Sciencemadness Discussion Board

For sale: Lithium Aluminum Hydride 99% (pelletized)

stoichiometric_steve - 2-5-2010 at 00:12

25g: 60 EUR
50g: 100 EUR
100g: 180 EUR
200g: 350 EUR
500g: 650 EUR
1000g: 1200 EUR

Shipping everywhere via HAZMAT at buyers expense.

thereelstory - 2-5-2010 at 19:43

why is it so expensive?

Lambda-Eyde - 2-5-2010 at 22:25

It just is. SS is cheaper than both Fisher Scientific and Chiron in my country. The shipping costs is what puts me off. That and the fact that I can just drop by Chiron in Trondheim and pick up my order free of charge.

len2 - 3-5-2010 at 04:54

Hey, first you post a drugs related question, then you offer to sell LAH to anyone who cares blowing your cover. Either you're the DEA, or youve got a screw loose

chief - 3-5-2010 at 06:09

Aything _that_ expensive is probably somehow drug-related ...

I wonder what else could achieve some high prices on epay ... ...

JohnWW - 3-5-2010 at 11:06

The cost of the electricity used in reducing the Al firstly to the metal, and from there to hydride, would be a significant part of the price, together also with Li being a fairly rare metal requiring expen$ive extraction and purification procedures, and then reducing it also to the metal by electrolysis.

[Edited on 4-5-10 by JohnWW]

a_bab - 3-5-2010 at 12:02

Yeah, and let me know what amateur on Earth would need more than 50 grams for experimental purposes, let alone kilos of the stuff...

The price is given by the rarity. In Europe one can easily order 1 kilo of RP for something like 75 bucks. Now I wonder how much would some people in USA be willing to pay for it?

I feel like the times when ephedrine selling posts will start popping up are not very far. "Technical grade, from India"



Fucking dopeheads.

Nicodem - 3-5-2010 at 14:16

Please refrain from posting a bunch of stupidities before actually checking the prices of LiAlH4 in the catalogues of the chemical suppliers. The above prices are pretty much normal prices and not some drug-inflated prices. And LiAlH4 is not even something required to make any illegal drug - for some organic chemists this is quite a trivial reagent (though best to be avoided when possible as death by fire is one of the possible side effects of its use). It is bad enough that we have to tolerate such exchanges publicly, but even worse if they escalate in post whoring exhibitions. Use the U2U!

Polverone - 3-5-2010 at 14:17

Anyone can check the seller's posting history and decide whether or not they want to do business with him.

However, it is ridiculous to assume that buyers of this compound must be interested in making drugs, or that real amateurs would want only a small amount. It is a widely used reagent in professional labs. It is frequently unused by the amateur for reasons of availability and handling difficulties. However, it is the limited availability that makes larger purchases attractive when an amateur suddenly does have an opportunity to buy it. I have purchased far larger quantities of mercury, arsenic pentoxide, and ammonium perchlorate than I have any immediate need for simply because I was not confident I would be able to buy them later. I wanted to lock in a lifetime or at least multi-decade supply while I had a chance.

The ACS web site has tens of thousands of documents mentioning lithium aluminum hydride, and only a minute fraction of them would be of interest to clandestine drug manufacturers. Or, to compare it with some common chemicals more familiar to the amateur, it's referenced more often in ACS documents than aluminum chloride, sodium hypochlorite, and methyl ethyl ketone combined. Comparing it to an immediate precursor for a well known street drug is ridiculous.

len1 - 3-5-2010 at 16:32

I dont know whats your reason for writing this stuff. The chemicals you mention are not of interest in drug making, but anyone who checks the web can see LAH is. It is much too expensive to be used by large concerns

Panache - 3-5-2010 at 17:25

Quote: Originally posted by len1  
I dont know whats your reason for writing this stuff.


I would guess in an effort to point out peoples sterotyping and 'judgement without evidence' holier than thou crap that filled posts 2-6. It isn't that difficult to not be a bigot but people rarely even are aware when their offhanded comments contain pure nonsense.
SS is selling something, thats it, nothing else, why the slurs i have no idea. In civilised society one doesn't rush to judgements based on indirect evidence.

Trifluoroacetic - 3-5-2010 at 17:28

Quote: Originally posted by a_bab  
Yeah, and let me know what amateur on Earth would need more than 50 grams for experimental purposes, let alone kilos of the stuff...

The price is given by the rarity. In Europe one can easily order 1 kilo of RP for something like 75 bucks. Now I wonder how much would some people in USA be willing to pay for it?

I feel like the times when ephedrine selling posts will start popping up are not very far. "Technical grade, from India"

Fucking dopeheads.



I've seen RP go for over $500.0 in the US for 50-100 grms


[Edited on 4-5-2010 by Trifluoroacetic]

[Edited on 4-5-2010 by Trifluoroacetic]

Polverone - 3-5-2010 at 17:51

Earlier posts in this thread gave the impression that their authors' sole knowledge of the uses of LAH was that a Google search shows drug-site discussion about it in the first page of results.

LAH, like sodium or iodine, can be used to make drugs or a thousand other things, and is a very common laboratory reagent. It is not like ephedrine which has fairly limited non-drug uses in the laboratory. It has been in wide use for more than 60 years, to the extent that it has many more mentions in ACS literature than a common chemical like potassium permanganate. Of course nobody uses it on a plant scale if they can help it, due to price and inconvenience, but in education and research a lot of things are common that are completely uneconomical at plant scale.

zed - 3-5-2010 at 18:35

LALH4 has always been expensive. Expensive, and dangerous to handle.

Few illicit drugs, that are currently in vogue, require metal hydrides in their synthesis.

In almost every case, better and safer synthetic techniques have been developed, or the illicit drugs requiring hydride reductions, have been supplanted in popularity. Times change.

Since, the price is posted in Euros, I assume the seller is in Europe, and this is a legitimate offer to sell.

This may be problematic for you, if you are in the United States. As importing such a material could require a special permit.

Metal Hydrides are actually not very difficult to manufacture. In a pinch, you can make your own. If you avoid using Lithium, you can do so fairly economically.









[Edited on 4-5-2010 by zed]

len1 - 3-5-2010 at 18:42

Having verified that LAH is used to make drugs as I said, you decide the best responce is to feign the conculsion that thats the only thing I know about it? If only SM posters were as strong in chemistry as in personal attacks. Have fun.

