Sciencemadness Discussion Board

"Bath Salts" Added to controlled chem list in LA

gutter_ca - 6-1-2011 at 14:57

http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2011/01/some_ingredie...

Substituted methcathinones? Haven't heard of that in years, always sounded like nasty stuff.

Ozone - 6-1-2011 at 16:32

It is a sad story, but he played with fire and got burnt.

If it had not been the son of a doctor, and it hadn't been gun-related, I doubt we would have heard much. Where was the media explosion and subsequent "public" outcry (mostly from lobby groups like MADD) for the previous 167 cases? I suppose those might have been non-lethal?

Although I don't advocate the irresponsible use of illicit drugs, I find the nanny-state concept quite disturbing...I am also against mis-represented pseudo-pharmies and the laws that necessitate the ruse...

While I might not totally condemn something like (hypothetically) "3,4-Methyenedioxypyrovalerone, 99.5 %", dosage info, pin packet to shirt before consumption for poison control, no life-guard on duty, take of your own free will at your own risk", I *hate* "bath salts, active ingredients not listed, dosage not listed, fillers possibly listed, not for human consumption.

The latter is a sure recipe for (what would you call a counterfeit of a knock-off barely-legal analogue of a banned drug?) overdoses, etc.

Again, although I don't advocate the irresponsible use of illicit drugs, I do believe that the "War on Drugs" has killed more people than the drugs.:(

Condolences,

O3

DDTea - 6-1-2011 at 22:11

Reminds me of a story of an old man who turned up at a hospital with psychotic symptoms. They thought he had dementia. Turns out, he'd been eating "Dead Sea Salts" and getting wacky off the sodium bromide :P

iHME - 7-1-2011 at 06:34

Well they banned "3,4-Methyenedioxypyrovalerone", commonly refered as MDPV around here.
It is simply a bad drug to abuse. Around here it just competed with amphetamine and was sold because the sentence was shorter when caught.
We even had a rather large lifestyle magazine run a cover story with the words "Paskaa kamaa, MDPV" on the cover. (Shit drug, MDPV).
It was that well known. And for some reason the tabloids promoted it for months as a "sex drug".

And the problems ware evident even with people who know what they ware doing, with "bath salts" it is instant failure.

franklyn - 23-1-2011 at 07:41

http://my.earthlink.net/article/us?guid=20110122/a18afa89-f6...
- or
http://enews.earthlink.net/article/us?guid=20110122/a18afa89...

It's normal human desire to get high. Making that illegal,
is why the bottom gets scraped even deeper in search
of substances that have no correctional consequences.
Be assured enacting prohibitions is destined to go on to
infinity, as subsequently marketed products circumvent
legal definitions.

.

quicksilver - 23-1-2011 at 12:23

Those in their mid-50's may remember the smoking of the scrapings of the [inside of] banana peels. That was fairly far-fetched; albeit mostly harmless. What is of a concern today is the length of likely self destruction & madness that folks go to today is search of mind altering experiences. Whatever happened to the Arts & Music?

hissingnoise - 23-1-2011 at 12:51

Quote:
Whatever happened to the Arts & Music?

Yeah, can't get the best from music without a nice smoke and can't understand modern art without trippin' . . .




anotheronebitesthedust - 23-1-2011 at 23:22

Quote:
Whatever happened to the Arts & Music?

They're called MP3's Grandpa. Don't worry about it, just finish eating your banana and you can watch another WW2 documentary.

froot - 24-1-2011 at 03:57

Quote:
Louisiana poison control authorities have logged 165 calls since September from people in crisis after smoking or injecting the substances, Jindal said.


Honestly, stupid should hurt, why make new laws that help stupid not to hurt so much?
With enough motivation anybody can maim themself or someone else with table salt, or a TV remote, which is seemingly inevitable with all the stupid lurking around, so they going to ban those too? Where does the line get drawn?

Stop interfering with natural selection, it is there for a very good reason!

quicksilver - 24-1-2011 at 15:56

Quote: Originally posted by anotheronebitesthedust  

They're called MP3's Grandpa. Don't worry about it, just finish eating your banana and you can watch another WW2 documentary.


MP3, is a patented digital audio encoding format using a form of lossy data compression;MP3 is an audio-specific format. Therefore it cannot encompass movement via video. It cannot record plays, dance or theater. The correct format would be an MP4.

Whatsa' mata'? Did I hurt your feelings?

The WiZard is In - 22-5-2011 at 15:39

Quote: Originally posted by gutter_ca  
http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2011/01/some_ingredie...

Substituted methcathinones? Haven't heard of that in years, always sounded like nasty stuff.

This just in - into my inbox from the CDC.

Emergency Department Visits After Use of a Drug Sold as "Bath Salts" --- Michigan, November 13, 2010--March 31, 2011

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6019a6.htm?s_cid=...

S.C. Wack - 22-5-2011 at 16:39

I didn't even have to read that to know that local headshops were to blame. The stores that sell things like this, like this, are owned by scum who know full well that this will be the reaction, in exchange for a few months of profits and likely overdoses from morons or bad dosage info. Internet orders are hardly ever cited in these cases. Just one of these men is often responsible for making a new drug illegal throughout their state these days.

For example Bouncing Bear Botanicals only got in trouble last year from their physical store's K2, not from their massive internet sales of mescaline, lysergamides, and DMT in plant form. They had the owner on all the charges you'd expect, then let him go, till 4 months ago they refiled. He's in deep shit now:
http://www.savejon.org/
guess he's blaming politics instead of greed, if the two are actually separate.

hkparker - 2-6-2011 at 10:35

I just saw on the news that the governor of Florida just passed a law outlawing bash salts in Florida.

Rogeryermaw - 2-6-2011 at 18:50

well of course! they are horrible and dangerous. hell, they probably contain some insidious compound like oxidane or hydrogen hydroxide.

quicksilver - 3-6-2011 at 06:14

Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack  
I didn't even have to read that to know that local headshops were to blame. The stores that sell things like this, like this, are owned by scum who know full well that this will be the reaction, in exchange for a few months of profits and likely overdoses from morons or bad dosage info. Internet orders are hardly ever cited in these cases. Just one of these men is often responsible for making a new drug illegal throughout their state these days.

For example Bouncing Bear Botanicals only got in trouble last year from their physical store's K2, not from their massive internet sales of mescaline, lysergamides, and DMT in plant form. They had the owner on all the charges you'd expect, then let him go, till 4 months ago they refiled. He's in deep shit now:
http://www.savejon.org/
guess he's blaming politics instead of greed, if the two are actually separate.




I happen to agree with you: it's simple greed. The very same owner would NEVER even consider taking any of their items internally, yet they know that the very basis for their existence is that some stupid bastard will do just that.

The guy knew he was gambling with getting slapped down. People like that aren't "surprised" what-so-ever. He eventually lost his gamble with making fast money from common garbage and plants. his profits were astronomical but he KNEW that eventually some kid would get poisoned or whatever would stir up enough emotion to get some cops over there and slam him.
The story paints a picture of a man wronged.......Legally, perhaps the whole thing was sloppy crap. But I just can't get worked up over some profiteer getting pinched for doing something that HE KNEW would end this way.

