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Red Phosphorus Source

VSEPR_VOID - 19-12-2019 at 01:35

https://www.amazon.com/Match-Striker-Sheets-Strike-Regular/d...

I just think that I will leave this here.

G-Coupled - 19-12-2019 at 06:53

Wow - that's...something.

Doesn't seem a bad price, either. I think they might only ship in the US though.

[Edited on 19-12-2019 by G-Coupled]

SWIM - 19-12-2019 at 08:40

If anybody tries recovering phosphorous from these please do a write-up.

I've been meaning to do the same for A + B finger flash powder but have been putting it off because I've got red P and don't use it much.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Magic-Tricks-A-B-FINGER-FLASH-Flash... (I believe this is Armstrong's mixture components, but haven't bought any to test)

There are clearly a lot of posters on here who either can't, or don't want to, buy red P from chemical suppliers but would still like to get a bit OTC for this or that project.

B(a)P - 19-12-2019 at 10:17

Doesn't seem a bad price, either. I think they might only ship in the US though.

Yeah, they don't ship to Australia unfortunately.

beerwiz - 19-12-2019 at 10:23

Just buy plain Phosphorus, it is white. Then heat it to 250C, it will turn into red phosphorus.

Loptr - 19-12-2019 at 10:37

That's actually pretty interesting.

SWIM - 19-12-2019 at 10:45

And is white phosphorous easier to get where you are?

beerwiz - 19-12-2019 at 11:22

I would make the phosphorus if needed. Take a phosphorus salt like the Phosphorus chloride or the trichloride, or the pentachloride (PCl5) and dissolve it in water. Then add a stoichiometric amount of metal powder like Zinc, Iron, etc. The phosphorus will precipitate out and the metal powder will take on the salt (exchange reaction).

Apparenly Phosphorus comes in some interesting colors: "Colourless, waxy white, yellow, scarlet, red, violet, and black." It probably starts out as black, then turns white, yellow, scarlet, red, and violet by heating.

[Edited on 19-12-2019 by beerwiz]

[Edited on 19-12-2019 by beerwiz]

woelen - 19-12-2019 at 11:31

@beerwiz: You have no idea at all of the chemistry of phosphorus. Phosphorus is not a metal and does not form salts of sulfate, chloride etc.

Making phosphorus at home from easily available materials (where I live you can easily buy phosphates and phosphites, both of which are quite boring chemicals) is very challenging. Only a few members over here managed to get phosphorus from such materials.

garphield - 19-12-2019 at 11:35

Quote: Originally posted by beerwiz

I would make the phosphorus if needed. Take a phosphorus salt like the chloride, sulfate, acetate, etc and dissolve it in water. Then add a stoichiometric amount of metal powder like Zinc, Iron, etc. The phosphorus will precipitate out and the metal powder will take on the salt (exchange reaction).

Apparenly Phosphorus comes in some interesting colors: "Colourless, waxy white, yellow, scarlet, red, violet, and black." It probably starts out as black, then turns white, yellow, scarlet, red, and violet by heating.

[Edited on 19-12-2019 by beerwiz]

I’m really not sure if I get this, phosphorus has a few chlorides but they react in contact with water and I can’t find anything on phosphorus sulfate or acetate on Google. I know there are many easily available phosphate salts, but the phosphate is the anion so it will stay in solution and the cation in the compound will precipitate out, plus phosphate isn’t elemental phosphorus anyways. I’m really new to this forum so I might be missing something obvious but I really don’t think this would work.

Industrially phosphorus is made by heating phosphate salts with carbon and silica sand, but this requires very high heat so it’s probably not practical for an amateur.

[Edited on 19-12-2019 by garphield]

G-Coupled - 19-12-2019 at 11:36

It's all about the weird allotropes IIRC, and that for example - only Red Phosphorus will catalyse certain reactions for some reason I'm sure is fascinating.

beerwiz - 19-12-2019 at 11:37

Phosphorus does come as the PCl, PCl3, and PCl5.

garphield - 19-12-2019 at 12:34

You can get phosphorus chlorides but they hydrolyze on contact with water so you aren’t gonna be able to precipitate out phosphorus like with copper chloride.

