alcohol free beer

If beer would have no alcohol, then it wouldn't be beer

sounds as refreshing as a water free shower

Quote: Originally posted by mr.crow

It sounds like the OP is looking for beer he is allowed to drink for Muslim reasons. I looked on google and there is an Egyptian company called Al Ahram Beverages Company that makes non-alcoholic beer, that should be halal enough.

Quote: Originally posted by bquirky

sounds as refreshing as a water free shower

not every water shower is refreshing



[Edited on 26-10-2010 by aeacfm]

You need to drink a lot of ethanol to feel it, at which point you have been "poisoned". One beer will have ~17mL of ethanol in it, and you could easily drink over 100mL of EtOH in a night and the liver will take care of it nicely. Depending on your heritage of course, my liver was evolved in Scotland and Eastern Europe

I did another google search and Islam prohibits being intoxicated and therefore intoxicating substances even in moderation.

I claim that alcohol free beer is not intoxicating so it will be OK to drink. I'm sure you can find an Imam that will agree with this.

Just like how Aspartame has methanol in it but is non-toxic, or how poppy seed bagels have morphine in them. Decaff coffee has caffiene but won't get you wired, etc.

As a previous post noted, even grapes have some alcohol, as does bread.
I won't get into the differences between consuming trace amounts of alcohol, and 100% alcohol free vegetable products, if there is such a thing.

It appears you won't be drinking any beer.

I wonder if vegetarians worry about bugs and bacteria in their food?

You've got more alcohol in your body than is made by fermentation of 'zero' alc beer

I understand your predicament though, but unfortunately with the scientific knowledge that we have now (that wasn't around in such depth as when the rules were written), we now know that fermentation and alcohol production is pretty unavoidable.

That said, if your reasons for zero alcohol are for Allah, then I'm sure He'll be proud of you for being considerate and thoughtful. Many Muslim folk I know who live here in NZ, a western country, have encountered times when they have done something that Allah would disapprove of. The point being that they didn't know, and apologised profusely... or sometimes it was a case of there not being an alternative. Much better than just being an arsehole and drinking vodka off a pig with your left hand (unfortunately I know some people who would do that and not see the problem with it, while still claiming to be devout).

So really, an alcohol free beer that had alcohol as a part of production is probably the best you can get. At least you try

Quote: Originally posted by MagicJigPipe

Please note that "0%" is something that is next to impossible with ANYTHING. Even the most analytically pure chemicals contain greater than 0% of contaminants. Even things like milk, bread, potato chips etc... are likely to contain at least one molecule of EtOH. Why? Think of how many atoms there are. Now think of how many molecules. These billions of different organic molecules are interacting with eachother millions of times a second. It seems to me that if there are ethyl, ethylene, ethyne etc... groups present (and O2), there will be at least one molecule of EtOH. Am I right on this? Actually, it is likely that if Islam doesn't allow the intake of ANY EtOH you and probably every other Muslim is violating this every day. What is the punishment for this? Would this cause a genocide?

Quote: Originally posted by mr.crow

You need to drink a lot of ethanol to feel it, at which point you have been "poisoned". One beer will have ~17mL of ethanol in it, and you could easily drink over 100mL of EtOH in a night and the liver will take care of it nicely. Depending on your heritage of course, my liver was evolved in Scotland and Eastern Europe I did another google search and Islam prohibits being intoxicated and therefore intoxicating substances even in moderation. I claim that alcohol free beer is not intoxicating so it will be OK to drink. I'm sure you can find an Imam that will agree with this. Just like how Aspartame has methanol in it but is non-toxic, or how poppy seed bagels have morphine in them. Decaff coffee has caffiene but won't get you wired, etc.

you must see driving limits in europe it is lower than what you said


http://www.safetravel.co.uk/EuropeDrinkDrivingLimits.html


the driver said to be intoxicated if he exceed these limits , this is the first
the other thing you can read more about the effect of alcohol ;

http://www.britishlivertrust.org.uk/home/the-liver/liver-dis...


have a nice day


[Edited on 27-10-2010 by aeacfm]

