGyver," she said,
citing a large fire that almost destroyed a school in a village in northern France
last year. A group of boys set the fire accidentally when they were trying to
imitate one of MacGyver's inventions, it was reported at the time. The hero of the
adventure series uses ingenuity to outwit his adversaries and instead of using
conventional weapon. he often invents his own contraptions ~ sing everyday
objects.

For her campaign starting In September, Mrs. Laine has been promised help
from some politicians, teachers, psychologists and others who want to impose
limits on daytime television broadcasts. Among them is Liliane Lurcat, a
prominent child psychologist and author of many articles and three books on the
effects of television on small children.

Mrs. Lurcat, who has just retired as research director at the National Center of
Scientific Research, said she has long deplored the absence of a real debate in
France about the ethics and the powers of this pervasive medium.

"There has been no real debate," she said, "because there has been no forum,
except for a few specialized publications. Television and newspapers have
backed away from the issue."

But, she added, "there is a silent majority" of many parents, teachers and others
who are deeply concerned about the Impact of television on the young. She says
such groups regularly invite her and others to speak on the subject.

By forcing the question of the death of, Mrs. Laine's son Into the courtroom,
some specialists say, the mother may well touch off a broad public debate about
the ethics of television. Mrs. Laine is suing Herve Bourges, the head of French
state television, which owns the channels France 2 and France 3. She has also
filed suit against Jacques Boutet, the head of the regulatory agency for radio and
television. Mr. Bourges has said he will sue anyone who repeats the "defamatory
charges" made against him.

France's television channels do not usually rate their programs except for the
music channel M6, which commonly introduces films by describing the age
groups for which they are suitable. Specialists say violence on television has
increased in the last decade as the number of channels and the competition for
viewers has risen. In recent years, France has imported more foreign television
series and cartoons, including many from the United States and Japan.

psychokinetic - 18-4-2010 at 20:11

"A Frenchwoman is suing the head of a state owned television
channel for manslaughter after her 17 old son was killed by a home made bomb
that she said he learned to make from the American television series
"MacGyver.""


-Maybe thet should sue her for making it :P

JohnWW - 19-4-2010 at 03:03

That "weedkiller", mixed with sugar, that exploded in France (above) was probably NaClO3, which is also explosive, and liable to be dangerously so e.g. if subjected to friction.

The WiZard is In - 19-4-2010 at 06:16

Quote: Originally posted by JohnWW  
That "weedkiller", mixed with sugar, that exploded in France (above) was probably NaClO3, which is also explosive, and liable to be dangerously so e.g. if subjected to friction.


On the 27th of March 1952, four people were killed and several
injured in the chemistry building of Howard University, Washington, D.C. when
400 pounds of sodium chlorate (possibly contaminated with cardboard) being
removed from a basement storage room exploded. (Presumable from a electric
spark generated when a worker grasped the metal handles of the loaded hand
truck.)

A 1979 edition of the German medical journal "Plastische Chirugie" (Plastic
surgery) contain an article entitled: Mikrochirurgisch-plasticsche Versorgung der
explosionsverletzten Hand. (Mico-plastic surgery for severe explosion injury to
the hand.) "During the last two years, 16 severe explosion injuries of the hand
have been treated with plastic microsurgery in our hospital. The injury had arisen
in seven cases FROM THE MIXTURE SUGAR + SODIUM CHLORATE. This
substance mixture may already be caused to explode by slight vibrations and
the warmth of the hands."

Photos accompanying the article show either; a victims hand, or a squirrel that
met a eighteen wheel'r while crossing the interstate! No doubt an amazing bit of
surgery. Well; I guess .... two and a half fingers, and a toe are better then no
hand! Must of hurt a bit though.

What we have here is a classic case of a low melting point fuel and a low melting
point oxidizer. A combination likely to be more then a little sensitive/unstable.

By-the-by, one of the other cases was the resulted of the mixing Potassium
chlorate and red phosphorus. (For further info on this combination, see my two [now 4]
articles in the American Fireworks News.)


In the FDR the BKA (Bunderskriminalamt) tests on "IEDs"
(improvised explosive devices ) reported that:

"..... a very common home-made explosive in the German crime scene. It
consists of a herbicide containing sodium chlorate with 25% sodium chloride, and
of sugar.

quicksilver - 19-4-2010 at 06:29

Returning to the subject of Bad Chemistry on TV; it was exactly that which prompted many people to despise the well written show "Breaking Bad".
Albeit the series was very well written and acted, it painted chemistry as a science to be contained in the extreme. The fact that the series was so well done did sever harm to the public's perception of the science as anything but a genre' that must be controlled by the authorities, easily warped into a drug manufacturing agenda, & destined to bring about tragedy.

Only my opinion, but that series did more to paint chemistry as evil than the actual abuse of the science. I feel this way because it enters the "living room" where there is no counter point of rationality; only emotionalism.

Skyjumper - 19-4-2010 at 19:57

One thing I never got was the huge science scenes in shows where they would have liquid bubbling through condensers and such and these huge glassware set ups that are unnecessarily complicated.

the classic unknown blue, red, and green liquids in beakers. Last I checked, a bulk of solutions were clear. Hmmm.

psychokinetic - 20-4-2010 at 00:04

Quote: Originally posted by Skyjumper  
One thing I never got was the huge science scenes in shows where they would have liquid bubbling through condensers and such and these huge glassware set ups that are unnecessarily complicated.

the classic unknown blue, red, and green liquids in beakers. Last I checked, a bulk of solutions were clear. Hmmm.