As for making an aluminium hydride economically without lithium - please show then it would be a whole load more believable.


[Edited on 4-5-2010 by len1]

Polverone - 3-5-2010 at 20:06

Actually I was referring to the posts of chief and a_bab before my first in this thread. The "sniff test" for me is not whether something can be used to make drugs but if it is the predominant thing it can be used for. So I would not shut down any thread here offering sodium, iodine, or complex metal hydrides for sale: all have much broader uses than what erowid.org would suggest. But I would not leave open a thread offering ephedrine, n-phenethyl piperidone, or other chemicals that are prominently used in drug manufacture and rather little used in the laboratory otherwise.

len1 - 3-5-2010 at 20:23

I was not suggesting that anything be closed down. LAH is illegal to sell LAH here without a license, and in the UK due to similar jurisdictions it would be at least watched. So the whole thing looks rather bizzare.

zed - 4-5-2010 at 04:31

NaAlH4 can be produced rather easily if you have access to a high pressure reaction vessel. It is a fairly simple hydrogenation process. Such vessels can be purchased, sometimes, for only a few hundred dollars. Sauron, I, and others, discussed it here, within the last year or two.

NaBH4, which many profess to be stumped by, might also be produced easily. Without the use of Borane gases. Though I have never seen such a discussion on this board, I have seen references to such processes.









Reduce-Me - 4-5-2010 at 11:31

If you could point me into the direction of these references that would be swell.

Or at least humor me with your easy production process?

I'm curious to know.

len1 - 4-5-2010 at 12:51

Quote:
NaAlH4 can be produced rather easily


Quote:
Sauron, I, and others, discussed it here, within the last year or two.


Sorry, I meant produced, not discussed.

[Edited on 4-5-2010 by len1]

zed - 4-5-2010 at 13:12

Look it up. Better yet, send a u2u to Sauron. That, should get you the kind of response you truly deserve.

[Edited on 4-5-2010 by zed]

chief - 4-5-2010 at 14:30

25 g for 60 EUR ? Laughably expensive ...

==> Reminds me of when a lab-supply wanted to sell me 500 ml of 40% NaMnO4-solution for 90 bucks ... while elsewhere I could get the 20fold-amount of the same purity for that price ...

Li rare ? ?? It's one of the most abundant elements of them all ... ; how many g will be in a standard Li-battery ?? How much of the hydride will this give ?

Those prices may be standard these days ... but only because of not-enough competition ... and too much easy money in the institutions ... ... 1 kg for 1200 EUR :D thats 3 times the price of silver ...; and silver is money ... as they say ...

[Edited on 4-5-2010 by chief]

JohnWW - 4-5-2010 at 15:11

Quote: Originally posted by chief  
(cut) Li rare ? ?? It's one of the most abundant elements of them all ... ; how many g will be in a standard Li-battery? (cut)

Actually Li has a quite low cosmic abundance, despite its low atomic number of 3 and stable mass numbers of 6 and 7. While it is produced initially in fairly large quantities by fusion (probably mainly by fusion of He-4 and deuterons, skipping mass number 5 of which there are no stable isotopes) inside stars, especially mature stars, it tends to be either decomposed back to He or further fused into heavier elements such as Be-9, B-10 & 11, and C-12 & 13, in either subsequent fusion reactions or (when the core of a star with little remaining H or He collapses) in supernova explosions.

That is why Li (and also Be and B, noting that there are no stable isotopes with mass number 8, as well as 5) is so rare, especially compared to C, N, O, and to Na. The main sources on earth are the much less than 1 ppm in sea-water from the weathering of minerals over millions of years, certain salt deposits from the drying-up of old salt lakes such as in Chile (in which Li, and also F, have become concentrated due to Li halides and other salts being less soluble than Na/K/Rb/Cs and Mg salts), and a few rare siliceous minerals in granitic rocks such as lepidolite and spodumene.

I wonder, however, how plant and animal physiology might have developed if Li had been much more abundant than Na and K, instead of the other way around. Because of its small ionic size, Li+ cations diffuse through biological membranes much more easily than Na+.

[Edited on 4-5-10 by JohnWW]

Lambda-Eyde - 4-5-2010 at 15:12

Quote: Originally posted by Lambda-Eyde  
It just is. SS is cheaper than both Fisher Scientific and Chiron in my country. The shipping costs is what puts me off. That and the fact that I can just drop by Chiron in Trondheim and pick up my order free of charge.


I retract my statement. I looked up the prices in the Alfa Aesar and Acros Organics catalogs, and they offer the 97 % grade at roughly half the price.

a_bab - 4-5-2010 at 23:29

If I were an american, need it badly, and do an arrangement with SS to pack it like a "present", so nobody would be suspicious I'd go for a few kilos of it. God know what the profit may look like.

chief - 5-5-2010 at 00:28

After I looked it up I must say: It's much more rare than I thought ...
==> but still cheap as sh... : "Lithium Carbonate large contracts in March 09 $2.80/lb to $3.00/lb. " as this source says:
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article9722.html

not_important - 5-5-2010 at 02:39

Quote: Originally posted by chief  
25 g for 60 EUR ?
Li rare ? ?? It's one of the most abundant elements of them all ... ; how many g will be in a standard Li-battery ??


And that is a current concern - the demand for lithium for batteries of all sizes. Yes, you can extract it from seawater, but for considerably more expense that exiting sources. And you can mine certain rocks as sources of lithium, but the demand is such that the mountains of waste would be a problem.

If you want to make your fortune, devise a way to economically extract lithium from sea water before someone else does the same.

chief - 5-5-2010 at 03:37

Extract from seawater ? That reminds me on when everybody tried to extract the gold ...
==> ... lot's of gold in seawater, each km³ has 10 or more kg ... :D

==================

Anyhow as I posted above: Li2CO3 is at 5-6 $/kg, which is quite cheap ..., even when the masses of the carbon and oxygen are taken into account ... ...

Besides: Soemwhere I saw photos of how to get the Li-foil aout of fresh photo-batteries ...
==> Just can be slaughtered ... ; this gives elemental Li, that could be reacted with the Al and the H ...
==> ... so the above price can be beaten by the order of a magnitude or two ...; and 80% ofthe mass will be made up by the aluminum ...

[Edited on 5-5-2010 by chief]

a_bab - 5-5-2010 at 08:17

Well, I'm afraid there is very little Li in a battery. Under a gram for sure. That would boost Li alone at more then 1000 bucks/kg assuming a battery like this is around 1 dollar/piece (the real price being probably under 50 dollars/kg of elemental Li).