[Edited on 3-6-2011 by quicksilver]

gregxy - 3-6-2011 at 10:21

Another interesting area like this is over the counter anabolic steroids. A few years back this was big business. A chemist named Patrick Arnold figured out that he could legally sell steroid precursors (androstanedione and others) as dietary suppliments. Soon many others got on the band wagon and were developing and selling these compounds. Some would design their own molecules get them made in China and sell them here, (basically bypassing the whole FDA drug approval process). As long as the compound was not listed as a steroid on the DEAs list they were OK. Most of these were really crappy drugs, more estrogens than androgens with nasty side effects like causing liver damage, impotence, "man-boobs" and stunted growth if taken by teenagers.

Finally Partick Arnold became too greedy and created an "undetectable steroid" he called "the clear" which ended up being given to Barry Bonds and other top athletes. Well the undetectable steroid was detected and the story is still in the news. Arnold spent 3 months in jail and the DEA passed new laws outlawing the products Arnold and others had been selling.

In cases like this the "nanny state" does do some good. These products were sold with all kinds of false claims based on complicated pseudo-science. It would be very difficult for the lay person to evaluate the benefits and risks.


Rogeryermaw - 3-6-2011 at 19:39

i usually hate to be strictly black and white on any issue but there is no good reason or excuse for any sort of "nanny state" mentality. people have known for ages that there is a danger in any type of physical enhancement. it has been known that steroids have adverse side effects. that's their choice. health damage serves them right for trying to cheat the reality of how difficult it is to achieve that level of fitness and strength. if you aren't willing to work and strive for it then you don't really deserve it.

the point about the nanny state idea is that it was dangerous to ever give any agency the leeway to control any aspect of the lives of private citizens. one, because the first time we say "ok, that's dangerous. take it away from us", we automatically open the door for the next item and the next until it is no longer our choice, but those decisions are made for us. then, logically, since all technology has been declared bad for the public safety, interests fall away from discovery and education in technical arts. then you end up with idiots trying to ban water because they are too effing stupid to remember from grade school that dihydrogen monoxide means two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen which is of course vital for all life.

letting big brother make the world a safer place for us means we no longer have to be aware of the world at large and thus a mass "dumbing down" of the populace. so when back in the 1950's we would walk past a house where little jimmy is poring over chemistry tomes and making bangs and flashes, people would say "that boy is going to be a great scientist". now they call the police and your possessions are destroyed or taken and your family has to be put in the spotlight with uneducated assholes whispering "there goes that terrorist family".

quicksilver - 4-6-2011 at 07:49

You both have exceedingly good points and perhaps the use of the term "Nanny State" was an example of a label misplaced (I don't propose to speak for Grexy: it's just that I think he may agree more than disagree) and the terminology may side-track an issue for the need to have some form of controls on labeling potentially toxic materials from a larger scale agenda.
I don't think it's necessarily a "nanny state" mentality to preserve laws demanding clear labeling of ingredients for instance. Yet I (personally) don't enjoy anyone making purchasing decisions for me. What may begin as an attempt at preventing fraud ends up becoming a true "nanny state" mechanism & so forth. Many good ideas morph into over-bearing encumbrances when the intellectually lazy are permitted to remain in a decision-making role. However that generally gets back to individual responsibility!.

Where I live, we have an ordinance that demands a label (on industrial chemical products) be presented in two languages; thus the ingredients are often only available in an MSDS (at best!). The demand to cater to a voting block has resulted in a weakening of the availability important information.
There will always be a "dumbing down" of the populous when we allow someone else to do our thinking for us (IMO). We will continue to be vulnerable to this when political label identity is a marketing tool & we vote for the party rather than the person.

We eventually find our Senators or Representatives are ambulance-chasing lawyers or property development crooks from both our major political parties. We see continually a two tier justice system for "Celebrities" who get "house arrest" while the common man or woman goes to prison.
As our society becomes a Big Commercial (a marketing-tool Frankenstein), Truth & Justice become a managed and manipulated agenda rather than an agreed upon commonality.



-=Obvious disclaimer=- This only my personal & I certainly can be wrong: I'm not speaking as a moderator what-so-ever.opinion

The WiZard is In - 4-6-2011 at 08:48

Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver  
Y
We eventually find our Senators or Representatives are ambulance-chasing lawyers or property development crooks from both our major political parties. We see continually a two tier justice system for "Celebrities" who get "house arrest" while the common man or woman goes to prison.

As our society becomes a Big Commercial (a marketing-tool Frankenstein), Truth & Justice become a managed and manipulated agenda rather than an agreed upon commonality.

-=Obvious disclaimer=- This only my personal & I certainly can be wrong: I'm not speaking as a moderator what-so-ever.opinion

I would take time to disagree. The politicians are only doing
what their voters want. Democracy in action.

Every-time something untold happens — the cry goes up — How
did that happen? Why were there no - laws - rules - regulations
to prevent it from happening.

The politicians every help full hear the cry and respond with —
rules-laws-regulations and their baggage.

Makers of the L-R-R's
Shakers of the -
Bakers of the -
Writers of the -
Interpretors of the -
Enforcers of the -
Ad infinitum.

The current thinking among the political and Eastern Liberal News
Establishment
is to scare people to death. There being no
problem that cannot be portrayed as a crisis, for which the
only possible solution is — government action. AKA there is
no problem that cannot be solved by passing a law - promulgating
a regulation. If making it illegal does not work - make it more
illegal. e.g., Crack cocaine.


Time to did this out and dust it off.


Spilled Some Salt? Call 0SHA
By MICHAEL M. SEGAL
Letter to the editor. Wall Street Journal 9viii91

Decent people believe we should warn employees about hazardous
materials on the job. Governments at all levels have endorsed such a
"right to know" for employees, and the Occupational Safety and
Health Administration (OSHA) has written laboratory safety rules with
this in mind. Unfortunately, the results of the rules provide some
textbook cases of how good intentions can go awry.

I first became aware there was a problem when I read the label on
one of my laboratory chemicals. It read: "WARNING: CAUSES
IRRITATION. Avoid contact with eyes, skin or clothing. Avoid breathing
dust. Wash thoroughly after handling." This "hazardous" chemical was
sodium chloride, ordinary table salt. The supplier was carrying out its
OSHA obligation to warn of potential hazards.

There is nothing wrong with careful handling of sodium chloride. The
danger comes from a situation in which hazardous and safe
substances carry similar warnings, leading to scant attention being
paid to all.

As an example, a warning about skin contact is also provided with
tetrodotoxin, the highly potent poison present in some fish that is
rumored to be the active ingredient in the "zombie powder" Haitian
voodoo practitioners throw to paralyze victims. For many years,
tetrodotoxin was one of the few substances to come with a sheet of
paper warning about hazards.

Now, OSHA requires chemical suppliers to prepare and provide a
two-page "Material Safety Data Sheet" for all chemicals that might be
hazardous. There are even such sheets for sodium chloride, advising
the laboratory worker to "Wear [a I respirator, chemical safety goggles,
rubber boots and heavy rubber gloves" in the event that some salt
spills. Although the warning on tetrodotoxin is more severe than that
for salt, the effect of turning up the intensity of warnings on low-risk
chemicals is to blur the distinction between high and low risk.