Didn't you know that EVERY chemical procedure involves at least two halide gases and food colouring?

Skyjumper - 20-4-2010 at 20:37

Thats true. I guess I should run out to the store, I'm almost out of blue food dye. I cant do any acid base titration with out the blue food dye!

The WiZard is In - 25-4-2010 at 13:31

Quote: Originally posted by NeutralIon  
Its really amazing what they can do with chemicals on TV!
:D


And newspapers —

Across Rural America, Drug Casts a Grim Shadow
Fox Butterfield
New York Times 4i04

"The methamphetamine trade has thrived in Audubon County [WY] for a number or
reasons. Methamphetamine is easy to cook locally, Sheriff Johnson said, because his
county of 450 square miles has only 10 law enforcement oficers, and one of the drug's
main ingredients — anhydrous ammonia — is an agricultural fertilizer that lies about
in abundant supply in bags on isolated farm fields almost waiting to be stolen."

Across Rural America, Drug Casts a Grim Shadow
Fox Butterfield
New York Times 4i04 TextText

a brazilian potassium chlorate mine....!

The WiZard is In - 25-4-2010 at 18:29

http://tinyurl.com/3xbc4ek

hissingnoise - 26-4-2010 at 05:34

Electrolysis superfluous. . .

The WiZard is In - 26-4-2010 at 06:17

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
Electrolysis superfluous. . .



Almost... but first a bit of reality.

Any whoooo, I checked upon their web site.....
they mine sylvinite (KClNaCl) by "excavating rectangles of ore known as "panels"
using the room-and-pillar method, whereby rooms are cut into the ore leaving supporting pillars.
The panels are reached through specially-dug access tunnels. The depth of the underground
mine varies between 430 and 640 meters....."

Plant
The process of sylvinite beneficiation..... . The process continues in a concentration plant, which
involves grinding, sorting, desliming, flotation and centrifugation of the KCl concentrate.
In the final stage, the concentrate passes through a fluid bed drier to reduce its humidity.
Solid potassium chloride accounts for around 15% of total production. The remaining 85%
is sent to a compression plant in order to obtain granular potassium chloride.....


The main waste product of the beneficiation process is sodium chloride (NaCl), which is dissolved
and disposed of in the sea via a pipe designed to as to avoid harming the environment.

Now:—

The Analysis of Potassium Nitrate. A. Hellich. Chem. Zeit. 1894, 18, 485-486.
In:- The Journal of The Society of Chemical Industry. 13 (10) 979-80. October
31, 1894.

The author in examining a sample of potassium nitrate which contained only a
trace of chlorine as chloride, tested it for the possible presence of bromate by
deflagrating it with sugar, dissolving the residue in water, acidifying with nitric
acid and adding silver nitrate solution. A precipitate was obtained which proved
to be silver chloride instead of bromide. Further trials with starch, cotton, and
sulphur as reducing agents in place of sugar gave similar results. On fusing the
nitre per se in a platinum dish for some minutes, no reaction with silver nitrate
in the subsequent aqueous extract was observed, but on continuing the heating
and raising the temperature of the fused salt a definite reaction for a chloride
was obtained ; this became more marked on adding manganese dioxide to the
fused salt and heating strongly. In the remainder of the investigation the only
reagents used were manganese dioxide and sulphuric acid, the freedom from
chlorine of which had been previously ascertained. The plan thus modified was
carried out as fellows:-10 grms. of the sample of nitre were mixed with 0.5
grin. of powdered manganese dioxide and the mixture was strongly heated until
the melt had become green. it was then extracted with water (50 cc.), and to it
20 cc. of dilute sulphuric acid were added. The solution was allowed to stand
and was then filtered through a filter previously extracted with dilute sulphuric
acid. The filtrate when tested with silver nitrate gave a white turbidity. Twenty
samples of nitre were examined by this method and chlorine recognised in all,
the quantity varying from that corresponding with a slight turbidity to that
represented by a curdy precipitate. Examination of the precipitate obtained
from a number of samples showed it to he actually silver chloride. The
deduction drawn by the author is that these samples of nitre contained some
chlorine compound incapable of giving a reaction with silver nitrate. Organic
substances containing chlorine are excluded, as such bodies would be broken
up on fusing the nitre containing them, whereas the addition of manganese
dioxide and strong heating are necessary to develop the full reaction. The
absence of chlorates appeared assured from the fact that a portion of the nitre
treated with strong sulphuric acid developed no coloration ; direct experiment
showed that this test suffices for the detection of 0.1 mgrm. of potassium
chlorate in 1 grm of nitre. Another proof of the absence of chlorate was
afforded by slightly colouring the nitre solution with a solution of indigo and
adding sulphurous acid, when the colour of the indigo was not discharged. The
author concludes that the impurity in nitre which contains chlorine is a
perchlorate, the quantity amounting to about 0.25 per cent, in a sample giving
evidence of considerable contamination. Definite proof of the correctness of this
view can best he obtained in a nitre refinery in which fractional separation by
crystallisation of large quantities of nitre is feasible. Every sample of the salt
hitherto examined has shown the presence of per-chlorate, which exists even in
those labelled " chemically pure." The reaction was also given by a sample of
nitre some 20 years old made by an obsolete method of manufacture.-B. B.

- - - - - - -
The Occurrence of Perchlorate in Potassium Nitrate. C. Haussermann. Chem.
Zeit. 1894, 18, 1206-1207. In:- The Journal of the Society of Chemical
Industry. 3 (10) 947. October 31, 1894.

