Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Starter reagents for Organic Chemistry

Syn the Sizer - 28-2-2020 at 13:38

Hello everyone,

I starting to build my home lab O-chem is my strongest subject in school and also my favourite. I am interested interested in what are some common reactions done in the home lab, I am not looking for esterification unless it unique. I am looking for "intermediate difficulty" reactions. Its almost spring which means snow will be leaving soon and I can get outside. I am also interested in suggestions for reagents. Is it cheaper to buy salicylic acid or extract ASA from aspirin and synthesize it from there?

thanks in advance

j_sum1 - 28-2-2020 at 14:21

My honest opinion is to put chemplayer on your playlist and get inspired.

No one can help with prices without knowing your location. That said, aspirin is cheap and extraction is easy. I have only ever extracted my own.

Syn the Sizer - 28-2-2020 at 14:34

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
My honest opinion is to put chemplayer on your playlist and get inspired.


Ok, that's what I have been doing thus far, I will continue on that path, thank you.

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
No one can help with prices without knowing your location. That said, aspirin is cheap and extraction is easy. I have only ever extracted my own.


I wasn't necessarily asking about price, just more about what peoples opinion is based on what they have encountered where they are. I had figured it would be better to extract it. 500 500mg tablets is super cheap, theoretically thats 250g ASA.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Edited on 28-2-2020 by Syn the Sizer]

Tsjerk - 28-2-2020 at 15:12

Get some 96% sulfuric acid and 99% NaOH, I would say those are very useful reagents. After that ethanol and or methanol, MgSO4 and or Na2SO4. Azeotropic HCl is also a nice to have. Some beakers and or flasks are also a must have.

With those reagents you can do a lot of stuff, and you can think about getting building blocks like aromatics.

I always set on doing a certain experiment and then acquire the reagents, after a couple of experiment you will have to acquire less each time.

morganbw - 28-2-2020 at 15:59

You will eventually need solvents, ethanol/methanol/isopropyl are some easy alcohols to have. Think about mineral oil/toluene/ethyl acetate or other alcohol acetates/DCM etc.... the list goes on and on. Just get what you think you might need. You will be surprised at how soon you will have a pretty good collection.

Do not forget about phosphoric acid, really useful in some circumstances.
Glacial Acetic Acid, a must have. The list of useful acids is actually pretty big.

I have to stop here, but I leave with one or two more suggestions.
Alkali metals=great to have.
Acid salts/halogen salts= are nice/great to have.

I am ending here while dozens of other items are popping to my mind.
Enjoy your hobby, it is special.


[Edited on 2/29/2020 by morganbw]

Steam - 28-2-2020 at 17:05

I would definitely get a bunch of solvents such as Methanol, Ethanol (99%), acetone, and maybe some solvents like DCM. Honestly, you will start to acquire the chemicals which you need by beginning to run experiments. For instance, if you do a bunch of extractions, you are going to acquire more reagents specific to that field than if you did say synthesis of ionic liquids.
I recommend chemsavers.com for some of the more exotic things you come across, ebay and amazon for stuff to be bought in bulk.
I would also consider investing in some parafilm and chemwhipes since they are quite useful as well as a BUNCH of nitrile and vinyl gloves. Remember, gloves only slow the passage of chemicals when it comes to organics, they will not act as a perminant barrier. Once a chemical is on the surface of your glove, you need to remove it before the chemical permeates the glove. Sometimes you can go through a box of gloves a day if you are a bit messy.

Syn the Sizer - 28-2-2020 at 20:52

Thanks everyone for the replies. I should have clarified that I do have some stuff, such as methanol, ethanol, isopropanol, HCl, NaOH, CaCl2, NaHSO4, acetone, boric acid, MgSO4 and a few others I can't think of. I have plans on getting H2SO4, glacial acetic acid and some other stuff I can't find OTC right now. I can't find H2SO4 drain cleaner, 10% ammonia cleaner and others items anywhere here,

clearly_not_atara - 28-2-2020 at 20:56

You may wish to get some ammonia or ammonium salts so you can try the reaction with aspirin:

https://www.jpharmsci.org/article/S0898-140X(15)36934-2/pdf

I'm actually not sure if acetamide is produced, but my guess would be yes.

Syn the Sizer - 28-2-2020 at 21:03

Quote: Originally posted by clearly_not_atara  
You may wish to get some ammonia or ammonium salts so you can try the reaction with aspirin:

https://www.jpharmsci.org/article/S0898-140X(15)36934-2/pdf

I'm actually not sure if acetamide is produced, but my guess would be yes.


That looks interesting

Syn the Sizer - 29-2-2020 at 15:15

I have a somewhat related question, does ASA have a use outside of being aspirin and being a good source of salicylic acid? I guess my question is should I hold onto some ASA or just hydrolyze it all to salicylic acid. I just bought 500 325mg tablets and plan on doing and extraction tonight, I would hate to hydrolyze it all and find out I I need ASA, I don't have acetic anhydride to re-synthesize ASA.

Edit: I am considering following Nilered's 6 video series and Aspirin to Acetaminophen as my first real project.