Then you have the difficulty of working with Li. It really is difficult, because it reacts with N so you have to use very dry Ar. Li fires are probably the worst (almost NOTHING will put off such a fire, except copper powder). It burns down thru stuff like azbestos and concrete.

Good luck beating the price.

After all this is just theory; most of us are just a bunch of home chemists. If I were to pay for my chems I'd be longtime broke with the current prices and I'm sure most of us are the same.

densest - 5-5-2010 at 14:32

Au in seawater: approximately 6x10-13 g/g
1 km^3 = 10^9 m^3 = 10^12 l = 10^15 cm^3
so Au/km^3 ~= 600g/km^3 - not even a kilogram!

Li is 10^5 times more abundant, so that's like 10 tons per km^3 or 100g per m^3.

If you search for "magnesium lithium brine composition" there are reports from this year of high lithium content brines:

Orocobre mining in Argentina:
Quote:
Extensive pit sampling on the Company’s Salinas Grandes properties show over approximately 12,000 hectares of salar nucleus:

- Lithium (Li) grades averaging1,409 mg/l Li (range from 541mg/l to a high of 4,237mg/l Li) and
- Potassium (K) grades averaging 16,394 mg/l potassium (range from 5,484 to a high of 49,720 mg/l K).
- The magnesium to lithium ratio is also very low with an average value of 2.6.


Coal mine brines, oil well brines, etc. are often much more concentrated than seawater and some have crystallized out halite (NaCl) so the relative abundance of rarer ions is greater. Also Rb is twice as abundant as Li and it's expensive, too, as are Br and I, all more abundant than Li, so a good comprehensive extraction scheme could be as simple as large open pans in a hot dry climate and careful attention towards fractional crystallization rates.

So are any members in North Africa, the dry part of Southern Asia, etc.? There have to be places where wells were drilled only to find salt water. A few small solar powered pumps, some plastic lined shallow pits, hydrometer or three, thermometers, and some shovels... chemistry the lazy man's way. The NaCl drops out first, then Ca, etc... K is quite salable for fertilizer, too. Getting some distilled fresh water out of the mess could water the garden & the workers ;)

entropy51 - 5-5-2010 at 15:17

Quote: Originally posted by Polverone  
LAH, like sodium or iodine, can be used to make drugs or a thousand other things, and is a very common laboratory reagent.

Quote: Originally posted by Nicodem  
And LiAlH4 is not even something required to make any illegal drug
I agree completely with Management.

However LAH is Watched. Just so you know.

len1 - 5-5-2010 at 17:00

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
Quote: Originally posted by Polverone  
LAH, like sodium or iodine, can be used to make drugs or a thousand other things, and is a very common laboratory reagent.

Quote: Originally posted by Nicodem  
And LiAlH4 is not even something required to make any illegal drug
I agree completely with Management.

However LAH is Watched. Just so you know.


Three contradictions in one post, plus a remark that the poster agrees with all of the. Good old SM

entropy51 - 5-5-2010 at 17:31

Yeah, Len1, we need more of that on SM!

Nicodem - 5-5-2010 at 23:23

Quote: Originally posted by len1  
Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
Quote: Originally posted by Polverone  
LAH, like sodium or iodine, can be used to make drugs or a thousand other things, and is a very common laboratory reagent.

Quote: Originally posted by Nicodem  
And LiAlH4 is not even something required to make any illegal drug
I agree completely with Management.

However LAH is Watched. Just so you know.


Three contradictions in one post, plus a remark that the poster agrees with all of the. Good old SM

It quite sad to see how low can you go. In order to get aggressive and abusive or whatever other state of mind gives you pleasure, you are ready to post all kind of stupidities. The worst is that you make it so terribly obvious that you are aware that what you post is nonsense. Surely, you are not trying to convince us that, as a native English speaker, you do not know the meaning of words "can" and "required"?
I'm pretty sure I'm much more competent when it comes to knowledge about what reagents are used in the synthesis of illegal drugs, as I read most there is to read. I can assure you that nobody sane of mind would use LiAlH4 for mass production of street drugs. I have yet to see one such example. I have not read forensic reports mentioning this reagent as something commonly used. There are some chemists who use this reagent for the reduction of certain amides and nitrostyrenes to obtain psychoactive tryptamines and phenylethylamines (there are plenty of examples in the literature), but they can buy it legally without much trouble. Beyond the few grams batches it becomes irrational to use it. Thus the "cooks" would avoid it because it could kill them, and then, why would they use it? It is not needed when there are plenty enough alternatives (safer and cheaper!).

[Edited on 6/5/2010 by Nicodem]

a_bab - 5-5-2010 at 23:34

Nicodem, do you realize that you've just publicly admited that you belong to the "*very* dope interested" home chemists class? Now, what's wrong with that?

Oh, and I'm sure you never thought about making money out of your knowledge. Nor did you try any drugs at all. And "Spun" must be one of your favorite movies.

Not to be wrongly understood, you know.

chief - 6-5-2010 at 03:55

I can't believe that in a chem-forum someone could have the idea to say Li were above 1000 $/kg ...

==> As I mentioned above the price for Li2CO3 is around 5$/kg ; 1 kg of Li2CO3 contains 93.93 g Li ...
==> those 93.93 g of Li give 513.649 g of LiAlH4 ...

So 1 lb of LiAlH4 costs 5$ in material, and some production-efforts ...

================

Production is not too hard either:

4 LiH + AlCl3 ==> LiAlH4 + 3 LiCl



[Edited on 6-5-2010 by chief]

len1 - 6-5-2010 at 04:16

Quote:

And LiAlH4 is not even something required to make any illegal drug


I interpreted that sentence in the only way to make it actually contain some useful meaning. That is 'required' meaning 'of use'. As such it contradicts Polverone's statement, as well as the fact that its illegal to sell in many coutries and is watched.

If you meant it in the narrow sense 'required' = essential, then your sentence is empty - it applies to every chemical apart from the elements

[Edited on 6-5-2010 by len1]

zed - 6-5-2010 at 13:04

"For sale: Lithium Aluminum Hydride 99% (pelletized)


25g: 60 EUR
50g: 100 EUR
100g: 180 EUR
200g: 350 EUR
500g: 650 EUR
1000g: 1200 EUR

Shipping everywhere via HAZMAT at buyers expense."


