Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Sulfuric Acid in UK

Housane - 26-6-2019 at 04:53

Hi There

Does anyone know where to get sulfuric acid in the UK?

Housane

Sulaiman - 26-6-2019 at 08:21

I recently bought one litre of drain unblocker conc. sulphuric acid off the shelf of my local hardware shop with no questions asked
even though there was a big red notice ... Trade only, EPP license required !

Housane - 27-6-2019 at 06:57

Ok thanks I can't find it near me. How conc. is the acid made in electrolysis of CuSO4 using a Pb and Cu electrodes?

hissingnoise - 27-6-2019 at 08:00

Quote:
How conc. is the acid made in electrolysis of CuSO4 using a Pb and Cu electrodes?

If you can afford a working Pt anode, you can plate out the Cu and make literally any conc. of acid you want...

OTOH, a lead dioxide anode just might work?

Pseudoscience - 27-6-2019 at 10:21

Go on eBay and search for one shot drain cleaner I’m pretty sure that 94% all you have to do is distil it

j_sum1 - 27-6-2019 at 15:12

Quote: Originally posted by Housane  
Ok thanks I can't find it near me. How conc. is the acid made in electrolysis of CuSO4 using a Pb and Cu electrodes?

This is how I used to make my sulfuric acid. It is time-consuming and labour intensive. Ok, not that labour intensive once set up but it is a painful process if you want any decent quantity.

I used a regulated power supply and a plastic peanut butter jar. A piece of lead flashing was the anode, which fairly quickly got coated in PbO2. Copper wire cathode which accumulated dendrites of Cu.

50g of pentahydrate dissolved into 200mL of water. (I know more dissolves with prolonged stirring but I wanted something that was a quick set up of five mins so that I could come back 24 hours later.) Current was calculated and regulated so that 110% of stoichiometric amount would react in 24 hours. Sometimes I would make up the next batch by dissolving more copper sulfate into the already made acid.

I would harvest the liquid and boil down several batches at once until it began to fume greatly: probably around 70%.

You can work out the yields: it is depressingly small. My little 100mL reagent bottle of concentrated sulfuric acid was quite precious.

I know that it is possible to increase the concentration, vessel size and current for faster production. But my method suited my needs at the time and was designed to require minimal effort on my part.

110% of theoretical current is necessary to mitigate against inefficiencies and ohmic resistance. It was also important to not let the acid remain in contact with the copper once electrolysis was turned off: traces of Cu2+ would find their way into the final product. I often ended up with a pale green with some white anhydrous CuSO4 crystals precipitating out. But some of my batches were a lovely clear oily liquid and seemed to have high purity.

hissingnoise - 28-6-2019 at 03:12

Quote:
You can work out the yields: it is depressingly small. My little 100mL reagent bottle of concentrated sulfuric acid was quite precious.

Indeed, that is small...but that you got any, at all, is surprising, all by itself...

Keras - 28-6-2019 at 05:01

I’m surprised sulphuric acid is scheduled in the UK. In France you can get it freely in whatever quantity you like. It’s about €6 per litre.

[Edited on 28-6-2019 by Keras]

hissingnoise - 28-6-2019 at 05:23

Oh well, c'est la vie...:(


Pseudoscience - 28-6-2019 at 08:38

Quote: Originally posted by Keras  
I’m surprised sulphuric acid is scheduled in the UK. In France you can get it freely in whatever quantity you like. It’s about €6 per litre.

[Edited on 28-6-2019 by Keras]


I think you’ll find that’s because the immigrants were throwing it at each over

hissingnoise - 28-6-2019 at 11:04

Quote:
I think you’ll find that’s because the immigrants were throwing it at each over[sic]

So, you don't like immigrants?

Any specific reason?

Morgan - 28-6-2019 at 13:37

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-introduces-tou...

j_sum1 - 28-6-2019 at 14:47

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
Quote:
You can work out the yields: it is depressingly small. My little 100mL reagent bottle of concentrated sulfuric acid was quite precious.

Indeed, that is small...but that you got any, at all, is surprising, all by itself...



There is no getting around the fact that 100g of copper sulfate pentahydrate yields only 22mL of concentrated acid, required 21 amp hours of electrolysis and will require boiling off at least 300mL of water.

So, yes, tedious. But definitely doable. Why would you be surprised that this is a viable method?

Added to the challenge is that this process is rough on electrodes and boiling down the acid requires caution. (Bumping anyone?)
I chose this method back when I was beginning, had very minimal equipment and did not have a source of sulfuric acid. I chose my volumes and current to be manageable with the time and equipment I had. Five minutes per day switching batches over was not onerous.

unionised - 28-6-2019 at 15:30

Quote: Originally posted by Pseudoscience  
Quote: Originally posted by Keras  
I’m surprised sulphuric acid is scheduled in the UK. In France you can get it freely in whatever quantity you like. It’s about €6 per litre.