Quote: Originally posted by psychokinetic

You've got more alcohol in your body than is made by fermentation of 'zero' alc beer I understand your predicament though, but unfortunately with the scientific knowledge that we have now (that wasn't around in such depth as when the rules were written), we now know that fermentation and alcohol production is pretty unavoidable. That said, if your reasons for zero alcohol are for Allah, then I'm sure He'll be proud of you for being considerate and thoughtful. Many Muslim folk I know who live here in NZ, a western country, have encountered times when they have done something that Allah would disapprove of. The point being that they didn't know, and apologised profusely... or sometimes it was a case of there not being an alternative. Much better than just being an arsehole and drinking vodka off a pig with your left hand (unfortunately I know some people who would do that and not see the problem with it, while still claiming to be devout). So really, an alcohol free beer that had alcohol as a part of production is probably the best you can get. At least you try

thank you for your Respectable reply
that is the reason why i ask ? it is for Allah ?why not ?Allah worth more than this many times ...
about these people if they cant find the alternative the can drink schweppes

Quote: Originally posted by zed

I'm in the US. Here, non-alcoholic beer does contain a small amount of ethanol. Enough alcohol, that some doctors suggest that folks with liver problems should eschew NA beer completely. An Arab acquaintance, once conveyed to me, that NA beer is considered OK in most of the Arab world. It might not pass muster in Mecca, but it would be considered a reasonable way to wet your whistle in Abba Dabi. At any rate, the better NA beers, taste pretty good. In contrast, NA wine, is markedly inferior in taste, to drinking your own urine.

Quote: Originally posted by psychokinetic

I'd be interested to know if there are any non-alcoholic beers sold in Mecca, and if so, what the general take on the potential alcohol content is.

The fermentation under anaerobic conditions does not just produce alcohol and carbon dioxide but also modifies the brew in a lot of other ways to produce taste components.
One of the big Science Squirrel Labs projects is a working 9 Imperial gallon ( 41 litre ) microbrewery which includes a 60 litre boiler and a 45 litre mash tun.
I am planning on posting some photos in the my lab section some time.

As a non Australian, I'm confused as to what your Australian-ness has to do with the offensiveness or not of a Muslim dude asking about non alcoholic beer, Ramiel.

Can't wait to see those, ScienceSquirrel

Quote: Originally posted by aeacfm

i am talking about zero%

Quote: Originally posted by aeacfm

i think in any case alcohol must generated due to fermentation !!!

Quote: Originally posted by zed

Hey, the nifty beverage to drink during a visit to Mecca, comes from the ancient well near the Kaaba. Reputedly, Zem Zem (or Zam Zam) has never failed, since its discovery 4000 years ago. According to legend, it dates from the time of Abraham. It is alluded to, in The Old Testament, but perhaps not by name.

Quote: Originally posted by Ramiel

As an Australian, I find this whole thread offensive. I'm glad that you asked this questions at scimadness, where we are all impartial men (and women) of science. I'm afraid that if you'd asked at a beer brewing site you'd be shouted out. But seriously, could you just brew the malt flavoured drink in aerobic conditions? Yeast only produces alcohol in anaerobic conditions as far as I know. I don't know if you've brewed before, but this aerobic environment will be extremely difficult to maintain: you will need to constantly percolate air or oxygen containing medium through and this air must be perfectly sterile. Sterility (save for the yeasties) is the most important factor in a tasty beer I reckon. How about a lightly oxidising salt? I can't think of one which won't oxidise the crap out of the rest of the brew. Unfortunately, oxidation of beer gives it a distinctly wet-cardboard flavour or so I have found (not to mention the acetic acid, which you will not be troubled with, there being no alcohol to start with!).

Quote: Originally posted by Ramiel

Okay relax. In days past I might have played along with you... Australians are a great beer drinking nation. We have the 4th highest per capita consumption of beer in the world. I was just joking that I found the corruption of something so sacrosanct offensive... much like someone of a religious persuasion might. Didn't the "seriously though..." segue tip you off? In all honesty, all the best of luck with your alcohol-free malt flavoured beverage. edit: Yes, the yeast typically used to brew alcohol does tolerate aerobic conditions very well. It will just multiply until it has used up all the oxygen or food. The problem now seems to be that the yeast won't turn the food into flavour, as it does in anaerobic conditions. [Edited on 28-10-2010 by Ramiel]

Quote: Originally posted by zed

O'Doul's Dark is a pretty tasty NA beer. And, despite the absence of alcohol, it is a relaxing brew. Hops, the beer flavoring, is itself a relaxant. Makes a nice tea. Seems to aid in lactation too.