The author confirms the observation of Hellich that the " pure " nitre intended for
gunpowder manufacture has been found invariably to contain perchlorate. The
samples were almost free from chloride. The fact that no chlorate was present
was ascertained by heating the solution with a copper zinc couple and testing
the resulting liquid with silver nitrate. No greater turbidity than that due to the
trace of chloride originally present was produced. Further, the nitric acid
distilling over on heating this nitre with excess of sulphuric acid at 100o C., was
nearly free from chlorine that could be recognised by means of silver nitrate.
Even the acid coming aver at a temperature above 100o C. gave only a slight
reaction for chlorine, but towards the end of the distillation an acid was obtained
which contained a noteworthy amount of chlorine. Per-chlorates are only
attacked by sulphuric acid above 100o C., whereas chlorates are decomposed
before 100o C. is reached.
It may be admitted that Hellich's statement that the chlorine compound
constantly present in nitre is a per-chlorate is correct, but it does not appear that
any danger can arise from this impurity in nitre used for making gunpowder, as
samples thus contaminated have been successfully employed for years. The
removal of the perchlorate on a manufacturing scale could be effected by
keeping the salt fused in a east-iron vessel until no increase in the reaction for
chlorine in a test-portion withdrawn from the mass from time to time, was
obtained. In the event of this plan being adopted special care would have to be
taken to avoid the presence of nitrite in the finished recrystallised product. The
origin of the perchlorate is to be traced to the sodium nitrate used in preparing
the potassium salt by double decomposition. That the perchlorate actually exists
in Chili saltpetre containing 0.5-1.5 per cent. of sodium chloride, is indicated by
the circumstance that. the nitric acid prepared from nitrate of this description is
richest in chlorine towards the end of the distillation, the amount coming over
being large at the beginning of the process (decomposition of chloride) and at
the end (decomposition of perchlorate), and least in the middle fraction.
Perchlorate probably exists ready formed in caliche, which is known to contain
iodate. In the analysis of Chili saltpetre the probable presence of perchlorate
should be considered, and the return of the nitrate by difference should, the
author thinks, not be regarded as adequate.-B. B.


- - - - - - -
Elimination of Potassium Perchlorate from Saltpetre. V. Panastovic. Chem. Zeit.
18, 1894, 1367. In:- The Journal of the Society of Chemical Industry. 14 (2)
157. 28 February 1895.

The analysis of a number of samples was carried out according to FIellich's
method by fusing the saltpetre in a platinum or nickel dish with manganese
dioxide. The fused mass was extracted with water, the filtered solution acidulated
with sulphuric. acid, and the chlorine precipitated with silver nitrate. Old samples
were found to contain as much as 2•5 per cent, of perchlorate ; in a more recent
delivery of 100 barrels, 7 barrels were found to be absolutely free from
perchlorates, but 122 barrels contained above 0.25 per cent. The whole of this
saltpetre was either free from chlorides or contained only traces. It is not known
certainty in how far the presence of perchlorate in saltpetre is responsible for
otherwise unexplained explosions gunpowder works, but the author cites a
number of explosions which occurred in the Servian gunpowder works Stragare
and Obilicévo, and in every case the saltpetre at the time was found to contain
more or less perchlorate. To free the saltpetre from perchlorate, it is dissolved in
copper pans, in water free from chlorine, until a solution of 48o B. is obtained.
This solution is then drawn to into copper cooling-vessels, where it is stirred until
temperature has fallen to 25o C. and the specific gravity to 28o B. The crystals
which then have separated out are freed from mother-liquor, washed with water
several times, and dried; they contain then only mere traces of perchlorate. The
mother-liquors from this crystallisation are evapoprated to 48o B., and the
saltpetre, which crystallises out at 23o C., is again subjected to the above
process. From the final mother-liquors resulting in this process, crystals of
potassium perchlorate were obtained. The agrees with Major Hellich that not
more than 0.02 per cent. of perchlorate should be allowed in saltpetre intended
for the manufacture of gunpowder.-C.O.W.


he Chilean Nitrate Deposits
George E Ericksen
American Scientist July-August 1983 366-374

"The nitrate deposits are unique in both chemical composition and
mineralogy. In addition to a high concentration of nitrate, they have exploitable
quantities of iodine; an extremely high ratio of iodine to bromine, which is the
reverse of the relative abundance's of these two elements in other saline
deposits; and the only perchlorate ion known to occur naturally. The iodate,
chromate, and dichromate minerals-lautarite, briiggenite, dietzeite,
tarapacaite, and lopezite-are known only from these deposits, as is
humberstonite, a nitrate mineral. The other nitrate minerals-soda niter, niter,
and darapskite-are constituents of the so-called cave nitrates, which formed
by decay of bat guano; these minerals are rare or absent in most other
accumulations of saline materials, although they do occur in a few small
deposits of nitrate-rich saline materials in other deserts 'hat are analogous to
the Chilean deposits.