[Edited on 28-6-2019 by Keras]


I think you’ll find that’s because the immigrants were throwing it at each over

A lot of people were throwing it at each other.
Some were immigrants; many were not.

The practical outcome is that they " banned" H2SO4.
The same people are now throwing caustic/ bleach based drain cleaner over eachother.
The effect on skin is pretty much the same.
The effect on eyes is worse.
So, where you were getting people who were disfigured, you will now get people who are disfigured and blinded.

That's what happens when the government feels it "has to do something" and doesn't actually think things through.

That lack of rationality is substantially the same as what makes people say "immigrants were throwing it at each over ".



hissingnoise - 29-6-2019 at 02:43

Quote:
So, yes, tedious. But definitely doable. Why would you be surprised that this is a viable method?

Because you used an oxidisable anode.

nezza - 29-6-2019 at 11:28

The UK government are scientifically illiterate autocrats who go in for idiotic over the top knee jerk reactions to problems usually making life difficult for everyone not just the likely perps. Chlorates - ban them-explosive precursor. Hydrogen peroxide - Ban it-explosive precursor. Nitric acid - Ban it-Acid AND explosive precursor. Sulphuric acid - Ban it-Acid. Meanwhile caustic alkalis are still freely available. As for "acid attacks" they have increased hugely recently and are mainly done by non indigenes.

Pseudoscience - 29-6-2019 at 13:10

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
Quote:
I think you’ll find that’s because the immigrants were throwing it at each over[sic]

So, you don't like immigrants?

Any specific reason?



I don’t have any issue with immigration. What I have an issue with is mass migration. Personally I don’t think half of our capital city should be immigrants but here’s not the place for discussion

@ Housane

Sulaiman - 29-6-2019 at 20:45

Here in UK it is almost impossible to find concentrated sulfuric acid,
maybe you should look for sulphuric acid instead ? :P

Or maybe battery acid ?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Battery-Acid-1-Litre/dp/B077J1Q8XZ/...

Assuming that 1.28 is the s.g. then the acid is about 40% w/w
--------------------------------------------------
EPP allows sulphuric acid <15% w/w so it may be available but I've not seen any online lately.

[Edited on 30-6-2019 by Sulaiman]

unionised - 30-6-2019 at 01:58

Quote: Originally posted by Pseudoscience  
Personally I don’t think half of our capital city should be immigrants but here’s not the place for discussion


Well, that's good.
Because, of course, half the population isn't immigrants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_London

Were you trying to spread propaganda on a science page without expecting to be fact checked?
As you say "here’s not the place for discussion".

A government pandering to the people who believe that sort of tosh are likely to ban sulphuric acid.

hissingnoise - 30-6-2019 at 03:38

Deep down we all know that racism is but one product of ignorance and ignorance is the only product of mental laziness.

unionised - 30-6-2019 at 05:02

Has anyone seen the topic lately?

Racism is among the things that can be deliberately induced or, at least, greatly enhanced by propaganda.
Some of that misinformation takes a lot of time and effort.
In some cases it also takes so much money that it exceeds the limits on campaign spending.
https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-s...

I have made dilute sulphuric acid by electrolysis of copper sulphate solution between a graphite anode and a lead cathode. (I used lead because lead sulphate is fairly insoluble)
It was tedious, but it worked.

Unfortunately, the same numpties who banned H2SO4 have also banned H2O2 which blocks an easy option of oxidising SO2 to make H2SO4. I once wondered about using an ozone generator in conjunction with burning sulphur, but I never got round to trying it.


There's a method which involves the use of NaHSO4 "disproportionating" in alcohol to give Na2SO4 and H2SO4 but I never tracked down practical details.

Pseudoscience - 30-6-2019 at 07:30

Quote: Originally posted by unionised  
Quote: Originally posted by Pseudoscience  
Personally I don’t think half of our capital city should be immigrants but here’s not the place for discussion


Well, that's good.
Because, of course, half the population isn't immigrants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_London

Were you trying to spread propaganda on a science page without expecting to be fact checked?
As you say "here’s not the place for discussion".

A government pandering to the people who believe that sort of tosh are likely to ban sulphuric acid.


Right in your own Wikipedia article 37% percent of the population were born outside of the U.K.. I will admit I was 13% off but to my defence I wrote that down from memory. I don’t have an issue with them I have an issue with the cultural differences which make integration difficult

Pseudoscience - 30-6-2019 at 07:41

Quote: Originally posted by unionised  
Has anyone seen the topic lately?

Racism is among the things that can be deliberately induced or, at least, greatly enhanced by propaganda.
Some of that misinformation takes a lot of time and effort.
In some cases it also takes so much money that it exceeds the limits on campaign spending.
https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-s...