[Edited on 29-2-2020 by Syn the Sizer]

Texium - 29-2-2020 at 15:28

The only use I can think of is making “copper aspirinate,” a compound which is almost insoluble in water and is a striking turquoise color. Search for it on here and you’ll find a thread with all the details needed to prepare it.

Syn the Sizer - 29-2-2020 at 15:37

Quote: Originally posted by Texium (zts16)  
The only use I can think of is making “copper aspirinate,” a compound which is almost insoluble in water and is a striking turquoise color. Search for it on here and you’ll find a thread with all the details needed to prepare it.


Thanks, the only other thing I was thinking was R'(O)acetyl salicylate (R aspirinate), but since its already an ester I have no idea how that works. I will just hydrolyze it all.

I will save a little for my organic crystal collection, and if I decide to make copper aspirinate I will call my dad and grab a few tablets off him to extract lol.

Thanks

Dr.Bob - 29-2-2020 at 19:14

Doing some practical or useful experiments was fun for me when I started. I still like it.

Making biodiesel is a neat example of real chemistry. Another one is luminol or oxalate diesters for chemoluminescence displays. making aspirin, lidocaine, or other common pharmas. Making polymers is also a great way to learn organic, there are simple preps and demos for nylon, polyesters, and polyurethane (most simple foams like Great Stuff are polyurethanes).

If you prefer more exciting things, learn how to make fireworks or rockets, there are clubs for both (pgi.org for example.) There is a huge amount of chemistry in the world.

Chemi Pharma - 1-3-2020 at 03:02

Don't be so modest. If you want to get big reactions and a great laboratory to do your experiments get a list of reagents like the one I have. Then you're able to do wherever you want in chemistry:

ABSOLUTE ETHYL ALCOHOL 99.8%
ACETALDEHYDE
ACETAMIDE
ACETIC ANHYDRIDE
ACETONE
ACETONITRILE
ACETOPHENONE
ACETYLSALICYLIC ACID
ACRYLIC ACID
ACTIVE CHARCOAL (POWDER)
ALANINE
ALLYL BENZENE
ALLYL CHLORIDE
ALLYL HEPTANOATE
ALUMINUM AND POTASSIUM SULFATE (12 H2O)
ALUMINUM CHLORIDE (6 H2O)
ALUMINUM IN BEADS
ALUMINUM ISOPROPOXIDE
ALUMINUM OXIDE
ALUMINUM POWDER
AMINOBENZOIC ACID (PARA)
AMINOBUTYRIC ACID (GABA)
AMMONIUM ACETATE
AMMONIUM BROMIDE
AMMONIUM CHLORIDE
AMMONIUM FLUORIDE
AMMONIUM HYDROXIDE 30%
AMMONIUM MOLIBDATE
ANHYDROUS ALUMINUM CHLORIDE
ANILINE CHLORIDE (PARA)
ANTIMONY OXIDE III
ANYSALDEHYDE
ASCORBIC ACID
BENZALDEHYDE (BENZOIC ALDEHYDE)
BENZENE
BENZOIC ACID
BENZOPHENONE
BENZOYL CHLORIDE
BENZYL NITRILE
BENZYLIC ALCOHOL
BORIC ACID
BROMIDIC ACID
BROMOTIMOL BLUE
BUTANODIOL-1,4
BUTESIN
BUTYL ALCOHOL
CALCIUM ACETATE
CALCIUM CARBONATE
CALCIUM CHLORIDE
CALCIUM HYDROXIDE
CALCIUM HYPOCLORITE 65%
CALCIUM OXIDE
CALCIUM PIRUVATE
CATHECOL
CHLOROACETAMIDE
CHLOROACETIC ACID
CHLOROBENZENE
CHLOROFORM
CHROMIC ANHYDRIDE
CINNAMYL ALCOHOL
CITRIC ACID
COBALT CHLORIDE II (6 H2O)
COPPER ACETATE II PA (1 H2O)
COPPER CHLORIDE I
COPPER CHLORIDE II
COPPER CYANIDE
COPPER POWDER
COPPER SULFATE (ICO) (5 H2O)
CYANURIC CHLORIDE
CYCLOHEXYLAMINE 99%
CYNAMIC ALDEHYDE (CINAMMALDEHYDE)
DIBASIC SODIUM PHOSPHATE (12 H2O)
DICLORO-2,3 DICIANO-5,6 BENZOQUINONE - DDQ
DIETHYL SULFATE
DIMETHOXYBENZALDEHYDE 2.5
DIMETHYL CARBONATE
DIMETHYLFORMAMIDE - DMF
DIMETHYLSULPHOXIDE 99% - DMSO
DODECANE-N
ETHYL ACETATE
ETHYL ACETOACETATE
ETHYL BROMIDE
ETHYL DIETHYL MALONATE
ETHYL ETHER 99.5%
ETHYLENE GLYCOL
EUGENOL
FLUOBORIC ACID 50%
FORMIC ACID
FORMIC ALDEHYDE (FORMALDEHYDE)
FORMYL PIPERIDINE-1
FURFURAL
GLACIAL ACETIC ACID
GLYCERIN 99.5%
GLYCINE
GLYCINE ETHYL ESTER (CHLORIDRATE)
GLYOXYLIC ACID
GRANULATED TIN (20 MESH)
GUAIACOL
HELIONAL
HEXAMETHYLENETETRAMINE - HEXAMINE - HMTA
HEXANE
HYDRAZINE SULFATE
HYDROCHLORIC ACID (30%) (37%)
HYDROGEN PEROXIDE 50% - 200 VOL
HYDROQUINONE
HYDROXYLAMINE CHLORIDRATE
HYDROXYLAMINE SULFATE
HYPOPHOSPHOROUS ACID 50%
IMIDAZOL
INDOL 99%
IODINE
IRON CHLORIDE III (ICO) (6 H2O)
IRON CHLORIDE III (ICO) PA ANHYDROUS
IRON SULFATE II (OSO) 7 H2O
ISOAMILIC ALCOHOL
ISOPROPENYL ACETATE
ISOPROPYL ALCOHOL
LACTIC ACID
LACTOSE
LITHIUM CHLORIDE
LUGOL 5%
MAGNESIUM
MAGNESIUM CHLORIDE
MAGNESIUM SULFATE ANHYDROUS
MANDELIC ACID
MANGANESE NITRATE (50%)
MANGANESE SULFATE
MERCURY 99.99%
MERCURY CHLORIDE II
METHYL ALCOHOL 99.8%
METHYL ANTRANILATE
METHYL ETHYL KETONE
Methyl iodide
METHYL PYRIDINE-2
METHYL SALICYLATE
Methylamine 40% aqueous
METHYLENE CHLORIDE
MINERAL OIL (LIQUID VASELINE)
MONOBASIC SODIUM PHOSPHATE (1 H2O)
MONOHYDRATED SODIUM HYPOPHOSPHITE
MORPHOLINE
N-BROMOSUCCINIMIDE
NICKEL CHLORIDE HEXAHYDRATE
NICKEL POWDER
NICOTINIC ACID
NIQUEL ACETATE II P.A (4 H2O)
NITROBENZENE
NITRO-BENZOIC ACID (PARA)
NITROETHANE
NITROMETHANE
NITROSTYRENE
N-METHYL 2 PYRROLIDONE
ORANGE METHYL
OXALIC ACID (2 H2O)
OXONE (POTASSIUM PEROXYMONOSULPHATE)
PARAFORMALDEHYDE
PENTANONE-2
PETROLEUM ETER (30 - 60 ºC)
PHENOL
PHENOLFTALEINA
PHENYL ETHYL ALCOHOL
PHENYL ETHYL PHENYL ACETATE
PHENYLACETIC ALDEHYDE (PHENYLACETALDEHYDE)
PHENYLALANINE (D)
PHENYLALANINE (DL)
PHENYLALANINOL (L)
PHOSPHORIC ACID 85%
Phosphorus Oxide - Phosphorus Pentoxide
PHTHALIC ANHYDRIDE
POTASSIUM BISSULFATE (HYDROGEN SULFATE)
POTASSIUM BROMATE
POTASSIUM BROMIDE
POTASSIUM CARBONATE
POTASSIUM CHLORIDE
POTASSIUM FERROCYANIDE (3 H2O)
POTASSIUM HYDROXIDE
POTASSIUM IODATE
POTASSIUM IODIDE
POTASSIUM MONOBASIC Anhydrous Phosphate
POTASSIUM NITRATE
POTASSIUM PERMANGANATE
POTASSIUM PERSULFATE
POTASSIUM TERT-BUTOXIDE
POTASSIUM THIOCYANATE
PROLINE (L)
PROPANOLOL CHLORIDRATE
PROPILENOGLICOL
PROPIONIC ACID
PROPYL ALCOHOL
PROPYL PHENYL ALCOHOL
PYPERONYL ALCOHOL
PYRIDINE
RED PHOSPHOROUS
REDUCED IRON 99%
SALICYLIC ACID
SILVER NITRATE
SODAMIDE
SODIUM
SODIUM ACETATE (3 H2O)
SODIUM AND BORON HYDRIDE
SODIUM BENZOATE
SODIUM BICARBONATE
SODIUM BISSULFITE
SODIUM CARBONATE
SODIUM CHLORATE
SODIUM CHLORIDE
SODIUM DICHROMATE
SODIUM DITIONITE
SODIUM ETHOXIDE
SODIUM HYDRIDE
SODIUM HYDROXIDE
SODIUM HYPOCLORITE 4-6%
SODIUM METHOXIDE
SODIUM METHOXIDE (METHANOL 30%)
SODIUM NITRATE
SODIUM NITRITE
SODIUM PERBORATE
SODIUM PERIODATE
sodium sulfate
SODIUM THOSULFATE (5 H2O)
SOLID VASELINE
STEARIC ACID
SUCCINIC ACID
SULFUR
SULFURIC ACID (96%)
SULPHAMIC ACID
SULPHANYLAMIDE
SULPHONIC TOLUENIC ACID (FOR)
SULPHUR Phosphide (PHOSPHOROUS PENTASULFIDE)
TARTARIC ACID- L (+)
TCCA (TRICLOROCIANURIC ACID)
TERT-BUTYL ALCOHOL (TERC-BUTYL)
TERT-BUTYLAMMONIUM BROMIDE - TBAB
TETRAHYDROFURAN - THF
THIOUREA
TIN CHLORIDE II
TIOGLYCOLIC ACID 97%
TOLUENE
TOSYL CHLORIDE
TOSYL HYDRAZIDE
TRIBASIC CALCIUM PHOSPHATE
TRIBASIC SODIUM PHOSPHATE (12 H2O)
TRICLOROETHYLENE
TRIETHYLAMINE - TEA
TRIFLUORACETIC ACID 99.8%
TRIHYDRATED LEAD ACETATE II
TRIPHYLPHOSPHINE
TROPINONE
UNDECILIC ALDEHYDE
UREA
VANILLIN
XYLENE
ZINC CHLORIDE
ZINC CYANIDE
ZINC OXIDE 99%
ZINC POWDER