The warnings about salt are not an isolated example of one
chemical supplier worried about liability. Here's another company's
advisory about a different chemical: "After contact with skin, wash
immediately with plenty of soap and water, . . . Special Firefighting
Procedures: Wear self-contained breathing apparatus and protective
clothing to prevent contact with skin or eyes. . . . Waste Disposal
Method: Dissolve or mix the material with a combustible solvent and
burn in a chemical incinerator equipped with an afterburner and
scrubber. Observe all federal, state and local environmental regula-
tions." This "hazardous" chemical is paraffin wax-what ordinary
candles are made of.

Now over-labeling is spreading from individual chemicals to entire
labs. I am currently being asked to hang a sign on my laboratory door
reading "RESTRICTED AREA: CARCINOGENS, REPRODUCTIVE
TOXINS AND ACUTELY TOXIC CHEMICALS IN USE."

A warning of acutely toxic chemicals is reasonable for my research
lab, but the warning about birth defects and cancer is overblown. It is
required because my lab contains a bottle of the drug phenytoin.
Phenytoin is one of the most commonly prescribed anti-seizure
medications. It is on the OSHA warning lists because pregnant women
taking several hundred milligrams of the drug a day have a small
danger of having children with birth defects and there may be a small
danger of tumors in the child. But these risks are low compared with
the risks to the fetus of maternal seizures. So, although it is recom-
mended that 1, as a neurologist, continue to prescribe phenytoin
through a woman's pregnancy, I must now post an alarming notice on
my door warning of cancer and birth defects because the same
substance is used in tiny quantities in my lab.

An institution can choose not to post room signs for certain drugs on
the OSHA warning lists. To do this, however, the institution would have
to make a determination that such a warning is not "appropriate." An
OSHA spokeswoman cautioned that since enforcement is done by
OSHA inspectors, it would be "prudent" to label all rooms that contain
any drugs on the OSHA lists. If the labeling of salt and wax by
chemical companies is any guide, we can expect to see a lot of
over-labeling of labs at corporations and universities.

There are several positive features of the OSHA rules: The best
example is the mandated "Chemical Hygiene Plan" safety books that
are a welcome addition to the information that employees receive
about hazards.

There are also costs to the regulations: New administrators are
being hired to carry them out. The taxpayers are signing a blank check
to pick up the tab for the increased costs at university labs, because
such "indirect costs" get tacked onto federal research grants. The
large indirect costs billed by universities have less to do with cedar
closets for presidents houses than they do with universities lacking
incentives to agitate for cost effectiveness of regulations.

I'm sure that those who drafted the OSHA rules don't put hazard
labels on their salt shakers and don't wash their hands after touching
candles. But when "right to know" rules are combined with vague
regulations, corporations and universities will limit their liability by over
warning. Such "Crying wolf" over trivia risks lowers our vigilance for
real risks. I is important to restore a sense of proportion.

Dr. Segal is a neurologist and neuroscientist at Harvard Medical
School.

----
The latest fruitloopery —

WALL STREET JOURNAL
REVIEW & OUTLOOK
JANUARY 27, 2011
Land of Milk and Regulation
Preventing the next dairy farm oil slick.

President Obama says he wants to purge regulations that are "just plain dumb," like
his humorous State of the Union bit about salmon. So perhaps he should review a
new rule that is supposed to prevent oil spills akin to the Gulf Coast disaster-at the
nation's dairy farms.

Two weeks ago, the Environmental Protection Agency finalized a rule that subjects
dairy producers to the Spill Prevention, Control and Countermeasure program,
which was created in 1970 to prevent oil discharges in navigable waters or near
shorelines. Naturally, it usually applies to oil and natural gas outfits. But the EPA
has discovered that milk contains "a percentage of animal fat, which is a non-
petroleum oil," as the agency put it in the Federal Register.

In other words, the EPA thinks the next blowout may happen in rural Vermont or
Wisconsin. Other dangerous pollution risks that somehow haven't made it onto the
EPA docket include leaks from maple sugar taps and the vapors at Badger State
breweries.

The EPA rule requires farms-as well as places that make cheese, butter, yogurt, ice
cream and the like-to prepare and implement an emergency management plan in
the event of a milk catastrophe. Among dozens of requirements, farmers must train
first responders in cleanup protocol and build "containment facilities" such as dikes
or berms to mitigate offshore dairy slicks.

These plans must be in place by November, and the U.S. Department of Agriculture
is even running a $3 million program "to help farmers and ranchers comply with on-
farm oil spill regulations." You cannot make this stuff up.

The final rule is actually more lenient than the one the EPA originally proposed. The
agency tried to claim jurisdiction over the design specifications of "milk containers
and associated piping and appurtenances," until the industry pointed out that such
equipment was already overseen by the Food and Drug Administration, the USDA
and state inspectors. The EPA conceded, "While these measures are not specifically
intended for oil spill prevention, we believe they may prevent discharges of oil in
quantities that are harmful."

We appreciate Mr. Obama's call for more regulatory reason, but it would be more
credible if one of his key agencies wasn't literally crying over unspilled milk.



gregxy - 4-6-2011 at 11:09

Thanks quicksilver, my choice of the term "nanny state" was not the best.
My main point is that "government" provides a valuable infrasturcture.
Obvious examples are things like roads and the fire department.
However I also think it is important to have controls in areas where
it is very difficult or dangerous for the consumer to evaluate the products.
Examples of this are the FDA, FAA and SEC.

The problem is that government (or any organization) wants to keep growing
and expand its function. This is a "natural phenomena". Currently I'd estimate
our government has expanded at least 3 times larger than is optimal.

As Wizard pointed out, the restrictions on chemicals are probably more the results of the over zealous media that is always looking for a story to sell. Liability lawyers don't help either. (If you tried to sell a chemistry set with real chemicals in it it would probably be impossible to get insurance for your company).








entropy51 - 4-6-2011 at 14:47

I agree that things have gotten out of hand in terms of regulation, but offhand I can think of a few reasons that people at large have become terrified of chemicals. A short list of them:

Times Beach

Seveso

Minamata

Bhopal

Love Canal

Spring Valley

All this has not a little to do with fear of chemicals. Chemophobia is not a completely irrational response to these types of events.





quicksilver - 4-6-2011 at 15:37

No argument here....I remember Bhopal very well and I remember how hard the people had to fight to get treatment or "compensation": that what they called redress from major poisoning & loss of life.
If that tragedy had happened in the US or UK I'd bet they wouldn't try to shut them up with a few dollars after many years. It made me very sad & ashamed of things I had dealt with vocationally in the past.

Wizard/Gregxy:
I hear you all. I apologize for taking the topic so far OT. I should have known better.

[Edited on 4-6-2011 by quicksilver]

The WiZard is In - 4-6-2011 at 16:39

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
I agree that things have gotten out of hand in terms of regulation, but offhand I can think of a few reasons that people at large have become terrified of chemicals. A short list of them:


Love Canal

All this has not a little to do with fear of chemicals. Chemophobia is not a completely irrational response to these types of events.



I agree Love Canal is a classic case of Chemphobia, however,
it is also a classic case of BS outdistancing/replacing science.