Because of the great local and regional variations in relative amounts of the
saline constituents, the chemical composition of an average or typical nitrate
ore is difficult to estimate. Perhaps the best approximations are those based on
large tonnages of ore processed by the nitrate treatment plants. For example,
from 1932 to 1967, the two largest plants, Maria Elena and Pedro de Valdivia,
had a combined annual production of about a million metric tons of sodium
nitrate. Based on monthly averages for this period, the ore treated by these
plants had the following average content of ionic saline constituents: 10.0%
sulfate, 6.9% sodium, 6.3% nitrate, 4.6% chloride, 1.8% calcium, 0.7%
potassium, 0.5% magnesium, 0.5% borate, 0.06% iodate, and 0.03%
PERCHLORATE (Grossling and Ericksen 1971).These constituents, which
represent the water-soluble material, make up an average of nearly a third of the
nitrate ore, with the remainder being insoluble rock debris and saline minerals
of low solubility. Higher-grade nitrate ores that were mined selectively during
earlier days generally contained two or three times as much nitrate, and during
the earliest period much of the mined ore was relatively pure caliche blanco that
was at least 40% sodium nitrate."

It is suggested that perchlorate was formed by "photochemical reactions,
perhaps between chlorine and ozone in the atmosphere or at ground level.
Simonaitis and Heicklen (1975) theorized that perchloric acid could be formed
by such reactions in the stratosphere; similar reactions may take place in the
troposphere."

Grossling, B.F. and G.E. Eriicksen 1971. Computer studies of the composition
of Chilean nitrate
Ores: Data reduction, basic statistics, and correlation analysis. USGS Open
File Series, no. 1519

Several years ago in Science [?] there was being an article
dealing with sea water and ozone [?] UV light [?]. I
contacted the authors and inquired if they had detected any
perchlorate, they replied like the woman who when asked if
she smoked after intercourse ... I never noticed. (Actually
they didn't look for it.)


franklyn - 1-5-2010 at 13:30

From
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=12231&...
Quote
" A Frenchwoman is suing the head of a state owned television channel for manslaughter
after her 17 old son was killed by a home made bomb that she said he learned to make
from the American television series " MacGyver."

Simple solution , don't watch. Since the adolescent by definition was under age ,
she was self evidently remiss in not being vigilant , for who would know her son
better than she. Where does she get off implying that it is anyone's responsibility
to protect anyone else from their own irresponsibility. As the late Frank Zappa said
" stupidity is it's own reward ", as all aspiring Darwin award winners should note.

It could not be manslaughter which is a crime , wrongful death suit perhaps.
This illustrates the socially prevalent trend of not being personally accountable
for ones actions , and the expectation and encouragement that officially
sanctioned government organs act to protect the " public safety " as it sees ,
also known as " nanny state."


http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=12231&...
Quote
" THE MIXTURE SUGAR + SODIUM CHLORATE. This substance mixture may already
be caused to explode by slight vibrations and the warmth of the hands."

Reminds me of the picric acid controversy. Very dry , risk of inadvertent ignition
is from static electricity. The conjecture advanced by medical personnel is based
on uninformed assessment of the victims own recount. Note that nowhere is there
a warning against confinement of the material in a container , which is the only
way very serious injury can occur.

.

quicksilver - 2-5-2010 at 05:32

Quote: Originally posted by franklyn  
From
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=12231&...
Quote
" A Frenchwoman is suing the head of a state owned television channel for manslaughter
after her 17 old son was killed by a home made bomb that she said he learned to make
from the American television series " MacGyver."
.


However, remember that the post indicated that the woman was in the act of attempting to bring suit...not that she had won.

I remember several revolting civil suites in California wherein a burglar would sue a homeowner for breaking his leg when entering the dwelling or getting stuck in a hole in a roof. It was SO repellent that one of them - I followed up on via Nexus & the thing was thrown out. The NEWS -=WAS=- the stupidity & ridiculousness of the impending law suit.

At least I hope it was...... :(

peach - 28-6-2010 at 10:25

Lead water mains
There's a lining of mineral deposit and oxide on the inside of old lead pipes which forms a protective coating. They're being replaced with MDPE where ever possible for the health aspects but also because it has a really small internal bore and punctures quite easily when a construction worker hits it. It also requires soldering with a torch to reseal it, whereas the MDPE pipe can be sealed back together (and otherwise manipulated) using push fit fittings. And there's A LOT of lead per foot of it (it has really thick walls), making it expensive.

Meth
There was a famous radio commercial by the DEA I think, which was the first geared against a specific drug on public radio stations, about meth. Where they listed all the things used in it's synthesis, like mercury, with sound effects of things electrically sizzling or burning.

It's complete rubbish of coarse, but if there was one group of drug makers I'd expect to mess up and leave traces of that kind of thing in the product, it'd be meth labs. "Washing? Fuck that!". If only they listed some of the things used to produce pharmaceuticals. Genetically modified E.coli, cue image of guy dying in hospital, spewing his guts out of every hole and bleeding from his nose, eyes and ears. "Uuuuuuuuh!"

The radiations
I had a very interesting and unexpected chat with one of the technicians involved with nuclear power stations. Who was explaining to me how the vast majority of their waste has to be labeled as nuclear waste, yet barely has a signature. That includes all the hand towels from the toilets, gloves, overalls, stationary and just about everything in the building, regardless of whether or not it's been near the nuclear material. Of coarse, it all has to go out as commercial waste. And, being from that industry, no normal carrier will touch it. Coffee beans actually have a higher signature than a lot of the waste they have to label and store away, for Greenpeace to draw flowers on.

[Edited on 28-6-2010 by peach]

psychokinetic - 28-6-2010 at 13:29

Entrepreneurial druggie listening to the radio hears:

Quote:
Meth
There was a famous radio commercial by the DEA I think, which was the first geared against a specific drug on public radio stations, about meth. Where they listed all the things used in it's synthesis, like mercury, with sound effects of things electrically sizzling or burning.