Syn the Sizer - 1-3-2020 at 17:17

Well, that list is what I expect to have in the future lol, but with my current budget I gotta go slow lol.

DrIronic101 - 4-3-2020 at 12:00

As said above, conc. H2SO4 is an absolute MUST. From there you can make a wide variety of different acids and other reagents. Conc. HCl too.

For solvents, get a couple non-polar solvents (toluene/xylene, hexane, maybe diethyl ether). Benzene can be made from sodium benzoate. Some polar, organic solvents help too (ethanol, DMSO, glacial acetic acid).

Stock up on some reducing/oxidizing agents while you're at it. Zinc, nickel, NaBH4, KMnO4.

Syn the Sizer - 5-3-2020 at 04:46

Awesome, thanks.

I have been looking for H2SO4 drain cleaner but I can't find it anywhere in my city so I am going to have to order it. Sadly I am a student on a student loan who has been having a hell of a time finding part time work. So with the minimum orders and outrageous shipping costs ordering reagents I am SOL for chemistry for the time being.

Edit: I really should have considered that before posting this question lol.

[Edited on 5-3-2020 by Syn the Sizer]

[Edited on 5-3-2020 by Syn the Sizer]

Tsjerk - 5-3-2020 at 09:50

Can you get battery acid H2SO4? You can easily boil it down to over 90%

Syn the Sizer - 5-3-2020 at 12:01

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
Can you get battery acid H2SO4? You can easily boil it down to over 90%


I always forget about that route, I am going to inquire at a couple places here.

B.D.E - 8-3-2020 at 14:14

I personally struggled to locate most "OTC" chemicals. So what I did was to search for chemicals suppliers in my country, and sent emails to some of them. In those emails I've states that I'm a chemistry student with some lab experience, and that I want to purchase some reagents for my own personal research. I sent the mail from my academic email address and It worked. I now have access to cheap lab&technical grade reagents. I advice you to try doing it yourself. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Syn the Sizer - 8-3-2020 at 15:02

Quote: Originally posted by B.D.E  
I personally struggled to locate most "OTC" chemicals. So what I did was to search for chemicals suppliers in my country, and sent emails to some of them. In those emails I've states that I'm a chemistry student with some lab experience, and that I want to purchase some reagents for my own personal research. I sent the mail from my academic email address and It worked. I now have access to cheap lab&technical grade reagents. I advice you to try doing it yourself. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.


Great idea, I will research some companies and send some emails from my school email.

XeonTheMGPony - 10-3-2020 at 03:38

Well I have a handy trick for you for basic experiment that gives you 2 useful reagents.

This is how I build up supplies while having a bit of fun.

Plan for reactions that will give two useful reagents

If you take the effort to find Ammonium Nitrate (Some cold packs), to make azeotropic Nitric acid, you get both nitric acid and ammonium sulfate

and the Hydrolysis of Ethyl Acetate (Acetone free nail polish remover), you get Ethanol of high proof and Sodium Acetate

and the post work up is good for lab experience.

Syn the Sizer - 10-3-2020 at 04:50

Great suggestions I do have cold packs, I recently made some AlCl3 for something to do lol, as well as extracted ASA from commercial tablets. In Saskatchewan I am having issues finding OTC sources for stuff, Canadian Tire has some stuff like solvents, I am going to have to check a garden store wen the weather starts getting nicer.

Edit: I should mention the weather has been really nice here so I was able to do some stuff outside, I didn't do those in my kitchen.

[Edited on 10-3-2020 by Syn the Sizer]

Texium - 10-3-2020 at 09:55

It isn't really a "starter" list, but I did post what I consider to be a list of essential organic reagents to strive for if you're like me and prefer having things on hand rather than having to repeatedly make things or buy a new reagent every time you decide to try a new reaction. It's color coded, and a good place to start would be acquiring and/or synthesizing the "green" and "blue" chemicals on the list.

If you have comments specifically about my list, please post them in my thread to avoid crisscrossing the discussions: https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=80...