G-Coupled - 19-12-2019 at 14:16

Quote: Originally posted by garphield

You can get phosphorus chlorides but they hydrolyze on contact with water so you aren’t gonna be able to precipitate out phosphorus like with copper chloride.

Stupid question, but - hydrolyze into what?

DavidJR - 19-12-2019 at 14:41

Phosphoric acid and HCl

Cou - 19-12-2019 at 14:46

If you buy 10 of these, install trapdoors in front of your front door to trap the incoming no-knock DEA agents.

Abromination - 19-12-2019 at 15:19

Quote: Originally posted by garphield

Quote: Originally posted by beerwiz

[Edited on 19-12-2019 by beerwiz]

Thats because salts with phosphorus in the cation dont exist, you cant have a phosphorus sulfate or acetate. Thats a pretty strictly ionic thing, and phosphorus just cant do that.

garphield - 19-12-2019 at 17:05

Yeah, that’s why I think that guy’s idea of precipitating phosphorus out of solution with a reactive metal like what you might do with copper or silver wouldn’t work, I just wasn’t 100% sure that you couldn’t have something with both phosphorus and an acetate group, like some sort of ester. I was trying to explain why I thought that you couldn’t treat phosphorus like it was a metal - because it isn’t a metal - but I am very new to this forum while that guy has like ninety posts so I didn’t just want to say that he was wrong because I know there is a rule against being argumentative and I might have been just as wrong as he was. Sorry for not being clearer in my original post.

Assured Fish - 19-12-2019 at 17:29

Quote: Originally posted by beerwiz

I would make the phosphorus if needed. Take a phosphorus salt like the Phosphorus chloride or the trichloride, or the pentachloride (PCl5) and dissolve it in water. Then add a stoichiometric amount of metal powder like Zinc, Iron, etc. The phosphorus will precipitate out and the metal powder will take on the salt (exchange reaction).

Apparenly Phosphorus comes in some interesting colors: "Colourless, waxy white, yellow, scarlet, red, violet, and black." It probably starts out as black, then turns white, yellow, scarlet, red, and violet by heating.

[Edited on 19-12-2019 by beerwiz]

[Edited on 19-12-2019 by beerwiz]

Jezuz you are misinformed, we have an entire thread dedicated to this topic and while it is possible for an amateur to make elemental phosphorous from phosphates the process is hellishly difficult and dangerous requiring temperatures in excess of 800*c. Some members have succeded at this approach but its pretty broudly recognised as an endevour for the few.

Also phosphorous halides are not salts, as neither phosphorous or halides are metallic (exceptions and amonium cations not included).

[Edited on 20-12-2019 by Assured Fish]

SWIM - 19-12-2019 at 18:09

Quote: Originally posted by Cou

If you buy 10 of these, install trapdoors in front of your front door to trap the incoming no-knock DEA agents.

Buy ten of those and people will think you're a survivalist.

Don't panic. I buy red P in bags and it comes to me through customs with properly filled out customs forms and I haven't heard from the DEA yet.

Maybe they'll come by to bother me someday, but I doubt they're going to go after purchasers of match strikers before they come after all the people like me out there.

Note: I don't buy it by the kilo, more like 100 to a few hundred grams at once.

itsafineday - 20-12-2019 at 09:04

I've really come to detest amazon and found these on ebay https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-8-x-11-Match-Strike-Paper-Strike...

Just as SWIM said it's survival gear.