Looks like a straightforward offer to sell. Have questions about "local" legality of purchase and importation? Try a U2U to the seller.

stoichiometric_steve - 6-5-2010 at 15:55

Quote: Originally posted by zed  

Looks like a straightforward offer to sell. Have questions about "local" legality of purchase and importation? Try a U2U to the seller.


Nuff said.

The price is quite reasonable, as this is not the "95% powder" quality also offered by Alfa, Acros etc. but purely white pellets. Anyone got a problem with that? Tell your momma...

anotheronebitesthedust - 7-5-2010 at 01:34

Quote:

its illegal to sell in many coutries and is watched.
Before you start posting bullshit why don't you try backing up your statements with verifiable facts. Telling us which countries have laws against LAH would be a nice start not to mention helpful and informative.

chief - 7-5-2010 at 02:59

Quote: Originally posted by stoichiometric_steve  
Quote: Originally posted by zed  

Looks like a straightforward offer to sell. Have questions about "local" legality of purchase and importation? Try a U2U to the seller.


Nuff said.

The price is quite reasonable, as this is not the "95% powder" quality also offered by Alfa, Acros etc. but purely white pellets. Anyone got a problem with that? Tell your momma...


Price is not reasonable: You go to you "momma" ...

1 kg has a cost of 10 $ for the Li and a few bucks more for the reacting with Al and H ...

==> Whoever pays 1200 for it ruins the prices for everyone else ...

======================

Of course it would be completely legal to burn even 1 000 000 $, in some fire ... ...
==> ... but it would not be called "reasonable" ...

[Edited on 7-5-2010 by chief]

DJF90 - 7-5-2010 at 03:10

Chief: I think you may be underestimating the price of lithium quite significantly... where I am, a standard ingot (117g I think) costs about £60; bear in mind that 4LiH + AlCl3 => LiAlH4 + 3LiCl; so you'd need at least 4x this much lithium. Add to that the cost of electricity/gas to heat the reaction 2Li + H2 => 2LiH, and then the same for 4Al + 6Cl2 => 4AlCl3, and then getting the crude product to 99% pelletised (I suspect several recrystallisations from glyme/diglyme and inert atmosphere of course... Its an expensive process for an expensive but valuable chemical. Of course the price is not quite £1200/kg to make it, but there has to be some profit margin to make it worthwhile for the chemical companys.

If you don't like the price, go make your own kilo of LAH for less. Its slightly more expensive than what I've seen before, but as steve mentions it's 99% pelletised; this means purer than the other commercial stuff, and much easier handling (much less pyrophoric dust kicking about!)

[Edited on 7-5-2010 by DJF90]

chief - 7-5-2010 at 03:28

Quote: Originally posted by DJF90  
Chief: I think you may be underestimating the price of lithium quite significantly... where I am, a standard ingot (117g I think) costs about £60; bear in mind that 4LiH + AlCl3 => LiAlH4 + 3LiCl; so you'd need at least 4x this much lithium. Add to that the cost of electricity/gas to heat the reaction 2Li + H2 => 2LiH, and then the same for 4Al + 6Cl2 => 4AlCl3, and then getting the crude product to 99% pelletised (I suspect several recrystallisations from glyme/diglyme and inert atmosphere of course... Its an expensive process for an expensive but valuable chemical. Of course the price is not quite £1200/kg to make it, but there has to be some profit margin to make it worthwhile for the chemical companys.

If you don't like the price, go make your own kilo of LAH for less. Its slightly more expensive than what I've seen before, but as steve mentions it's 99% pelletised; this means purer than the other commercial stuff, and much easier handling (much less pyrophoric dust kicking about!)

[Edited on 7-5-2010 by DJF90]


Maybe the reaction gives 1 mole of the LiAlH4 and 3 of LiCl; but still there would be the Li in the Cloride left ...

The price of 10$/kg for Li I calculated from the carbonate-price, see here : http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article9722.html ...; it's _that_ cheap ... !

Besides: If 1 kg of Li could store electricity for the price of 1200 $, then this would be the second densest form of energy-storage, only superseeded by nucler fuels ... :D

117g for 60$: That's approx. the price of silver, not something as abundant as Li ...

[Edited on 7-5-2010 by chief]

DJF90 - 7-5-2010 at 03:31

Even if the carbonate costs you $10/kg for the mass of Li it contains, that in NO WAY represents the actual cost of extraction of the Lithium, especially 10kgs worth! Think how many moles that is, and then how many faradays you'd need (assuming that you have 100% current efficiency, which will be far from the truth) and then you'll see how much you're electricity bill will cost. Not a pretty sight I'm sure. And even if you can recover the Li from the lithium chloride byproduct, this involves further electrolysis and thus more incurred cost!

chief - 7-5-2010 at 05:09

@DJF90: Why don't you just calculate it ?
==> 1 lb of carbonate costs 2.80-3.50 $ ... ; there you go, result will be the same as mine ...

That's the nice thing in science: Numbers rule ... :D

DJF90 - 7-5-2010 at 06:01

You're still massively underestimating costs and effort... otherwise if it were so cheap and easy to do everyone would have done it by now eh? so until you show that a kilo can be made for a little under $20 I think I'll stick with steve!

chief - 7-5-2010 at 06:38

No, _you_ overestimate production-costs:

==>Take Li2CO3 (2.80$/lb), react it to the chloride
==> melt this at 615 [Cels] and electrolyze the melt, plenty of literature out there, standard-way ...

There you have the Li ... :D

Faraday-constant is approx. 95000 As/mol; 1 mol of Li is 6.94 g, so 1 kg is 144 mole ... == 1.3686788e7 As

Those 1.3686788e7 As might have to be delivered at 4 or 5 Volts ... which makes 6.8433944e7 Ws OR 19 kWh ...

So the price of 1 kg Li is 10 $ + the cost of 19 kWh ...
==> Thereby maybe 12-15 $, depending on the tarif ...

=================

But: You don't even need 1 kg of Li for 1 kg of LiAlH4; 1 kg of Li is sufficient for the manufacture of 5.468 kg LiAlH4 :D

Now that reduces the price to below 10 $/kg ... right ?


