Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Most toxic compound OTC?

Most toxic compound OTC?

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Refinery - 23-5-2020 at 10:26

Just came up in my mind, what would be the most toxic compound that a common person can buy in any reasonable quantity without any special requirements?

By toxicity I mean either low LD50 or chronic toxicity that will lead to serious harm to health.

njl - 23-5-2020 at 10:34

Many insecticides, radioisotopes, alkaloids, and commodity chemicals. Sodium isocyanate (pool chemical) can be reduced with carbon to sodium cyanide etc.

UC235 - 23-5-2020 at 10:45

Rodent poisons, probably. Superwarfarins like brodifacoum. 9mo half life in the body, the antidote is almost constant Vitamin K intake until it's been eliminated. Granted, it's not sold pure, but highly diluted into baits, but still.

mackolol - 23-5-2020 at 10:46

Lithium salts along with some psychedelic lets say... morning glory seeds. This would be pretty tough shittt

TheMrbunGee - 23-5-2020 at 11:10

Nicotine.. LD50 of 127 mg/kg when administered to mice. And now when vaping is so common, It is quite easy to get. But I have hear that the lethal dose may be higher, than given.

B(a)P - 23-5-2020 at 12:37

Botulinum toxin, not that you can get them OTC, but you can get them injected into your face. LD50 5 ng/kg of body weight.
Bitumen contains benzo(a)pyrene it has an LD50 of 50 mg/kg of body weight. However, 50 ug/kg of body weight is tumour inducing.

clearly_not_atara - 23-5-2020 at 13:58

Without additional chemical modification, I think the answer is probably the americium-241 used in smoke detectors.

A typical smoke detector contains 0.29 micrograms of 241Am with an activity of 1 microcurie and a decay energy of 7.5 MeV. The decay energy of 210Po for comparison is 5.4 MeV but the activity per gram is much higher.

The toxicity of radioactive substances can be roughly characterized by giving the dose in curies (activity) rather than in grams. The half-life of 210Po is about 1160 times as long as the half-life of 241Am so we expect the lethal dose to be that much higher. The lethal dose of 210Po is about 1 microgram so our estimate for the lethal dose of 241Am is about 1.2 mg, which is the amount of radioactive material in 4000 smoke detectors.

TheMrbunGee - 23-5-2020 at 14:00

Quote: Originally posted by B(a)P

Botulinum toxin, not that you can get them OTC, but you can get them injected into your face. LD50 5 ng/kg of body weight.

I gave botox a little research, seems like a vial of botox "filler" has 100 "units" which correlates to LD50 for 100 mice. About 5ng of toxin in the vial, and they charge 10-15 united dollars of America per "unit", so it will cost about 90 000 of these dollars to get a lethal dose.

Source

You can also get thallium compounds off ebay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Thallium-Bromoiodide-Window-KRS5-1-...

[Edited on 23-5-2020 by TheMrbunGee]

B(a)P - 23-5-2020 at 14:16

Looks like it might also be in the running for most expensive toxin.

Fulmen - 23-5-2020 at 14:43

Why not look at this in terms of total effect? As in the largest number of "lethal doses" one could amass without detection?

G-Coupled - 23-5-2020 at 19:02

Quote: Originally posted by TheMrbunGee

Nicotine.. LD50 of 127 mg/kg when administered to mice. And now when vaping is so common, It is quite easy to get. But I have hear that the lethal dose may be higher, than given.

It would appear that the LD50 in humans for Nicotine is actually quite a bit higher than has been thought for many years.

Apparently, Nicotine's 'massive toxicity' was based on some rather sketchy experiments in the 1800s, and more modern studies have shown it's nowhere near as lethal as was thought. :cool:

j_sum1 - 23-5-2020 at 19:44

Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen

Why not look at this in terms of total effect? As in the largest number of "lethal doses" one could amass without detection?

That's the problem with this kind of discussion. It is very hard to compare like with like.
I bet I could do a short car trip around a few hardware stores and pool suppliers in my area and end up with a couple of hundred kg of calcium hypochlorite: and not raise any eyebrows - at least not immediately. Without looking it up that should be sufficient to kill a lot of people. The difficulty would be in getting them to ingest it. Does that make it more or less toxic than smoke detector tea?

outer_limits - 23-5-2020 at 21:12

Amatoxins are pretty strong and deadly

draculic acid69 - 23-5-2020 at 23:05

One can buy castor beans quite easily

dawt - 23-5-2020 at 23:24

Quote: Originally posted by TheMrbunGee

Holy shit. My dad used to do quality control for a company that produced botox. One day he brought home a whole box of vials to show us, just for the shits and giggles. He had been tasked with poking holes into each and every one of them in order to measure the pressure and composition of the gas inside. Must've been 200 vials. The contents of that box was probably worth more than our house before he poked em all full of holes O_O

[Edited on 2020-5-24 by dawt]

Tsjerk - 24-5-2020 at 00:18

I'm growing Aconitum, Ricinus, Conium and Datura spp. right now. All seeds were OTC, only the Aconitum seeds I bought didn't germinate, so I bought it as a plant at the garden centre.

I'm planning to extract all the toxins, except for the ricin, I will just put a couple of beans on display.

Edit: I harvested some Heracleum spp. from next to the channel 500 meters from my place. This is the one I'm a bit afraid of... As the furanocoumarins are contract poisons, at least in combination with UVA.

[Edited on 24-5-2020 by Tsjerk]

karlos³ - 24-5-2020 at 00:48

Yeah ricinus trees are very beautiful.
And the datura are hard to get rid off once they made theirself a home in the garden... they show up in spots nobody would've expected them!