Abromination - 20-12-2019 at 14:41

Quote: Originally posted by garphield

Yeah, that’s why I think that guy’s idea of precipitating phosphorus out of solution with a reactive metal like what you might do with copper or silver wouldn’t work, I just wasn’t 100% sure that you couldn’t have something with both phosphorus and an acetate group, like some sort of ester. I was trying to explain why I thought that you couldn’t treat phosphorus like it was a metal - because it isn’t a metal - but I am very new to this forum while that guy has like ninety posts so I didn’t just want to say that he was wrong because I know there is a rule against being argumentative and I might have been just as wrong as he was. Sorry for not being clearer in my original post.

You are fine and correct, you seem informed enough mate.
Post number means very little here nowadays.

PirateDocBrown - 20-12-2019 at 16:26

Quote: Originally posted by SWIM

Quote: Originally posted by Cou

If you buy 10 of these, install trapdoors in front of your front door to trap the incoming no-knock DEA agents.

From what country?

finetune - 20-12-2019 at 17:51

Quote: Originally posted by SWIM

If anybody tries recovering phosphorous from these please do a write-up.

I once recovered some rP from matchbox striking surfaces by different manufacturers out of curiosity.
Depending on the glue used, slightly wet the surface with acetone or dH2O and simply scrap it of with a spatula. Just dont wet it too much or you will have more cellulose contamination in the collected solid.
Wash the collected solid with acetone and water, followed by a H2SO4/dichromate cleaning of the crude rP.
After washing with water, you are left with pretty pure red phosphorus.

SWIM - 20-12-2019 at 19:14

Quote: Originally posted by PirateDocBrown

From what country?

Got some from Poland via Ebay earlier this year.

Got some from Estonia a couple years ago too.

Red P gets posted on Ebay intermittently.
Usually called amorphous phosphorous.
That's what they called what I bought from Poland.
I think there was some from Russia posted recently.

Here it is. https://www.ebay.com/itm/100g-phosphorus-7723-14-0-99-9-agri...

Just ordered 100 grams. let's see if it works, and if I get any visitors.

The listing does look a little vague, but the molecular weight is in the listing, so if it ain't phosphorus I ought to be able to return it.

I believe the "for fertilizers' line is cover to avoid getting reported or hassled. We'll see...

[Edited on 21-12-2019 by SWIM]

SWIM - 22-12-2019 at 18:05

They didn't balk at the order, but there is no projected shipping time or expected arrival date.

Will post when I find out if this worked.

I've actually still got most of the Polish stuff, but you folks get me paranoid about my supply chain sometimes.

BTW: Not being used for what you think it's for.
I'm fairly legit for an underground chemist.

Chemcraft - 23-12-2019 at 04:06

We sell red phosphorus with worldwide delivery.

https://chemcraft.su/product/23894

[Edited on 23-12-2019 by Chemcraft]

[Edited on 23-12-2019 by Chemcraft]

woelen - 23-12-2019 at 12:00

Be careful with selling red P to the USA. A UK-based seller of red P (and other, mostly pyrotechnics-related chemicals like Al, Mg, KNO3, KClO4 and a few other oxidizers and flame colorants) sold quite a lot of red P to USA-based customers (and sold practically none of the other chemicals to the USA). This seller was imprisoned on request of the USA. IIRC they even were delivered to the USA to be taken in custody over there. The seller was www.kno3.com and was of course shut down after this event.

The reason the USA wanted them punished was that a lot of the red P was used for making illicit drugs (mostly crystal meth). This was in 2007 or so, quite some years ago. But I still remember quite well, I found it quite scary at the time.

[Edited on 23-12-19 by woelen]

lordcookies24 - 30-12-2019 at 10:02

There is a lot of red P threads on this board. Is phosphorus all that useful? Or is it just for element collections?

PirateDocBrown - 30-12-2019 at 12:12

Quote: Originally posted by lordcookies24

There is a lot of red P threads on this board. Is phosphorus all that useful? Or is it just for element collections?

Crucial in regiospecific halogenation of alcohols.

G-Coupled - 31-12-2019 at 06:29

Quote: Originally posted by PirateDocBrown

Quote: Originally posted by lordcookies24

There is a lot of red P threads on this board. Is phosphorus all that useful? Or is it just for element collections?