[Edited on 7-5-2010 by chief]

Polverone - 7-5-2010 at 09:26

If you think LAH is priced unfairly, you should see the markup on paclitaxel! Made only of H, C, N, and O but those gangsters at Aldrich want $29 for 1 mg. I think if you make it starting from water, air, and coal you can bypass their outrageous price gouging.

a_bab - 7-5-2010 at 11:19

Hmmm, I always wondered how comes raw sodium is like 100 dollars/pound and yet there are plenty around willing to buy it. Stupid them, salt it's under 1 dollar/kg :P

Unless you try to PRODUCE something as len suggested, you are talking out of your arse.

chief - 7-5-2010 at 14:32

Quote: Originally posted by Polverone  
If you think LAH is priced unfairly, you should see the markup on paclitaxel! Made only of H, C, N, and O but those gangsters at Aldrich want $29 for 1 mg. I think if you make it starting from water, air, and coal you can bypass their outrageous price gouging.


Thats no adequate comparison: LiAlH4 is a simple stuff, can be made by few steps ...

100 $ per kg sodium ?
==> Who wants some ? I provide it ... ; but first I'm gonna check legislation ... : Would it be allowed to sell it ...; how to transport it etc. ...

Anyone willing to buy the LiAlH4 for 250/kg ?

stoichiometric_steve - 8-5-2010 at 00:44

i dont understand the point of this discussion. i made an offer to sell, not an offer to join in on useless bullshit shiznit arsefuck idiot complaints. if you dont like the price, dont buy it! i'm not gonna make it any cheaper because any of you think it's worth less than stated. guess what: 500g will be gone in a week.

chief - 8-5-2010 at 04:04

_Now_ I understand: Didn't get that the offer came from someone here ... :o
==> _then_ it must be a reasonable price, of course ... :D

Please forgive me, steve, and tell me when youre finished selling, so I don't ruin your busines by providing my cheaper version too soon ... :D:D:D

entropy51 - 8-5-2010 at 06:11

Quote: Originally posted by stoichiometric_steve  
i made an offer to sell, not an offer to join in on useless bullshit shiznit arsefuck idiot complaints
Sorry, Steve, you're on the wrong forum then.

chief - 8-5-2010 at 06:12

I have looked up the synthesis:
==> Easy for me ... :D

Who wants some ?

peach - 8-5-2010 at 14:58

I'm pretty sure the material in question is watched by certain authorities. Or at best, it's presence not appreciated. Particularly in kilo quantities.

I also expect those authorities may be quite upset to find it in some hands. So upset, they are likely to pursue any packaging or delivery receipts bearing the name of the person who sent it. For instance, those on a hazmat receipt declaring it's contents as it's shipped to everywhere.

That or they'll simply demand the origin from the person holding it, via methods that should be fairly obvious given one of it's potential uses.

Maybe they'll even find out which website those individuals bought their kilo through.

I can think of one individual who used to routinely post a very similar chemical out and he provides a particularly striking example of some glaring errors in ways of thinking about chemicals like these; which you yourselves are now demonstrating with your 'but it can also be used for x' mentality. I know you don't like people discussing that kind of thing here, but I'm sure Steve knows what I'm talking about, given his post on 3-Phenyl-1-propanol.

Keep in mind what this striking individual was discussing in online forums and what he was posting out, in kilo quantities, whilst not asking for any identification.

Consult Shulgin for those doubting it's uses in these areas. In fact, I believe Shulgin preferred it over the now most definitely watched alternative.

I find it a curious personality that would ship out kilos of this material to people without requesting any identification, given the uses they're likely to put it to, and yet still be concerned with regards to the hazmat codes. Particularly so, given the amount of trouble he could get in that has nothing to do with those codes.

Personally, I'd delete this thread. Sell the material locally to someone who's intentions you can be more sure of. You shouldn't have bought it, or that much, in the first place.

If only there was a beginners Reagent forum, Nicodem could move the thread there... right Nikky? ;) So much of the thinking on this IS beginner level.

Here's some relevant reading for Steve in particular;

politechbot.com/docs/forrester.alba.dea.key.logger.070907.pdf

And boy am I feeling generous, something to watch as well;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxk8tRBp1mU

Be careful Steve

[Edited on 9-5-2010 by peach]

entropy51 - 8-5-2010 at 16:15

For anyone who thinks LAH isn't watched, I know of a legitimate fine chemicals company that ordered much more LAH than they had ever ordered in the past. They were paid a friendly social visit by extremely polite, extremely well-dressed gentlemen who went through chemist's notebooks, billing records, and UPS shipping records. You are welcome to believe that this was an abberation, but I've heard that it happens every so often.

Most chemicals pose no problems, but a few do trigger an investigation.

peach - 8-5-2010 at 16:21

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
For anyone who thinks LAH isn't watched, I know of a legitimate fine chemicals company that ordered much more LAH than they had ever ordered in the past. They were paid a friendly social visit by extremely polite, extremely well-dressed gentlemen who went through chemist's notebooks, billing records, and UPS shipping records. You are welcome to believe that this was an abberation, but I've heard that it happens every so often.

Most chemicals pose no problems, but a few do trigger an investigation.


Could be why the protagonist of our thread is currently trying to get rid of it all. Or worse, he's trying to make money out of it.

It may end up like those TV auction channels;

"Okay... wow... I mean just WOW. Wooo! I've never seen anything like this before guys! I... I... I'm just speechless. You guys are just not going to be believe this... you're not only going to get your kilo... FOR FREE... yeah we all know about that, that's standard, everyone gives you that... but you'll also get... get this... a fine ball point pen, moderately run down. AND! AND! 100 euros to run as fast as the wind and never mention my name again"

Steve, if they track you from the supplier that gave you that quantity of material, they'll be very curious as to where it's all spontaneously disappeared to.

If you only bought it recently, I would suggest you empty your house of anything related to the less well received uses of this chemical and start trying to remember why it was you bought it in the first place. Now.

I will provide some advice that may be of interest. The authorities will assume the quantity of illegal drugs that have been produced on the basis of how much material is missing from the containers or order sheets. So your best bet is to have the container sat on the kitchen table, full and sealed. Not hidden and half empty.

If you've had it for years, it's very unlikely to happen. But shipping it out is still a stupid idea.

I'm trying to help you.

I'm honestly kind of wondering why after the response I got to my own thread. But anyway...