Tsjerk - 24-5-2020 at 01:40

I read about the Datura being stubborn indeed, therefore they are a pot on my roof terras, no chance for them to grow anywhere there. Ricinus is very nice I have the communis var. 'Carmencitas Bright Red'.

mackolol - 24-5-2020 at 03:07

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk

Edit: I harvested some Heracleum spp. from next to the channel 500 meters from my place. This is the one I'm a bit afraid of... As the furanocoumarins are contract poisons, at least in combination with UVA.

[Edited on 24-5-2020 by Tsjerk]

Are you kidding? This plant is super invasive and very dangerous. And it is illegal to plant it. I really doubt if you would operate with whis plant safely. I have Heracleum "infected" field not far from my house and it is very tough and stubborn to kill plant. It also grows and spreads everywhere like crazy.
Better make some furanocoumarins in lab

unionised - 24-5-2020 at 04:34

Ricin got a mention so...
"Symptoms are identical to those of ricin, except abrin is more toxic by almost two orders of magnitude; the fatal dose of abrin is approximately 1/75 that of the fatal dose of ricin"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrus_precatorius
is occasionally OTC when somebody fails to stop it.
https://www.torfaen.gov.uk/en/News/2012/March/20-Deadly-seed...

Refinery - 24-5-2020 at 04:37

These heracleum bastard plants, giant hogweeds have spread all over here and they have been warned on the national news level.

Tsjerk - 24-5-2020 at 06:59

The Heracleum I'm not growing, I harvested it and dried the plant material to isolate the furanocoumarins from. The city government apparently doesn't really put a lot of effort into eradicating the plants here. The are growing in the middle of the city in places with a lot of playing kids around.

yobbo II - 24-5-2020 at 17:46

Heroin is extremely toxic particularly if you are not used to it. It's not exactly over the counter but if you were to ask the low life drug dealer to stand the far side of a counter when they are selling it to you it is.

Yob

Ubya - 25-5-2020 at 00:07

here in italy you can find oleander plants in every corner of every city, they are hardy plants, and have nice flowers. i could fill my home with leaves before anyone would ever notice.

Herr Haber - 25-5-2020 at 03:23

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk

The Heracleum I'm not growing, I harvested it and dried the plant material to isolate the furanocoumarins from. The city government apparently doesn't really put a lot of effort into eradicating the plants here. The are growing in the middle of the city in places with a lot of playing kids around.

Good to read this. This plant grows everywhere all over Europe or am I mistaken ?
I have probably litterally mowed fields of them as a kid with a stick.

To go back to the topic, you all seem to have a different meaning for "OTC" and the notion depends on where you are in the world. Also, OTC means a much different thing for us than for non chemist who are not interested in what's really in the bottle.

Though it's not as toxic as other OTC products I'd go for bleach.
Not for itself but for the potential it has to be toxic when mixed with... well, just about any other OTC chemical products.

G-Coupled - 25-5-2020 at 03:43

Quote: Originally posted by yobbo II

Heroin is extremely toxic particularly if you are not used to it. It's not exactly over the counter but if you were to ask the low life drug dealer to stand the far side of a counter when they are selling it to you it is.

Yob

Not really that 'toxic' IMO - more of a case of 'the dose makes the poison'. It often takes 100mg or more to kill an opiate naive person AFAIK.

TheMrbunGee - 25-5-2020 at 07:14

Quote: Originally posted by G-Coupled

Quote: Originally posted by yobbo II

Not really that 'toxic' IMO - more of a case of 'the dose makes the poison'. It often takes 100mg or more to kill an opiate naive person AFAIK.

Also, Can one slip it into a drink? Or it must be IV, because few ml's of plain air injected into bloodstream is also lethal, isn't it?

Refinery - 25-5-2020 at 07:35

Many drugs have surprisingly small lethal dosages for the uninitiated. Even few tens of mg of pure product can cause complications that lead to death or permanent damage if untreated.

And not speaking of the really hc ones, like fentanyl. Carfentanil is pretty much a contact poison.

A second tier question could be, what is the most toxic compound that can be made without special skill from otc materials. I would vote Na/K Cyanide.

Tsjerk - 25-5-2020 at 08:13

Injecting air isn't advisable for anyone, but a few milliliters won't hurt. This myth comes from the famous caisson disease, but in the case of sudden decompression the blood is (over) saturated with nitrogen, which is not, or less, the case under normal conditions.

Under normal conditions air will quickly dissolve in the blood, or at least a couple milliliters will.

karlos³ - 25-5-2020 at 08:49

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk

Injecting air isn't advisable for anyone, but a few milliliters won't hurt. This myth comes from the famous caisson disease, but in the case of sudden decompression the blood is (over) saturated with nitrogen, which is not, or less, the case under normal conditions.

Under normal conditions air will quickly dissolve in the blood, or at least a couple milliliters will.

I have a port canule implanted in my chest for medical use, and on occasion I started an infusion while forgetting to allow the drip to run to the end of the tube before.
So it must be around, lets say 3-5ml of air that suddenly enter the bloodstream.
You feel actually nothing, but I can hear it bubbling directly into my chest and ears, and it sounds funny.

G-Coupled - 25-5-2020 at 09:50

Quote: Originally posted by TheMrbunGee

Quote: Originally posted by G-Coupled

Quote: Originally posted by yobbo II

Not really that 'toxic' IMO - more of a case of 'the dose makes the poison'. It often takes 100mg or more to kill an opiate naive person AFAIK.