See the attached PDF. It dobe only one a many.

Attachment: Love Canal Science.pdf (1.1MB)
This file has been downloaded 973 times

Like many you conveniently overlook the millions killed by
chemophobia fruitloopery. The classic case being DDT.
The Econuts got it banned as it was believed to cause thin
bird egg shells. Their believe system is - it is better that
millions die each year from malaria then to have one egg shell
be too thin.


djh
----
Chemophobia is good
business — invest your
children.

---------
Local families denounced the study,
saying it would provide no comfort to
mother whose infants had died from
heart mummers and Down Syndrome.

California Company’s Study Says PCB’s
Did Not Harm Babies.
New York Times 14i11

bbartlog - 4-6-2011 at 19:15

The evidence for DDT causing thin bird egg shells was quite strong, as I recall. And DDT was banned in the USA, where malaria deaths are about as common as deaths from black widow bites (single digits per year). It is still produced and used in some countries as a way of fighting malaria. Furthermore, countries that have some semblance of organized government (Mexico and Vietnam, for example) have been able to fight malaria very effectively without using DDT. Those countries where it remains endemic are among those which continue to use DDT, but in general they are crippled by poverty and lack of public health infrastructure - so that the availability, or lack thereof, of DDT, is hardly the determining factor in whether they continue to suffer from malaria.

The WiZard is In - 5-6-2011 at 04:48

Quote: Originally posted by bbartlog  
The evidence for DDT causing thin bird egg shells was quite strong, as I recall. And DDT was banned in the USA, where malaria deaths are about as common as deaths from black widow bites (single digits per year). It is still produced and used in some countries as a way of fighting malaria. Furthermore, countries that have some semblance of organized government (Mexico and Vietnam, for example) have been able to fight malaria very effectively without using DDT. Those countries where it remains endemic are among those which continue to use DDT, but in general they are crippled by poverty and lack of public health infrastructure - so that the availability, or lack thereof, of DDT, is hardly the determining factor in whether they continue to suffer from malaria.


A cynic or liberal would note that the tree hugger's who oppose
the use of DDT are well off white Americans and Europeans while
those who die from malaria are thrid world minorities....

This from the NY Times ... granted you will find no lack of articles
supporting - denouncing this.


New York Times
October 5, 2006
EDITORIAL OBSERVER
The Revival of a Notorious Solution to a Notorious Scourge

By TINA ROSENBERG
Of all the wars in Africa, the most deadly is between humans and
mosquitoes. More than a million Africans die of malaria every
year, the vast majority of them small children. Malaria shrinks the
economies of countries where it is endemic by 20 percent over 15
years. One reason the mosquitoes are winning is that the world
had essentially discarded its single most effective weapon, DDT.


But Washington recently resumed financing the use of DDT
overseas, and the dynamic new malaria chief of the World Health
Organization, Arata Kochi, has said that the W.H.O., too, endorses
widespread indoor house spraying with DDT.

This is excellent news for the humans in Africa. DDT both repels
mosquitoes and kills them. It is the cheapest, longest lasting and
most effective insecticide, and it will not threaten the ecosystem.
Unlike in the past, DDT will now be sprayed inside houses once or
twice a year in minute amounts.

DDT was the most important insecticide in the eradication of
malaria in the United States, and in malaria control in southern
Europe, Asia and Latin America. With DDT, malaria cases in Sri
Lanka, then called Ceylon, dropped from 2.8 million in 1946 to 17
in 1963.

But Rachel Carson’s 1962 book “Silent Spring” documented how
DDT, sprayed over crops and over cities, built up in the ecosystem,
killing birds and fish. William Ruckleshaus, the first head of the
Environmental Protection Agency, banned DDT in 1972 for all but
emergencies.

This was the right decision — for the United States. Malaria was no
longer an issue, and Washington needed to ensure that it would
not be used on crops. But the decision had deadly consequences
overseas. “If I were a decision maker in Sri Lanka, where the
benefits from use outweigh the risks, I would decide differently,”
Mr. Ruckleshaus told me in 2004. “It’s not up to us to balance risks
and benefits for other people.”

Yes, except that Africa’s malaria programs are financed by donors
and vetted by the world’s health establishment, which is
dominated and financed by the United States and Europe, where
DDT is also banned. People in rich countries felt it would be
perceived as hypocritical to push a product in poor countries that
they had banned at home. Even malariologists who knew DDT
could be used safely dared not recommend it.

The United States, which used DDT irresponsibly to wipe out
malaria, ended up blocking much poorer and sicker countries from
using it responsibly. Under American pressure, several Latin
American countries that had controlled malaria stopped using DDT
— and in most of them, malaria cases soared.

The other reason for DDT’s demise was donor tightfistedness. DDT
has to be sprayed inside houses, an activity that needs to be
carried out by governments. In most African countries, this means
donors must pay. They balked, and insecticide-treated bednets
became bureaucrats’ preferred solution. Donors liked the program
because it was cheap and sustainable, as consumers would buy
the nets — often at subsidized prices. But it has failed. The nets
work — but even at $5, few can buy them. The most recent data
show that only 3 percent of African children sleep under treated
nets.

The eradication of malaria in rich countries turned out to be the
worst thing that happened for people with malaria in poor
countries. Malaria lost its constituency, and the money dried up.
Throughout Africa, until recently, countries were using chloroquine
to cure malaria, a medicine that cost pennies, and so could be
bought by rural families. But mosquitoes had become resistant to
it. And donors were unwilling to spend the money for effective
medicines.

But this is changing. The AIDS pandemic has raised interest in
third-world disease, and malaria financing has more than doubled
in the last three years. African countries are also learning from
South Africa, which doesn’t have to depend on donors. Since 2000,
South Africa has been successfully beating malaria using the new
medicines and house spraying with DDT.

Conservatives in the Senate, led by Tom Coburn and Sam
Brownback, have forced a revolution in Washington’s malaria
programs. America now promotes effective malaria drugs, gives
away bednets, and has brought back house spraying — including
with DDT.

Malaria soared because the forces allied against it quit the
battlefield. Now the humans are back.


djh
----
Who would paraphrase Haladane —

If God had such an
inordinate fondness
for beetles why did he
make chlordane?

[Edited on 5-6-2011 by The WiZard is In]

[Edited on 5-6-2011 by The WiZard is In]

The WiZard is In - 5-6-2011 at 05:15

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
I agree that things have gotten out of hand in terms of regulation, but offhand I can think of a few reasons that people at large have become terrified of chemicals. A short list of them:

Times Beach

Seveso

Minamata

Bhopal

Love Canal

Spring Valley

All this has not a little to do with fear of chemicals. Chemophobia is not a completely irrational response to these types of events.


You missed Bari — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Raid_on_Bari

I would mention in passing the two most dangerous chemicals on this planet - responsible
for untold millions of deaths each and every year are — sucrose and ethanol.

Noted in passing - "Since December, 2006 some 40,000
people in Mexico have died due to the [drug] cartel violence."