Quote: Originally posted by peach

An easy way to do this would be to vacuum distill the beer, which will strip pretty much all of the ethanol away. The vacuum breaks the water / alcohol azeotrope, which is usually only a problem with high concentration alcohols anyway.

Quote: Originally posted by peach

As I sit here sipping my 5% Stella pint cans, I can still see the reasoning behind that idea. I would miss having nice icy cool, relaxing beers. But, if I'd been brought up being told I shouldn't do that and that I should find some other, more productive way of relaxing, I expect I wouldn't. I didn't crave beer when I was young. I've just become lazy in my methods of relaxing. I don't think Allah cares too much about parts per trillion, it's the idea behind it. You're talking about very low percentage alcohols to start with and then about removing as much of that as possible. [Edited on 28-10-2010 by peach]

Quote: Originally posted by peach

That's true, it likely would make it taste funny. Where might he get a suitable membrane for that in the kinds of quantities he'll need though? That's not an arsehole question, I'm actually interested as I haven't looked into that myself.

Quote: Originally posted by aeacfm

aha , thats your opinion about that , i m asking about different thing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, since you're going to get picky about it, I'll get picky too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here are the facts.

Zed is entirely correct.

You can essentially forget this idea altogether.

He is also correct that there WILL be alcohol molecules in pretty much anything organic you eat or drink.

The yeast cells are everywhere, in the air, water, food products.

Unless you're willing to live in a HEPA filtered clean room drinking boiled, membrane filtered water and eating synthetic sugar, you're consuming molecules of alcohol whether you like it or not.

Trying to remove every single molecule of contaminant from something is impossible. Labs spend billions trying to do this with the most advanced equipment available, and can't. There is no chemical available that is 100% pure.

Alcohol is a natural part of life, it's the yeast trying to live, which I would assume Allah designed for. Purposefully getting drunk is not the same thing.

{edit}Actually, there is a way to do this. If you build you own mass spectroscopy unit and have it filter individual molecules one by one, it'll work. Then, when you pick up your lunch, you'll consume the alcohol molecules again. So you'll need to do it with everything (including the air you inhale). Good luck.

{double edit}I just had a read of the Qur'an on this and it doesn't say anything about the drink needing to be 100% free of alcohol molecules, it simply says 'strong' or 'intoxicating' drinks. Meaning, if you can get the levels of alcohol down to those that are found in naturally occurring water, foods and so on, that's not an intoxicating drink, as those things aren't forbidden by Halal. The use of the words 'strong' and 'intoxicating' suggest something specifically brewed to contain alcohol and get someone drunk. It doesn't say, anything with any alcohol in it.

When the Qur'an was written, it was around the time people had begun mass producing alcohols and using them on a regular basis to get drunk. I strongly suspect that element of Halal is related to saying "That's not what you should be doing to yourself" (purposefully brewing and drinking something like that), not "A molecule of ethanol is evil".

[Edited on 29-10-2010 by peach]

Quote: Originally posted by peach

] Well, since you're going to get picky about it, I'll get picky too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Here are the facts. Zed is entirely correct. You can essentially forget this idea altogether. He is also correct that there WILL be alcohol molecules in pretty much anything organic you eat or drink. The yeast cells are everywhere, in the air, water, food products. Unless you're willing to live in a HEPA filtered clean room drinking boiled, membrane filtered water and eating synthetic sugar, you're consuming molecules of alcohol whether you like it or not. Trying to remove every single molecule of contaminant from something is impossible. Labs spend billions trying to do this with the most advanced equipment available, and can't. There is no chemical available that is 100% pure. Alcohol is a natural part of life, it's the yeast trying to live, which I would assume Allah designed for. Purposefully getting drunk is not the same thing. {edit}Actually, there is a way to do this. If you build you own mass spectroscopy unit and have it filter individual molecules one by one, it'll work. Then, when you pick up your lunch, you'll consume the alcohol molecules again. So you'll need to do it with everything (including the air you inhale). Good luck. {double edit}I just had a read of the Qur'an on this and it doesn't say anything about the drink needing to be 100% free of alcohol molecules, it simply says 'strong' or 'intoxicating' drinks. Meaning, if you can get the levels of alcohol down to those that are found in naturally occurring water, foods and so on, that's not an intoxicating drink, as those things aren't forbidden by Halal. The use of the words 'strong' and 'intoxicating' suggest something specifically brewed to contain alcohol and get someone drunk. It doesn't say, anything with any alcohol in it. When the Qur'an was written, it was around the time people had begun mass producing alcohols and using them on a regular basis to get drunk. I strongly suspect that element of Halal is related to saying "That's not what you should be doing to yourself" (purposefully brewing and drinking something like that), not "A molecule of ethanol is evil". [Edited on 29-10-2010 by peach]