Also, Can one slip it into a drink? Or it must be IV, because few ml's of plain air injected into bloodstream is also lethal, isn't it?

As others have mentioned, it's pretty much a myth that small air bubbles are lethal when injected - it would take a pretty huge and unrealistic air embolism to kill someone.

And Heroin can't really be slipped into a drink for the same effects due to it's very poor oral bioavailability (<10-15%) and that it's absorbed as regular Morphine (which is around 2.4x less potent than Heroin) due to extensive first pass metabolism.

So, practically you'd have to drink around 2.5g of Heroin to have the same effect as 100mg does administered IV.

[Edited on 25-5-2020 by G-Coupled]

Tsjerk - 25-5-2020 at 12:25

Wikipedia states oral bio-availability to be >35%, compared to 46% for inhaled (highest bio-availablity, higher than IV). Heroin is metabolized to morphine anyway. What you are talking about sounds like the "rush" effect of heroin to me, rather than the bio-available morphine which is the actual toxic component of heroin.

Apparently high oral dosages of heroin give a higher bio-availability in naive patients than the same amount of oral morphine does.

So lets assume 200 mg of morphine is deadly for a naive patient, 200 mg of oral heroin should also be deadly, or even less, as it is more available than morphine. It doesn't matter whether you administer IV or orally, as the delay of the oral route is only about half an hour, while the half-live of morphine is 2-3 hours.

Heroin Wiki

Overdose morphine

G-Coupled - 25-5-2020 at 12:44

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk

Wikipedia states oral bio-availability to be >35%, compared to 46% for inhaled (highest bio-availablity, higher than IV)...

Wouldn't the bioavailability of IV Heroin be virtually 100%?

Tsjerk - 25-5-2020 at 14:01

Morphine and 6-MAM are not active in the blood, so no. If the definition of bioavailability would be serum concentration, yes, but in the case of opiates serum concentrations are not that relevant.

G-Coupled - 25-5-2020 at 14:31

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk

Morphine and 6-MAM are not active in the blood, so no. If the definition of bioavailability would be serum concentration, yes, but in the case of opiates serum concentrations are not that relevant.

So what's the numbers on the bioavailability of IV Heroin?

Also, Wikipedia states the bioavailability of the Methadone as being 100% which seems to contradict what you wrote regarding the bioavailability of opiates/opioids.

And I'm pretty much absolutely positive that IV Heroin has a much greater effect than when it is vaporised.

[Edited on 25-5-2020 by G-Coupled]

TheMrbunGee - 25-5-2020 at 15:32

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk

I read into it and about 300ml will kill quite surely, but as little as 20 ml can be lethal, if it goes to the "right" place. And any amount can be dangerous, but yeah, it is way less dangerous as my grandmother used to tell me when I was little.

So 300mg of air IV can kill, which is actually less than heroin. Deadly stuff.

karlos³ - 25-5-2020 at 15:57

300ml!

Oh wow who would even inject that amount without having a definite intention to kill in mind?
Deadly OTC air, we should ban it, or at least let the people pay taxes on it

I think its the vena subclavia in my case, and that really is a major vene .
And as said, 5ml of air, that only resulted in bubbling in my chest and ears... but to be honest, that is quite a scary thing when you have it the first time, I was quite shocked...

mackolol - 26-5-2020 at 12:24

If we're talking about OTC compund to be easily made, for me nitrogen mustard wins. Just purchase triethanolamine and chlorinate it. The way how it acts is beyond traditional poisons.

brubei - 26-5-2020 at 12:43

Nicotine solution

unionised - 26-5-2020 at 13:17

In terms of "the chemical that kills most people" ethyl alcohol probably wins.

G-Coupled - 26-5-2020 at 13:17

Quote: Originally posted by brubei

Nicotine solution

Nicotine has already been mentioned - it's not nearly as toxic to humans as was thought for many years.

Eddie Current - 14-6-2020 at 04:48

Quote: Originally posted by Refinery

Many drugs have surprisingly small lethal dosages for the uninitiated. Even few tens of mg of pure product can cause complications that lead to death or permanent damage if untreated.

And not speaking of the really hc ones, like fentanyl. Carfentanil is pretty much a contact poison.

Indeed. Some perspective on lethal doseage (see image):

https://www.labconco.com/articles/the-problem-with-fentanyl

Quote: Originally posted by Refinery

A second tier question could be, what is the most toxic compound that can be made without special skill from otc materials. I would vote Na/K Cyanide.

NaF + H2SO4?

[Edited on 14-6-2020 by Eddie Current]

Mateo_swe - 14-6-2020 at 06:54

How about Salvinorin A?
It is the main active psychotropic molecule in Salvia divinorum, that are legally sold and grown in many parts of the world.
Salvinorin A is active at doses as low as 200 µg.
LSD is active in about 20–30 µg doses but arent found in nature and isnt available legally.
And one can easily extract the Salvinorin A from the salvia D. plant and make a huge dose.
I dont know if there are any LD50 figures for Salvinorin A.
Some derivatives are ten times stronger than salvinorin A with an active dose of about 20µg.
Thats some potent stuff.

njl - 14-6-2020 at 07:09

Salvinorin is potent but as you said there's basically no data that I've seen on its toxicity so it really isn't relevant to this thread. I am still voting cyanide. While HF is scary as fuck I think it's an order of magnitude less toxic than cyanide. That said, ketene is actually somewhat otc, no? Not OTC enough to produce a useful amount with no knowledge or equipment, but probably OTC enough to kill yourself by accident.