[Edited on 9-5-2010 by peach]

JohnWW - 8-5-2010 at 20:27

But WHAT illegal drug(s) can LiAlH4 (generally used to reduce carboxylic acids and ketones and aldehydes to alcohols), or similar hydride compounds like LiH, NaH, CaH2, NaGaH4 (same use as LiAlH4 but even stronger), NaBH4 (reduces aldehydes and ketones to alcohols, but does not reduce double C=C bonds, also used for hydroboration), be used to make, economically and efficiently? No-one on this thread seems to have any idea. They just might be usable for one or two individual steps in the total syntheses of naturally-occurring drugs, which are always far more costly than extracting the natural substances from plants.

anotheronebitesthedust - 8-5-2010 at 23:19

Quote:
So the price of 1 kg Li is 10 $ + the cost of 19 kWh ...==> Thereby maybe 12-15 $, depending on the tarif
Plus the cost of Qualified Lab Technicians.
Plus the cost of Transportation and Hazmat Shipping.
Plus the cost of Taxes and Government Levies
Plus the cost of Equipment.
Plus the cost of Safety.
If it was so cheap to make then a legit supplier like Alfa wouldn't be charging $671/kg for 97% powder and $1142/kg for 97% pellets. Also even purchasing from a cheap company in China isn't always economical. I recently imported Sodium Borohydride and my customs brokerage charges came to over $1000.
Quote:
Anyone willing to buy the LiAlH4 for 250/kg?
Not from you. I'd rather pay $671/kg from a reputable company.
Quote:
They were paid a friendly social visit by extremely polite, extremely well-dressed gentlemen who went through chemist's notebooks, billing records, and UPS shipping records.
I've been supplying chemicals to hobbyists for 15 years and when the Government knocks on my door I simply don't answer. If they want to go through my records they'll need a search warrant for that.
Quote:

Or worse, he's trying to make money out of it.
Duh, ya think? lol
Quote:

The authorities will assume the quantity of illegal drugs that have been produced on the basis of how much material is missing from the containers or order sheets.
Are you retarded? He's selling a legal chemical. It's not illegal to buy or sell. Period. You can post nonsense all you like but this is the bottom line.
Quote:

I'm trying to help you.
I'm sure if Steve wants advice from a 12 year old he can post a request at askkids.com

chief - 9-5-2010 at 02:06

Might "anotheronebitesinthedust" be a second account of "steve" ? :D

... trying to set up a mentality of spending 671 $ or even 1000 $ for a chemical if it comes from "reputable companies" or himself ?
:o:D:D :mad::D:D

@anotherone... : You paid 1000$ for NaBH4 ?? That stuff is made by the kilotons annually ...
==> besides it can be synthesized "by the action of NaH on powdered borosilicate glass", see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_borohydride

len2 - 9-5-2010 at 03:28

Quote:

I've been supplying chemicals to hobbyists for 15 years and when the Government knocks on my door I simply don't answer.


Thats a peach!
Quote: Originally posted by chief  
Might "anotheronebitesinthedust" be a second account of "steve" ? :D



Come to think of it that is a far better fit. The only unanswered question is 'who's biting'?



[Edited on 9-5-2010 by len2]

entropy51 - 9-5-2010 at 08:25

Quote: Originally posted by JohnWW  
But WHAT illegal drug(s) can LiAlH4 (generally used to reduce carboxylic acids and ketones and aldehydes to alcohols), or similar hydride compounds like LiH, NaH, CaH2, NaGaH4 (same use as LiAlH4 but even stronger), NaBH4 (reduces aldehydes and ketones to alcohols, but does not reduce double C=C bonds, also used for hydroboration), be used to make, economically and efficiently? No-one on this thread seems to have any idea.
Just because no one spells it out doesn't mean nobody knows. Consult Shulgin's book if you can't figure it out on your own.

peach - 10-5-2010 at 04:56

Quote:

Are you retarded? He's selling a legal chemical. It's not illegal to buy or sell. Period. You can post nonsense all you like but this is the bottom line.


Maybe, but you clearly don't understand what you're talking about. "But, but, but... it's not illegal and I can use that kilo for legal things officer!" :D

And given,
Quote:
I'm sure if Steve wants advice from a 12 year old he can post a request at askkids.com


I won't be supplying the reasons for why you're wrong.

Simply, there are other people who've taken a similar attitude to these kinds of chemicals. Attitudes they thought were correct due to the length of time they held them for. And posted their experiences on the internet.

And they're in jail. ;)

You have a horrendously poor attitude towards people trying to provide some subtle help. Particularly so given that your "it's not illegal" statement demonstrates you don't understand how the law works when it comes to things like this.

Your hands aren't illegal either. Going into a bank with one under your jacket is.

As for your chat about how long you've been doing it for, did that include the online, anonymous distribution of kilogram quantities of a chemical that will almost certainly end up being used in Schedule 1 drug labs? If not, that warrant will be on it's way when you do.

Even if the answer is yes, the authorities won't put up with you forever. They specifically don't ask for a warrant immediately, instead they wait for the correct moment to ask for the warrant; even if they know illegal activity is taking place in the meantime, that is within their remit. That defining moment could be, for example, when they discover you've moved up to kilo quantities of the more questionable materials and that you're shipping it 'everywhere' as opposed to just locally. The fact you've already been visited is the beginning of the story I posted a link to, a friendly visit; first. If you're turning them away, they're going to get upset about that. They're likely to have upgraded you from someone they just wanted to talk to, to a watched status. And you've probably lost your opportunity to explain what you're doing.

This forum contains some particularly worrying, some might even say hypercritical, personalities and morals. I'll be polite and excuse that as exposure.

[Edited on 10-5-2010 by peach]

chief - 10-5-2010 at 05:30

Anyhow it might be interesting, how far one can go supplying chemicals ...
==> It certainly should not be punishable to just sell the substance ... , as long as tha age of the buyers is checked to be above 21 or 18 ..., and as long as the chemicals are not specially forbidden to ber traded ...

peach - 10-5-2010 at 05:34

Quote: Originally posted by chief  
Anyhow it might be interesting, how far one can go supplying chemicals ...
==> It certainly should not be punishable to just sell the substance ... , as long as tha age of the buyers is checked to be above 21 or 18 ..., and as long as the chemicals are not specially forbidden to ber traded ...


Wrong. ;)

If the authorities can demonstrate intent to supply a criminal activity, that makes you a co-conspirator, and equally worthy of punishment. Indeed, I believe some of the suppliers have actually received a longer jail sentence than the people they were supplying.