Syn the Sizer - 10-3-2020 at 10:15

Quote: Originally posted by Texium (zts16)  
It isn't really a "starter" list, but I did post what I consider to be a list of essential organic reagents to strive for if you're like me and prefer having things on hand rather than having to repeatedly make things or buy a new reagent every time you decide to try a new reaction. It's color coded, and a good place to start would be acquiring and/or synthesizing the "green" and "blue" chemicals on the list.

If you have comments specifically about my list, please post them in my thread to avoid crisscrossing the discussions: https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=80...


Awesome, thanks. I did a forum search before posting but I must have missed your entry.

I have been researching and watching videos and am still trying to consider what to synthesize. From there I will order what I need and start my own list, I will aim for it to be like yours or Chemi Pharma's list. I am the sort who would rather have what I need on hand, I found with my electronics hobby I would decided what I wanted to build then order my parts and wait, by the time I got them I forgot what I ordered them for lol.

Texium - 10-3-2020 at 12:26

Quote: Originally posted by Syn the Sizer  
I am the sort who would rather have what I need on hand, I found with my electronics hobby I would decided what I wanted to build then order my parts and wait, by the time I got them I forgot what I ordered them for lol.
Yes, that's exactly how I am. I come across papers or videos sometimes that sound really interesting, and I'm always more motivated to try out the procedures if I have everything I need on hand already and don't have to wait for a chemical to come in or have to synthesize all of the precursors before I can get started.

Syn the Sizer - 10-3-2020 at 14:55

Exactly, I mean synthesizing the precursors is fun and all but when you have a project in mind that's how many extra steps. With electronics its not as bad because some things you can build a suitable workaround until you get the parts, I used to code my Arduino to simulate logic IC's among other things, it works great to simulate a 555 time, but I digress.

I do plan on synthesizing what I can for now but hope to start being able to buy what I can't, if that makes sense.

XeonTheMGPony - 10-3-2020 at 16:32

Quote: Originally posted by Syn the Sizer  
Great suggestions I do have cold packs, I recently made some AlCl3 for something to do lol, as well as extracted ASA from commercial tablets. In Saskatchewan I am having issues finding OTC sources for stuff, Canadian Tire has some stuff like solvents, I am going to have to check a garden store wen the weather starts getting nicer.

Edit: I should mention the weather has been really nice here so I was able to do some stuff outside, I didn't do those in my kitchen.

[Edited on 10-3-2020 by Syn the Sizer]


I'm in sask, what you looking for? and where you abouts? can PM if you want.

Syn the Sizer - 10-3-2020 at 17:17

Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony  

I'm in sask, what you looking for? and where you abouts? can PM if you want.


Really, I'm in S'toon, I have been looking for sulfuric acid drain cleaner, copper sulfate, among other. I realize more will probably be available come spring when the snow melt and people are getting pools and gardens set up. I still have to try Home Depot and Early's.

If you also want to PM you can.


[Edited on 11-3-2020 by Syn the Sizer]

XeonTheMGPony - 11-3-2020 at 17:33

next time you go to Regina by hw16 bring a list and come for a coffee.

I have a surplus of copper sulfate I'd be happy to share and a few other non ship able things to give ya a healthy jump start.

Mcmun&yates has sulfuric drain cleaner, peavy has a good strong cleaning ammonia with out any garbage in it.

Health stores with soap making is a great source for KOH, NaOH, Glycerin, Magnesium oxide, and a good few other goodies.

Wally world you can get tech grade sodium bromide, not much cheaper by ebay.
the town near me has a fair bit of good chems in it actually.

I scored several liters of formalin!

Syn the Sizer - 11-3-2020 at 21:20

Awesome thanks a lot man. I have been wanting to get KOH but didn't realize you could buy it OTC, I saw the sodium bromide at Walmart but didn't have the money for it along with the other stuff I needed. I found my glycerine from when I used to vape, 350ml unopened bottle. I will check around again for things.

clearly_not_atara - 12-3-2020 at 08:24

It's probably good to prioritize finding a source for dichloromethane. It's very hard to synthesize but it's a very useful solvent—much less flammable than comparable nonpolar solvents like Et2O, EtOAc or toluene.

Oxalic acid and paraformaldehyde are probably around; you'll want them.

You also probably want magnesium, chromium, manganese, copper and zinc. Only magnesium need be metallic for most purposes. Lithium (metallic), silver, tungsten, indium, tin and lead are harder to find but can be very useful. I assume you know where to get iron.

[Edited on 12-3-2020 by clearly_not_atara]

XeonTheMGPony - 12-3-2020 at 16:15

hot water tank electrodes for aluminium tanks is magnesium! I have a massive chunk here.

Syn the Sizer - 12-3-2020 at 16:27

I have checked a few places for oxalic acid in the paint and deck stain section and I can't find any, when I ask for wood bleach, they get me some environmentally friendly crap. I have found a decent distributor who has DCM for cheap but with delivery charges and minimum orders that out of the question until I find a part time job.
I plan on getting metals and whatnot but at the moment I can only really afford OTC stuff, most distributors have large minimum package sizes, minimum orders and outrageous shipping costs and I am just a student on student loan who has been having a bitch of a time finding work.