Refinery - 14-6-2020 at 11:27

Ketene could be actually easier to synthesize than cyanide salts. The process itself appears to be pretty much straightforward when initiated.

The base for both is same: make a thermal insulated oven from ceramic wool.

Wound a helicoil of SS tube inside of it, heat it with propane burner to cherry red(800C), and distill acetone through it, and out comes ketene. It can be then used as preferred. Not sure if this simple setup could be used to produce any useful quantities of acetic anhydride, but conceptually distilling a few liters through a tube should not be any bigger trouble than just plain distilling acetone itself.

Cyanide forms just in a simple crucible from otc reagents that is preferably protected from air at same temp. Difference between them is that HF and ketene are highly volatile and hence temporary, but cyanide salts are very stable and long lasting and can be readily manipulated even in any quantity.

mackolol - 14-6-2020 at 11:55

Quote: Originally posted by Mateo_swe

How about Salvinorin A?
It is the main active psychotropic molecule in Salvia divinorum, that are legally sold and grown in many parts of the world.
Salvinorin A is active at doses as low as 200 µg.
LSD is active in about 20–30 µg doses but arent found in nature and isnt available legally.
And one can easily extract the Salvinorin A from the salvia D. plant and make a huge dose.
I dont know if there are any LD50 figures for Salvinorin A.
Some derivatives are ten times stronger than salvinorin A with an active dose of about 20µg.
Thats some potent stuff.

I doubt that salvinorin is toxic. It can cause hard trip, but it's not harmful.

draculic acid69 - 14-6-2020 at 22:30

Quote: Originally posted by Mateo_swe

Derivatives of a herbal extract are neither common nor otc and if ingested would most likely just result in a long intense trip

Abromination - 15-6-2020 at 10:16

Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk

We dont have giant hogweed here as far as I know, but we do have native haracleum, “cow parsnip.” I wouldn’t think of it as particularly toxic, but the burns are really quite unpleasant. I personally think its a very ugly plant, hearing that people grow it is interesting. I have found brush clearing involving haracleum to be irritating to the nose and eyes, even though contact is avoided.

Fantasma4500 - 20-6-2020 at 11:16

azides
nicotine (much more potent than cyanide)
methyl mercury (now i wont get into how thats easily made, and i havent confirmed how this is made, nightmare chemical that no chemist ever wants to deal with)
hydrazine from bleach and ammonia (yes its not the only product but supposedly one huff would leave you suffering for a few days until youre out)
insulin (i cant remember mechanism but its quite serious stuff if youre not diabetic -- unless administrated sublingually)
H2S, now the fancy thing about this is that at high ppm you cant smell it anymore, so you just end up dying from seemingly nothing
carbon monoxide - very readily available, very sneaky. ive been close to dying from this once, my solution was to just go outside and sit down for half an hour, your brain starts feeling kinda numb and your vision will darken

not quite sure why im seeing people talking about LSD here, i believe as much as 250mg was accidentally snorted as it was confused with cocaine, 2 smartasses pulled that one and survived it. if we really have to talk about drugs fentanyl would be obvious candidate, notorious for having been mixed with xanax, even in my little town it has just recently caused death, for reference i believe its said to be around 5000 times more potent than heroin.

nbome should also be considered as its much more intense, though really most deaths from this comes from amateurs making sheets that just did it wrong

synthetic THC, it binds fully to cannabinoid receptors where non synthetic doesnt bind fully, incompetent manufacturing + moronic intake is probably what has caused people to die from it, its a lot more potent than non synthetic, so you could really just hand a junkie fake weed and watch him roll a regular spliff and possibly die from it on the spot

lead acetate, it tastes great, easily made by reacting lead metal with copper acetate

Cou - 20-6-2020 at 11:36

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat

lead acetate, it tastes great, easily made by reacting lead metal with copper acetate

Lead (ii) chromate is a MONSTER. Lead ion AND chromate ion, all in one. Double whammy right there! xD

UC235 - 20-6-2020 at 13:37

And yet, lead chromate is 3 orders of magnitude less soluble than Barium Sulfate which is also hypothetically toxic but is used as medical contrast without ill effects. I'm sure prolonged exposure or consumption would lead to non-trivial absorption of lead and chromate, but it wouldn't be anywhere near the top of my list.

SWIM - 20-6-2020 at 16:34

The idea that you can refine an OTC to get the poison makes it awfully easy.

Can you buy pitchblende?

Then buy a whole lot and make like Marie Curie (But try not to poison yourself)

I think this question might be meant more as what's the most toxic OTC material, not what is the most toxic ingredient in an OTC.

Next time I'm downtown I'll ask around.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEyUeCyXl1Q

G-Coupled - 20-6-2020 at 21:39

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat

nicotine (much more potent than cyanide)

I don't think that's actually true, you know. Apparently, it has quite recently been shown that Nicotine is a lot less toxic than it was believed for a long time to be.

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat

...fentanyl would be obvious candidate, notorious for having been mixed with xanax...

Although it has been found occasionally in counterfeit benzo pills, Fentanyl is far more commonly seen as a cut in Heroin, or even as a total substitute.

mackolol - 21-6-2020 at 11:12

Recently it came to my mind that most OTC and very toxic yet mutagenic and carcinogenic are toxins from black mold. It can be harvested and done almost in all conditions and is very effective.

njl - 21-6-2020 at 16:46

@mack that's fair but I'm not so sure about isolating any one compound from molds.

karlos³ - 21-6-2020 at 17:23

Well, I isolate some stuff from a partially molded substance, trying to avoid these components.
And I had it sent in for an elaborate testing, and the final hash oil was absolutely free from these contaminants.
Though we didn't know if the mold really was a certain aflatoxing producing one of course.
But we knew for certain that the produced extract was free from these compounds.