Wall Street Journal 4-5 June 2011.


djh
----
50 000+ Americans die
in road accidents every year.
A number that could be
reduced by 40 000+ by
passing a simple law.

hkparker - 25-6-2011 at 00:56

I know there are several tech people on this forum but for those who arn't aware there is a very active group of hackers right now. They recently leaked several documents, some classified, from the Arizona state police department in retribution for the draconian immigration laws. One of the leaked documents that is unclassified was a USAF report on bath salt drugs, claiming that these chemicals are sold as bath salts for the purpose of being used as drugs, and that this is a method of avoiding law enforcement. This document is probably available elsewhere but this is how I came to hear about it. If people would like to read it they can U2U me.

dann2 - 25-6-2011 at 04:34


In my neck of the woods, 'bath salts', 'plant food' etc was being openly sold in head shops. You purchased and smoked, snorted, injected or whatever so they were prohibited. The original artical at top of thread is referring to FAKE bath salts. (same racket I guess).
Would not do if you got your bits shrunk/damaged by taking a bath WOULD IT?

The peope that had the biggest problem with the whole racket wher the 'legit' drug sellers. There business was taking a serious hit. They were causing some of the headshop premised to spontanouly ignite in the dead of night. (as a community service).
Perhaps if one were to manufacture a 'duck pond' under the whole lot.............. (snigger)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFCIXHaXgyI

Dann2


[Edited on 25-6-2011 by dann2]

497 - 1-7-2011 at 02:04

Well look on the bright side, maybe the unending search (and it will never end as long as they outlaw drugs) for new analogues will turn up something that's actually better. Some would argue it already has.

I don't see how anyone in law enforcement (or legislation for that matter) can actually think its a sustainable practice to outlaw every new drug that puts one dumbass in the hospital.. The potential for huge profits facilitated by the global economy and internet has been realized by entrepreneurs worldwide. The exploration of legal analogues is just beginning. No amount of reactionary legislation is going to slow it down. In fact it will speed it up. Unfortunately the lack of methodical testing of new analogues has and will continue to result in casualties... But people don't need the government to tell them which drugs might kill them. The figure it out on their own real quick with the internet at their fingertips. If the well known and relatively "safe" drugs were legal, nobody would be selling obscure untested analogues to teenagers in head shops.. Hmm.. I lose a little more faith in humanity every time I think about this.

And if MDPV (and others) are such a shitty drugs, why are they getting so popular so quick (even before the media coverage)? Almost like there's people out there who's very profitable businesses are threatened by it (as dann2 said above)... Ever wonder if they figured out how to use the profits of their $350billion/year industry to exert a little influence on the media?

I can only hope that eventually the greater population realizes the inevitable and ongoing catastrophic failure of drug policy and decide to change it in the direction of harming fewer people (with correspondingly lower profits for some) rather than take it to even more extreme versions of the current system.. I'm afraid it'll be a long long time without an effective publicity countercampaign to discredit the one that's currently in place.. But how often do you see a group of people with few resources and little to personally gain outpublicize a group of people with huge resources and billions to gain? I'm not getting my hopes up too high.

Rogeryermaw - 1-7-2011 at 19:06

may as well just give up on humanity. until stupidity is forcibly outlawed, people will continue to do their 9 to 5, go home, drool on themselves while watching the kardashians, and allow the television to do their thinking for them. and why shouldn't they? complacency is so much easier than free thought once one has become accustomed to it. those of us who cannot accept this fate are in the staggering minority.

497 - 2-7-2011 at 05:33

Couldn't have said it better... It seems to me that this is all a part of the range of side effects of our previously evolutionarily useful but now self destructive self interest and greed. The world culture and psyche are continuously pushed in the direction of being the most profitable which is usually in the opposite direction of more people living happier lives. And with such new and effective ways of influencing the population implemented by a fewer and fewer number of powerful people, the trend can only accelerate. It seems the only possible way to reverse it would be a use of that very same technology that allows a few to powerfully influence many in a creative way. We need more people working on that... I wonder if a "religion" or more like philosophy/belief system could be crafted in a way the spread virally via the internet (as we've seen much less powerfully influential ideas spread so very rapidly?


jon - 7-7-2011 at 07:32

i think the whole point of this can be summed in one word, louisiana.
they incarcerate more people per capita than anywhere else in the world.
the problem could be solved by damning up the mouth of the missippii river until the whole state is underwater.

[Edited on 7-7-2011 by jon]

Life-threatening Necrotizing Fasciitis Due to ‘Bath Salts’ Injection

The WiZard is In - 21-1-2012 at 10:15

NB - Graphic content

Attachment: Bathsalts.pdf (126kB)
This file has been downloaded 572 times


--------
PRO/EDR> Necrotizing fasciitis - USA: (LA) injecting drug use, "bath salts"
ProMED-mail promed@promed.isid.harvard.edu to promed-edr
show details 11:32 AM (1 hour ago)
NECROTIZING FASCIITIS - USA: (LOUISIANA), INJECTING DRUG USE, “BATH
SALTS”
******************************************************************************
A ProMED-mail post
<http://www.promedmail.org>
ProMED-mail is a program of the
International Society for Infectious Diseases
<http://www.isid.org>

Date: Tue 17 Jan 2012
Source: ABC Good Morning America [edited]
<http://gma.yahoo.com/bath-salts-injection-leads-flesh-eating-disease-140407827.html>


The use of street drugs known as "bath salts" can lead to flesh-eating
disease, a new study warns. It describes the first known case of
necrotizing fasciitis caused by an intramuscular injection of bath
salts.

So-called bath salts are sold as synthetic powders that "often contain
various amphetamine-like chemicals," according to the United States
National Institute on Drug Abuse, which in February [2011] warned that
injections might cause the ravaging skin condition.

Study authors Dr Russell R Russo, a third-year orthopedic surgery
resident at the Louisiana State University Health Sciences Center New
Orleans School of Medicine, and colleagues, saw the effects firsthand.
They treated a 34 year old woman who developed forearm pain and
redness after she attended a party. She had no other symptoms but did
have a small red puncture wound on her arm. The woman eventually
admitted that she injected bath salts two days before her symptoms
began.

The doctors reexamined her and determined that she had necrotizing
fasciitis. The disease progressed so rapidly that the doctors had to
amputate the woman's arm, shoulder, and collarbone and perform a
radical mastectomy. The woman later underwent skin grafting and
rehabilitation.

The study was published in the January issue of the journal
Orthopedics [Russo R, Marks N, Morris K, et al. Life-threatening
necrotizing fasciitis due to "bath salts" injection. Orthopedics
2012;35(1):124. Available at
<http://www.orthosupersite.com/view.aspx?rid=91162>].

"Despite the drug's legal status, it must be treated as illicit, and
one must be suspicious when examining a patient with this clinical
history because the diagnosis of flesh-eating bacteria can masquerade as abscesses and cellulitis," the authors said in a journal news release.