Alrich would be considered a co-conspirator, and those responsible sent to jail, if the authorities could demonstrate they knew the potential for illegal use of their products (which they most certainly do, as does Steve) and hadn't taken the appropriate, stringent precautions to prevent them being used for such (hence the incredible level of caution they take in handing out accounts and chemicals, which Steve is not doing).

Given the nature of some of Steve's recent posts, he would be considered a co-conspirator, since he obviously knows what this chemical is likely to be used for and is taking no precautions to prevent it being used for those purposes.

They'd be happier with him posting it to a 5 year old than the kind of people they'll suspect he knows it's going to.

READ THE LAW!

BEYOND WHICH CHEMICALS ARE LEGAL AND WHICH AREN'T!

If Steve is 'that other guy', he needs to immediately ditch the shitty attitude and start paying some attention.

Hopefully, he hasn't dared to suggest the illegal uses of that chemical anywhere on any forum, even under a different name. Now that would put him loose footing!

Another interesting fact is that if they discover Steve has acquired that material by falsifying details, in any manner, he will also be accused of diverting the course of justice; for that alone.

This thread is worse than the guys asking how to cook along. At least they're doing small scale work. This is large scale distribution.

[Edited on 10-5-2010 by peach]

stoichiometric_steve - 10-5-2010 at 06:08

To make a long story short, and to cut out the crap, where I COME FROM, LAH is completely legal to sell to private individuals at ANY given amount. "Trouble" comes in if the buyer is not a local one, but there are couriers which will happily provide shipping for correctly labeled parcel.

And, one thing to remember for the assholes whose attempts in trying to make my offer look bad totally fail: The stock i am selling was the property of a now deceased friend, may he rest in peace.

Show some respect and shut the fuck up

peach - 10-5-2010 at 06:10

Quote: Originally posted by stoichiometric_steve  
To make a long story short, and to cut out the crap, where I COME FROM, LAH is completely legal to sell to private individuals at ANY given amount. "Trouble" comes in if the buyer is not a local one, but there are couriers which will happily provide shipping for correctly labeled parcel.

And, one thing to remember for the assholes whose attempts in trying to make my offer look bad totally fail: The stock i am selling was the property of a now deceased friend, may he rest in peace.

Show some respect and shut the fuck up


Quote:

Your hands aren't illegal either. Going into a bank with one under your jacket is.


I hope your friend wasn't running 'one of those labs'. Along with investigating your own uses and reasons for possessing it, and those of the people it's being supplied to, they'll be unhappy if they discover it originated at those sources. They will investigate the uses it was being put to or is intended for all along it's path through the hands touching it, emphatically so; no one involved in such a chain is immune. If it came from such a lab, you're not only in possession of goods bought through criminal activity, you're redistributing them. Another crime, all on it's own.

Regardless of your real intentions Steve, you know the probable uses of this chemical; particularly at the kilo level. And you're not being careful enough of who you're supplying it to. Metaphorically, your perfectly legal hand is under your jacket. People get shot for having their hand under their jacket.

Assumed intent can be far more dangerous than the reality.

[Edited on 10-5-2010 by peach]

stoichiometric_steve - 10-5-2010 at 06:53

Quote: Originally posted by stoichiometric_steve  
25g: 60 EUR
50g: 100 EUR
100g: 180 EUR
200g: 350 EUR
500g: 650 EUR
1000g: 1200 EUR

Shipping everywhere via HAZMAT at buyers expense.


Let me revise that, then:

Buyers must present valid ID, SSN, Passport, analysis of 24 hour collective urine void, children's diary and buttcrack swipe.

peach - 10-5-2010 at 06:56

Quote:

Buyers must present valid ID, SSN, Passport, analysis of 24 hour collective urine void, children's diary and buttcrack swipe.


A valid VAT code would be far more effective and is one of the first, very simple to perform, checks the more careful suppliers engage in.

Yes, that'll severely limit the number of people who can buy it. But it's also one of the precautions they insist upon with chemicals like this; and one of the few that'll come close to excusing you when it eventually hits the fan, which it probably will given the chemical, probable uses, quantities and method of distribution involved.

Lacking VAT codes and all the other more solid forms of defense, I would strongly recommend you first have buyers send you a real world paper, dated, signed declaration of their intentions; detailing their exact intended uses for the chemical. And I do mean exact in the sense of an intended substrate and product, why they need to use your material and can't use another, what the product of the workup will be used for and preferably some form of dated and signed proof that they actually have the substrate to hand, along with dated and signed proof of the quantity they're in possession of (like an order sheet); not generalized mechanisms. The quantity of substrate they possess, or have been invoiced for, should match up to the quantity of material they're purchasing. Excuses like 'a fragrance' for the intended result of the workup won't hold water in a court. Neither will anything to do with 'novel medicines', as they'll undoubtedly be lacking any medically credible methods to biochemically test their results; ask for dated and signed evidence if they claim they do have these to hand. Pay extreme attention to the analogs act, it's scope is routinely underestimated. Also have them date and sign to an agreement that the chemical won't be used for anything remotely illegal, be used to circumnavigate the analog acts or any other laws or be redistributed. Have them date and sign to the fact that they don't have any form of criminal record, particularly regarding the diversion of the course of justice or the manufacture or handling of illegal drugs or analogs. Make sure they date and sign to a statement confirming what they're telling you is fact. That they confirm they are of sound body and mind at the time of signing, and that they're not being forced to purchase the material by anyone else. Have them confirm that they're legally capable of ordering the material where they live. These are all tricks they'll use to place the blame back on yourself.

Go a step further and inform them of the legal implications of what they're purchasing, that simply ordering or having possession of the chemical may be suspected of illegal activity, and suggest that they seek professional legal advice before placing an order. Have them confirm that they are aware of the legal implications of ordering and possessing the chemical.

Personally, I'd put each statement on it's own line and have them date and sign each line so there can be no excuses about them having misread the agreement.

I'd also ask for a dated and signed photocopy of their (in date) passport, yes. Some form of dated and signed proof of occupancy at the delivery address would be good as well, like a recent gas bill. Make sure all the signatures are identical. People with genuinely legal intentions will be happy to provide these details, and they're not hard to collect. It requires a minute or two at a photocopier, a few seconds with a pen, an envelope and a stamp.

Make sure to file away these declarations, agreements and forms of evidence for use at a later date, you may find yourself depending on them to keep you out of jail; regardless of your true intentions. I'd recommend holding onto them for a year or two.