Quote: Originally posted by psychokinetic

The Islamic canon is what I was wondering about re; any non alcoholic beers that may be produced in say, Mecca.

Quote: Originally posted by psychokinetic

Islamic canon is a law unto itself, and the people in charge of it dictate what the devout can and cannot do, right? So I was wondering what the official stance on alcohol free beers was. If the top dudes say it's ok.... then it's ok, right?

So if they say it is ok, then I don't see the problem. Alcohol free beer is full of Islamic win!

Quote: Originally posted by psychokinetic

So if they say it is ok, then I don't see the problem. Alcohol free beer is full of Islamic win!

- may be i ddnt understand you or you cant understand me , thats first

- i didnt say that beer in islam tell you to to drink beer or any other drink must be zero.

- islm consider the human abiltiies and respect it.


- limits of drinking to be intoxicant also may be contolled by limits i specified before some thing like driving limits.

not like what you said that , alcohol free beer is full of islamic wine.

This is not a discussion. It's a comic opera in 3 parts. Enjoy your box seat!

Quote: Originally posted by peach

aeacfm, you have to believe I'm not trying to do down religion, I'm just assuming you want beer that adheres to Halal and that means I have to reference what the texts say about it. It is my interpretation of it, but then, saying it should contain no molecules of alcohol is also an interpretation. If it meant, to be entirely free of alcohol molecules, it would surely have been easy to say "no traces of alcohol", or something similar; "absolutely free of alcohol", "drinks must be as pure as water". The way it says "strong" and "intoxicating" drinks, would seem to be talking about drinks designed to get you drunk right? Again, I'm not trying to say this is stupid or you're wrong to want it without alcohol in it, I'm only trying to work out what is okay and what isn't. As you've heard, it's basically impossible to remove all of it from anything (water included), people didn't have spectroscopy when the Quran was written, so that must mean there is some quantity that is not considered against Halal, or everyone would have been breaking it since the text was written. "Strong" and "intoxicating" I think I am more correct in meaning, a.) something you've brewed to get drunk or that will easily make you drunk, b.) drinking enough of it that you do get drunk. If you remove 99%+ of the alcohol from beer, you've tried hard to get rid of all the alcohol, you're approaching the limits of what is physically possible and you'd have to drink buckets of it (literally) to even start feeling drunk. We are talking about absolutely minute quantities of alcohol, not Western 'weak beer' standards, it will be getting close to water in terms of the alcohol content. I don't mean to offend you, so I hope I haven't, John [Edited on 31-10-2010 by peach]

dear friend , John (peah)

it is oky
like what you said i will never find this beer of 0.000000% alcohol , aha may be in my dreams , other thing islamic canons respect this like what you said previous if you ate some sugar by fermentation it will convert to alcohol , so will Allah punish me because i ate Sugar "no body can say that ", at the same time every thing is full regulated
any way , i hope this could be finished and return back to general chemistry which unites us all .

i write this post to say every thing is oky

have anice night all , specially John

Quote: Originally posted by psychokinetic

Win, not wine. About religion it may be, Mr Wizard, but it is only thus to discover what level of alcohol and preparation is required. Sheesh. Like what Peach is saying up there, there is so little alcohol in it that' it's minute, but I'm getting mixed messages as to what those in charge of Islamic rules say about this minute alcohol beer.