Crucial in regiospecific halogenation of alcohols.

That's certainly one way of putting it.

PirateDocBrown - 31-12-2019 at 06:52

Quote: Originally posted by G-Coupled

Quote: Originally posted by PirateDocBrown

Quote: Originally posted by lordcookies24

There is a lot of red P threads on this board. Is phosphorus all that useful? Or is it just for element collections?

Crucial in regiospecific halogenation of alcohols.

That's certainly one way of putting it.

When alcohol halogenation is tried with hydrohalic acids as the reagent, rearrangement can occur. Use of phosphorus halides retains regiospecificity.

G-Coupled - 31-12-2019 at 07:00

Quote: Originally posted by PirateDocBrown

Quote: Originally posted by G-Coupled

Quote: Originally posted by PirateDocBrown

Quote: Originally posted by lordcookies24

There is a lot of red P threads on this board. Is phosphorus all that useful? Or is it just for element collections?

Crucial in regiospecific halogenation of alcohols.

That's certainly one way of putting it.

When alcohol halogenation is tried with hydrohalic acids as the reagent, rearrangement can occur. Use of phosphorus halides retains regiospecificity.

Needs more cowbell.

SWIM - 31-12-2019 at 15:36

My 100 gram order has been shipped.
No estimated arrival date.
https://cdn.dmnews.com/files/base/acbm/dmn/image/2014/01/960...

Woelen's post about the dangers of selling it in the US is interesting as I was considering putting this stuff in ampoules and selling it on Ebay to element collectors.

I doubt I'd have trouble with the purchased for drug manufacturing thing.
I mean, who would buy 1 gram of red P to make amphetamines, a Smurf?

But If this would require DEA paperwork I'll certainly pass.
Just not worth the trouble.

The markup is pretty good, but its not like there'd be much volume.
If you tried to grab a large share of the Ebay market you'd just depress the prices. And for what, a couple of sales a week?

If you lived in a large city you could probably do better playing a violin on a busy street-corner.

S.C. Wack - 31-12-2019 at 17:15

Well there are laws about licenses for importing or selling list 1 chemicals (like ephedrine). And possessing them in certain states. I'm sure there would be sales but who would be buying and how much are the police willing to pay.

SWIM - 14-1-2020 at 09:46

Just got 100 grams of red P in the mail from Russia.

It is vacuum packed in a plastic bag, and it says 99.4%.

Haven't tested it.

woelen - 14-1-2020 at 23:35

If it is from chemcraft.su, then you can trust it. That company delivers good quality materials and definitely is trustworthy.

SuperOxide - 28-1-2020 at 11:07

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

Be careful with selling red P to the USA. A UK-based seller of red P (and other, mostly pyrotechnics-related chemicals like Al, Mg, KNO3, KClO4 and a few other oxidizers and flame colorants) sold quite a lot of red P to USA-based customers (and sold practically none of the other chemicals to the USA). This seller was imprisoned on request of the USA. IIRC they even were delivered to the USA to be taken in custody over there. The seller was www.kno3.com and was of course shut down after this event.

The reason the USA wanted them punished was that a lot of the red P was used for making illicit drugs (mostly crystal meth). This was in 2007 or so, quite some years ago. But I still remember quite well, I found it quite scary at the time.