I have made dilute sulphuric acid by electrolysis of copper sulphate solution between a graphite anode and a lead cathode. (I used lead because lead sulphate is fairly insoluble)
It was tedious, but it worked.

Unfortunately, the same numpties who banned H2SO4 have also banned H2O2 which blocks an easy option of oxidising SO2 to make H2SO4. I once wondered about using an ozone generator in conjunction with burning sulphur, but I never got round to trying it.


There's a method which involves the use of NaHSO4 "disproportionating" in alcohol to give Na2SO4 and H2SO4 but I never tracked down practical details.


They haven’t banned H2O2 they’ve just made anything over 12% illegal to possess. You could possible concentrate it using this method https://data.epo.org/publication-server/pdf-document/EP14166... though it might be a real pain in the proverbial to do for the amateur could someone tell me what the point is of the rotating distillation flask?

unionised - 30-6-2019 at 08:04

Quote: Originally posted by Pseudoscience  


They haven’t banned H2O2 they’ve just made anything over 12% illegal to possess. You could possible concentrate it using this method https://data.epo.org/publication-server/pdf-document/EP14166... though it might be a real pain in the proverbial to do for the amateur could someone tell me what the point is of the rotating distillation flask?


"could someone tell me what the point is of the rotating distillation flask?"
Among other things, it reduces bumping. It also ensures that the material is well stirred and it can also give a larger surface for evaporation to take place.

"You could possible concentrate it using this method "
You could, but it would be illegal because it's been banned or (in some weird use of the word) not banned- just made illegal to posses.

BTW re. "I don’t have an issue with them I have an issue with the cultural differences which make integration difficult" Is getting the wrong numbers part of your culture?

Tsjerk - 30-6-2019 at 08:06

I know one can perfectly make TATP with 12% H2O2, but you have to start somewhere, don't you?

This was 500 grams of TATP detonating in a bus instead of a train as it was intended to.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2005/jul/07/terrorism.tr...

At least I understand where the politicians are coming from.

[Edited on 30-6-2019 by Tsjerk]

Pseudoscience - 30-6-2019 at 10:39

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
I know one can perfectly make TATP with 12% H2O2, but you have to start somewhere, don't you?

This was 500 grams of TATP detonating in a bus instead of a train as it was intended to.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2005/jul/07/terrorism.tr...

At least I understand where the politicians are coming from.

[Edited on 30-6-2019 by Tsjerk]


Only half a kilo Christ that’s not much. You see I would google this stuff but I’d rather not end up on another list

hissingnoise - 30-6-2019 at 11:05

Quote:
Only half a kilo Christ that’s not much. You see I would google this stuff but I’d rather not end up on another list


You're afraid to google organic peroxides ─ are you serious?

Tsjerk - 30-6-2019 at 11:37

Quote: Originally posted by Pseudoscience  

Only half a kilo Christ that’s not much. You see I would google this stuff but I’d rather not end up on another list


0.3 grams of PETN laying loose on a lock like this breaks the inside and opens it. Energetics are not to be fooled around with.

[Edited on 30-6-2019 by Tsjerk]

andy1988 - 30-6-2019 at 13:05

Quote: Originally posted by Housane  
How conc. is the acid made in electrolysis of CuSO4 using a Pb and Cu electrodes?

Oh what a coincidence I was watching this earlier today, on the youtube channel 'ScrapScience'. The author advocates electrolysis of epsom salt (magnesium sulfate, MgSO4) instead of CuSO4 as it is cheaper. He also analyses electrode choices for this.

Video description:
Quote:
Electrochemically splitting magnesium sulfate into sulfuric acid and magnesium hydroxide using an electrolytic diaphragm cell. This is similar to a previous video I made where I made sulfuric acid from copper sulfate, though using a sulfate salt where the cation has a higher reduction potential than hydrogen makes the process a bit more difficult.
Based on the fact that epsom salt is around $10/kg for me (AUD), theoretically the H2SO4 generated by this method would cost about $22.50/litre (if it were concentrated to 98%), much cheaper than most sulfuric acid sources.


Edit: I also question the wisdom of the UK H2SO4 possession law. Acid attacks seem to be fit of madness or gang/intimidation behaviour (copycat behaviour perhaps) by people with no interest in chemistry. Now appropriately stopped at retail shops at least, I doubt those types would ever distill anything and instead find some other tool. I've seen an honor killing by an immigrant (Iranian?) father running over his daughter with a vehicle in their driveway. He never regretted it in court and blamed Western society for corrupting his daughter IIRC. So... maybe they should ban cars. (joke) But really I think the solution would be found by using psychology to guide policy.

[Edited on 1-7-2019 by andy1988]