Cou - 12-3-2020 at 16:42

Much better to buy salicylic acid. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=mystic+moments+salicylic+acid&...

Syn the Sizer - 12-3-2020 at 18:11

Quote: Originally posted by Cou  
Much better to buy salicylic acid. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=mystic+moments+salicylic+acid&...


I just recrystallized a bunch of ASA I extracted lol, next to salicylic acid.

XeonTheMGPony - 13-3-2020 at 02:52

what glass wear do you have

and I have a couple eBay suppliers who have proven to be cheap and honest.

Syn the Sizer - 13-3-2020 at 09:34

As far as glassware goes I have some, Liebig condenser, Allihn condenser, Graham condenser, and vigreaux condenser, 2 still heads, 2 105o adapters, 1-75o adapter, 1-1L 1 neck RB, 1-1L 2 neck RB, 1-500mL 3 neck RB, and 1-250mL 2 neck RB. 24/40 joint. 1-250mL sep funnel, stoppers, keck clips and 2 thermometers. I got them from Ding Glassware on Amazon, for $260CDN. I also have some beakers, and a fritted buchner with 1L EM flask, I don't have a vac pump but I use saran wrap over the top like a diaphragm and press on it it, pushes liquid through. I do plan on getting a vac pump, I would like a refrigeration vac pump, most are designed to take acid vapours. I figured if I had the money the first investment should be glassware then worry about reagents later, reagents are almost useless without reaction vessels. I also have hot plate/stirrer, a couple stands, titanium stir bars.

njl - 13-3-2020 at 09:51

@Xeon would you be so kind as to bless us with that knowledge

XeonTheMGPony - 13-3-2020 at 17:36

Refrigeration pumps do not take acid at all!!! need to use a good scrubber, if you have a water cooler that some one is tossing and it isn't a pelt type you can mod the compressor to run fine, still need a scrubber but it is a cheap quiet moderately deep (25inches of Mercury) vacuum pump.


If the cooler is 134a just hack it out! (They sell the gas as air duster here <_< ) Wash the compressor out with isopropyl alcohol, you want to get all the traces of the old lubricant out of there, then charge it with 150ml to 250ml of 30 weight oil.

Make a catch jar for the outlet to recover any spit oil and simply recycle back into the suction.

One day if you wanted we could build one up. Hell I have a compressor laying about I'm sure.

A cheap rotary vane unit off ebay, should pull 500 microns nominal, most will do better 25 microns average. Same warning though, a good cold trap and gas scrubber will make for a happy long lived pump, that or very frequent oil changes, and warming it up helps too.

With that kit you're pretty well set, the vigreaux isn't a condenser per say rather a rectifying column.

A simple "cryo-trap", can be made with some pipe and scrubbies and a Styrofoam cup or a thermos, fill it with 1, 2, difloroethan (152a) or commonly known as air duster. Or a second modified water cooler, by soldering the coils on a larger chunk of copper pipe then embedding in spray foam, fill it with alcohol of choice then insert the trap in the cold bath.

[Edited on 14-3-2020 by XeonTheMGPony]

Syn the Sizer - 13-3-2020 at 19:55

When I worked at Gateway we had vac pumps that were designed for acid vapours, maybe they were specialized because we did a lot of old Safeway systems and the Safeway in P.A. had major acid issues in the system, it was still running R22, they had to replace charcoal filter dryers like crazy, I am sure you know how much of a hassle it is.

R134a is mostly harmless still a GW issue with a GWP of ~550 but an ODP of 0. Refrigerants is one of the industries I am considering after school, 2020 HCFC are fazed out, goodbye R22. There still aren't any really suitable replacements. CO2 is what some businesses are moving to, I used to work on a CO2 system in a newer Sobeys here. The problem is CO2 has a super high standing pressure so if the system goes down you either need a 2nd system keeping the receiver tank really cold so the gas migrates there and keep pressure down, as well as a pressure release so you don't blow the system up. CO2 is cheap if you lose your charge and only has a GWP of 1 and no ODP, but to recharge an entire grocery store every few months is a pain, plus you need to slowly charge the system up to 150 psi or you form dry ice in the lines which prevents further charging until it thaws, once you hit 150 psi let 'er rip. So from an environmental standpoint its a great option but in practice it isn't.

Yah I would definitely be up for building a pump at some point, I have seen a few used in videos on Youtube.

Good catch on the vigreaux, I meant column lol. At the moment I have nothing I need to fractionally distill so I have it wrapped and packed away, same as the Graham condenser.

XeonTheMGPony - 14-3-2020 at 04:38

Quote: Originally posted by Syn the Sizer  
When I worked at Gateway we had vac pumps that were designed for acid vapours, maybe they were specialized because we did a lot of old Safeway systems and the Safeway in P.A. had major acid issues in the system, it was still running R22, they had to replace charcoal filter dryers like crazy, I am sure you know how much of a hassle it is.