--
communicated by:
ProMED-mail from HealthMap alerts
<promed@promedmail.org>

[The article described in the above news release is said to be the
first report of necrotizing fasciitis and myonecrosis from
intramuscular injection of bath salts [Russo R, Marks N, Morris K, et
al. Life-threatening necrotizing fasciitis due to "bath salts"
injection. Orthopedics 2012;35(1):124. Available at
<http://www.orthosupersite.com/view.aspx?rid=91162>]. The patient in the report described injecting "bath salts" intramuscularly (because she could not obtain intravascular access) 2 nights prior to developing symptoms of increasing right forearm pain and erythema. She initially had 1 small red puncture wound at the injection site and rapidly developed skin sloughing around the injection site with a malodorous drainage. Necrotic tissue, including non-contractile muscle, was extensively debrided at surgery. Bacterial isolates from this patient were reported to be a mixture of aerobes and anaerobes, namely the aerobes, alpha hemolytic _Streptococcus_, _Streptococcus viridans_, and the anaerobes, _Gemella morbillorum_, _Peptostreptococcus micros_ and _Actinomyces odontolyticus_.

Necrotizing fasciitis, also called "flesh-eating disease" is a rapidly
progressive bacterial infection that destroys the soft tissues
covering muscle (fascia). Patients usually complain of intense pain in
the involved region that initially may seem out of proportion to the
external appearance of the overlying skin. Aggressive surgical
debridement of all necrotic tissue and administration of antibiotics
are necessary. However, surgical intervention is often delayed after hospital admission, because these infections can be difficult to recognize in their early stages, and deep muscle necrosis may not be appreciated early on. The commonest type of bacteria causing necrotizing fasciitis is _Streptococcus pyogenes_ (group A
streptococcus), but fungi (such as mucor) and other bacteria (such as _Staphylococcus aureus_, _Vibro vulnificus_ and mixtures of multiple aerobic and anaerobic bacterial species can cause necrotizing fasciitis.

A variety of infections, including anthrax, tetanus, botulism,
clostridial gas gangrene, necrotizing fasciitis and myonecrosis, can
follow injection of illicit drugs. If the injected material contains
anything that could cause vasoconstriction (such as epinephrine), it would set up anaerobic conditions that would enhance the risk of
disease with obligate anaerobes.

"Bath salts" contain a variety of drugs that have central nervous
system stimulatory effects. These drugs include methylenedioxy
pyrovalerone (MDPV), mephedrone (methylmethcathinone, also known as M-Cat, Meow, 4-MMC, or Bubbles), and methylone
(methylenedioxymethcathinone, also known as bk-MDMA, M1, or Explosion) (<http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20110908/bath-salts-used-to-get-high-are-now-illegal>;).

Mephedrone and methylone are synthetic chemical derivatives of the
psychedelic herb khat. These drugs can cause agitation, paranoia,
hallucinations, anorexia, anxiety, insomnia, or muscle tremors. These
drugs were made Schedule I substances in the United States in
September 2011 (<http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20110908/bath-salts-used-to-get-high-are-now-illegal>;); schedule I by definition have no currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States and, therefore, may not be prescribed, administered, or dispensed for medical use
(<http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/schedules/>;). "Bath salts" can be snorted, smoked, or injected.

A HealthMap/ProMED-mail interactive map showing the location of New Orleans, Louisiana in the south eastern USA can be accessed at <http://healthmap.org/r/01pT>. – Mod.ML]

[see also:
2011
---
Anthrax, human - UK, Germany 2010: heroin users, final report
2011131.3712
Mucormycosis, fatal - USA: (MO) tornado-related 20110612.1789
2009
---
Necrotizing fasciitis, fatal - Canada: (MB) 20090118.0222
2004
---
Tetanus, parenteral drug users - UK 20040124.027
2003
---
Tetanus, parenteral drug users - UK (03) 20031208.3011
Tetanus, parenteral drug users - UK (02) 20031201.2976
Tetanus, parenteral drug users - UK 20031129.2952
2002
---
Botulism, wound, drug-associated (02 20020305.3690
Botulism, wound, drug-related 20020303.3670
Botulism, Wound, Drug-related - USA (California) 20020228.3655
Botulism, wound, drug-related - UK: alert 20020223.3614
2001
---
Botulism, wound, drug-related - UK (Scotland) 20011005.2414
2000
---
Clostridium novyi deaths, drug addicts - UK 20000620.1005
Unexplained deaths, drug addicts - UK: diagnosis 20000615.0977
Unexplained deaths, drug addicts - UK 20000608.0922
Unexplained deaths, drug addicts - Ireland & Scotland 20000608.0918
Unexplained deaths, human - UK (Scotland) (09) 20000522.0807
Botulism, wound, drug-related - Worldwide: background 20000521.0802
Botulism, wound, drug-related - UK (England) 20000518.0777
Anthrax, human - Norway: update 20000513.0747
Unexplained deaths, human - UK (Scotland) 20000511.0717
Anthrax, human - Norway: confirmation 20000510.0707
Anthrax, human - Norway: RFI 20000506.0119
1999
---
Clostridium perfringens, needle-trans. - USA (Calif.) 19990621.1060]
.................................................sb/ml/sh
*##########################################################*
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are posted, but the accuracy and completeness of the
information, and of any statements or opinions based
thereon, are not guaranteed. The reader assumes all risks in
using information posted or archived by ProMED-mail. ISID
and its associated service providers shall not be held
responsible for errors or omissions or held liable for any
damages incurred as a result of use or reliance upon posted
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AndersHoveland - 21-1-2012 at 12:03

For anyone that knows about the city of Los Angeles and the surrounding area, the real problem is not chemicals. Perhaps they should focus on the root causes of their high crime rates and widespread drug abuse, rather than blaming it on chemicals.

quicksilver - 22-1-2012 at 06:59

I lived in LA for 22 yrs: I know a bit about what goes on there. Just off Alpine in what people used to call China Town; downtown and S.E. LA is perhaps one of the more serious places to live (alone with N. Denver, Various areas of Chicago, & Detroit). I had family in LA - that was the only reason I ever had for being there. I know a bit about Norwalk, Compton, El Monte & Hawaiian Gardens.

497 - 5-3-2012 at 14:21

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22191803/

What now???

GreenD - 5-3-2012 at 14:25

Quote: Originally posted by 497  
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22191803/

What now???


SO:
Is the media blatantly spreading false tales of death & destruction from this?

Or

Is the death and OD'ing caused by impurities?

I've heard nothing but negativity about bath salts.

497 - 5-3-2012 at 15:02

Why should the media provide anything else? It is in the coke/meth cartels (governments included) interest to stop the spread of replacements for their cash cows. Nothing to do with science. The dumbasses don't seem to realize that even negative publicity will popularize the things they're trying to stop. Thus it is inevitable.

As I said before, almost any drug will harm if heavily abused in the same mindset as one abuses coke/meth. The whole point is self destruction for many. The fact that a substance has caused anecdotal harm and deaths says almost nothing about its true safety characteristics.

People are fully able to convince themselves they have sustained harm from a drug experience. Does that mean physical damage actually occurred because they say it feels like it? The placebo effect is powerful, and if conventional wisdom is that a substance is harmful, why should anecdotal evidence indicate the reality?

[Edited on 5-3-2012 by 497]

Farmerjohn - 18-6-2012 at 11:36

Just out of curiosity does anyone have access to a mass spec or other device capable of analyzing exactly what is in this stuff? would be interesting to know what the composition is and its mechanism of action

anotheronebitesthedust - 18-6-2012 at 13:17

Quote: Originally posted by Farmerjohn  
Just out of curiosity does anyone have access to a mass spec or other device capable of analyzing exactly what is in this stuff? would be interesting to know what the composition is and its mechanism of action



Quote:

It is supposedly active at 3–5 mg, with typical doses ranging between 5–20 mg.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylenedioxypyrovalerone


People probably treat it like cocaine, measure out a dose of 100-200mg and end up in hospital. That would be my guess of why it's so harmful.