Guess it should be as easy as trying to extract these toxins, if the fungus is the right one.

But mycotoxins!
That brings me to an idea...
I don't know how often I though while picking mushrooms that I see a primo example of a "button mushroom"(you call them that in english?), with which I mean an Agaricus species, the plain ones from the super market of course.
And then I saw the bulbous base and that the velum, smell, etc... the latter is so typical...

But anyways!
What I want to say is, that they must be one of the most OTC poisons.
The death caps.
I read, that many victims of them said, even on their deathbed, that the fungal meal tasted great... how horrible!
Your eyes already deeply yellow from liver failure, and the only reminiscence of your deathly failure is a great taste!

Now with that in mind, I wonder how the hemlock mug of Sokrates tasted?
Was it likewise good, or horribly bitter, or what?
I guess he could've told, did no research on that...
And honestly, I don't care.

Xanax - 16-8-2020 at 09:19

Once I bought a lot of Jequerety beans (Abrus precatorius) and extracted the abrin from it. I gott pretty much of the abrin (and ricin, which I also extracted from (Ricinus communis).

I got a little of it in me, and fellt fever, bloody vomiting and blood in the feaces. But I survaided, and got healthy again.

The anlyze of the material was enougth to kill tousends of people. Abrin is 10-100 more times stronger than ricin.

But it was found by the police in my apartment, along with some radioactive stuff.

But I was freed from crime against some chemical weapons law. The abrin was classed as a biological weapen for some reason, and I was free from that point too.

Deadly dose for abrin is about 0,1 mg

JJay - 16-8-2020 at 10:05

Mercuric acetate is pretty toxic.

Quote: Originally posted by karlos³

Now with that in mind, I wonder how the hemlock mug of Sokrates tasted?
Was it likewise good, or horribly bitter, or what?
I guess he could've told, did no research on that...
And honestly, I don't care.

The poisonous chemical in hemlock is coniine. It's actually quite toxic. You could probably steam distill it out of poison hemlock. Coniine a bit less toxic than fentanyl, which is not OTC. It's a bit more toxic than ricin.

Strychnine is the most toxic chemical I'm seeing from a quick look. I believe you can purchase it as a varmint poison.

JJay - 16-8-2020 at 10:07

Quote: Originally posted by Xanax

Once I bought a lot of Jequerety beans (Abrus precatorius) and extracted the abrin from it. I gott pretty much of the abrin (and ricin, which I also extracted from (Ricinus communis).

I got a little of it in me, and fellt fever, bloody vomiting and blood in the feaces. But I survaided, and got healthy again.

The anlyze of the material was enougth to kill tousends of people. Abrin is 10-100 more times stronger than ricin.

But it was found by the police in my apartment, along with some radioactive stuff.

But I was freed from crime against some chemical weapons law. The abrin was classed as a biological weapen for some reason, and I was free from that point too.

Deadly dose for abrin is about 0,1 mg

Oh, I didn't see that... that's extremely toxic.

karlos³ - 16-8-2020 at 11:10

I actually have done bioassays with the strychnine containing nuts, in stimulating doses.
It was actually quite nice and concentration and performance enhancing.

OldNubbins - 16-8-2020 at 11:35

Quote: Originally posted by karlos³

I actually have done bioassays with the strychnine containing nuts, in stimulating doses.
It was actually quite nice and concentration and performance enhancing.

I find it fascinating about many poisons and toxins don't necessarily become such until a certain dosage threshold. Botulinum toxin is the most poisonous substance known, yet in sub-nanogram/kg doses, it is therapeutic. Go scuba diving deep enough with the wrong mix of air and you can get oxygen or nitrogen narcosis. My dive instructor told an amusing story of his experience with nitrogen narcosis where he decided to take out his regulator and try to give air to a submerged log. His dive partner had to intervene.

zed - 24-8-2020 at 08:04

Jequerety beans, used to be as common as dirt. Seeing a string of the red and black beans, at a garage sale or a thrift store, was an ordinary event. Cheap Native jewelry. I haven't seen any lately, but I haven't been looking.

Still, I'm imagining that the beans are less commonplace in modern times. Replaced by plastic beads. And perhaps more commonly recognized, as being poisonous.

macckone - 24-8-2020 at 08:26

Not exactly OTC but definitely highly toxic - batrachotoxin

https://www.chemistryworld.com/podcasts/batrachotoxin/7073.a...

zed - 24-8-2020 at 09:13

Batrachotoxin? Yup! Kinda like Paralytic Shellfish Toxin. Rogue Dinoflagellates make the stuff. Shell fish chow-down on the Dinoflagellates, and accumulate the toxin.

Vertebrates exposed either to high loads of Dinoflagellates, or a Lucious meal of shellfish, succumb to the poison.

In my neck of the woods, you don't even think about eating fresh shellfish, in a month without an "R".

In fact, if you had the means to refine the toxin, right now, might be a Primo time to harvest shellfish.

Some years, the accumulation of toxin becomes so severe, that it takes years for local shellfish to purge themselves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paralytic_shellfish_poisoning

You may recall, that George Bush Senior, then a CIA man, was quizzed by Congress, about a dart-gun pistol, that utilized this toxin. His lawyers advice? If they ask you, you have to answer, but under NO circumstances, will you touch or hold that weapon. Such a photo-op, will poison your career!