R134a is mostly harmless still a GW issue with a GWP of ~550 but an ODP of 0. Refrigerants is one of the industries I am considering after school, 2020 HCFC are fazed out, goodbye R22. There still aren't any really suitable replacements. CO2 is what some businesses are moving to, I used to work on a CO2 system in a newer Sobeys here. The problem is CO2 has a super high standing pressure so if the system goes down you either need a 2nd system keeping the receiver tank really cold so the gas migrates there and keep pressure down, as well as a pressure release so you don't blow the system up. CO2 is cheap if you lose your charge and only has a GWP of 1 and no ODP, but to recharge an entire grocery store every few months is a pain, plus you need to slowly charge the system up to 150 psi or you form dry ice in the lines which prevents further charging until it thaws, once you hit 150 psi let 'er rip. So from an environmental standpoint its a great option but in practice it isn't.

Yah I would definitely be up for building a pump at some point, I have seen a few used in videos on Youtube.

Good catch on the vigreaux, I meant column lol. At the moment I have nothing I need to fractionally distill so I have it wrapped and packed away, same as the Graham condenser.


IN those systems with moisture you'd get trace HCL, but that would mostly been reacted to the copper (Hence copper plating in the compressor. And in HFC type systems it is a weak organic acid from the POE oils, R-22 was common for Alkylbenzen type oils.

I have 4 pounds R-22 (2 Virgin) and some R-12 I keep for personal use.

I'm a personal fan of an Ammonia primary with a glycol secondary, lets you keep the plant in a safe remote area that is easier to service and safe, given that topology Propane is amazing gas for the cycle, low heads, excellent oil transport, very good low end pressures, but in a world where people screw up operating a light switch they are terrified of every thing I lament!

For a few friends I converted their older air cons to R-290 with a glycol secondary loop and strict instructions on what never to do, last I heard they where doing well.

CO2 is a royal pain for reasons you listed above, massive wasted space for buffer tanks and the high pressures demand very good seals on every thing.

I really dislike DX systems now days, when ever I can I push for a glycol secondary optimize that, then any repairs inside the building become way simpler for end user, and then the plant can be made service tech friendly, and much less piping to sod up.

But back to the topic at hand, you remember how often you had to flush and replace the oil in that vac pump? Oft! I'd preheat mine with the torch then fire it up, really helped keep the oil from water logging on DX chillers when they had an HX rupture (The one caveat of glycol secondaries, never, never go cheap on the main HXs!!!)

Syn the Sizer - 14-3-2020 at 08:48

Yep, and the previous company that looked after that Safeway didn't care about the system and really let it go to crap. The sad thing was that was one of the Franchised stores and not corporate so most of the cost of repairs fell on the owner of the store and not Safeway itself, It was a PA store so the store had poor revenue and the system continued to degrade. Gateway took over and it was to the point of needing replacement, it leaked like crazy and full of acid, I wonder if it still runs like that. The didn't like paying for maintenance either so they only got their condensers cleaned once a year, when I was a new employee I had that task. the fins were so clogged with feathers and other organic solids I couldn't get them fully cleaned and they had 3 sprinklers running on it at all times to keep it cool. Really the store should have been shut down.

I agree ammonia is a great options specially for industrial application and skating rinks, and of course a separate glycol circuit is a must, with ammonia you want a remote-ish compressor house, the last thing you need is a factory or skating rink full of ammonia vapour.

I have heard stories of people supplementing pool heating with heat from A/C condensers in a pseudo heat pump, but of course a leak is inevitable and you always ended up with chlorinated H2O in the system and a huge repair cost. How would glycol work? At least if a leak sprung you would just end up with water in the glycol loop though glycol in the pool might not be good, and I guess like you said there is always the risk of a glycol leak into the refrigerant.

I never had to use my pump so I never changed oil but the guys who did changed theirs monthly at a minimum. In school we changed the oil once but we also only used them a few times, I think they just got us to change it as part of the training,

XeonTheMGPony - 15-3-2020 at 04:29

Quote: Originally posted by Syn the Sizer  
Yep, and the previous company that looked after that Safeway didn't care about the system and really let it go to crap. The sad thing was that was one of the Franchised stores and not corporate so most of the cost of repairs fell on the owner of the store and not Safeway itself, It was a PA store so the store had poor revenue and the system continued to degrade. Gateway took over and it was to the point of needing replacement, it leaked like crazy and full of acid, I wonder if it still runs like that. The didn't like paying for maintenance either so they only got their condensers cleaned once a year, when I was a new employee I had that task. the fins were so clogged with feathers and other organic solids I couldn't get them fully cleaned and they had 3 sprinklers running on it at all times to keep it cool. Really the store should have been shut down.

I agree ammonia is a great options specially for industrial application and skating rinks, and of course a separate glycol circuit is a must, with ammonia you want a remote-ish compressor house, the last thing you need is a factory or skating rink full of ammonia vapour.

I have heard stories of people supplementing pool heating with heat from A/C condensers in a pseudo heat pump, but of course a leak is inevitable and you always ended up with chlorinated H2O in the system and a huge repair cost. How would glycol work? At least if a leak sprung you would just end up with water in the glycol loop though glycol in the pool might not be good, and I guess like you said there is always the risk of a glycol leak into the refrigerant.