S.C. Wack - 23-6-2012 at 19:44

Oct. 21 2011:
SUMMARY: The Administrator of the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) is issuing this final order to temporarily schedule three synthetic cathinones under the Controlled Substances Act (CSA) pursuant to the temporary scheduling provisions of 21 U.S.C. 811(h). The substances are 4-methyl-N-methylcathinone (mephedrone), 3,4-methylenedioxy-N- methylcathinone (methylone), and 3,4-methylenedioxypyrovalerone (MDPV). This action is based on a finding by the Administrator that the placement of these synthetic cathinones and their salts, isomers, and salts of isomers into Schedule I of the CSA is necessary to avoid an imminent hazard to the public safety. As a result of this order, the full effect of the CSA and its implementing regulations including criminal, civil and administrative penalties, sanctions and regulatory controls of Schedule I substances will be imposed on the manufacture, distribution, possession, importation, and exportation of these synthetic cathinones.

That's been effective eh? Maybe what is sold now is some variant of these. I have few problems with people taking and in many cases selling drugs, but the headshop/convenience store owners and their distributors causing all the problems ought to be held accountable...I don't see them as any less slimy than Sandusky...they give drugs a bad name...

Follow up on not-bath salts:
Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack  
For example Bouncing Bear Botanicals only got in trouble last year from their physical store's K2, not from their massive internet sales of mescaline, lysergamides, and DMT in plant form. They had the owner on all the charges you'd expect, then let him go, till 4 months ago they refiled. He's in deep shit now


Unbelievably:
Friday, December 30th, 2011
Charges dropped in Bouncing Bears case

by Dennis Sharkey

Charges against a Lawrence businessman for the alleged distribution of illegal substances have been dropped.

It’s the second time that Jonathan Sloan has avoided prosecution after it appeared he was headed for trial.

Jefferson County Prosecutor Jason Belveal said that Kansas Attorney General Derek Schmidt’s office pulled the plug on the case because of issues with the federal search warrants in the case.

Sloan was first arrested on Feb. 4, 2010, after a warehouse that he owned a few miles south of Oskaloosa on U.S. 59 Highway was raided along with the Sacred Journey store in Lawrence. He was accused of supplying Sacred Journey with the now illegal marijuana-like substance K-2.

Thousands of cactus plants and 20 Colorado River toads and more than $700,000 was seized. The investigation and raids were a collaboration of the Jefferson County Sheriff’s Department, Kansas Bureau of Investigation and the Federal Food and Drug Administration.

In April 2010, former Jefferson County Prosecutor Caleb Stegall dropped the charges against Sloan but said he anticipated that charges would be refiled.

Stegall left his position as county prosecutor in January but refiled the charges against Sloan a week before leaving to take a position with Gov. Sam Brownback’s administration.

In addition, charges were also filed against Clark Sloan, Olathe and Jonathan’s father, and a Bouncing Bears Botanicals employee Brad Miller, Lawrence.

More than 20 charges were filed against all three men.

All three were set for trial next month. Schmidt’s office took over prosecution of the case earlier this year. Belveal said prosecutors did leave the door open for charges to be filed again in the future.

zgoat69 - 1-9-2012 at 17:12

"bath salts" are also banned in Florida due to this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgsNmty5llc&feature=youtu...

OK, now I have had my share of drug experiences. Many different drugs at a range of dosages and run the gambit in ROA's. Having said that, I have nwver been so high that I wanted to eat a homeless person, or anybody for that matter. Sounds like "bath salts" is some pretty trippy shit............or the equivalent of the T-virus from Resident Evil

cyanureeves - 2-9-2012 at 15:43

i was told bouncing bear got into trouble for advertising or mentioning that the toads could be licked for a trippy effect. alot of dmt is gotten from tannins and the roots are advertised for such.

edgeofacliff - 3-9-2012 at 02:33

In case anyone is interested, some of the laws outlawing "bath salts" go on to say "and any other substance that can be used to produce dangerous drugs" To me that seems overly broad and gives the authorities the power to arrest people for just about anything. The drug war is pushed by politicians and by yellow journalism, and the result is more government and less freedom for the citizens. Nanny state? More like police state. And as for politicians voting for their constituents, it depends how much money you put into their super PACs. I dont recall any politicians recently that would not eat up the police issued propaganda and use it against us citizens for our own safety. When you allow police to influence the making of laws a police state is inevitable.

jock88 - 1-6-2015 at 15:20


I see a ban in coming in for all 'legal highs' in the uk. Very sad day indeed. Where am I going to get my bath salts now

hissingnoise - 2-6-2015 at 01:51

Well, cannabis really is a gateway drug ─ it leaves the user open to dangerous tobacco addiction!?! :o :( :mad:

Some prohibitionist fuck actually said as much on some antidrug site . . .



Zombie - 2-6-2015 at 02:15

I smoked pot before I smoked cigarettes. I only started smoking cigarettes because my pot smoking friends did.

What say now brown cow?

byko3y - 2-6-2015 at 04:46

I read all you nice storries about how you love drugs and other stuff, but for some reason most of the people are against something like MDMA, LSD, etc. Even when somebody smokes pot, he might not appreciate someone's desire to try something different.
I'd say the pot is barely usefull for understanding your problems and yourself, it's rather a regular medications capable of some minimal psychoactive function.
Some they've banned bath salts. Who cares? More important drugs are still banned - this is the issue of the day.
Chinese will make thousands of new research drugs that are not banned and their action on human is either unknown or close to unknown.

blogfast25 - 2-6-2015 at 07:51

Quote: Originally posted by byko3y  

Chinese will make thousands of new research drugs that are not banned and their action on human is either unknown or close to unknown.


Yeah, 'cos the Chinese are barbarians'. :(


Zombie - 2-6-2015 at 13:59

They eat babies... Barbarians, not Chinese.

I might have given the wrong impression byko3y . I Don't like drugs or drug abusers. I Have tried a pretty diverse spectrum of drugs, some better than others but I never got into that recreational "clique" of folks that use drugs like amusement park tickets.

I personally think I know what my life long issues are but I'm not sure what to call it. I get PISSED OFF when I see people acting like they are the only person that matters.
What would you call that?

I have tried drugs to see if anything would either give me an insight into why I feel the way I do (psychedelics) so I can repair or at least tolerate the issue, or the ones that make that feeling stop (sedative types).

When I see full time pot smokers I see lazy f'rs that again are just out for themselves. I generalize a LOT but for the most part...
My mom smoked pot but she was dying so I guess that's a pass. SOME people with "weed cards" are legit but I'm sure you could list them by name in an hour. Probably under a thousand registered users might be legit.

Banning all the legal highs is a GREAT move because like you said, the China/India/German/American/British/Canadian/ALL of them are pumping out synthetic drugs as fast as they can be banned. 4Meo DMT? Perfectly legal. $100.00 a gram Funny it has the same street price as cocaine or meth... It's supposed to be synthetic psilocin. What is it??? I don't know. Who cares, it gets you high. So does strychnine, and lack of oxygen.