[Edited on 24-8-2020 by zed]

karlos³ - 24-8-2020 at 10:55

Sorry for OT, but:
Batrachotoxine?
That reminds me of another toxin found in frogs, not really OTC though, as while the species of poison dart frogs can be bought, they don't produce it anymore in captivity due to their diet.
I just mention it, because the molecule is quite interesting, it even contains a chlorine atom which is very unusual.
Epibatidine, that was the name of the stuff!
I think its real source isn't the frog itself but a certain mite which is part of his diet, which is the reason why they loose their toxicity in captive.

macckone - 24-8-2020 at 15:42

karlos,
That is mentioned in the link I posted.
For batrachotoxin, the frogs as well as two types of birds eat the beetle.
The beetle isn't thought to produce the toxin itself either.
It is thought to be accumulated from something the beetles eat.

Only maitotoxin and botulinium toxin are more potent than batrachotoxin.
Maitotoxin is the one zed was referring to in shellfish.

Tsjerk - 26-8-2020 at 04:42

My Ricinus plants are doing well! There are a couple hundred more beans maturing on the two plants I have.

I will leave the isolation of the ricin for what it is, I'm just storing the beans in the fridge to plant next year. The plants won't survive the winter outside.

Normally Ricinus wouldn't form mature beans in the Dutch climate, but I planted them inside in December and put them outside in April.

karlos³ - 26-8-2020 at 05:42

Very cool!
Somehow the ~200-300 seeds from last year got lost all, but somehow one little seedling turned up in a pot that was inside over the winter, and thats all this year.
Someone must have thrown them away, or lost them somewhere, or more likely, put them where they don't belong and they will not be found until the growing season is over.
I wanted them to start early too, and then directly in the open soil so they can get really huge.
Well, that tiny little seedling came two months ago, and is thanks to the tiny pot he sprung to life in, still not even 30cm high, so that is ricinus for me this growing season

When you plant already in december, how large do your ricinus trees get then?
The plants sown in spring can already easily, given good soil and enough room for the roots, reach 3m easily, or a lot more, and that all in just a single season, but you've seen this already of course.
I read they are able to reach 6m in just 3-4 months, when their growing condition are ideal

So, how about yours, with such an early start they must get close to that, no?

By the way, the plants from last year I had, they were planted in march or so, and they still formed beans, I left them to dry by themself with the first cold nights.
The beans are not as big as the seeds you can buy, but its just a little bit, not much of a difference.
They will start to flower anyway at the same time, no matter when they got planted, what is more important is that they have enough time to get ripe in autumn.

Tsjerk - 26-8-2020 at 06:03

My plants are in pots on my roof terrace , so the growth is limited by the size of the pot, I don't have a garden. The bigger plant is in a 40 liter pot, and got around 1,5 meter in height. The second one is in a 10 liter pot and got to about a meter.

Always fascinating to see plants become about as big as their root system. I have seen only one exception now, my Passiflora caerulea; it is in a half liter pot but has grown about 7 meters of shoots. It is growing inside and is even growing two pieces of fruit now. I took a cutting which is now growing in a 50 ml pot... I'm curious how large it will grow. Passiflora seems quite resistant to drying out.

karlos³ - 26-8-2020 at 22:30

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk

Always fascinating to see plants become about as big as their root system. I have seen only one exception now, my Passiflora caerulea; it is in a half liter pot but has grown about 7 meters of shoots. It is growing inside and is even growing two pieces of fruit now. I took a cutting which is now growing in a 50 ml pot... I'm curious how large it will grow. Passiflora seems quite resistant to drying out.

Gratulations to the fruits, indoor even

Must be southern windows I assume?

But yes, I've seen the same with another climbing plant, but it was long ago now.
It was an Argyreia nervosa, I've grown from the well known seeds, and it was her second year.
The first year, they remain a short plant, albeit with large leaves.
And in her second summer, I've put he, I kr in the garden, in the ~2-3l pot she was in.
Now, knowing that plant, I should have expected that, but I thought with that little pot it wouldn't be that bad.
In the second year, the little shrub from the first year will transform into a climbing plant and I knew this.
But nobody would have expected the little shrub of like 40, maybe 50cm, to start stretching that much over the course of just a few weeks(I think).
We measured it, the main strunk got 4m long and then started to wrap around the little cherry tree.
And she also sprouted several secondary ranks up to 0,5m, in my memories it was almost explosion like how much got out of this little pot!
She was wrapped so tight around the cherry tree and got so huge, it was her death sentence sadly.
Couldn't get her down from there, and even if, there was nowhere enough place for that furry plantmonster

I think the time-release fertiliser was at fault or something, or maybe thats just normal for this species, I don't know, never had one of them again sadly.
It was a cool plant, with soft and furry leaves, looking really good, but I haven't expected her to turn into audrey II over the course of a hot and humid summer

So, ricinus trees aren't the only plants who surprise with their growth, but definitely among the top 3.
But enough OT for now.

Back to the topic: wolfsbane!
Beautiful native plant, and one of the most toxic ones.
It is suspected the germanic ancestors have used them to make poison arrows with for hunting.
But couldn't be confirmed yet.
Their concentration of aconitine is definitely enough to sort them among the most toxic compounds which are OTC.
As far as I know, aconitine is not hard to extract, and with its potency, crude extractions are effective enough already(to hunt of course!).
Just had a look at a patent from the 20's, didn't remembered how strong that stuff was already as plant matter

Tsjerk - 27-8-2020 at 00:02

I had an Aconitum doing great behind the same window on the south as the Passiflora, but I probably over watered it as it started to rot.