"Aw sweet, thanks DEA!"

Besides the fact that they're wrong, do they really think that listing ingredients to the general public is helping?

peach - 3-7-2010 at 16:16

Given how many people think Ecstasy pills have heroin and rat poison in them, it's probably working.

A funnier alternative of what you're talking about is a video of the DEA making meth on youtube. Stellar! :D

They've cut a lot of the work out but they're showing how you can get things from OTC pills and bottles. And they're wearing Hazmats, to make it dramatic. If you're running a reaction and need a Hazmat, you probably don't know what you're doing. Things dangerous enough to require a Hazmat shouldn't be in the air in the first place. The DEA certainly shouldn't be releasing them, with it often being illegal and the kind of thing they'd use to shut down a drugs lab. I'm not involved with the environmental agencies or DEA, and I wouldn't release anything that dangerous if I could avoid it, so wtf are they doing releasing it an airborne format?

Hazmats should only be used when you're cleaning something up you haven't produced.

I can think of far more effective methods of discouraging meth production and use than I've seen from any government body.

Shulgin had a big picture of him shaking hands with the head of the local DEA. Irony knows no bounds.

[Edited on 4-7-2010 by peach]

cnidocyte - 26-8-2010 at 09:58

What kinda crazy bastard swims in NaOH?

hissingnoise - 26-8-2010 at 11:57

The kinda crazy bastard that doesn't need soap?

psychokinetic - 26-8-2010 at 13:38

Well the guy on CSI sure got a good facial.

MagicJigPipe - 13-9-2010 at 20:34

Quote:
Well the guy on CSI sure got a good facial.


Gross...

Not that there's anything wrong with that... ... ... ?

blood

arsphenamine - 14-9-2010 at 07:58

CSI has interchangeably presented ninhydrin and luminol as absolute
tests for blood, sometimes for human blood uniquely.

Nevermind that ninhydrin will react with any primary or secondary amine,
and luminol with adventitious iron/copper/peroxides/isothiocyanates,
to name a few.

I stopped watching after they used luminol on a knife blade.
(hard wince followed by facepalm)

I imagine, but will never see, a CSI mashup in which Marg Helgenberger
declares that a particular luminol test showed presence of horseradish.

psychokinetic - 14-9-2010 at 13:00

*uses ninhydrin on wet patch of floor*
Look! The perp obviously pissed himself right here!

MagicJigPipe - 21-9-2010 at 17:14

Just saw an episode of CSI where one of the researchers poured acetone onto the hood of a car (bonnet for you UKers) and it bubbled and fizzed like he had just poured an acid onto some bicarbonate salt.

The things we will do just to be dramatic...

psychokinetic - 21-9-2010 at 19:10

The makers of CSI must go through so much vinegar ad baking soda.

Heated to 800o C.

The WiZard is In - 5-11-2010 at 12:22

Bomb-making for beginners
Bangers
An explosive cat-and-mouse game
The Economist
Nov 4th 2010

CONFLICT creates arms races. As in the struggle against computer hacking or drug
detection, stopping bomb-makers is a race between two kinds of innovation: creating
the bad stuff and detecting it. Intelligence agencies regularly draw up lists of
“substances of interest” and pass them on to firms that design and supply detection
technology, says Kevin Riordan, of Smiths, an aviation-security firm. But once a
substance can be routinely detected, terrorists will either attempt to conceal it better, or
make something else.

A dog’s nose is still a good detector for many explosives. Some have suggested bomb-
sniffing bees as a further step. But technology is the basis of the explosive- detection
business and it usually works either by examining the density of material using X-rays
or by using spectroscopy to detect the mass and mobility of molecules. For more
advanced machines, detecting a new explosive can be as simple as upgrading the
software. First, the new target is characterised, then an algorithm (a series of rules
programmed into a computer) is devised to detect it in scanned samples.

John Wyatt, a terrorism expert at SDS, a security company, says that only the most
advanced X-ray machines can flag up the pentaerythritol tetranitrate (PETN) used in the
Yemeni cargo bombs. Other X-ray machines may find it if the operators know what to
look for (it should show up orange instead of blue). Swabs should pick up it up too
(removing traces of most explosives requires thorough scrubbing) but poor training
means that operators often use them incorrectly.

As military high-explosives have become harder to get hold of, terrorists have moved to
commercially available materials. Counter-terrorism experts fret about home-made
high explosives. But made in any useful quantity, these require large amounts of
suspicious substances. They are tricky to concoct and more likely to kill their makers
than their targets.

PETN, for example, is found in military devices such as landmines, and it is sold
commercially as a heart drug. But making it yourself requires two nasty acids to be
heated to 800°C. “If you don’t know what you are doing,” says Keith Plumb, of Britain’s
Institution of Chemical Engineers, “you have a 100% chance of death”. PETN is also
not particularly easy to detonate. That stymied the “underpants bomber” on a Detroit-
bound plane at Christmas.

Although American and British authorities have said the devices dispatched from
Yemen were intended to blow up aeroplanes and were capable of doing so, experts in
explosions and explosives are more cautious. Whether a bomb of this size could bring
down a plane would depend on the size of the aircraft and where in the hold it was
placed (next to the hull would be ideal). The bomb-maker has no control over either.
Hans Michels, a professor of safety engineering at London’s Imperial College, estimates
that about 1.5lb (0.7kg) of PETN could be packed into the kind of printer cartridges
used in the bombs. That is around a tenth to a fifth of the power of the bomb that blew
up a London bus in the bombing in July 2005. Something of this size, he reckons, would
destroy two rooms in a suburban dwelling. Or a synagogue.

hissingnoise - 5-11-2010 at 13:42

Quote:
Some have suggested bomb-
sniffing bees as a further step.