Ban all that crap. Force people to find legit ways to deal w/ their issues. If you can't afford to see the best doctors on the planet... Fight! Find another way to cope.

My method of coping should be obvious to all of you. I post on four forums. One here, one motorcycle, one scooter, and one distillation. That's not enough so I run two businesses, One building boats, and one repairing engines. Not enough so I am developing two more businesses. One is a fuel distillation column, and the other is a sail powered sport boat. Not enough... 700lbs of Presa Canario dogs to take care of. Still not enough... Build a lab. Build race scooters, build a chopper, Add a rear porch to the house because for the lab to be legal I needed a second exit. Find a reason for black holes. find a reason for people to have the mental issues they do...
I'm f'n tired bro but I'm coping.

Ban all the get highs, and work on fixing people. That only makes sense.

IrC - 2-6-2015 at 22:03

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Yeah, 'cos the Chinese are barbarians'


I get the Sarcasm. Much as I hate to put down my own country however the statistics are a disturbing revelation of where the U.S. is heading. The numbers of people of higher education and the level of education they possess in China compared to the U.S. indicates this country has nearly achieved the goal of becoming Idiocracy while China is heading to the top in terms of an advanced highly educated society. Not that they do not have a large poorly educated 'worker class', yet the numbers of citizens who are very highly advanced in the technological sciences is already making my country look like the movie.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/

Very sad if you ask me but I firmly believe in calling things the way they are, nothing to be gained by hiding the pathetic yet true truth.

Zombie - 2-6-2015 at 23:11

Now there's a point that ties in many of my thoughts on people in general, governments, and where the world is heading. Strangely enough it took a thread on "legal highs" to bring it out.

From what I have learned on several forums is the eastern cultures are fighting to educate their citizens. Without understating anything the Asian countries have fought from almost zero technology to a top contender in many of the worlds most used markets.

I think it's fair to say they are pursuing a goal of a better society, and actually accomplishing it.

Now step back and look at the western nations. India, and Russia are screwed. India is just overpopulated, and has to deal w/ that. Russia is ... Russia. Africa? Who the hell knows.
All the rest of us are stuck in a system that is pushing education out of reach for the majority of our populations. You have to be that one in a thousand to get full scholarships or the one in a 10,000 that can afford to pay or that one in a hundred thousand that can do it all by themselves. We all complain that the rich get richer, and the working poor pay them to get richer.

What's wrong with this picture?

Many of us blame countries like China for selling us cheap crap, yet we don't make anything better to replace it with. We buy it because we are gluttonous, and just buy everything that we can find.

Look around your house. I'll bet that at least 80% of what you own was made in China or made from China made parts. They have everything going for them, and we all complain about how "poor us" can't catch a break.

I know... It's not all green grass, and roses but it is sneaking up on us, and guess who will eventually be calling the shots.

Maybe when Hillary gets in she can nuke the rest of the planet for us so we can still be the boss of the world. That's almost where we have allowed ourselves to be corralled.

Loptr - 3-6-2015 at 04:28

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
Now there's a point that ties in many of my thoughts on people in general, governments, and where the world is heading. Strangely enough it took a thread on "legal highs" to bring it out.

From what I have learned on several forums is the eastern cultures are fighting to educate their citizens. Without understating anything the Asian countries have fought from almost zero technology to a top contender in many of the worlds most used markets.

I think it's fair to say they are pursuing a goal of a better society, and actually accomplishing it.

Now step back and look at the western nations. India, and Russia are screwed. India is just overpopulated, and has to deal w/ that. Russia is ... Russia. Africa? Who the hell knows.
All the rest of us are stuck in a system that is pushing education out of reach for the majority of our populations. You have to be that one in a thousand to get full scholarships or the one in a 10,000 that can afford to pay or that one in a hundred thousand that can do it all by themselves. We all complain that the rich get richer, and the working poor pay them to get richer.

What's wrong with this picture?

Many of us blame countries like China for selling us cheap crap, yet we don't make anything better to replace it with. We buy it because we are gluttonous, and just buy everything that we can find.

Look around your house. I'll bet that at least 80% of what you own was made in China or made from China made parts. They have everything going for them, and we all complain about how "poor us" can't catch a break.

I know... It's not all green grass, and roses but it is sneaking up on us, and guess who will eventually be calling the shots.

Maybe when Hillary gets in she can nuke the rest of the planet for us so we can still be the boss of the world. That's almost where we have allowed ourselves to be corralled.


As for paying for education, we have elected to pre-pay our children's college using a Virginia 529 plan. You pay today's rates to cover the rates of 18 years from now. It's expensive, but I think it will be worth it.

And the Chinese are not evil. I admire them for their work ethic, which is something the USA could learn a lot from. Instead, we think we are entitled, and are still riding the wave created by the previous generations. We have also regulated ourselves into a corner and raised the cost of manufacturing to insanity, where it starts to make sense to import from other countries. It will soon catch up with us.

I have often thought one of the easiest ways to attacks a countries economy is to flood the market with cheap, malignant, and addictive drugs. If you can affect the people of a nation, you effect that nation. I would think a government would have an easier time smuggling drugs into a country than a cartel necessarily would, and I am not saying the Chinese are doing this, but if I wanted to take down a country, this is one of the multiple ways I would do it. It would also be more effective if the country had social healthcare.

gregxy - 3-6-2015 at 10:08

I have visited China several times over the past few years. Even though I am a white American, I really think they are going to kick our butts. They are "hungry for success" and their government seems (at the time) to be making the right choices. A good thing about a one party system is that you know who to blame when things go wrong.

America has huge issues with "attitude", entitlement and idolizing the wrong people. At this point I don't think free education in America would do anything but waste money. I gave my kids free college and it didn't help. The either chose bad majors or couldn't complete their classes. You get what you pay for and you value what you work for. If the racial barriers were removed from college admissions, the top universities would be 90% Asian.

I doubt the "bath salts" are an attempt to undermine America. Chinese have a "buyer beware" type of attitude and will sell you any stupid thing you are willing to pay for. If China has a strategy to attack America it is to sell us disposable items and buy up our real estate.

jock88 - 3-6-2015 at 15:22


It's not that long ago (the chinese are happy to remember) that britain fought a war with china so that it could continue to sell opium to the masses in china.
We are complaining about their 'dominance'.

Zombie - 3-6-2015 at 15:41

Opium war... Great point.

I think they are hip to that tho.


http://money.cnn.com/2015/04/15/news/economy/japan-china-us-...
Move over, Beijing. Japan now owns more U.S. government debt than any other country, ending China's six-year run as the top foreign holder of U.S. Treasuries.
Data from the Treasury Department released Wednesday show that Japan owned $1.2244 trillion worth of U.S. government securities at the end of February, compared to $1.2237 trillion for China.

Add this to the real estate holding that China has here, I can't even find a reference for this. I don't believe anyone want's this public.

In the 1940's they worried that we might end up speaking German... Poppycock!

jock88 - 4-6-2015 at 03:45


China are attempting to unload Americal debt.