Apparently aconitine is easily extracted with an aqueous solution of tartaric acid.

Very OTC, as I bought the plant at the local garden centre.

Edit: lovely looking molecule as well!

[Edited on 27-8-2020 by Tsjerk]

dextro88 - 15-9-2020 at 13:45

Even more OTC, colect a thousands of apple seeds, crush them and extract your cyanide xd im
amased noone mention this

I also see a lot of drugs mentioned, probably a DOX series overdose or NBOMES are very bad way to die, imagine overdosing on one of these, or the fentalogues in the 10000+ potency of morphine, a few ug can be enough.

[Edited on 15-9-2020 by dextro88]

garphield - 17-9-2020 at 12:17

in terms of what has the lowest ld50 definitely americium from smoke detectors, however each one will only have a few hundred ng so u wouldnt be able to do much

karlos³ - 17-9-2020 at 17:52

Quote: Originally posted by garphield

in terms of what has the lowest ld50 definitely americium from smoke detectors, however each one will only have a few hundred ng so u wouldnt be able to do much

Oh yeah, reminds me of the "nuclear boy scout", and the horrible looking face of him in this picture: https://stillunfold.com/public/upload/post_thumb/Story_of_Ra...

Corrosive Joeseph - 17-9-2020 at 19:14

Quote: Originally posted by karlos³

Oh yeah, reminds me of the "nuclear boy scout", and the horrible looking face of him in this picture

Those sores on his face are a side-effect of all the meth he was on!
Just couldn't leave himself alone!

/CJ

njl - 18-9-2020 at 08:48

Quote: Originally posted by dextro88

Even more OTC, colect a thousands of apple seeds, crush them and extract your cyanide xd im
amased noone mention this

There are far better ways to get cyanide and none of the other things you mentioned are OTC

TheMrbunGee - 1-2-2021 at 05:30

Hey hear me out. What about methanol? OK, one cannot die from milligrams of methanol, but One could replace the ethanol with methanol in some alcoholic brew, given, that the person is willing to drink. 10ml can make one blind and as little as 15ml could kill. Easy in so many ways.

Fyndium - 2-2-2021 at 01:23

Methanol is indeed an insidious poison. It cannot be distinguished from ethanol by any practical means, but it has orders of magnitude higher lethality. If ethanol beverage is contaminated with sufficient amount, the result will be fatal because a lot of ethanol is required to displace it in metabolism.

"Fun" fact: there has been zero recorded methanol poisonings from home-distilled liquors ever. It has always been adulterated with added methanol, either unknowingly or accidentally. Tired of noting people on this myth when they always jump on their back feet when talking about home distilling. Not an actual form of chemophobia, but some false myths die hard.

njl - 2-2-2021 at 06:50

I don't really follow Fyndium. Sounds like their point stands, if you don't know what you're doing you could very easily poison yourself.

rockyit98 - 2-2-2021 at 07:09

methanol 10mL will do the trick. that's why often mix with bitter chemicals.
Ethylene glycol is moderately toxic, with an oral LD50 = 786 mg/kg for humans. The major danger is due to its sweet taste hence adding of bitter flavoring (denatonium benzoate) to antifreeze.

unionised - 2-2-2021 at 09:45

Quote: Originally posted by Fyndium

It cannot be distinguished from ethanol by any practical means

I find the fact that methanol tastes sweet to be practical in some circumstances but I would probably measure the boiling point to be sure.
There are certainly practical means to distinguish them.

Fyndium - 2-2-2021 at 12:10

Quote: Originally posted by njl

I don't really follow Fyndium. Sounds like their point stands, if you don't know what you're doing you could very easily poison yourself.

Methanol is not formed in such quantities in fermentation it would cause issues. When fractionating ethanol, the very first distillates contain a lot of impurities, which methanol forms minority, and if this stuff is draught as is, it could cause issues, but if it is mixed even with a little of further distillates, the concentration of harmful compounds fall below risk. Major issue is that foreshots and heads taste so nasty I don't think anyone would want to actually drink them, people instead do a lot of work to get rid of them. There are a couple of threads of very good analysis on this matter on homedistiller forum. I collected them all and used the foreshots as rinsing solvents, and tails I used as a substitute for low quality ethanol.

If you put two bottles of alcohol, other one contains 40% of ethanol and other is same strength, but 50% of the ethanol is replaced with methanol, there is no really any practical way to tell which one contains what, unless you actually get special tools like distillation setups, etc. That's why I consider methanol to be relatively much more dangerous than many actual poisons, because one could get poisoned without any warning as it is so close of potable alcohol, but still a totally different chemical.

unionised - 2-2-2021 at 14:11

Quote: Originally posted by Fyndium

If you put two bottles of alcohol, other one contains 40% of ethanol and other is same strength, but 50% of the ethanol is replaced with methanol...

... then someone is actively trying to kill you or , at best, really doesn't care if they kill you or not.
That's possible, but in that case, you probably won't last long anyway.

Fyndium - 4-2-2021 at 00:57

But you ain't gonna drink bleach or paint thinner, or if you were, you'd just spit it out the second you taste it.

There are cases of accidental or careless poisonings when people have draught un- or mislabeled bottles. There's a case where a guy had put windshield washing fluid in an old alcohol bottle and peeled off all labels, and someone happened to break into his car, took the bottle and drank it. Thief end up dead, guy end up in court. Found not guilty, though, saved by peeling off labels.

Perhaps the most common is by using different car products as substitute alcohol. Some ethanol based stuff just tastes very gross, but is cheap and gets you wasted af if your stomach can handle it. Reason why EU pulled methanol from consumer products.