When you become proficient in bee-speak and they alert you of an explosive device they can also give you the correct spelling?

MagicJigPipe - 5-11-2010 at 21:04

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMpXAknykeg

The WiZard is In - 6-11-2010 at 05:48

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
Quote:
Some have suggested bomb-
sniffing bees as a further step.

When you become proficient in bee-speak and they alert you of an explosive device they can also give you the correct spelling?




SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
Robomoths
The Economist 4iii00

NSECTS are not nearly as biddable as dogs or horses. Although they can perform
amazing feats of strength and dexterity on their own scale, that scale is so much
smaller than humanity's that it is not surprising they have been overlooked. With rare
exceptions, such as bees and silkworms, the insect world is a source of pests rather
than of pets or pack animals.

in an age of miniaturisation, however, a few researchers are wondering if more in-
sects might be harnessed to the service of man. one is John Hildebrand, a neurobiol-
ogist at the University of Arizona. As part of a project run by America's Defence Ad-
vanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA), he and his colleagues have been working
with the giant sphinx moth to create a "bioot"--an animal that can be controlled
electronically by a human. They have designed a radio transmitter small enough to
attach to a sphinx moth without impairing its ability to fly. The next stage is to add a re-
ceiver to tell the moth where to go.

Moths may not be that bright, but Dr Hildebrand believes they can be manipulated in
rather the same way as a donkey is by dangling a carrot in front of its head, The "carrot"
he proposes is a sex pheromone-a mixture of chemicals that female sphinx moths give
off to attract males. It is potent stuff. Previous research has shown that a few molecules
are enough to attract a male's attention, and that, given a favourable wind, an amorous
male can find a mate who is several kilometres away.

One of the team's ideas is to fit male sphinx moths with small, radio-controlled
pheromone dispensers. A moth's pheromone-detectors are its antennae. It can work
out where pheromone molecules are coming from by comparing the signals from each
antenna, in the same way that a person works out the direction of a sound by
comparing signals from each ear. A moth's senses could be subverted by puffing
suitable molecules from a dispenser to steer it towards a chosen target.

That is a rather crude approach. Dr Hildebrand hopes to be more subtle. He has spent
much of his career examining how a moth's nervous system responds to the
pheromone, and he thinks he knows enough to steer a moth directly, without the need
for the chemicals themselves. He plans to do it by attaching electrodes to the nerves
involved and stimulating them appropriately-turning the moth into a genuine,
radio-controlled biobot.

That would be an interesting demonstration of mankind's powers over nature. Could
it also be useful? Brian Smith and his colleagues at Ohio State University have recently
shown that sphinx moths can be manipulated like dogs as well as donkeys. Pavlov's
early experiments on reflexes trained dogs to salivate at the sound of a bell, by ringing
one every time they were fed with meat. Dr Smith's team has mimicked Pavlov by
training moths to stick their tongues out in response to a chemical called
cyclohexanone, which was puffed at them while they were fed sugared water.

The reason that this trick might be useful-and the reason for DARPA's interest-is that
cyclohexanone is a volatile component Of TNT, an explosive often used in landmines.
By releasing a swarm of trained moths over a minefield, and observing where they
stuck their tongues out, it should be possible to locate mines without risk either to
people or to expensive mine-detecting machinery.

It is hard to see if a moth is sticking its tongue out at a range of several hundred
metres. But Dr Smith has thought of a way round that. He can sense when a moth is
blowing a raspberry by attaching a wire to the muscle that controls the insect's tongue,
and using it to transmit a signal via one of Dr Hildebrand's tiny electronic backpacks.

If lepidopteran mine detectors work, they could be the start of a new industry. The
rate at which video cameras are being miniaturised means that they, too, may soon be
light enough for insects to carry. That would have obvious military applications, even if
one countermeasure is obvious, too: surrounding sensitive installations with giant
candies.

hissingnoise - 6-11-2010 at 07:39

Quote:
It is hard to see if a moth is sticking its tongue out at a range of several hundred metres.

Wow! Several hundred metres?
I had no idea their tongues were anything like as long as that! :D


For your information — amusement

The WiZard is In - 6-11-2010 at 10:24

Detecting landmines
Ratting on mines

Most mine detectors make a buzzing noise. Some go squeak, squeak

PEOPLE who think of rats as vermin may wish to reconsider. With proper
training, the animal could turn out to be man's best friend, at least if the man in
question lives in an area with unmapped minefields. Apopo, a Belgian charity, is
exploring the use of African giant pouched rats-prized hitherto only for their
meat-as "biosensors" capable of locating landmines.

The idea of using animals to find mines is hardly new. Researchers have
studied ways to harness bees' and cockroaches' keen senses of smell to detect
explosives, and dogs are already used in de-mining work. But according to Ron
Verhagen, the chief scientist at Apopo, rats offer a number of advantages when
it comes to locating mines.

First, despite their impressive size for a rodent (25cm from nose to tail when
full grown), they are too light to set off mines if they tread on them. They are also
faster learners than dogs, and their behaviour is easier to decipher and control
than an insect's. Unlike dogs, rats do not require the care and attention of a
dedicated trainer. Since they live on a diet of nuts and fruit, they are cheaper to
feed than their canine competitors. They are easier to house and transport than
dogs, and being African animals, are immune to most of the tropical diseases
that afflict imported dogs. The rats' only weakness is that they are nocturnal, and
therefore prone to heat stroke.