I never had to use my pump so I never changed oil but the guys who did changed theirs monthly at a minimum. In school we changed the oil once but we also only used them a few times, I think they just got us to change it as part of the training,


It is called De-super heating, you take advantage of the high discharge temp to perform ancillary heating jobs and at the same time economize your Carnot cycle.

It is a win win for saving energy at the cost of slight complexity increase and an additional failure point.

One guy came up with a creative solution to isolate the circuits by using a thermo siphon set up. used a high boiling point substance, can't remember, so in the event of a water side rupture it would never make it to the discharge side exchanger.

Poor vac pump maintenance is endemic it seems, preheating helped to reduce the need of it, and for normal system maintenance there isn't any real contamination, but for a bad burn out or heavy moisture in the system you should change it out after as even if you can't see it it is loaded with contaminants that will gank the pump! Why would they care when company issued, as they will just ask it be replaced.

Well maintained a good vac pump is for life! Unless you have meth heads around, then it is for as long as you keep armed guard over it.

Syn the Sizer - 16-3-2020 at 08:59

That's a great idea, keeps the unit isolated from moisture.

I always thought they should change the oil more often too. Many vapours are soluble in the oil. I could see though how heating the pump would reduce the contamination, specially if you were only pulling down a small system and not running it long enough to build its own heat. The heat plus lower viscosity would reduce solubility.

I prefer to keep my equipment in top shape, even if its company supplied. When I worked at the Cat dealer I was the main hose assembler for for several branches. I hated when people would use my tools because they didn't respect them. I would come back on a Monday if I didn't work the weekend and my tools would be all over, sometimes missing, my hose protractor bent or busted. I didn't pay for them but I needed them for my job. I was happy when I got moved to core inspection/returns I had a locked drawer for my tools and any specialty tools were in the tool crib.

Syn the Sizer - 15-4-2020 at 22:33

Which nickle salt should I get? Nickle (II) chloride or nickle (II) sulfate? Is one more useful than the other. The prices are basically the same by mass. Would the chloride be better because I would get more moles of ionic Ni?

Corrosive Joeseph - 16-4-2020 at 05:17

Depends on what you want it for.... If it was me, I would go for Nickel(II)acetate.


/CJ

Syn the Sizer - 16-4-2020 at 08:15

Quote: Originally posted by Corrosive Joeseph  

Depends on what you want it for.... If it was me, I would go for Nickel(II)acetate.


/CJ


I was also considering Nickle (II) acetate. I am just building my reagent list and I don't have any nickle salts so was considering which is most useful.

Thanks for the input.

Corrosive Joeseph - 16-4-2020 at 09:10

If you are planning any reductions using nickel boride P-1 or the (pseudo)Urushibara, it has proven to be the most active.


/CJ

Cou - 16-4-2020 at 10:59

A chemistry lab without concentrated sulfuric acid is like a Mediterranean kitchen without olive oil. xD

[Edited on 16-4-2020 by Cou]

Syn the Sizer - 16-4-2020 at 14:08

Quote: Originally posted by Cou  
A chemistry lab without concentrated sulfuric acid is like a Mediterranean kitchen without olive oil. xD

[Edited on 16-4-2020 by Cou]


Lol, I agree. I got my sulfuric acid now 1L 98%, I have started getting a decent selection of reagents.

Another question does potassium sorbate or sorbic acid have a use in the lab? I was going through my brewing stuff and found 50g of potassium sorbate, turn about 20g into sorbic acid, more for the magic of the viewers to see 2 clear liquids form a paste before their eyes.

paulll - 1-10-2020 at 16:45

If you're still looking for H2SO4 drain cleaner (that 1L probably won't last forever lol), Home Hardware stocks it. The red stuff in the clear bottle.

karlos³ - 1-10-2020 at 18:13

Quote: Originally posted by Syn the Sizer  
Quote: Originally posted by Corrosive Joeseph  

Depends on what you want it for.... If it was me, I would go for Nickel(II)acetate.


/CJ


I was also considering Nickle (II) acetate. I am just building my reagent list and I don't have any nickle salts so was considering which is most useful.

Thanks for the input.

Nah, don't buy a specific nickle salt directly.
I am simply using nickel(II) carbonate, pottery grade.
From this stuff on you can make whatever salt you have in mind, which is what I do, actually only either the chloride or acetate, but it is much cheaper than any other salt when bought directly.
And likely most easiest to access.

So in short, this is by far the most useful of any nickle salts you could possibly have on hand.
In my opinion.
Quote: Originally posted by Cou  
A chemistry lab without concentrated sulfuric acid is like a Mediterranean kitchen without olive oil. xD

Absolutely true...
Though it really hit a spot, since I went out of sulfuric acid three days ago and now I'm frantically thinking and planning with the sulfuric acid ban in mind to be coming soon, too soon actually :o
Stupid EU bureaucracy!
A canister, 5l at least, is what I'm thinking...
I mean, people buy olive oil in 5l canisters too, no? At least I've heard some do.... :D