IrishJeremy - 16-4-2021 at 12:46

Acetaminophen. While it's not fatal in mg amounts, ten grams given on a few occasions, since it's toxicity depends on the individual. It's absolutely innocuous to buy hundreds of tablets, nobody will take notice. If you extract it from the pills and purify it, it's tasteless. It could easily be cooked in a meal without notice. When the toxicology is done it will look like the thousands of other accidental or intentional deaths due to it every year. Last time I looked at the stats, it killed more people every year than prescription narcotics. It's also a terrible, painful death due to liver failure. Truly an awful thing to be poisoned with.

digga - 16-4-2021 at 15:32

The toxic effects of acetaminophen are amplified by ethanol. If you imbibe, don't keep it around.

Fyndium - 17-4-2021 at 00:09

Considering that getting wasted and curing the hangover with some painkillers is pretty much the routine for majority of the human race and yet most of them survive year after year without noticeable health effects, I wouldn't consider minor use a risk. I have always avoided painkillers though when I have been under alcohol influence.

rockyit98 - 17-4-2021 at 10:44

grapefruit with pharmaceuticals. can be lethal in some cases.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapefruit%E2%80%93drug_interactions

BauArf56 - 18-4-2021 at 04:50

10% hydrofluoric acid is sometimes sold as rust remover, so if one would spill some on the skin could die quite easily. I also noticed that those gold test bottles contain potassium dichromate (and chromium trioxide)!

draculic acid69 - 18-4-2021 at 05:17

Quote: Originally posted by IrishJeremy

Acetaminophen. While it's not fatal in mg amounts, ten grams given on a few occasions, since it's toxicity depends on the individual. It's absolutely innocuous to buy hundreds of tablets, nobody will take notice. If you extract it from the pills and purify it, it's tasteless. It could easily be cooked in a meal without notice. When the toxicology is done it will look like the thousands of other accidental or intentional deaths due to it every year. Last time I looked at the stats, it killed more people every year than prescription narcotics. It's also a terrible, painful death due to liver failure. Truly an awful thing to be poisoned with.

I've heard of really stupid people taking 100 codeine and acetaminophen
and while they were hospitalized these idiots still lived. A one-off
large dose probably won't be fatal

Praxichys - 20-4-2021 at 05:43

There are many varieties of common mushrooms rich in amatoxins, some as seemingly innocent as the little brown ones on your lawn:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pholiotina_rugosa

Panache - 29-4-2021 at 23:38

I am pleased the old chestnut answer of 'l e ad..travelling at 3637mps is prett y lethal hehe' has not been trotted out.

Fyndium - 30-4-2021 at 02:23

Well, if we escalate things, any matter can be considered hazardous if it were to come in contact with antimatter. The mere rest mass energy is about 20 megatons per kg of useful energy, rest of the total of 50MT apparently dissipates as neutrinos.

njl - 30-4-2021 at 04:35

We need a stickied thread on OTC antimatter ASAP

Fyndium - 30-4-2021 at 09:59

I vehemently agree.

rockyit98 - 30-4-2021 at 11:20

Kidney bean wiki says
Red kidney beans contain relatively high amounts of phytohemagglutinin, and thus are more toxic than most other bean varieties if not pre-soaked and subsequently heated to the boiling point for at least 10 minutes. The US Food and Drug Administration recommends boiling for 30 minutes to ensure they reach a sufficient temperature long enough to completely destroy the toxin.[2] Cooking at the lower temperature of 80 °C (176 °F), such as in a slow cooker, can increase this danger and raise the toxin concentration up to fivefold.[3] Canned red kidney beans, though, are safe to use immediately, as they are cooked prior to being shipped. As few as five raw beans or a single undercooked kidney bean can cause severe nausea, diarrhea, vomiting, and abdominal pains.

Fyndium - 30-4-2021 at 14:56

The major effect of bean toxicity is prominent flatulence. Recovery occurs within four or five hours of onset, usually without the need for any medical intervention.

Xanax - 16-5-2021 at 13:12

Quote: Originally posted by BauArf56

10% hydrofluoric acid is sometimes sold as rust remover, so if one would spill some on the skin could die quite easily. I also noticed that those gold test bottles contain potassium dichromate (and chromium trioxide)!

When I worked at a pharmacy in the 90-ies chromium trioxide was something you should put in your nose when nosebleeding...

clearly_not_atara - 16-5-2021 at 13:20

Quote: Originally posted by BauArf56

1%, not 10%

Quote: Originally posted by Fyndium

The major effect of bean toxicity is prominent flatulence. Recovery occurs within four or five hours of onset, usually without the need for any medical intervention.

Maybe if you only buy canned beans. Raw beans are in fact very toxic as the previous poster said, due to phytohaemagglutinins. Beans must be boiled (not merely heated) for at least ten minutes in order to be safe to consume, although, for taste reasons, most people would cook them longer.

[Edited on 16-5-2021 by clearly_not_atara]

Opylation - 16-5-2021 at 14:13

Idk if found easily in nature counts for over the counter, but digitoxin found in fox glove (digitalis) is extremely deadly. I think the ld/50 is like 100ug/kg. If memory serves me right I think it has the added bonus of not being easily detected or breaking down quickly. I could be remembering incorrectly though

Edit: looks like I was wrong. The amount I listed above is the lower end toxic dose. Lethal dose is 20-50 times the maintenance dose which is a few milligrams

[Edited on 16-5-2021 by Opylation]

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