To train their rats, Apopo's scientists blow air containing explosive traces at the
animals. Using food rewards-bananas and avocados-the researchers have
taught their rats to signal what they sniff by pushing levers. The 80 or so rats,
known as Victor, Stefan, Nicholas and so on, are able to detect smaller amounts
of explosive than most existing biosensors.

Apopo is exploring two ways of putting the rats to work. One would be to use
the rats directly to detect landmines: they would be taught to scratch at the soil to
indicate a mine. The alternative is the opposite idea, having the rats confirm
areas to be free of mines. This would involve using mobile field laboratories,
keeping the rats caged-and cool-and collecting soil samples for them to sniff for
explosives.

Following two years of laboratory work in Belgium, Apopo scientists have now
moved to Sokoine University of Agriculture in Tanzania, where they are con-
ducting field tests with local scientists. The charity is also planning to conduct
tests in Angola, in conjunction with Menschen gegen Minen, a German
de-mining organisation. if all goes well, Victor, Stefan and their colleagues could
graduate from providing protein to sweeping for mines within the next two years.

The Economist 11 viii 01


djh
---
It has been said that —
in traditional Arab culture
the wife walked 3-paces
behind her husband. During
WW II they walked 3-paces ahead!

---------
c. Another antipersonnel device invented by the Germans and called the pistol
ground spike (fig. 127) was nicknamed the "castrator" by American soldiers. Device was
easy to plant and hard to detect, as little ground was disturbed. Operating as a
miniature mortar, the six inch hollow spike of a castrator was driven into the ground
flush with the surface. The projectile consisted of a small arms cartridge which was
dropped in the hollow spike, nose up. Stepping on the bullet exerted enough pressure
(4 pounds minimum) to release a spring that drove a striker against the cartridge cap
firing the round. Traveling upward, the bullet can penetrate foot, leg, or thigh.





bquirky - 6-11-2010 at 11:43

To be fair though i think a lot of Docters think medical TV shows are full of bolocks.
and alot of lawers & cops think law tv shows are bogus.
and I know that IT & Computer science is badly represented on TV.

and im sure the military and inteligence comunity are bemused too..

TV & movies are stylised fantasy designed to be fun and require a 'suspension of disbelife"
and id be willing to seriously put forwared the argument that the more chemistry on tv (no mater how Kewl) the better.


12AX7 - 8-11-2010 at 10:35

I was watching Bones the other day and saw some truely despicable chemistry presented, associated with cyanoacrylates. Usually the show is somewhere between good and tolerable.

Tim

Bad science in the comics

The WiZard is In - 30-3-2011 at 06:30

http://comics.com/ripleys_believe_it_or_not/

For 30 March 2011

Neil - 3-5-2011 at 16:18

Fun note, You spend hours upon hours making an experiment not only safe but idiot proof and the guy who yells at the guy who holds the camera will find a way to make it look dangerous and out of control, and so is 'science TV' delivered to the drooling masses.

hissingnoise - 23-5-2011 at 06:19

I seem to remember a Roy Scheider movie thriller in which he played a businessman involved in the explosion-welding industry, but I can't seem to find it on google . . .
Does anyone remember such a film?



The WiZard is In - 23-5-2011 at 06:54

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
I seem to remember a Roy Scheider movie thriller in which he played a businessman involved in the explosion-welding industry, but I can't seem to find it on google . . .
Does anyone remember such a film?

No, however, there was one where he was transporting "sweating"
dynamite through the jungle.

http://www.dooyoo.co.uk/movie-dvd/sorcerer-dvd/1419993/

[Boy I am on the top of Google Robot list... I have to do the
CAPTCHA challenge-response test 5x to get in!]

The Analogue guy shelves —

Bernard Crossland
Explosive Welding of Metals and its Application
Clarendon Press 1982

JS Rihehart & J Pearson
Explosive Working of Metals
Macmillian 1963





Mr. Wizard - 23-5-2011 at 07:08

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
I seem to remember a Roy Scheider movie thriller in which he played a businessman involved in the explosion-welding industry, but I can't seem to find it on google . . .
Does anyone remember such a film?



"The Sorcerer" was a movie in which Scheider played a European exiled in search of money and a job. He and some other desperate people agree to transport some 'sweaty' dynamite in three different trucks through the jungle to extinguish an oil well fire. I enjoyed the movie.

hissingnoise - 23-5-2011 at 07:54

I believe that one was a re-make of the French classic; "The Wages of Fear" in which nitro was transported in tankers over rough terrain to deal with a misbehaving oil-well.
It really was a cracker - the remake, I'm told, a damp squib . . .
In the one I'm looking for I seem to remember Scheider striding across desert to a large flat-bed arrangement which was loaded with powder on a tray, roughly smoothed over.
The FX, IIRC were nothing 'special' to put it mildly!
Oh, well . . .



The WiZard is In - 23-5-2011 at 08:38

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
I believe that one was a re-make of the French classic; "The Wages of Fear" in which nitro was transported in tankers over rough terrain to deal with a misbehaving oil-well.
It really was a cracker - the remake, I'm told, a damp squib . . .
In the one I'm looking for I seem to remember Scheider striding across desert to a large flat-bed arrangement which was loaded with powder on a tray, roughly smoothed over.
The FX, IIRC were nothing 'special' to put it mildly!
Oh, well . . .