In the eyes of the law, these checks are entirely your responsibility to be fulfilling given the probable uses of the chemical.

Immediately cease all forms of distribution and start again once you've typed up an agreement for them to sign and have the dated and signed copies, including the forms of evidence and declarations of intent, in your hands.

The laws and personalities involved with chemicals like this have very little interest in fact. They treat it as an advantage. The fundations of their functioning are based heavily on assumed intent.

There, can't say I'm not trying to help now! No point going to jail for the sake of some bits of paper. ;)

I'm getting the feeling you're not taking this as seriously as it needs to be taken and that you don't understand the law as well as you think.

You're walking along a razor thin edge by being involved with this stuff in anyway, with a very long drop on either side. If you don't want to listen to me, okay. To each their own. My words will be ringing in your ears if it ever comes to what it may.

I suspect at least some of the advice I've given in this thread may be news to more than a few of you; even some those who consider themselves above my 'beginner' self. I routinely see some of you making equally incorrect assumptions about the legality of what you're doing; even the moderators. Seemingly inert analogs of illegal chemicals or the assumption that something won't be, or will be difficult to, put to illegal use are not guaranteed forms of immunity. Especially so when you have no genuine, legal excuse for being interested in them and no genuine means of testing your ideas. I hope it's not below you to accept some of my advice, as you'd usually have to pay a lot for it; with the ultimate price being your freedom.

[Edited on 10-5-2010 by peach]

a_bab - 10-5-2010 at 10:55

Some pople simply don't understand that even if it may be legal (actually not specifically forbiden) to posess/use a certain chem, selling it to a country where this is a no no WILL put you in lots of trouble, especially in countries from the EU. This is even more so in the light of the recent events. Even getting some silly chems like potassium nitrate which has no restrictions will ask for trouble, if the seller also sells iodine and RP. Just read the stories.

That's what the Interpol is meant to do eventually: to bust your unlawfull ass no matter where you are.

Then, there's the moral issue of selling a chem that *may* have an illicit use. It may be just me, stupid me - I don't know, but I'd have lots of problems selling things that could even remotely be used in a drug manufacturing activity.

watson.fawkes - 10-5-2010 at 14:47

Quote: Originally posted by peach  
If the authorities can demonstrate intent to supply a criminal activity, that makes you a co-conspirator, and equally worthy of punishment. Indeed, I believe some of the suppliers have actually received a longer jail sentence than the people they were supplying.

Alrich would be considered a co-conspirator, and those responsible sent to jail, if the authorities could demonstrate they knew the potential for illegal use of their products (which they most certainly do, as does Steve) and hadn't taken the appropriate, stringent precautions to prevent them being used for such (hence the incredible level of caution they take in handing out accounts and chemicals, which Steve is not doing).
There are (at least) two misconceptions about conspiracy as a legal term here. In most jurisdictions in the USA, the standard for conspiracy requires both actual knowledge of a criminal plot and specific action toward it. "Intent to supply a criminal activity" is not itself conspiracy; you actually have to act on that intent and do some supplying. For example, blowhard boasts made at a bar that, say, "I could get you that" are not conspiracy until you act on getting them that. (Final delivery not required.)

The second misconception is that knowledge of "potential" is sufficient for conspiracy; it's not. You need actual knowledge of wrongdoing, not merely the potential for it. To illustrate, gun sellers aren't liable for the crimes that could "potentially" be committed with the weapons they sell, much less be part of a conspiracy. And both these arguments have been attempted in civil cases.

There are, however, other standards of care that can be made separately illegal in specific cases. Chemicals and drugs sometime receive such treatment. Typically, though, the standard of "strict liability" doesn't apply (scheduled drugs being a notable exception). There's a standard of "reckless disregard" that's sometime used. But whatever it is, it's not conspiracy as such, because that's already defined. Such statutes are, of course, specific to the jurisdiction where passed. In the USA, there's a patchwork of them. Any statement about these can't be a blanket one, and requires statutory citation for reasonable discussion.

And I'd be rather interest in the citation for the supposed case where a supplier got the larger sentence. And without the sentencing decision being reported, it will be difficult to draw any general conclusion about it.

zed - 10-5-2010 at 18:07

Based on my college-chem-storeroom experiences, I can state that there are advantages to dealing with small suppliers. Mostly, lightning-fast service, good products, and instant resolution of complaints.

Some of the posters here, seem to be legitimate chemical suppliers. They are the owners of small businesses, and they are quite cognizant of pertinent regulations.

Lots of professional scientists and college professors on the board too. Legitimate purchasers.

No doubt, there are a few law enforcement folks and a few "Clandestine" chemists that are posting here also.

This endless wrangling over a seemingly legitimate offer to sell what is generally considered a legal material, is uncalled for.

If you have questions, U2U the seller and find out if you can legally purchase this material and have it shipped into your jurisdiction. Contact local authorities for confirmation. Simple.

It's a big world, full of all kinds of different people. Some locales, allow the buying and selling of almost anything. Some people, regardless of location, possess permits which allow them to purchase or sell, almost anything.

Me? I assume the seller knows what he is doing, and he will eschew illegality.










stoichiometric_steve - 10-5-2010 at 22:35

Quote: Originally posted by zed  
I assume the seller knows what he is doing, and he will eschew illegality.


AMEN

Panache - 11-5-2010 at 02:46

i think we can whine back and forth for another couple of pages, come everyone make this simple post regarding sale of something very unremarkable turn into the most ridiculous discussion yet witnessed on this fine forum.
Chief i think you overestimate the cost of Li
SS i think you are a plutonium seller
Peach i think Jesus is calling and wants you to kneel for awhile
LOL:D:D:D:D

And no offence intended.

stoichiometric_steve - 11-5-2010 at 03:38

I do not currently offer Plutonium, but who knows what time brings.

JohnWW - 11-5-2010 at 07:32

The importation of plutonium is absolutely banned in my country. Ships carrying the stuff, in the form of spent nuclear power station fuel rods from Europe being sent to Japan for reprocessing, are prohibited from passing through New Zealand territorial or exclusive economic zone waters.

anotheronebitesthedust - 11-5-2010 at 12:11

Being paranoid of the police says a lot about someone.

If anyone is worried about whether they are committing a crime or not, consult a lawyer. A real lawyer.

hissingnoise - 11-5-2010 at 13:27

Quote:
Being paranoid of the police says a lot about someone.

Like they've reached the age at which they can think for themselve's?