[Edited on 23-12-19 by woelen]

Do you have any links to any articles about this? I can see on archive.org that the last version of their website (Sep 04, 2006) was titled Raw Chemicals International Ltd, you would think that one would easily be able to find some details about the company and the legal troubles that brought it down with the name and URL, but I guess not... Or maybe my Google-fu just isn't what it use to be...

karlos³ - 28-1-2020 at 11:27

Yeah, the world police nation will put you in jail, they just put pressure on the respective gubbermints.

woelen - 28-1-2020 at 12:01

See here: https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/10290375.man-finally-...

karlos³ - 28-1-2020 at 12:21

Whoa, his "wife" looks like it was born a man

woelen - 28-1-2020 at 14:24

@karlos³: I see a tendency in your posts to add non-relevant comments which distract from the main subject of the thread. This is a very effective way of diluting threads and having them going south. Please try to avoid that and try to remain on-topic. A little going to a side-topic is not an issue, but going completely off-topic derails threads very easily.

morganbw - 28-1-2020 at 17:47

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

@karlos³: I see a tendency in your posts to add non-relevant comments which distract from the main subject of the thread. This is a very effective way of diluting threads and having them going south. Please try to avoid that and try to remain on-topic. A little going to a side-topic is not an issue, but going completely off-topic derails threads very easily.

Woolen sir, I see humor, you see non-relevant. No harm, no foul.
Please do not become too puritan.

woelen - 28-1-2020 at 23:47

Point is clear. Let's try to find a good balance in this.

fusso - 29-1-2020 at 09:36

Why not both? I see this as irrelevant humour

DavidJR - 29-1-2020 at 13:49

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

See here: https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/10290375.man-finally-...

Yeah, they were based not far from where I live. Personally I think the extradition was ridiculous because they were supplying materials that are totally unrestricted in the UK. But, we have an unfair extradition treaty with the USA...

Then again, he was apparently a child abuser too so I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for him.

Tsjerk - 30-1-2020 at 04:38

Quote: Originally posted by fusso

Why not both? I see this as irrelevant humour

I thought you would stay in Whimsy?

Fery - 3-2-2020 at 14:29

https://onyxmet.com/index.php?route=product/product&path...

G-Coupled - 4-2-2020 at 02:21

Quote: Originally posted by Fery

https://onyxmet.com/index.php?route=product/product&path...

Those prices seem pretty good, and that store looks real handy, too. :cool:

Fery - 4-2-2020 at 11:09

Yes, onyxmet seems to be kind for EU, because when buying from outside of EU the parcel is checked by customs and you have to declare the content and possibly hit the alert.
Sorry this article is in language most of you do not understand, but you can use online translator if interested. In short, 20 years young girl living in my country hit the alert because buying 156 kg of P, 200 kg of I2, 140 l of H3PO4 and other chemicals during 3 months so custom officers started to watch her and revealed illegal activities. But I believe that in case the girl did not use it illegally then no problem (she even had registered business ID).
https://www.celnisprava.cz/cz/tiskove-zpravy/2018/Stranky/ce...
Anyway better to avoid any checks - intra EU is not checked.

G-Coupled - 4-2-2020 at 14:26

That's really interesting - so was she caught doing illegal activities with all that stuff or no?

It kinda screams 'Walter White', all those reagents in those quantities, surely?

Fery - 5-2-2020 at 01:09

Yes customs administration searched her home and found methamphetamine and also other evidence material to the case (the mentioned hundreds kg of chemicals, cash, mobile phones, computers). It happened at 2017/2018 and it was for the first time when it was customs administration who revealed such case in my country.

G-Coupled - 5-2-2020 at 03:31

How long did it seem she got away with it all before getting caught, I wonder?

Was she always that brazen, or did she become careless maybe?

Fery - 7-2-2020 at 02:12

back to the topic - I have to recommend onyxmet.com
courier delivered my parcel the 4th day (it could be said 3rd day coz the order was in evening)
extra picture of beautiful crystals of distilled Sb (I had only pyrograde Sb2S3 in stock)

Herr Haber - 7-2-2020 at 04:54

Quote: Originally posted by Fery

Anyway better to avoid any checks - intra EU is not checked.

Not entirely true. I had parcels opened intra EU.
Then again, LiCO3 looks reasonably suspicious for a customs agent I suppose.

Edit: And yes, OnyxMet is the best source out there for extra pure elements. Very reliable.

[Edited on 7-2-2020 by Herr Haber]