Filmography Roy Scheider
http://www.ranker.com/list/roy-scheider-movies-and-films-and...

---
Someone else (thinks they) remember it...

Remember the scene in the desert, when his company blows up
that enormous mess of stuff? That's exactly how they make metals
that can't weld to each other bond, like aluminum and steel. We
use bi-metal every days here. Basically, they take a mess of plastic
explosive in pellets and lay a smooth layer under the two plates
(which are clamped together). Then another mess of plastic, a
boatload of sandbacks for tamping, then simply stand back, and
twist the plunger. I heard we're talking a million pounds per square
inch to do this little trick.

http://community.combatsim.com/topic/16016-roy-scheider-pass...




Mr. Wizard - 23-5-2011 at 09:37

There was a TV show about 'how they make it' or something (?), and they were explosive welding metals. This case was welding stainless cladding on a structural stronger steel for corrosion resistant purposes. They did position the plates one above the other, but used metal spacers to hold the sheets apart prior to the blast. The sheets were buffed and cleaned, positioned with supporting spacers, which allowed the gas trapped between the plates to exit ahead of the compressing plates. The explosive was loose granules or powder raked with hand tools over the top plate. The explosion was initiated in one corner, as to allow the shock wave to 'sweep' across the plates. I imagine the effect was like a squeegee or roller pushing the plates together.

They then checked the plate for integrity and problems, before straightening it, trimming, and cleaning it up. It looked like a very artful process. They mentioned the idea came from WW1 when people noticed explosives had welded metal from artillery shells to armor.

hissingnoise - 23-5-2011 at 10:44

Thanks for that guys - after some looking, I'm now fairly sure it was 52Pick-up, in which case Gary Zink gets the raspberries for the abysmal FX!
Detasheet is being used successfully these days but VoD still needs fairly careful control.
The sculptress, Evelyn Rosenberg down in NM gets through reams of the stuff, I hear!

The WiZard is In - 23-5-2011 at 11:34

Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Wizard  
There was a TV show about 'how they make it' or something (?), and they were explosive welding metals.

I suffer from the belief this was done on The Myth Buster's also-
on not by.

The Analogue guy returns from his files. Found this which
is not what I was looking (I am still looking) for.



Boomtown-1.jpg - 876kB Boomtown-2.jpg - 1.1MB Boomtown-3.jpg - 989kB Boomtown-4.jpg - 1MB Boomtown-5.jpg - 1MB

hissingnoise - 23-5-2011 at 12:31

Quote:
Remember the scene in the desert, when his company blows up
that enormous mess of stuff?

But such a very tame deflagration WiZ?
One supposes, though, that improvements in that area, at that time, might have resulted in more Academy Awards being received posthumously :D!
On the plus side, CGI is now making long, visual strides . . .

[edit]
I will grudgingly admit that such pretty fireballs were spectacular in their day!



[Edited on 23-5-2011 by hissingnoise]

The WiZard is In - 23-5-2011 at 15:37

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  

The sculptress, Evelyn Rosenberg down in NM gets through reams of the stuff, I hear!


Somewhere in my files is a copy of this :—

Evelyn Rosenberg
She's an artist whose explosives make a lasting impression.
Smithsonian December 01, 1987

If I ever find it I may post it.

Her web site.
http://evelynrosenberg.com/artist.php?p=46

Byda - DuPont stopped producing Detasheet years ago.
There are substitutes.

Sodium!?

The WiZard is In - 6-8-2011 at 08:57

Buffalo, NY
Man seriously burned in workplace accident
Published:August 5, 2011, 12:00 AM
Updated: August 5, 2011, 6:49 AM

NIAGARA FALLS—An unidentified man was seriously burned following a
workplace accident at Tier Vessel on South Hyde Park Boulevard on
Thursday morning. The Occupational Safety and Health Administration is
investigating.

The man was burned just after 11 a. m. as he cleaned out railroad
tanker cars at the site, receiving sodium burns to his hands, knees,
back and arms, according to Niagara Falls Fire Department officials.

He was taken to Erie County Medical Center, Buffalo, to be treated.
His condition is unknown.

----
Not beyond the realm of possibility. Ullmann's sez —
Sodium is shipped in —

Rail tank cars with a capacity of 45 t sodium.
Road tank cars with a capacity of up to 20 t of sodium.

However, I suffer from a refusal to believe anyone would be sent into
one to clean it out!


An updated news story.

Worker burned at tank-cleaning facility in fair condition
Published:August 5, 2011, 9:38 AM
Updated: August 5, 2011, 1:29 PM

NIAGARA FALLS -- A worker who was burned Thursday at a
tank-cleaning facility on South Hyde Park Boulevard was in fair
condition today at Erie County Medical Center, company
officials said.

Fire officials said the employee at Tier New York LLC, whose
name was not released, was getting into a tank when a burst of
fire flashed over him. Co-workers pulled him out of the tank.

The man suffered second- and third-degree burns. The burns
were not chemical burns.

Tier New York spokeswoman Rhonda Prutzman said the tank
was the type that a tractor-trailer would haul and not a railroad
tanker as had been previously reported by fire officials. She
also said the tank was not carrying any hazardous materials.

"It was an empty tanker ready to be washed," Prutzman said.

The company is working with officials from the Occupational
Safety and Health Administration to determine what happened.


djh
"It was an empty tanker ready to be washed."
AKA - I didn't know the gun was loaded.